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Switzerland's voters reject basic income plan

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Taluntain, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I'm really not sure how I feel about this. There are so many variables to take into account that even where basic income is being tested on a limited basis, one country's implementation varies significantly from another's. While the concept sounds appealing, there are definitely more questions than answers at this point. And I can't help but feel that this is something that's impossible to effectively test unless it was permanently implemented country-wide, because anything less would not provide a valid test result because people will definitely behave differently when only part of a limited-time test group vs. knowing that they'd actually have this income provided for life.
     
  2. Keneth Gems: 27/31
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    From my experience, Swiss people form a very cohesive group on most matters and there are very few of these new-agey liberal ideas being widely supported by the general populace.

    As far as I'm concerned, it sounds like a horrible plan, but I'm considerably biased when it comes to social benefits. I will fully support a plan to ensure a decent pay for any hard-working person, but I am vehemently opposed to granting any significant social benefits to people who don't work. Effort should be put into making people useful, not allowing them to leech resources. Equality for the sake of equality is garbage. We have more than enough coddled, entitled people in first world already, breeding yet another generation of these wankers is the last thing we should be doing.
     
  3. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    It sounds like a good plan to reject it. Unless they want to attract any still free roaming Syrians or other immigrants, who'd love to live there and do nothing while getting a good pay.

    A higher base income like that will also drive the minimum wages up. Or no-one will want to do the low paying jobs anymore, because they'd get more money by just staying at home.

    Also 2500 swiss franc is outrageous. That's like twice the minimum income in Belgium. And Switserland is not that expensive to live anymore. It used to be, but now it's maybe a little more expensive than Germany or some other € countries.
     
  4. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I don't understand how anyone who understands "human nature" could think that this would be a good idea.
     
  5. Arkite

    Arkite Crash or crash through Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    It's early days, but basically with the rise of the robots coming, it isn't a question of if, but when many, many low/no skilled jobs are going to be gone for good. This presents a global problem of what to do with the millions of people who had those jobs. Traditionally they'd just go onto unemployment benefits/welfare while they are looking for work, but the idea of that was to get a fired factory worker into another factory job, if there are no other low/no skilled jobs to be had, that doesn't work.

    The other part of it is that as most Western nations have requirements job seekers have to meet to qualify for an unemployment benefit/payment, and in some cases this (job finding) industry requires billions of government spending, to keep case managers employed to keep job seekers looking for work, with the relevant bureaucracy overseeing the entire thing. That whole industry falls down when case manager Dave doesn't have any low/no skilled jobs for job seeker Max, as those jobs have been automated. So if there are no jobs for Max, and he can't get an unemployment benefit, the government says well of course we'll abolish the spending going to employment agencies if there aren't any jobs for the people making use of those agencies. The problem then is those millions of people with no employment prospects and no unemployment payments, are essentially cast adrift.

    The most basic reasoning behind a basic income is that you take the money you were spending on various bureaucracies and employment agencies and give that directly to people without work. Depending on the country the number varies greatly, but you're looking at an average of about 15-20% of the workforce working right now in low/no skill jobs. If those many millions of people, in jobs that are going to be gone, are without the money for clothing and shelter and have no alternatives, we'll have a pretty dire situation. Crime and homelessness would skyrocket, economies of entire regions (mining town/city would be a good example) would collapse without the exchange of goods and trades and without tax revenues governments rely on, there'd be no services, health and sanitation decline, diseases and slums pop up, etc etc.

    It's a problem that no country will be able to avoid, we're starting to see the early stages of it in elevated youth unemployment levels around the world, where entry level and low skilled jobs that were there 10/20/30 years ago just aren't there anymore.
    The issue is massive and complex, because it makes us start to ask questions about what values we want our societies to have.
     
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  6. Keneth Gems: 27/31
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    Giving everyone free money isn't a solution though. It's barely even a band-aid and it encourages the wrong kind of mentality.
     
  7. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I believe Arkite has summed up my position really well. Low paying jobs are not meant to be careers. My son who is in college is spending his summer ringing a register at Wendy's. He would love to make a lot of money doing so, but he understands that any moron can do what he is doing and that is why he is making minimum wage. As a society what are we supposed to do with people who are either too lazy, too ignorant, or somehow made themselves unable to survive? I admit to not having the answer, but I am opposed to giving them my money through taxation.
     
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    And yet, the majority of people ringing registers at Wendy's are NOT teenagers, they are adults with families. Always have been, always will be. The fact is that most people do not have the resources to train for skilled jobs, and most jobs that don't require special skills still demand college degrees.
     

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