For the topics start te get more serious, I wanna ask your opninion/believes about what will happen when we die. I already told that I believe in God, I know what's gonna happen in the Afterlife. How do you think about this?

I suspect there is nothing. I can't imagine anything to be without biochemical support, but I will be very pleased if i'm wrong and the post mortem theories, i was told in the church, before i went non-conformistic(sp?), proved to be true.

Well and I just can't imagize that all that beautifull on this world just came "by accident", I'm sure it's created by God, not by a Big Bang. And so I'm also sure that when I die it will not end.

I am more a philosopher than scientist, so I dont know what to believe because nobody has ever been able to tell the story of death in a way that science approve. To some point I would expect nothing from the bio-chemical reations in the body and in lifeforms in general. Though if a spiritual form of life, that extends itself beyond scientific understanding I would be most thrilled :)
I really hope there is some sort of afterlife, and when the time comes, I will await it in excitement

[This message has been edited by Darien Noella (edited July 07, 2001).]

I think we get recycled...Just like everything else. So, I guess I'll go with the circle of life theory.

I've always noticed that when things die, they get recycled by nature, and the physical body is used to feed growing plants, organisms and other animals. As for the soul...Maybe that gets recycled too! Many people claim to recall past lives, so why not?

I can't believe that after this we get nothing. I can't imagine how something ends completely. Everything that has a beginning needs to have an end but that is not always a permanent one. I don't have an example right now but I'll think of sth.
Anyway, about that biochemical support and scientific side of the matter, it is widely accepted by the scientific community that our brain is actually unexplored. We know nothing of our full potential and we can't be sure that we don't have capabilities that might keep what we now call 'spirit' alive. So maybe afterlife is just a state where our mind can wander free, without the help of our body. Of course there must be a supreme force that created all this but I won't be the one to judge whether or not it's God.
And now, don't hurry. We'll all find out what's on the other side some day so we might as well take our time till then.


[This message has been edited by Stargazer rb-rjd (edited June 12, 2001).]

Hi Headbanger! I have something You can ponder on this sommer:If god created the big blast? What created God? Has god been here forever?If so, this means that there could be unlimited amounts of universes. Unlimited amounts of universes means that You could have a copy of Yourself in another universe. When You get connected by some devine channel, is that Deja Vu?

I myself believe in the circle of life theory, however humans have long ago pulled themselves out of the circle by embalming (sp?) and burying their bodies 6 feet under where tree roots cannot reach them.

I do not want to be embalmed and i want a huge willow tree to be planted on me.

I also believe in reincarnation. I hope i come back as a cat.. now that would be the life.

[This message has been edited by Kitiara (edited June 12, 2001).]

Nobleman ---> How can the Creator be created? He was always there. I don't say I can explain and prove all I believe but I know that He lives. The problem is that we human think we're so smart nowadays and we wanna understand everthing but we can't and that we have to accept (and that's hgard for us) About cycle, things cycle yes but not the spirit.... Your spirit, youself, that's something unique.

I didn't make a statement. I asked You qustion. About Deja Vu. Just curious on Your Opinion cause You seem to have pondered alot on theese things. :cool:

I don't believe in that. God created one Heaven, one Earth, and one Universe. But God isn't only a creator, who just looks at what he created, he wants us to know him and so he gave us the bible, written by men, inspired by God. In the bible is everything we have to know about him. If he created more earths or more humans somewhere else, he would let us know it.

Although I really cannot stand organized religion, I still believe there has to be some kind of afterlife. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that I cannot grasp the concept of my own existence, and I cannot imagine the universe without me.
I don't believe I was put here on earth with the sole purpose of preparing myself for the afterlife, though. What's the point of life if you don't live it?

My somewhat negative attitude towards organized religion has more to do with the way humans have practiced their religion throughout history than the actual Message itself.

I'm not so sure headbanger. The bible definately brings up some good points, but do you really think that everything we could possibly know about God is contained in the bible? We are given pieces of information about creation, how people are supposed to live and what sort of spiritual afterlife we can expect. Just because something isn't covered in the bible doesn't automatically make it false and if God wanted us to know everything, well, then we would be Gods ourselves.

I almost forgot to put in my two cents about the topic. For some it would be very depressing if the truth were that there was nothing after death, only the stop of a heartbeat. One can try to explain life through a series of chemical equations or electrical impulses through synapses in the brain, but even as I sit and type these words, it just seems that there has to be more.
The question of what happens after death becomes very difficult answer: Do we have a soul or spirit that exists outside the physical world? Does it exist in our hearts or our brains? Why do we not have tangible feedback that our soul exists, while we are living? Does the way we act in life describe the essence of our soul, and if so, why can head injuries or chemical imbalances totally change the way a person behaves?

These questions are beyond me. I suppose if I was less of a skeptic and more of a spiritual being, then I would have my answers.

[This message has been edited by Lord Moeken (edited June 12, 2001).]

Now I think You are beeing harsh on Headbanger.He expressed himself more precise in 3 lines that I have heard people do in 3 hours peptalk. good going banging head! :cool:

He didn't say we should know everything from the bible. He said we can learn what we have to learn. There is a difference. Anyway about universe/multiverse I'll take a peek in the bible this summer and find something that supports multiverse :D

Nobleman - I've often thought about the universe/multiverse subject. The Bible seems to support a single universe, but doesn't rule out more.

One thing about the Bible is that it is definitive on what we need to know to be saved. It does not set itself up to be the whole answer on every topic under the sun.

Personally, where the Bible stops speaking, I get real hesitant before I start labeling my opinion as TRUTH.

I am a god, and therefore I won't die.

since i am a not a believer in anything what so ever my answer will be quite bleak. but here it comes:

since i feel that there is no god nor is there satan and i dont think that there is such a thing as neutrality, i would think death would be nothingness although since our brains would be shutdown we wouldnt realize that there even is nothingness we would just fade away all our thoughts and perceptions would cease to exist and there would be just that nothingness but since our perceptions would be gone we couldnt even percieve nothingness therefore there would be nothing to percieve to say it bluntly there would be nothing, if such a thing exists. think of this world as positive and death as negative + and - = 0 which is nothing, i suppose this isnt even an answer just a living thought.

i belive that when you die you go where you belive you will go. thats it. nothing more nothing less.
it has been scientifically proven that the body decreases a few pounds in weight when you die (in the moment of death) and it is belived that this is the spirit form leaving the body.
there are many supposed spirit levels, cant type about them all right now but they are supposed to exist and the onyl way we can reach the lower ones is in lucid dreaming.

herf.

thats an interesting philosophy herf, similiar to the belief of nirvana a place of perfect bliss, as long as one thought they would go there they would, it is really quite interesting.

Hmm. What herf said.

I kind of like Herf's idea about going to where you want...Does that mean I'll go to a planet inhabited only by women, where I can jello wrestle all day?!?!?!? :D

Maybe it is better to burn out than fade away, eh? :cool: :D

Bel - be careful what you wish for. The women on your planet could be the East German woman's wrestling team!!!!!!

Seriously, if anyone's read C.S. Lewis's Narnia books, the "Final Battle" has a great view of this.

There are dwarves in paradise, all sitting in a little circle and convinced that they are in a locked cabin. They are eating a gormet meal, but think that it is just scraps.

Meanwhile the main characters are running, exploring and enjoying the presence of the Lion, Aslan. My kind of after-life. In the presence of those I love; brought there even though I don't deserve it (but the Lion paid my way); and filled with adventure.

To say that there is no afterlife is to remove the difference between man and animal. Man has a soul, animal does not. Why? Could the soul be produced by evolution? I don't think so.

If you don't think man has a soul, take a look at the animals. How many gods do you see them worshipping? Why haven't monkeys ever built any temples? Man has always reached out to something greater than himself. If nothing greater than man exists, (i.e., we are the current pinnacle of evolution) where in the world would he get the idea of a being greater than himself? He shouldn't be able to conceptualize it.

Good point Capstone... a soul cannot be evoluted, some great Craftmanship was needed to create this all.

Would you know an animal was worshipping a god even if you saw it? I haven't heard of anyone who can understand the thoughts of animals. I haven't seen monkeys build a house to live in either...

Just because you can conceptualize something doesn't mean it exists; nor does it follow that if there is nothing greater than man, that man could not conceptualize something greater...

being the pinnacle of evolution has nothing to do with haveing a soul or with animals worshipping gods, its all a matter of intelligence, humans are obviously intelligent enough to imagine a greater power, but are too stupid to describe it since it has obviously not been seen. where does this greater power dwell? is it on some other plane? is there even such a thing as another plain? or another dimension? being the rational man that i am (and im not implying that any of you are irrational) i have to believe what i see and what had been proven, of course one can bring up the point of just because you havn't seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist is juts another if, and is not in any way logical or proven or in any way in real opposition to what i said since im not saying that only things i see exist, im just explaining why i believe what i do.

No, animals don't build houses, they build nests for the most part...

Egg, I might also point out that just because you've seen it doesn't mean it exists (mirage anyone?). Also, just because it's been proven doesn't mean it's true. Many things have been scientifically "proven" impossible that were later accomplished -- land speeds over 35 mph, the flight of the bumblebee, etc.

The Bible, religion, God...... wait till Shura gets back and reads this, heh heh heh....
On my part, i don't claim to know what happens after death and i cannot stand people who say they KNOW what is gonna happen because they just KNOW. nobody knows, you can guess all you want but you don't KNOW. me, i don't give a rat's ass. i'm living now, i keep myself happy now. what happens after that is not controllable so why give a damn. but a debate is cool though, not slamming these views, just giving my side of the story. keep em coming in....

Well I know what's gonna happen after this life and maybe you can't stand that there are people who know what you don't know (and this is something everybody wants to know, I don't believe you when you say it doesn't interest you.)

At least I can tell you how great it is to live without being affraid of dieing.

A quote of one of my favorit bands, Dream Theater, that described my feelings about this subject very good:

I used to be frightened of dying
I used to think death was the end
But that was before
I'm not scared anymore
I know that my soul will transcend

I may never find all the answers
I may never understand why
I may never prove
What I know to be true
But I know that I still have to try

If I die tomorrow
I'd be allright
Because I believe
That after we're gone
The spirit carries on

It seems to be in human nature to reach for the unknown, and to hypothesize about things we don't know. We all have hopes and dreams.
To think that after spending seventy or so years building and defining our existance, it all ends in a hole in the ground is too much to take for some people. Every creature has some feelings of self preservation, we humans just take it to the next level. I sure would like to have some sort of existance after my physical body is dead, who wouldn't.

The human mind can do some wonderous things. I have heard people's testimonies about their relationship with God and I've read about people having experiences with the spirit world. I don't refute these claims, I've just never had them myself. Of course one probably should pursue God if you hope to find Him. If you open your mind to an idea you could probably convince yourself of almost anything.

I don't want to interrupt or anything, but I just wanted to point out that there are exacly 666 topics on this board right now. It's almost related to the topic ;).

[This message has been edited by Vicsun (edited June 19, 2001).]

Headbanger: Two thumbs up! One because I generally agree with what you say and the other because I love that song and the band :D.

Now, on the original matter I'd just want to add that people that have been technically dead for some time report several things about seeing their body from above or going through a dark tunnel and all. Most of these stuff can be scientifically explained but what if we are just avoiding to see them as proof of an afterlife? OK, this starts to look waaaaay too much like the 'X-files' so I'll just lay off for a while. And, just for the record, since we're all going to die one day we might as well die happy. So stop thinking about this. It's too morbid for a summertime conversation.

P.S. Has anyone watched 'The meaning of live'? Great black comedy... You should take a look at it if you want to see death from a totally different angle ;).

If there is no afterlife and no God, then we humans have some amazing mental powers. Supernatural events have been too well documented to be entirely discounted.

Wow... Im suprised that this topic has gone on for so long and no one has actually put the 'crap' on it. Its good to see people thinking past material desires in life and looking beyond.
Im a Christian myself and strongly believe in God, but I respect all who believe in a higher being regardless of religion. From the Ancient Egyptians and 'their' messages in the Pyramids to present day religions. To believe in an afterlife but mostly to worship a higher being is what makes us children of God.
Now to put my two cents in on this topic: I believe that animals do not have a soul but are all part of the 'essence of God'. When they 'die' they become a part of the greater energy of God, although I believe man's soul trancends to God for Eternity (or 'falls from grace'). I believe heaven and hell are 'positive and negative' planes of existance. Fire and brimstone are characteristics that man have conceptualised to try and comprehend this existance. So do not criticise this line of thought, it is much more 'advanced' than this. What organised religions have done over the years does not represent how all 'organised' religions and their people are. They were performed by corrupt individuals who took advantage of the people...and yes, organised religion is needed. Who are we as individuals to judge what is right or wrong? It may be hard to admit because of the selfish nature of human nature but we do not know all. Religion is the accumulated wisdom and enlightenment of generations and generations of people which stems back to the true source.
About evolutionary theories and science that we have discovered, this should further enhace ones belief if a higher being, how could all this beautifal creation be by accident? It is surely the creation of God.
On a finishing note, Christians (and people of other faiths) are being persecuted even more in todays society than in the days of old (i.e. Romans killing Christains), we are now faced with ridicule and death of faith through today's society. Keep it real, keep your faith, in whatever you may believe, just as long as you keep your mind open and belive there may be hope.


Seek and you shall find.

Just a little food for thought (or spirit)
A non religious man asked a monk, "what if there is no God? You will be sacrificing so many of the joys in life for nothing"
The monk replied: "Well, if I'm wrong I'll just die peacefully thinking that I'm going to a better place, but what if I'm right? What will happen to you?"

(a crude translation off the top of my head)
Think about what this could mean...

The non-religious man was so wrong. He thought what many people think, Christians have to miss lot's of pleasures in this life.

That's not true, I realy enjoy life, play RPG's, sport at least 4 evenings a week go to pubs and disco's 3 evenings a week, even smoke a joint a few times a year.... so what pleasures do I miss? As a christian you got even more reason to enjoy life and make fun, if you just don't forget God and thank God for what you get.

One question though. Who decides what is meant by respect to God? Who decides what he actually wants of us? I respect God, if there is one. I respect that he knows what he is doing, and he knows what I am doing. I believe he knows me so well that I do not have to openly show it to him that I love and believe in him. Back to what he wants of us. How do we know? The Bible? Humans wrote the Bible. Supposedly influenced by God, but who knows? Only God does. Do you claim to KNOW God? Do you claim that you KNOW what God wants? I don't. I leave everything to God because I believe he is all powerful and wise. HE knows everything. Not us.

No one has an answer I see....

[This message has been edited by Arkados Blackmire (edited June 22, 2001).]

I hope I get to see my dog when I die. I love my dog! Do animals go to heaven? I heard somewhere that animals can't go to heaven because they don't have souls. I need my dog to be truly happy in heaven!

Just taking a look at this for a moment- when you die, what happens to you? Why should death trigger some kind of event like ascending to heaven? What is death but the ceasing of brain function? When the brain is dead, like a fallen tree, your body remains. What more do you need? Why is that not exceptable? Is that sad, bad, wrong? Should not the life lived encapsulate all, without need for existence beyond Time? What makes humans so special as to receive a gift of life beyond and not the cat, or the bird? Is it for we are superior? We are Gods in our own minds and thus deserve something else, not to end like the fallen tree or the hunted lion? We are far more pitiful and undeserving, and yet we think our method our mode of sentience gives us some form of unique right. It stinks of blind hubris.

Sure it's a nice thought to think that we transcend this mortal pith, but I have learned to trust only what I can see, for it is truly all that exists. Mine eyes are my tools, what they see, deception or not, is what is out there for me. I search for answers, constantly, this is true, but I take none on faith. I believe nothing for the sole reason that someone else told me it was true. What I'm saying is I may not have any answers, but at least I'm looking. If God is what you say he is, he will have nothing against me running a background check and talking to his previous employers. Why must truth be hidden, or rather, a conclusion be reached? "A conclusion is simply when someone stops thinking." Constantly explore, constantly interpret. These are the facets of your existence, do not waste them by conceding to know what you know.

Finally, why do we classify God as a "HE"? Does he have testicles? Is he XY? If so, WHY? I mean, sure for Jesus to have testicles is one thing, he could have spawned a score of mortal progeny, but God?? If so, I'd like to know his gene sequence... or at least Jesus's... imagine if we could clone a baby Jesus... would he still have his magical healing powers?

Amon-Ra

[This message has been edited by Amon-Ra (edited June 25, 2001).]

Yes we are superior to other things on earth. I don't say we always uses it the right way but if you don't see that we are different from all other creatures on earth there is something wrong.

About that last question, he wouldn't have that powers no for you can clone a body but not a soul/mind ans Jesus was God in a human body.

Amon-Ra has a good point. Why should humans be superior? Have we ever evolved?
Have we become a greater, better race?
Certainly not. Humans are like carnivores.
Wipe the others away so we can rule ourself. The ideals of "perfect" humans are similar to when canines kill or shun
all different-looking pups.
And what about our inventions?
So many things were created with war in mind.
We are probably more controlled by our instinct than we believe.
So many doesn't think for themselves and
has the same opinions as the "leader".
For example my old school. I had a couple of friends. We had fun together every day. Then they began to be a lot together with a couple of guys that has hated me since THEY began talking to another guy who hated me.
They haven't talked to me since.
We are the wrong race to have all that power. I mean...during the cold war we had enough weapons to destroy earth
16 times or so.

Amon-Ra...

You say that you trust only what you see for it is all that exists. Have you ever seen a mirage? Your senses are fallible; the information they feed your brain is not necessarily true. Have you ever seen love? For that matter, have you ever seen your brain? If you only accept what your eyes see, then what about this life do you hold as truly valid?

It has been argued before that there is no true material world; everything we perceive, that we experience, is contained within our own minds. How do you scientifically refute that? It is impossible to even begin to think logically without starting on a foundation of faith. "Cogito, ergo sum" is a belief statement; as a self-defining statement, there is no basis from which to prove it. It must be simply accepted, and then logic can build upon that to create your paradigm.

As to your question, Arkados, the answer is that yes, I do claim to know God. Christianity is more than a religion to me; it is a relationship with God Himself.

Very well said Capstone.
Also, based on this, everyone lives in their own universe. Sometimes people have the same things in their universes, like, maybe, they both have a tree they can see and touch and presume is real. I live in what I presume to be my life with beings I presume to be human. Is there a God? Is there outer space? Is there, in fact, anything outside my room? In my memory of the past there is an outside of my room, but memories are uncertain. In what I presume to be my life, I do not claim to know anything for certain, I only presume as such and act accordingly. In my universe there is no God. There may be a God in your universe, but that is your problem. As it has been said that all your senses, everything you know, might not be real, therefor there is no one universe. Everyone has their own. So if you say there is a God, i believe there is. But he exists in your universe, not mine, and maybe not others. I am typing right now at what seems to be my computer, in reply to a post that seems to annoy me, because it pleases me. Maybe another day that same post will not annoy me. Maybe another day I will not even remember why it annoyed me. Is this real? I can only presume so. Now I seem to be getting tired and should get to what is presumably called sleep. When I wake up, will I see this post? Or will it be a dream? Who cares.

Nice Forum this one. My gratitude to it.

This is getting more and more interesting. I have made a mental picture of it to make it easier to understand. Here goes:
The sun. What is it made of? I would answer Hydrogen and Helium as I have learned. Then another "deeper question" Why does Helium and Hydrogen Glow? I would answer because the temperature is so high that a reaction occur, and light is emitted as a "waste" product. Why is Light emitted from reactions? Here I give up. And Faith In science takes over. At some point we just don't have the knowledge anymore and scientist have to have a faith equivalent to the ones Christians have. The Main arguement of the two philosopic post above this one.
This is true. But I think there is a difference though. It may be just cosmetic or a descussion of semantics.

Scientists start with deduction and end with faith
Christians start with Faith and ends with deduction

In a more clear mental picture Christians shape the world from their beliefs. The scientists work the other way around.

So just because faith is used both in religion and science doesn't mean its the same kind of feelings. This is a flaw in the english vocabulary.
fx my faith in programming made me type those silly [][/] in my name. the faith came from deduction of faith in my knowledge.

well now I have cofused myself. I didn't mean to bug You and all. I thought If was so simple in my mind, but images of the mind can be deceiving :rolleyes:

By the way, my favorite quote to put an end to my mumbling here is:

Thank God,I am an Ateist! :)


[This message has been edited by The Nomad (edited June 28, 2001).]

Register anew then and let me know to delete this silly nickname.

hey nomad no problem, its very clear, not confusing at all, i get what u are trying to say

I see that a few of us question the existance of a world outside our own mind (is it all a dream etc...etc..). It is impossible for the human mind to comprehend such things and it is on faith that we can only keep this link with something higher. Generally, it is human nature to be selfish and self preserving. To believe that reality revolves around ones perception is selfish and ignorant to say the least. Do you believe that we are all part of your dream? And do we also believe this about you? (no one in particular). The individual is nothing but a very very..very small part of the whole, the one we have named God. It is quite humbling to think that we are nothing but a drop of water in the endless ocean. Religion is not ones perception alone, the belief that you make the reality around you and have such power to do so (at this stage) is nothing but a small perception in a mind trying to comprehend.

To finish off my say heres a little 'story'.

A man was walking along the beach pondering the meaning of the universe and God when he saw a child cupping sea water in his hands and placing it in a small hole in the sand. The man asked the child what he ws doing and the child replied, 'placing the sea into this hole'. The man replied by telling him that it was not possible to do. He had just 'answered' the question which was pestering him all along and fell to his knees in awe.

I believe that when you die, you can go to heaven or hell or be reincarnated. I also believe that humans are NOT superior to animals and that their souls are they same as ours. If you believe humans are "superior" then thats just really arrogant of you.

[This message has been edited by Elf_friend (edited June 30, 2001).]

Capstone: Certainly, my senses are fallible. They do occasionally fail me, and I wear glasses as a reminder. They, however, are the tools I have been given to interpret this world. My mind and my body are the only things of which I am aware, and thus the only guides I was given in this life that I can nominally call my "own". I have instilled a certain trust, not absolute, for I am not keen on being deceived, but a distinct and relatively large trust in these facets of interpretation. I do not claim to know everything, in fact I do not, and CANNOT justify any claim to "know" anything, to paraphrase Sohkraytz [B&T's, anyone?]. I claim exactly that.

As an individual, one of my personal goals is to attempt to understand, to make some "sense" of the world around me. I realize that to do so entirely is highly unlikely, but yet I will not cease, for perhaps I will aid the discovery, the progression of further generations. Thus in my mind, I will continue to uphold a "decent" and "kind" lifestyle without the need for conclusion. Never will I stop searching for understanding. I cannot concede to a single view, based on the words of others. I feel the inherent need to know things of my own accord, to hear and see and feel them for myself, not because of what someone else, somewhere else has passed down generation after generation.

Why should we believe? What do we gain? How does that help our fellow man? How does it benefit society? Religion, as a method of morality I have no problem with. Such was why organized religion took root: to take reigns over the masses and ensure domestic tranquility. Would anyone care to argue this historical point? But when organized religion begins to place holds on science, restricts biotechnology, advancements for the betterment of mankind because of how it "defiles the soul", I feel as a human being it my duty to resist. Excuse me if I do, I am only doing what I feel is best for mankind.

To speak entirely scatalogically :D once more, nobody answered me about God having testicles... I await your debate on this matter!!

Amon-Ra

I believe he is a hermaphrodite but people are used to refering to him as a 'he'.

This topic has already been debated to death imo so i won't add more.

[This message has been edited by Tyresian (edited June 30, 2001).]

I've been avoiding this topic for some time, mainly because I thought I'd have nothing to add, having no religious convictions, but I thought I'd put my own tuppen'orth in now.
1) with reference to herf's post. If I read that correctly, herf is saying that souls have mass. If this is true, then it has all manner of implications as far as I can see, such as souls being governed by physical laws and so forth. Maybe it even implies that Heaven and Hell are physically existing places - just wait until the property developers find out ;). Personally, although I am undecided on whether or not souls exist I feel that if there is a spiritual world, then it must be seperate from the physical world.
2) Humans and animals. I personally think that the whole idea of man being somehow seperate and superior to everything else is untrue. The universe is so large, the length of time before man's evolution (unless you take the 7 days stuff literally) is so vast, it seems unbelievably arrogant to assume that we have some form of priveleged position, and that all this is somehow run for our benefit. Biologists have tried (and failed, to the best of my knowledge) to find an anatomical feature unique to humanity and therefore a contender for the seat of the soul. I appreciate that it can be argued that mankind is the only species capable of self awareness to the extent that people are responsible for their own actions (possibly connected to the fruit of knowledge in Genesis), and therefore animals are exempt from any kind of judgement. Scientists are continually proving that animals aren't as dumb as we think, although self conciousness hasn't been proved. I think that even if animals were self-aware, in the same way that humans are, it would be impossible to prove.
3) I cannot imagine an end, however neither can I imagine an existence without corporeal support. At one point I had some idea, with no reason, that subjective time slowed right down so that your last moment lasted forever to you.

Just my random thoughts

Amon Ra, I sincererly agree with you that one must try to make sense of the world around him/her and not remain 'ignorant'. But when that gets to the point where you do not believe OR find it hard to believe what you do not see with your own eyes, that is being a little self contained. It is not possible to discover everything with your 'own eyes' and to only base your belief on that, will restrict the 'self discovery' in which you wish to endevour. Do you believe that there are planets other than our own, or that Earth is round, maybe continents do not exist which you belive do. You can't believe in these as you have not seen them with your own eyes.
As for God 'having testicles' if this is you trying to be funny... or maybe you are really asking a question? God as being male is just how humans express themselves when we talk about HIM/HER. If 'man' refered to God a she you would be asking why 'she' as well. It is like saying MANkind and is more respectful than saying 'it'. And no, we dont think God is male as there is no relevance in gender when talking about such a being.

Please, I'm not trying to start a flame or provoke you, just trying to answer your question and express my point of view. I would love to hear yours. :)

Oh no, if this were a flame war, my posts would be twice as long :D.

What you said is exactly what I am saying. I have never seen any continent other than North America, nor any states in the U.S. besides California, Arizona, and Nevada. Am I to believe that other states exist? For my theory on this as I have already drafted in times past, I can send you The Genesee Project, which states that none of you people really exist. Nothing besides So-Cal exists...

On a slightly more serious note, seeing as I have only witnessed such places, how am I to know of the existence of others until I have been there? Such is akin to Schroedinger's Cat Hypothesis: until I observe, interpret, comprehend, how can I know? How can I understand? True enough I have seen pictures, people, stories and songs enough to lead me to believe there are other places than my encapsulated world, but such could be an elaborate hoax. Truman Show anyone? :D Hence I do take many a thing upon a faith, I did not wish to imply I do not. Simply, nothing we learn, objectively, is true. Nothing exists beyond our facets of understanding what exists. To attempt to supercede those facets with extraneous theorems has always been a method of mankind, be it through science or religion.

However, what I see in my daily life perhaps give me a bias. I see across the street from my high school Western Baptists handing out flyers to children, telling them to convince their parents to come go to their church. I see these same Baptists handing out flyers and cartoons to kids at the Elementary School down the street from where I live. It sickens me to watch kids, 6-10 years old, being handed religious propaganda in order for these people to gain a larger congregation. Hand the flyers to the parents, not to a generation barely able to comprehend multiplication, let alone the aspects of universal existence.

I see protesters blocking the Biotechnical Convention in San Diego, many of whom take the role of a "Don't Play God" aspect. Playing God? We cannot alter the growth and production of plants and animals? Well someone had better tell the farmer who reaped the seeds wheat crop and forcefully planted them again in rows, or had his chickens lay eggs, then hatch the eggs and put another generation of chickens into slave labor. Certainly many natural aspects should be taken into consideration, such as the life cycle of the Monarch Butterfly, but to attempt to halt the wheels of progress on the basis of moralistic humanism is a plague to the global good of humanity. Perhaps if God didn't want us to tamper with the production of wheat, he'd send a little food the way of the millions upon millions of starving children around the world instead of expecting us to sit on the edge of a technology capable of supporting them and not using it because that would be infringing on his territory.

We dominate over other species every day, we ARE gods as far as earth is concerned. Billions of ignorant gods, flinging our fireballs at eachother instead of working together for a common good. Just think about it for a while, think what is best for humanity as a whole, and do something to help your Brothers, no matter what your Father would say to discourage you.

Amon-Ra

Amon-Ra, the reason for our disagreement is rather fundamental. You believe that your mind and body are the only tools that you have by which to perceive and understand the universe; I disagree. I believe that man also has a soul, which has a sense of its own. This sense is what is often termed the sixth sense; a means by which we as human beings perceive the non-material (i.e., the spiritual). This is to me the true definition of faith -- which is not the same thing as belief. Faith is a means of knowing something to be true which is not directly verifiable by the five senses of the body. It is through this sense that manipulation of the spiritual realm takes place. There are millions of verifiable experiences of the supernatural; I have had many in my own life. It is hard, if not impossible, to explain these from a purely materialistic viewpoint.

Good point Capstone, what people call sixth sense is a part of us (ie. the soul) which we cannot define and comprehend in a physical 'worldly' sense. It is not a matter of getting in tune with our souls as we are the soul, and the biomechanical machine we call our body is only temporary for this life as we all know.

Amon-Ra --> "However, what I see in my daily life perhaps give me a bias." Again this is your perception of what is happening. From another persons point of view they (the Western Baptists) could be handing out the pamphlets for the benefit of the children, in a society which generally has the 'every man for himself' mentality. This could be 'more' correct (or it may not be). My point being that you believing in your own self discovery, will only make you believe in things of life in your own bias way, which may not be necessarily whole or true. In order to open all pathways of self discovery in life (self being all, as all are one and one are all) you must properly investigate all aspects of a subject and then draw conclusions with an open mind. I have found my true faith in Christianity ie. in God, through being open minded and by searching. Look through all the superficial aspects and find the true source in whatever it may be in life. If you see one religious person doing something wrong acording to you, that is the individuals choice and not what all religious people stand for.

About people stoping 'progress' through protesting against cloning and other biomedical aspects etc. etc. I never heard any religios group protesting about altering plant production or animal production when it comes to benifit for all... but 'progress' can only be claimed so far. Cloning any form of life, especially humans is wrong by many peoples books religious or not. You cannot clone another living being. Everything has the right to live as an individual, unmolested in their natural form. We inhibit habitats and natural lifestyles of many living things in the name of progress, but to manipulate their very physical identity from before they're born is a crime to whomever you may whish to call it - 'mothernature' God, HUMANkind ;) etc.

One question to anyone who would like to give their opinion. If there is no God and a God did not create the Earth, how did all come into being? The big bang theory is incomplete as any biology student would know, all living things must originate from other living things to put it bluntly. It raises the question of which came first the chicken or the egg? which this theory leaves unanswered. But who believes in the big bang as no one has seen it ;)

I better stop rattling my bone box before I'm labled as a Confucious wannabe.

Peace.

Your points are true enough, indeed, both Capstone and Monk-

In regards to a sixth sense, certainly it is plausable to exist beyond the means i use, but the means i use suit me well enough. i, personally, have no need for anything beyond.

My view on the matter of influencing children truly lies in my fundamental belief that ANYONE has the right to do ANYTHING that is within their power. Is this not true? Anything you are capable of you are entitled to attempt to do, such is a fundamental right of living. Any opposition to you performing that action then also has the right to try and stop you, or punish you as they see fit for performing that action. I can, it is my right by birth, go out, find someone, and shoot them in the head. By being capable of doing such a thing it is my right. Then, the opposition can find me, handcuff me, take me to jail, prosecute me in court, find me guilty, and place me in a cell. Everyone is entitled to do WHATEVER they please, its simply a matter of overcoming opposition. Many people have personal oppositions, such as morals, codes of honor or ethics, etc., that would prevent them from doing such things. IMO that is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but additionally IMO to attempt to IMPOSE those codes onto someone else is not. Teach, guide, but do not rob children of their free will. To rob anyone of their free will is the gravest injury one can inflict, far worse than death.

Thus the people handing out the flyers have every right to target children. They have every right to practice whatever they wish. I am simply a part of their opposition.

Amon-Ra

[This message has been edited by Amon-Ra (edited July 01, 2001).]