I just bought Dungeon Siege and it's really opened my eyes to how bad NWN is. Think about it, it's just plain dull. After you look past the toolset it's rubbish. I mean, take the fighting, it's SO SLOW! Compared to DS's fast pased sword hacking it's tedious and annoying. The story is pretty pants too. The graphics are awful and it dosn't run very well on anything under 1ghz. Bioware have spent so long on this game but it kills me to say, that it's AWFUL! Bioware can't make RPGs, DS and Morrowind both kick it's ass and i'm sure IWD2 will be much more fun too.

[This message has been edited by Z-Layrex (edited July 21, 2002).]

I would not say it is actually that bad. But its a point that bioware has a special style of RPG. Morrowind has much more to offer, but it's a different style of RPG it can't set beside NWN or DS. After playing NWN through 2 times I must admit I like Morrowind more, but since NWN is 3ED D&D I will never give it up. Beside it is a great game, but I allmost like evere kind of RPG, even if I prefer the Morrowind, Daggerfall or Wizardry style. It's in the eyes of the Beholder at last.

Actually I have just finished off Morag a few minutes ago. A little silly, my pally - 18 levels - leveled up right after killing Morag, enabling him to use the best weapon he ever found in the game - too late :D

On the other hand I really liked the story though near the end I missed some continuing about the hero, Nasher, Neverwinter and Aribeth - beyond the movie.

Mind that NWN is primarily a multiplayer game, and eventually it will be designed by DMs rather than a developing team. The possibilities of NWN are practically infinite, that's the potential that vastly distinguishes NWN over DS, not to mention the 3e rules. When you look for great singleplayer, wait for IWD-2, just like me ;)

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited July 21, 2002).]

Z-Layrex, what do you mean, after you look past the toolset. The toolset it really what is the most important thing about NWN (and the multiplaying) the singleplayer campaign was more a bonus.

[ September 22, 2002, 15:46: Message edited by: Uytuun ]

in my opinion neverwinter nights rocks all over dungeon siege!
I had alot more fun playing neverwinter then i did playing dungeon siege.
although i would say that both of them are awesome games :) by far the 2 best games i've played this year.
I wish the toolset worked properly on my computer cause i know i would spend many hours with that :)

Z-Layrex, from reading what you said, sounds like NWN is made for: patience, open-mindedness, and good graphic cards. Also, NWN is a lot of role-playing, and not just hack 'n slash.

All games are different. That is good because then we have variety. I doubt they are sopposed to be compared to other games that are made by totally different companies.

Z-Layrex, let me see you play Dungeon Siege on and on without being bored of the fighting. My Dungeon Siege experience was clicking on monsters and killing them. In Neverwinter Nights I have to look at a whole look of really cool animations and spell effects (Dungeon Siege practicly doesn't have this) before the monster is dead. Much more entertaining.

In Dungeon Siege you have to kill hundreds of on type of monsters before you move on to the next type and kill a few hundred of them to. Boring!. The "story" in Dungeon Siege isn't exactly the best you'll find either.

With my 1400MHz and GeForce 2 64mb I survive Neverwinter Nights in 1024*768, but Dungeon Siege had to be played in 800*600. And watch out for that fearsome bow with damage 120-430 :D. Dungeon Siege is pathetic compared to NWN, and it was made as a really bad attempt to make something better (just like Empire Earth compared to Age of Mythology).

I can't say I agree with that comparison. Now mind you, NWN has it's faults with me as well, but overall, it's a much better package than DS. Graphics wise, DS for the most part blows away poor NWN. And I hate to say that, but I think it's true. Everything looks so much more detailed, from characters to environment. The only edge NWN has are monsters and spell/lighting/particle effects. NWN scores with these, as mosters look much better and are more diverse, and the lighting is very well done.

Game play wise, DS runs much smoother. My computer runs NWN, but it can get choppy at times. DS never had that problem. However, the gameplay system is NWN reigns supreme. Dungeon Sieges combat rules aren't as good, and their character development is for the most part non existant. Their magic system is atrocious as well, and their spell effects leave *alot* to be desired. DS is repative, and while fun for a while, once the shine wears off, it's boring. Hack, slash, rinse repeat. Chug a potion hear and there, then wait around a bit while your hp regerates at a rate that makes trolls jealous. I do like some additional features of DS, though, such as a controlable party (NOTE to GAME DESIGNERS: Don't impliment henchmen, they almost always turn out badly, as even NWN shows), pack mules, etc.

Storyline: did Dungeon Siege have one? I'm not claiming NWN's is anything to write home about, but Dungeon Siege's really is lacking. The few NPC's you can interact with are poorly written. And the voice acting...my god. Everyone who talks in DS either sounds like they've consumed a bottle of gin before they went in to do their lines, or they rode the short bus to the studio that morning. NWN's isn't that great, but it's above average. And it's dialog is much better (not great, but still blows away DS's).

In all DS has some nice features and looks like a much more up to date and polished offering, but once you get passed the shine, while fun to play, it lost my interest about halfway through the game. It was just too repetative and missing key features that would have made it shine.

If I had a rather, I'd take Dungeon Sieges graphics with NWN's style of play. DS with DnD rules, spells, and mosters might have been a really good game.

Hmmmm....I personally think that NWN is good, but its no BGII. I find that NWN is hard to pick-up-and-play second time round, but I just can't place my finger on it.

Dungeon siege, however, I don't want to play it, its too Microsoft-ish (though they actually didn't make it). My brother bought it, played it, but cannot complete it as it is to hard to find out where to go (in his opinion)

I hope patches from any of the makers of NWN soon descover how to make the recommended specs actually run the game better. My computer has everything needed in the recommended, and I have to run it in its near-lowest settings.

Booo, only one henchman!

Well, I steered clear of DS, so I can't talk about that comparison. However, I do not think NWN is a bad game. The official campaign isn't the best designed scenario out there, though its decent enough in most respects.

Personally, I like not having to control all the henchmen, even if the AI does leave a lot to be desired. I also like that the combats are relatively slow paced. I like watching my guys duck, parry, etc. I also wouldn't want to play a spellcaster in the no pause multiplayer environment if the game rounds went by faster.

While I knew the engine would necessarily restrict DM creativity, the existing toolset is somewhat more restrictive than I had hoped. However, it seems that alot of people are adding custom content by leaps and bounds to address that. Its easy to use (at least, if you do their tutorials), especially if you are good at script plagiarizing. :)

I concur with Vormaerin in that I prefer the henchmens. I never was a fan of play the whole party yourself idea. Admittedly though, the henchmen ai leaves much to be desired. Still, I find it ok the way it is and certainly not terrible. Using the keyboard you can issue commands very fast if you don't like what your henchman is doing. The pathfinding on the other hand..

While NWN has its issues (as did Morrowind), some of them bothering me quite a bit, it is still fun and has great potential for further play than the SP campaign.
The plot, voice acting etc might not be spectacular but there were some very inspired side quests. Overall, I think it is a pretty good game with a lot of effort put into it. (could've used some more though :))
The problem is that they overhype the community and people can/will never find the game of their dreams when they finally come out.

I'd put DS into the same category as Diablo 2, and that's hack and slash, not roleplaying. Honestly, neither game has any real character development, and all you do is click on monsters and fight them.

NWN is the pure RPG of the bunch. Yes, it does not deliver instant gratification. It isn't supposed to. RPGs are about watching your character(s) develop over time.

As far as replayability goes, NWN reigns supreme over the bunch, especially once you get a live DM into the game. Correct, you won't find yourself playing through SP like we did with BG2, I grew somewhat bored with it by the middle of Chapter 2, but once you go into MP with a live DM, there is infinite variety and it is easily the most fun of any game mentioned here.

Which one is best is your own opinion, but don't go slamming a game until you have actually used it in all it's possible modes.

I agree with Rastor in the fact that DS is mostly a hack and slash type of game and I would rather play a game more like NWN that isn't so hack and slash.

NWN is good, mostly because of the third edition rule set and the potential it offers through the tool set and mutiplay. Conversely, single player was not nearly as good as BG2/TOB to me. Furthermore, I personally like the ability to control multiple characters and the greater interaction permitted by scripted NPCs (BG2-style). Consequently, I am looking forward to IWD2.

This is how I feel about the single player campaign in NWN at the moment:
"Bored now." (Willow in BtVS):sleep:

Dungeon Siege was great when i played it but i got bored with it before i was even finished the game.
neverwinter is a great game too and i actuelly went through 2-3 times in SP mode before really getting bored with it.
Diablo 2 isn't really in the same leage as these as I played that game for over a year without getting bored :D
but i played diablo 2 in multiplayer.
havent tried neverwinter in multiplayer yet.:)
at any rate all of them where good games as far as i'm concearned :)

I actually beat DS way before NWN came out, its the only thing I could do at the time. First I must say it was hard to carry onward with that game. The burden of fighting legions of clone goblins annoyed me to no end. But the terrain is epic in size. You really get a feel for the atmosphere weither you be in a deep dwarven cavern, scary-O-dungeon, or a lush green forest. The enviroments really are that amazing. Other than that, hack'n'slash 24-7. And be perpared. The distance between towns is something like 100 leagues the crow flies. Covering this distance is billions of enemies.

Now Neverwinter I think without a doubt is better. It offers more than any hack'n'slash. The single player, refered to as a bonus by many, isn't as good as thoughs games built for single player in mind, obviously. The toolset and DM client is what is key here.

I mean, take the fighting, it's SO SLOW!

My only complain about nwn is it is too fast! It D&D, should be slower. Should be more turn based. Great game, however.

I enjoyed the SP game immensely. I found many of the storylines very interesting.

*SPOILERS*
I liked the main storyline quite a bit. The whole creator race gig and the hints about it before you really find out what's going on were fun.

I really got a kick out of the fact that Maugrim, the guy who started the whole mess, was just a thief who played with an item of power he didn't understand, accidentally unleashed the Wailing Death, and as he lay dying was saved by Morag and turned into what he was. Just great IMO.

I also loved the story of the brothers in the Charwood castle placed outside of time by a god because of their actions.

Klauth sending giants against other dragons for their eggs in order to prolong his own life was also very interesting to me.

Aribeth being turned to the dark side by Morag and the death of Fenthick, then brought back by my actions was also quite fun for me, though I was disappointed that there was no closure of this storyline at the end.

*END SPOILERS*

The game got pretty easy at the end, but no more so than BG2 and ToB. I think the whole respawning of the henchpeople and the stone of recall were a bit too much, but you certainly don't have to rely on them, and I never used either (except the one time you have to use the Stone of Recall).

Overall I found the game and the story in the SP campaign a lot of fun.

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited July 24, 2002).]

I'm in the early parts of Chapter 2, so I have no first hand knowledge of large parts of the SP game.

This is where I find myself almost bored to tears. I like the story well enough, but how many more boxes do I have to open? :cry:
Half the times I have to coax that annoying halfling twit Tomi an extra time (sometimes several times) into opening or disarming whatever.
How many more trolls will I have to kill? My character is a Fighter/Cleric level 11 and the fights haven't been challenging since she was at 4th level and fought the boss in the Prison (playing on Core rules).

The old Gary Gygax style of room after room with monsters and generic looking square dungeons is very much present. Although I must say that some of the modules with Mr Gygax' name on them are among my favourites. :hahaerr:

[This message has been edited by Earl Grey (edited July 25, 2002).]

Well, if you bothered to get Disarm Traps yourself, you wouldn't have to coax your NPC to do it. :D

They put so many locks and traps in because one of the things rogues do in particular is deal with locks and traps. There was a fair amount of comment in BG2 about how you really didn't need a thief at all because the locks and traps were so sparse (especially after Spellhold). Different people have different levels of tolerance for that sort of thing. Its a bit awkward in single play because you can't directly control your henchman. Its not a problem in multiplay, IMHO.

Of course, you should find the keys to most of those locks on the guy you just murdered. :p

You actually don't have to open most boxes if you aren't so inclined. Any main storyline quest object will either find you, or you will know which box it's in. Near the end of chapter 3 I stopped opening any box that Tomi couldn't disarm, because I had everything I wanted, and over 900,000 gp. In chapter 4, that was almost every chest I came across :)

Actually, I liked the idea that you couldn't control your henceman. It gave it a little more personality (if you think the AI stinks, try Pausanias AI scripts (It's in SP's download section). And.. you can make your own henceman with your own AI in your own module. You can give it personality with dialoges, triggers or something like that.

The graphic.. hmm.. Maybe it's because I got a very old computer that I doesn't think it's that important. I loved BG 1 and 2 for its simple graphic and that it actually Could run on my system. Oh well, perhaps Dungeon Siege got some pretty animations and stuff like that. But it's only eye candy! Not that it matters for the real player. I actually was shocked how beatiful Wail of the Banshee was.

And one little thing more.. there isn't many defensiv spells in nwn? Is that true? I have heard it from a friend but since I have only played Ranger so far, I don't know.

I don't love the single player module and I don't hate it. It was a bonus that Bioware made so we could learn the games basic and some people could grab their cola and toolset and start building amazing world made by themself and make it public to here others responses. That was why I got NWN in the first place.

Peace.

NWN has good graphics. Dungeon Siege has even better graphics. Fighting goes slower in NWN, but that's because NWN is D&D-based, and D&D is turnbased... Fortunatly, good graphics aren't all. Dungeon Siege or NWN.... for me it is easy to choose between a game with great graphics and bad gameplay and a boring story and a game with good graphics though maybe less good then DS but a much better gameplay and story...

It depends on what type of game you like. When you like Hack & Slash like Diablo 2, go play DS. But I'm a roleplayer and many people here are roleplayers, and I don't think that there is one roleplayer in the world that thinks DS is better then NWN.

Must say that I think that NWN is 9141^33 times the game then Dungeon seige, really didn't like Ds...

My main complaint with nwn is that its too easy.

I'm a 16th lvl figther and most of the stuff i kill now in chapter 3 have just been more annoying than any challenge. Chapter 1 had some challenges around every corner due to low level i guess. Even the bosses arent really tough. Especially due to the stone of recall.

I miss the challenge that the BG games had. I actually used to use the pause button to plan out stuff........

Never ****tier Nights

Ever bought a game - Then regretted it the moment you saw the icon on your desktop? Welcome to the world of Never Winter Nights. From bad graphics even on high end machines to bad voice acting, the game sucks.

Not a day goes past in which I wish I hadn't of wasted my money on this three CD piece of junk. From the intial install which rides up 2 gigs of my hard drive I knew I was doomed. Error messages appeared telling me I couldn't install. After some fine tweaking of my beloved machine I finally got it to install. Lo and behold, it loaded as well, glory be, it was a miracle. Alas, halfway through the creation of my dwarven fighter it crashed to Windows. After three unsuccesful tries I gave up and slept. The next morning before school I was feeling lucky, so I loaded up NWN, or tried to, as the case was. Nothing, after clicking 'Play.' Just plain ol' nothing.

One re-install and one late day for school later it was loading again. And the miracle of miracles happened, I got to create my character and play through the prologue... My word it was crap. I can understand that the prologue is the worst part of any game, but you think five years in development someone would have had at least one good idea for a plot. But no, city under siege, wow. Ten minutes into the first chapter, snap bang fizzle, my computer goes dead.

I reloaded it. Oh dear, for some reason my CD drives have been dis-abled, my floppy drive apparently doesn't exist anymore and I only have one hard-drive, wow, ya know I could swear that the floppy drive is right there and what the hell is my system installed on? The supposed missing hard drive: Great.

Oh yeah, and the extreme choppy performance on a 1.1 Athlon processor meeting all the recommended specs, it sucked. I clicked, literally four seconds later my character agreed and moved. I wouldn't dare venture into multiplayer.

So of course what happens next? I un-install and re-install like a good little gamer. Yet again, no response after clicking 'Play.' Great. One manual patch install later (more than 30 megs I had to download on 56k!) and a lot of swearing and abuse it worked, kinda. Tried to load my game at the start of chapter one... Nope, back to windows it sent me. Great.

Never again will there be ****ter Nights than these. Take it as you will.

So now I'm back to ol' faithful, BG2 and PS:T.

[ September 21, 2002, 01:02: Message edited by: Herf ]

I really liked both Dungeon Seige and NWN, but for different reasons.
I like DS because of the fast paced combat, the sprawling levels, and... the mules. Those mules are too cool! BUT, there were too few quests, you basically have like 5 or 6 quests in the whole game. There is a feeling that you really don't have enough to do. You don't usually go back to the same areas again, you are always on your way somewhere new, with little room for exploration, and no side paths or optional quests. So it has a really linear feel to it. The story is also a little bland. And was it just me or are the really cool items pretty much non-existant until the later part of the game? But despite the minor problems, I still had a lot of fun playing.

I like NWN because it offers you some freedom in what you where you go and what you do. And it's a D&D game, so I felt right at home. In fact it had a lot of the same "Feel" to it as Baldur's Gate, which I really liked. There are plenty of optional quests and stuff off of the beaten track for you to discover. You can find cool stuff almost right from the beginning. The story and quests are a little bland, but gets better as it goes on. The combat is a little slow paced, and the chests and boxes get somewhat monotonous after a while, but you can ignore most of them once you get a into the second or third chapter. The henchmen got really frustrating after a while, they actually seemed to get stupider as the game goes on. But these are minor flaws and did not detract from my enjoyment of the game in any major way.

I enjoyed both games imensely and totally disagree with the idea either is a bad game. And Herf, I had NO problems running either. I think NWN locked up occasionally but it wasn't that big of a deal, and after a patch or two even this minor problem was gone. I can sympathize with your frustration, but the fact that your comp has problems running it does not make it a bad game. Give it another chance!

[ September 21, 2002, 08:37: Message edited by: Nutrimat ]

:lol: I can't even remember making this thread. :) My opinion on the game has changed since however. I have got a RAM upgrade and it is an ok game. Still not great though.

[ September 22, 2002, 17:12: Message edited by: Z-Layrex ]

I wouldn't call Dungeon Siege an RPG. I'd call it a fantasy tactical combat simulator. It does this very well. If that's what you look for in a game, that's the one for you.

NWN tells a story. And it allows you to create your own modules. If that's what you look for in a game, that's the one for you.

As far as technical merit, NWN requires far more resources than DS, and I just don't see where they go. Certainly not the graphics, which are good, but not earth-shattering.

Morrowind just barely runs on my computer. But at least I can see the stunning visuals. :) I haven't played it enough to render a full judgement. So far, there's too much trudging around for my taste. :(

You know I've always wondered exactly where all the resources NWN hogs goes too. DS is much more impressive visually and I can run it at it's highest settings, and it runs smooth as silk. I downloaded a custom mod (admitedly, the mod itself or the new texture pack might have had something to do with it...heh, it could have been filled with OnHeartbeat scripts), and decided to check out what I was running NWN on. I had been running it on 800x600 64 mb textures, so I decided to up the visual to the higher resolution (what I ran DS on), and it was VERY skippy and stuttery. I'm sure NWN doesn't render it's graphics as efficiently as DS, and it's lighting/partical effects are much better and undoubtedly take up more processing power. *shrugs* I wish I knew why NWN was a resource hog...maybe it's the scripts. Maybe it has more going on in a typical gameworld then DS does.

Anyway, on Topic.

My computer does not let the game run good at all, nor does it load or save very fast. In all its a really slow sluggish game to me, yet I still play it all day. No way do I think this is as good as BG2, but I must say I like manny things that I think BG2 lacked. I like the new rule set in many ways, and the gameplay. I would probably think NWN to be just as good if I could run it as smooth and fast as Baldurs Gate.

NWN aint crap...its different :D

in a D&D sense, NWN is crap, in a CRPG sense, it's probably ok game. There's a huge difference between the two, as D&D offers a lot of explicit details, combinations, careers etc.

Putting it on a puter restricts all these aspects to something that I personally find absolutely horrible, but that's just me.

If you want to play a decent CRPG, play nwn multiplayer somewhere (single player is just dreadful). For D&D, seek out a real game instead.

I have to agree with Lokken. It is an okay game for the computer, but my machine is having some massive problems running it. I'm going to try putting it on the 1.2 Ghz machine I have in the basement, see if that runs it better. It has a lot less RAM though, so we'll see.

As far as D&D goes, no computer game can match the thrill of Saturday night P&P with your gang.