Sorry folks but I've recently been informed there's a guild cap and we've hit it so sorry, if you get into ALFA now you're gonna have to look for another guild.

Does this mean players who are 'on hold' for AORTA will not get in, and if not, will this cap be raised after NWN has been released?

For now your best bet would be to form your own Society, with like minded people. By the way, for future reference, the word "Guild" is being stricken from the charter, since its not been being used correctly anyway.

At anyrate, we don't know yet what the numbers will be, and likely won't know until after game release. The consensus so far is that More is not Better. So if you want to wait and hope for a spot in AORTA, you may be waiting for people to die off to leave you an opening.

My advice? Don't hold your breath. Wait for game release and create your own character and go! Join up with the PCs you meet in the game, and decide what to do from there. Otherwise, Go check out the Charter at ALFA and find out the criteria for starting your own Society.

Thanks a lot.

Woohoo - Now a Kobold Aider - I'm not sure if thats good or not.

[This message has been edited by Wildfire (edited April 15, 2001).]

So is there a list of whos in and whos not any where?

If you're in you would know, right?

Am I just that damn unlucky. Please someone slap me with a soft shell crustation. Fine, I shall wonder around on my own. That of course is assuming I actually get into alfa. (/me is growing tired of this game already)

"If you're in you would know, right?"


True . . . I guess I'm a gonna be a loner then. I'd ask if anybody wanted to hire a 3 foot tall halfing, but Bateluer despises mercenaries.

[This message has been edited by Bateluer (edited April 16, 2001).]

So what was the ALFA guild limit?

It was never clearly stated, and so there's been much debate. Most Societies have limited themselves to 6 or 7, some even less. For now, I wouldn't worry about it, since there's nothing to do together anyway. Just wait for release, and RP your interview if and when you find AORTA IC, if you still want to be a member.

(Btw, there are no "guilds" in ALFA. The definition does not apply, and so the term has been dropped and the Charter is being changed to reflect the appropriate titles.)

I would disagree, ALFA has used the term 'guild' from the start and they still list 'guild database' and 'register guild' on the website. I think that a guild is a totally reasonable term to use on ALFA. In any role-playing environment a group of PC who choose to band together for a common goal within a unified structure are by definition a guild. I guess you can call them what ever you want (group, society, etc.) but 'guild' is still an appropriate title.

And yes I am interested, but i don't have time to RP by Email. I'll get involved when NWN and ALFA starts. I still interested in helping to orginize the guild and I'm ready to play when the system is up and running.

Actually, Voltric, no... Paragon has stated that all that will be changed, and the word "guild" is being stricken.
If you want to read the entire topic go to the ALFA board, under General Discussion, and read: Topic: A clarification about 'Guilds'.
It saddens me to know that you believe I would propagate misinformation. Trust me, Voltric, I always check my sources.

From: Gwaeryn Symbaern (Paragon)
Date: Saturday, April 14, 2001 03:27 PM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I, personally abhor that term.It was brought about by the UO generation, and placed into further use by Everquest and AC.

Forgotten Realms Guilds, are usually set up by Merchant Families, or groups and are used to generate profit, and to provide benefits to their members.Think of the OLD Unions of 19th Century USA.
IE: the Lamp liters' Guild in Waterdeep

Society:
A society is a group of Like-minded people, who have a common goal.That goal, May or may not be attainable easily.
IE: The Harpers, Zhentarim, Cult of The Dragon
These are all societies.Societies can be made up many individuals, and ALSO may have several "Adventuring Companies" involved in them.

Adventuring Company:
An adventuring Company is what we all end up being in when we play a PNP game.A group of PCs, who may or may not know anything about each other, unite for a brief while to gain a certain "attainable" goal,(whether it be gold, treasure, or simply kill the monster.

I see most of ALFA's "guilds" as Societies.
They all have large-scope goals beyond get treasure.With this, I would like to add an amendment to the Charter, and hereby abolish the term "guild" from ALFA as the umbrella term for a group of individuals.

From this point out, I would like to hear the term Adventuring Company, or Society in more use.There really should be two separate forms on the application.Perhaps a "check here if you are a Adventuring Company" or "here for Society".
We need clarity.

[This message has been edited by Darien Noella (edited April 16, 2001).]

BTW; Darien I wasn't questioning your information as much as I was disagreeing with the need to change the term. I've never played either UO or EQ but I've been in many guilds in RPGs. The term has been used in that form for many years. I think the point that Paragon is over looking is that many groups who are formed to run a business all adventure. Due to the fact that all 'players' in a RPG be it a PnP, LARP, or CRPG want to advenuture. Thus if PCs form a guild (business) call it the healer guild for example, these clerics may also adventure together.

I think the only question is what is the 'goal' of AORTA? Is it advenuturing together or carry out some greater task. I think if I belong to an orginization I am still free to advenuture with any 'party' I want. The guild is there to provide a service - for a price - and further soom aim like learning or skill.

This was simply my opinion. I think things will change as ALFA evolves and many different groups come into existance.

[This message has been edited by Voltric (edited April 16, 2001).]

Voltric is absolutely right. If Paragon thinks that the world "guild" as we know it in online fantasy today derived from UO and EQ then he is very much mistaken. (Not to mention that he should inform himself a bit better on these matters.)

I've been a member of 3 or so guilds when the term MMORPG didn't even exist yet. For one, we had a very active guild in Sierra's The Realm with over 700 active members at its peak. It fell apart a few years ago because of some internal problems, but that's not my point. The only reason why the term "guild" could not apply in ALFA too is that they think guilds should be sanctioned and have less than 20 members. True, THAT is no guild. That's hardly a band.

The guilds in online worlds today don't stick to the rules for medieval guilds like the Baker's Guild or Shoemaker's Guild but go way beyond that. For instance, our guild in The Realm was called Guild of Darkness. How would Paragon define that? A guild of darknesses? Come on. Not to mention that even though the name of the guild is sinister, we were NOT an overall evil guild.

See my point?

[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited April 16, 2001).]

Just because the term has been used for many years doesn't mean that is has been used correctly. Merriam-Webster defines a guild as: a medieval association of merchants or craftsmen. Less rigid definitions are also possible, but in the society of FR, the original one is most appropriate.
The definition of a guild calls for members who share a trade or a skill, as in your example of a Healer's Guild. The activities of a guild need not preclude adventuring, and a guild of clerics could of course be both a Guild and an Adventuring Party simultaneously. Other examples would a Bardic Alliance, (all bards) or a Wizards Guild (all magic users).

However, the groups that have been forming around ALFA are not Guilds, as defined by the strictest definition. They include members of various classes and skills, and are not bound together by any particular trade. Thus they are better described as "Societies". It's semantics, but still...

Thanks for the debate, Voltric, it's been a blast! :D

[This message has been edited by Darien Noella (edited April 16, 2001).]

So you're saying that adventuring cannot be considered a skill, craft or trade? I would hazard the opinion that it is... I don't know what the vision for AORTA was, but from reading the AORTA page, it seemed we were a group of adventurers that people in trouble could come to for help. Depending on the nature of the trouble, we could select the best group of adventurers to face the task. Our fee would be the spoils of our adventuring... Each of us I'm sure would provide info to the rest of the guild about how best to face various hazards (be they monsters or whatever) that have been encountered. Sounds like a guild to me.

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited April 16, 2001).]

(response to Darien, darn simultaneous posts) ;)

Knock, knock!? Anyone home? I just said we're WAY beyond the time where the term could have been used correctly from the beginning. ALFA can't change that, sorry, when the whole world thinks of guilds (guilds in online worlds, of course), as something completely different.
Sure, they can try, and I'm sure they will...
But that won't make much difference. As it is, there is hardly any need to change the term guild to anything else because of what the word means. NO ONE here understands guilds as the guilds you'd find in medieval Europe for example. Again, I'm talking about online guilds, to make myself 100% clear.

Changing the name from guilds to societies or anything else in this case is a farce. Just put a sticker on the guild page saying that they must not excess 20 members. That would solve the whole problem with much less fuss.

[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited April 16, 2001).]

Ok, the number of members in a Guild/Society, whatever, is not the issue right now. I dont' think anyone will be regulating the size of these organizations after the release of NWN. As long as those members meet In Character, and join the Society based on the character's motivations, and not on the Player's desire to play with his buddies.

First and foremost, ALFA is a Role Playing community. This means that the CHARACTERS come first. Not the players, not the "guilds". Just as in BG and BG2, people will begin their adventures alone, with one or two companions, and build relationships within the Game. All of this extraneous recruitment should really never have been started in the first place.

BTA, adventuring is not a skill or a craft, and could only be loosely defined as a trade. Skills are defined specifically in DnD, and "adventuring" is not on the list. :p Heh. Regardless, as I said before, it is semantics, and will not change people's concepts of any of the ALFA "guilds."

Just one point I don't really understand... What is PnP D&D all about? A group of buddies getting together for a bit of escapist adventure. I just don't see what's wrong with that. Once in-game things may change; you may want to join with others on their more interesting adventure, you may decide you don't like your buddy's character etc. What's wrong with wanting to start together with a bunch of friends that you want to hang around and have fun with? I thought that was the whole point of this! :)

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited April 16, 2001).]

Exactly. And Darien, where do you have any confirmation that they will not be regulating sizes of guilds after release? They sure started doing it quickly before the release.

Tal, I don't have any confirmation, it's only my belief, which is why I said "I don't think anyone will be..." My point is simply that the entire membership of the Societies should be left to be formed within the game. As with any game, this one won't be played until it's shipped and installed. Creating a "guild" with 20 or more members is premature, and fogs the issue of Role Playing within the game. What's the big deal with simply waiting until game release and joining then? Erran has already said that recruits will be expected to RP their applications to AORTA, so I see no conflict. I don't think that regulatingg their size within the game will be an issue, as long as the Societies are developing realistically within Faerun. After all, the Harpers are not limited to 20 members, last I heard, so how can any Society be constrained that way. This is simply a prerelease issue that is being belatedly brought under control.

As for joining with your friends for PnP, BTA, when's the last time you had a group of 20 people sitting in your livingroom playing the same game at the same time? There is absolutely nothing wrong with a handful of buddies getting together for a good time. But that handful of adventurers is not a guild or a society, or anything other than an adventuring party. The Societies are supposed to be something special, something bigger than just running around with your friends, beating up the bad guys.

Can you see the distinction?

The issue is not with how big is will get before release, but instead a metagaming issue. The bigger the groups are the more likely that it is to happed.

As for the agurments that ALFA cannot define guilds a certain way, you're dead wrong. TSR defined the Guilds in their source books as those Trading Companies or Tradesman groups that worked within a particular fields. For example the Iron Throne is a Guild of trades who work the same routes and give a portion of their profits (albiet a large portion) to the Iron Throne for the privilege of using their guards and trading houses.

The problem is that there is a very real difference between what we see a guild as and what it actually is in game terms. How many of you would consider the Knight of Myth Drannor a guild? By some your logic they would be, but it clear that nobody would consider them as such. The ALFA Admin are trying to get people in groups like the Knights of Myth Drannor at the start of the game. If you want to get a group that rivals the War Wizards and the Purple Dragons after the game starts go for it, but you have to it do IC. You can't just have people signing up, which is unfortunatley what happened with AORTA.

This has been decided, and is a matter now a of semantics. ALFA encourages people to band together to adventure. What they don't want is mighty hordes overrunning everything. And like I said they have no problems with societies, guilds, organizations, evil cabals, or whatever you want to call them getting really big after release. It is before release they just want a small group to organize the group they plan on starting and RP all other meetings out in game.

In any case the point it moot. I doesn't detract from the entire points of ALFA. Go join and start your own bands if you want. Become your own leaders or insane wizards. There are still plenty of ideas kick around I'm sure.

And I thought I was in minority when I was saying that I won't bother with all this until the game is released. Heh.
It wasn't my idea you know. Maybe Erran is to eager, I don't know. But you seem to be pretty much into this whole thing too Darien. Or am I wrong?

Nah.. mostly I just enjoy a good debate, and this has definitely been THAT! A few days ago, I was arguing just as vehemently for the other side! LOL!

It's all fun, guys, don't worry about it. :D

My understanding of having a large group of people was so that there was a greater chance that you'd be able to find a few people with the same goals that wanted to play at the same time you did. Thus the guild. There is a certain philosophy behind it, so those that want to join share in that philosophy and would enjoy adventuring with others that wanted to join. There's a place for people to gather out of game and say "Hey, when would you like to get together to play?" I personally see no difference between gathering the people before release and after. It's not like they're going to provide a castle for us, and like you said the whole intent was to have people roleplaying their way in anyway. Which is why I don't care one way or the other... I just don't understand the reason for the big stink this has turned into.

I'm with you, Blackthorne. I always thought the guilds existed, at least partially, to give an in-game reason to a meta-game convience(i.e., getting a group of adventurers together).
Maybe I'm underestimating the power of guilds, or just missing the point.

As to why there's such a big stink over it: it's april of 2001. ALFA started up late '99, and NWN won't ship 'til late this year. It's a big deal because there's nothing else to put that NWN energy into, basically.

Cullain

Good points made by all. I think that perhaps the whole guild issue is getting a bit blown out of proportion. It's only a word that applies to a group of like minded players in this case. I usually don't carry around my copy of Websters Dictionary, but my understanding is that a 'guild' is much like a workers union of today. I'd side with one of you debaters, but I already forget who stands for what. Heh.
Myself, I would rather play with people that I know and trust (or distrust), it's much more fun.

Oh, does anyone know how many times I can apply to ALFA?

*/me Starts to count on his fingers*

Lord Moeken,

You can apply as many times as you like. The only thing is that you may only apply again after the rejection period. I believe that it is 2 weeks. So if you don't get a great big acceptance letter within 2 weeks of applying try again.

Ok lots of good points. My view:
I wanted a guild of 20 or so so that any time I logged on I would find another 5 chums to go adventuring with. We've got members in Slovenia, Norway, UK, East Coast US, Central US, West Coast US and Hawaii.
Can someone tell me when I'm gonna get that on line all at the same time?!
Glad to see Duskai show up, please newcomers do NOT put ...of AORTA in your sig pic or post, you're on the wait list til shipment day, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun.
Whats in a name - AORTA is an Order of Adventurers, whatever that means
I'll be away on business for a bit so I wont be able to post. Hopefully when I'm back the smoke will have cleared.

Well perhaps that was my problem. After assuming that I failed my first app. (which is a valid assumption I think) I reapplied with what I thought was an exercise in perfection, just one week later. Perhaps I was too hasty. I realize that ALFA has to be quite picky to keep out the riff raff, but hell, I'm a Lord for crying out loud ;)

[This message has been edited by Lord Moeken (edited April 17, 2001).]

Player Apps are not being reviewed until the player database goes online.Up until then, im afraid its gonna be a wait.
:(

Thanks, Paragon! :)

Wah? Huh? Did I hear correctly?
Applications for ALFA aren't being processed at the moment?
*uses best Jim Carry impersonation*
So you're telling me there's a chance eh. Cool.

*Edit* AND I JUST SUBMITTED AN APPLICATION!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: AHHHHHHH!!!

No need for that, Egg. Chill!

[This message has been edited by Darien Noella (edited April 18, 2001).]

Too many big stinks lately concerning ALFA policy round here lately. I gotta agree with BTA. It's all in the name of fun, just play the game and forget the debates ;)

To paraphrase Bill Shankley talking about soccer:
"Of course it's not a matter of life and death - its MUCH more important than that!"
:D

Well doesn't that just take the cake. Exactly three weeks after my application was submitted to ALFA I get my acceptance notice. I'm glad that I got accepted, but I wanted to play with you people, my companions, the people I've learned to trust. Damn ALFA for being so slow! Anyways, anyone else in this predicament and looking for a place to play or a guild to join? Crawl? ;)

You're IN!! Yay!! :D

*big hugs and a congratulatory smooch!!*

Don't worry about the guild being full. I'm sure plenty of us will die off soon enough leaving room for all you wannabes. ;) I'm not expecting Vandriel to last a week of game time! lol!

Congratulations Moeken! And don't worry; just because you're not in the guild doesn't mean you can't adventure with any of us...

Argh!!! *Crawl shakes his fists at the sky* Why god, why?!? Oh, to heck with it...I give up. Anyone looking for a high advisor position ;)