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Why so weak and powerless?

Discussion in 'Planescape: Torment (Classic)' started by vitamin, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. vitamin Gems: 2/31
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    It looks like I solved all quest in Sigil (apart from finding Ravel) and decided to try out my fighting skills. So the Modron Maze seemed to be a good place for that kind of test. And initially (first two levels) were quite easy indeed. But on the other hand, not too rewarding so I changed level to hard. And it turned out to be way too much for me. I mean, whenever there are two or three High Threat Constructs in the chamber, at least one of my characters gets killed (mostly Annah and Dak'kon but TNO isn't much better). Morte is looking fairly good (still his defensive skills seem to be better than attacking) and Ignus stays behind but his spells are pretty much useless (not to mention a simple fact, that I just don't have time to use them).

    Anyway, I thought that maybe I'd check some other place. Of course, UderSigil was my obvious choice. And again, first encounter with some creatures (Larwal Worms IIRC) results in my total fail. This time I even tried to use some other tactics (Annah in stealth mode at front, so that I could use Ignus's spells at last) but that didn't work either.


    And now I just don't know whether it's just too soon to explore these two locations or I'm simply a poor player? Could you guys give me some clues please?


    EDIT:
    As I'm mostly concerned about TNO and his weakness, here're his current stats and equipment:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  2. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    There's nothing you're doing wrong, per se. As we mentioned before in another thread, the game rewards a smooth talker better than a strong fighter. However, that does mean that if you put all your points in the INT/WIS/CHA options, you're not going to be a strong fighter due to lack of STR and CON.

    I had a hard time of it too, to fight with a similarly attributed TNO in the Modron maze or Undersigil.
     
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  3. kmonster Gems: 24/31
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    It's normal that you have trouble doing those fights at such low level and so badly equipped, especially with con so low.
    You can fight the easy Modron Maze levels as often as you want to get loot and money to buy better equipment like tattoos for TNO, Dak'kon and Annah.

    For increased combat performance you can cast buffs like strength (or Dak'kon's improved version of this spell) at your party members.
    Having 5 proficiency points in the weapon used yields a huge bonus.
    In Undersigil you can try the cloudkill spell.

    Those areas are optional. You can do the quests which don't require fighting first and return when you've gained some XP and are better equipped are ignore them (although there are 2 nice encounters on the hardest level in the Modron Maze).
     
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  4. SlickRCBD Gems: 23/31
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    Indeed, your low stats are part of it. The Prime Attribute of a 2nd edition AD&D (and 1st) Fighter is Strength. Constitution and Dexterity are the secondary attributes and almost as important. All others are usually dump stats.
    Strength affects your ability to hit enemies and how much damage you do. Constitution gives you bonus hit points, and only a fighter gives you benefits for more than 16 CON. Dexterity gives you a bonus to AC making you far less likely to take damage. It also affects your hit rates with ranged weapons.
    You only get bonuses for high stats in each one when they get over 15.

    Here's a copy/paste of a PDF I found of my old PHB (not sure of the legality as I didn't do the format-shift myself, but I wanted a searchable copy. I do have the actual hardcover book).
    The other three stats don't do anything for a fighter's prowess in combat if you go purely by the rules, but our DM enforced that a fighter with 11 INT and 12 WIS would fight a lot smarter than a fighter with 5 INT.and 7 WIS.
     
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  5. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Tactics. You need to see what you have available to damage the particular opponent and what spells will be the most helpful in that fight.

    I think you blew your chance to significantly boost your strength (and fighting ability) -- you get specialization bonuses at levels 7 and 12. Those bonuses will take you from a strength of 18 directly to 19. All other strength increases take you through the 'exceptional strength' ranks (and there's five of them).

    Slick: That list is not entirely accurate for Planescape: Torment. For example, wisdom gives an experience point bonus in Torment. Having a high wisdom has distinct advantages as you can get up to a +35% bonus in XP earned. That said, there are more places to gain wisdom in the game than any other attribute. Intelligence and charisma will open up dialog options that lead to huge XP bonuses and attribute gains.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  6. vitamin Gems: 2/31
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    Ok, so it seems that my low STR, CON and DEX are the main reason for being so ineffective in combat. But to increase them I'd need either EXP or some enchanted items. And here's the problem - I won't get more EXP or find/buy new stuff without fighting. There are only three places I can go now - Ravel's Maze, Modron Maze or UnderSigil.

    And one more thing regarding shops - I have a strange feeling that all merchants have fixed stock in this game - am I right?

    Also as it comes to TNO and weapon proficiencies - could you please explain me why I cannot train more in other weapons?

    As of Ignus and spells - so far I tried only his two spells: 'Cloudkill' and 'Fire & Ice' and found the later being more effective. I'm not sure why everyone is recommending me Cloudkill actually?


    EDIT:
    @T2Bruno - tactics is important of course but only when you have time for it. When fighting in Modron Maze you can do nothing about it. Only pure power is what matters most, I'm afraid. Luckily, things look much better in UnderSigil. I just managed to kill all five Larwal Worms and some Trelons there. The key for being successful there is to pick them up one by one, using Morte as a bait. But yet, it's a kind of shame that both Dak'kon and Annah are just standing behind doing nothing.

    As it comes to "blowing my chance to boost STR" - are you sure I've already failed? I haven't reached 12th level yet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  7. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Ravel's Maze will give you several stat bonuses and quite a bit of xp, if you choose the right options (your high non-combat stats will ensure that they're at least available). It's also the only way to go that actually progresses the story.

    Shops do have a fixed inventory, as far as I remember.

    I assume that the profiency thing you're mentioning is that you can't train any further? I'm not so certain about this, as it has been a while since I played the game, but I think that there are specific persons that can train you, but each also has a limit to which he can train you. That, or you need to have gotten the bonuses at 7 and 12 to be able to train higher.

    Luring enemies out one by one is a good tactic that will make combat a lot easier for you. You could also try to have Annah sneak around and backstab some monsters to soften them up already. The downside is of course that if there's more than one, you'll have a fight on your hand anyway. Or do backstab, hurry around a corner, hide in shadows again, then backstab again.

    You missed your chance for the strength because your STR is too low at the moment to be boosted by the STR boost that fighters get at lvl 7 and 12 to step over straight from 18 STR to 19 STR. If you just put points in STR at level up, you'll have to go from 18 to 18/50, 18/75, 18/90 and 18/99 to get to 19.
     
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  8. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Once an enemy starts to attack a character it will generally, and stupidly, continue to attack that character. Some enemies target the weakest character -- who can simply run around in circles while the rest of party beats the enemy into oblivion.

    A common tactic -- have Morte engage the enemy first. He has a lot damage resistances and is difficult to hit. The rest of the party can then whack away. Also, only target one enemy at a time -- everyone hits that particular bad guy. Two enemies at 50% strength hit twice as often as one enemy at 100% strength -- kill one, then move on to the next. Divide and conquer is a recipe for failure.

    Spells are your friends -- especially buffing spells. Buffing spell either increase your ability to cause damage or your ability to resist damage (either by effecting you or your enemy). Read what all the spells you have can do and memorize those that can help.

    If you don't have Falls-From-Grace, go back and get her. She has some buffing spells at lower levels but more improtantly can heal your injuries (plus she's a cool character with a lot of good dialog).

    Look at your weapons, some weapons have a minimum strength associated with them and give huge negatives if you don't meet that minimum.

    Shops -- have you done the godsmen area or talked with coaxmetal? You can use the godsmen weapons (if you join their faction) which are some of the best weapons in the game.

    You will be able to raise your strength one point per level between now and hitting level 12 -- that's three points. The red indicates a spell on you decreasing your strength so I don't know what your actual strength is, but if it's less than 15 you cannot take advantage of the level 7/12 'extra kick' (basically because it gives you six points of strength in one shot -- henkie you missed 18/00). You'll still get one point of strength, but just not the extra kick of strength you get if you hit it just right.
     
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  9. vitamin Gems: 2/31
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    @henkie - of course I'm aware that Ravel's Maze is next place to go. But I'm reluctant to go there as I want to: firstly, equip all my party members with some nice items/tattoos, and secondly, have Nordom with me.

    Regarding training in weapons - I just don't understand why I managed to get 3rd level only in hammers - what about clubs, fists, and the rest?

    Now, Annah and backstab - I must confess that I haven't figured it out yet. I just can't find such option in her special abilities. There are only three: detect traps, thieving skills, and stealth mode. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that she hasn't learnt this particular ability yet.


    @T2Bruno - thank you for the tip on those buffing spells. Since all those combat spells suck, maybe at least these other will be helpful.

    As of Fall-From-Grace - I can't have her because I want to have Nordom instead. And I'm not gonna ditch Ignus - no way.

    Regarding shops, the Godsmen and Coaxmetal - I checked all shops, joined the Godsmen (bought the Reason for TNO), and of course talked to the golem. BTW, I don't know how to get him upgrade my weapons though?

    And as we speak about weapons - I haven't noticed any minimum strength requirements when reading weapons descriptions.

    Just one more thing about that extra STR boost - it got to be my base STR stat as high as 15 at this level, yes? I mean, I cannot use any items that increase my stats to get that extra bonus - am I right? BTW, my STR is 10 (or 9) and it's in red because I'm using: Tattoo of the Warrior (+1 to STR), Tattoo of Greater Might (+2), and just bought Dread Bond (+1).
     
  10. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    You have to be trained on each level and have proficiencies available for training. There are only a couple who can train you to get **** or ***** in a weapon. Proficiency points are limited at first so you can either be good at a couple of weapons or great at one.

    No Falls-From-Grace, no healing (and you miss out on a very interesting character). You make your choices.

    Backstab -- she must be in stealth mode and attack from behind an unsuspecting target. It's automatic if you do it right. She already knows how.

    Base strength of 18 when you level at either 7th or 12th -- to be honest I don't know if you can use the leveling ability boost before taking the specialization or not.
     
  11. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    With the attributes you have there, your character is not a fighter, he's too weak and pathetic you must have noticed that if you threaten someone in dialogue they laugh at you.

    have you considered being a mage? with those stats you could be a damn fine mage, and that way you could drop Ignus and take Fall-from-Grace instead.
     
  12. vitamin Gems: 2/31
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    Regarding weapon proficiencies - is level 3rd the last one maybe? BTW, what weapon proficiency is the most rewarding, when playing as a fighter?

    @Shoshino - actually, I wanted to play as mage at the beginning but when I missed mage training before reaching level 7th, I decided to play as fighter. And to be honest, I'm glad I did that, because when I see how all Ignus's spells are ineffective during combat, I can't even imagine playing as a mage. It must be a painful and very frustrating experience.
     
  13. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    No, you can get five levels of proficiency. At 7th you can get up to four if you leveled as a fighter. If you level as a fighter at 12th you can get five levels of weapon proficience -- more is better (total cummulative bonus listed for each):

    + - you can use the weapon without penalty
    ++ - +1 to hit, +2 damage, +½ attack per round
    +++ - +3 to hit, +3 damage, +½ attack per round
    ++++ - +3 to hit, +4 damage, +½ attack per round
    +++++ - +3 to hit, +5 damage, +1 attack per round

    I'm not sure why you're at such a low level unless you haven't been doing all the side quests. There's a boatload of experience in the brothel (among other places).

    Spells are only ineffective if you don't know how to fight with them -- that takes experience.
     
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  14. vitamin Gems: 2/31
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    I'm pretty much sure I did all quests in Sigil. Moreover, I made a couple trips to UnderSigil and Modron Maze and after killing some creatures I've just reached 10th level. And as soon as I leveled up, I went for another weapon training but no one wanted to teach me. I don't get it.

    As of spells, I think I give up on them for now. Tried a few in UnderSigil but those monsters seem to be immune to magics. Only touch of cold and razor-sharp iron can soften them up.
     
  15. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    seriously, magic is more powerful than any fighter.

    go back to ragpickers square and do Mebbeth's quest, you can then become a mage yourself, practice magic and how to combine spells. Since I started playing a mage, I never look back.
     
  16. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Look at the "Weapon Proficiencies", at the top is "Unused Slots." You need some unused slots to get trained. You don't get those slots every level.
     
  17. vitamin Gems: 2/31
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    @Shoshino - I'll stick to the plan and play as fighter. It's less hassle for me as I've never played games with magics. But I can assure you that my second playthrough will be as a mage. As for now, I got Ignus and I'm learning from him how these magics work.

    @T2Bruno - Thank you for this tip. I knew I was missing something. BTW, it seems that I can get weapon training only every 3rd level. I couldn't learn anything when being at 10th and 11th but when reached 12th, one "unused slots" became available, and I could develop my weapon skills at last.
     

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