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The Best Sneak Attack

Discussion in 'Icewind Dale 2' started by Fly2tHeSkY, Apr 15, 2006.

  1. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    Actually, Raptor, I'm almost doing what you describe regarding 2 rogues with my test party for my mod. I only have one true mod, but my lead tank is actually a Ftr X/ Rogue 3 (named Theena).

    She was going to be a Ftr X/Rog 2, but I decided that the extra rogue level would be good for the +1 sneak attack die and for one last chance to take a LOT of talking skills, since this PC is my party's talker as well. And I cannot complain about her tanking prowess, in spite of having 3 rogue levels mixed in.

    Back to the 2 rogues ...

    I use Theena and my party's pure rogue, a halfling named Atika, to do sneak attacks. Sure, Theena only gets 2d6 of SA dice, but she's pretty much of a full bore tank as well with high STR and using the best available long or bastard sword available at the time. OTOH, Atika is using a +3 freezing Short Sword and is a truly hellish sneak attacker. Theena will make the first attack and then Atika will make her attack just after Theena's attack. Add in my pure ranger-archer and I have a stealthy trio who truly does wreak havoc on anything that gets in their way.
     
  2. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    I've just tried this build: NE Cleric of Bane 1 Barbarian 1 Rogue X. 12 WIS, max STR and greater spell focus enchantment to take advantage of 3 'commands' per day. This character wields a two hander, can rage to boost STR. It's hide, sneak attack, cast spell, sneak attack. Repeat and rinse. Quite enjoyable and effective since on his own he can get a maximum of 4 sneak attacks in a row (that's without items, invisibility potions and the like).
     
  3. Sir Rechet

    Sir Rechet I speak maths and logic, not stupid Veteran

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    Multiclassing in general:
    2e rules made multi/dualclassing a tad bit too good, IMHO. Class restrictions were meant to keep them at balance but it was way too easy to get around them by multiclassing. Take BG2's Jaheira, for example. A plain Druid with her 1 attack/round with rather poor weapon selection wouldn't make anyone consider one for physical combat, while a fighter/druid just owns. Working in tandem with my fighter/mage protagonist, both Improved Hasted, there usually wasn't a single enemy standing by the time my mage(s) finally wound up their Delayed Blast Fireball. (They had to Breach/Greater Malison/True See during the first round of combat anyway, in order to make any sort of offensive action possible in the first place.)

    In 3e, those restrictions are lifted, but now you won't net extra 9+ levels in a "side" class practically for free anymore. Instead, now it's free-for-all menu of low-level perks from filling a main class with, exp penalties notwithstanding.

    Rogues & backstab in general:
    As noted, hit points were generally way lower in 2e. The best a mage could hope for was around 60 by level 10, and never much more than that. A decent backstab was usually more than enough to overcome such figures. It ain't much more by level 10 now either, but it just keeps going on from there.

    The relative ease of traps & locks is another issue, there still isn't a need for a full-time rogue to get around. Not quite sure if it would enhance the gameplay in any way even if traps were lethal, nigh-impossible to find and disarm and even most mundane locks were made of triple-enforced titanium alloy enhanced with powerful runes of protection. It would most likely be just annoying, methinks.

    Rogues in IWD2:
    Of the D&D-based games I've played, IWD2 stands as a distinct winner when it comes to the scale of battles. Not so much in toughness, necessarily, but in the sheer amount of red circles that get thrown at you. It no longer puts as big of a dent on the enemy group if you manage to disable their mage right away - mages #2, #3 and #4 are still happily throwing stuff at you while their horde of bodyguards swarm you in. Normal mode can be duked out with the standard plate & shield just as well as someone with leather & DEX, but warriors high BAB and hence, number of attacks, is a favorable option. Still, both pale in comparison to a single fireball, easily catching 10+ targets in way too many occasions to mention.

    HOF mode makes it even more rediculous. Something's obviously amiss when a lvl 17 rogue can't backstab a lousy Targos goblin to death. Not to mention, if the said rogue would try such a thing, he'd be overwhelmed in a matter of seconds. That is, unless he happens to be a deep gnome of some sort, filled to gills with all sorts of defensive buffs. The poor warrior classes (the plate & shield stereotype) don't even have this luxury, all they got is their hit points - and that isn't much of a help when there's a constant 100+ damage per round incoming.

    If, and this is a BIG if, a rogue can keep himself off from the mob's aggro list, scoring huge sneak attacks to every mob in sight is still an enticing prospect, quite possibly bridging the gap between his and standard-issue fighter's damage output. However, that's assuming someone else can take the heat in the meanwhile (implying a high-AC decoy), and still nothing a Joe the Average Mage couldn't do better with the same ol' fireball he learned at character level 5. Winding up a Mass Dominate would need to be put on a logarithmic scale to be even seen in the charts in terms of usefullness in such situations.

    So, in essence, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rogue class. It's just that IWD2 keeps throwing such large hordes at you that anyone's efficiency against just one target has next to nil relevance. Taking on multiple enemies simultaneously is key, and that's exactly where high-level spellcasters are strongest.
     
  4. Morthond Gems: 3/31
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    There's no doubt that IWD2 maybe shows the Rogue's flaws a little more, but I think it's fundamentally an issue with the 3E system. To name another, D&D Online uses 3.5E rules, and the pure rogue is probably the LEAST used/wanted class in the game, it just doesn't bring enough to the table to make it worth taking, for the very same reasons as people have listed in this topic.

    (I miss my F/M/T :( )
     
  5. DrEm314 Gems: 2/31
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    This will seem a bit dated, but it's possible to create a high armor character with a few slots of mirror image. Conjurer specialization can be taken safely since this character won't be nuking.

    I've found a way to sneak attack is to use stunning attack, hide, then open with a stunning strike. If the stun connects, switching to bladed weapons allows for a brief chain of guaranteed sneak attacks.

    Here's a tiefling rogue with 12d6 of Sneak attack damage. Unfortunately, this build almost requires weapon finesse, so big weapons can't be used. But it can avoid most hits with it's armor class:
    Character Details:

    Tiefling
    2 Monk
    2 Dreadmaster
    3 Wizard (Conjurer)
    23 Rogue

    Str 10
    Dex 20+7+5-2=30 (LvL+Slipper-Pot Transc)
    Con 16
    Int 14
    Wis 17+5+4+4=30 (Evergy God+Pot Transc+Banite)
    Cha 1

    Armor Class Statistics
    10 - Base
    1 - Dodge Feat
    10 - Dex
    10 - Wis
    5 - Expertise
    11 - Gear (Brazen/Indominable Bands 5, 3 Swing from Mast (HoF), 3 Sunfire Talisman)
    21 - Spells (Shield 7, Ghost Armor 5, Bark skin 5, Haste 4)
    2 - Bard song

    Armor: 70, 68 without Bard Song
     
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