So, recently, in the Random Babbling Post we've had some prolonged chatter about Goths. Are you? Or is he? Etc etc. The following site: http://blood-dance.net/goth/grant.html came into mention and people began to notice they were Goth. How surprising. According to a veteran and self-proclaimed defender of Gothic orthdoxy, these here points signify a strong chance of your being Goth:
You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like) Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange You like museums and cultural centers You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent) You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own You don't just reject something because you don't understand it You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like You are not afraid of the unknown You are not afraid of the dark You are afraid of mediocrity
In accordance to above, I'm a pureblood. I don't even have to mention that I'm exceptionally intelligent, overwhelmingly wise and deeply insightful, let alone magnificently creative :rolleyes: . Oh well, but how pity I don't feel any urgent need to be myself. In truth do I say, I don't care. Express myself? Express thoughts, emotions, feelings. But express oneself? As grass is green, that is ridiculous. To express myself sounds more or less as correct as to express a hung-over male Indian elephant with a pink true lover's knot tied on his head and a thorn in the rear.

What's even worse, I'm not strongly inclined to associate. In fact, I'm quite sick of groups and subcultures and sick to death of movements. I'd rather just sit at my PC desk.

Then goes black. Yea, it has some special touch. Black and white. A little hint of red or in the direction of red also serves well. At parties, I tend to appear in cuffed black trousers and a half-unbuttoned white French-cuffed shirt with silver cufflinks over a black turtleneck blouse. Anyway, I do dress "as I damn well please", then again, I don't really strive to dress as I damn well please. I just dress as I dress and let's leave it at that.

Perhaps I even have the infamous fixation on death. Have you read my poems? There are only two in English and both are here in CS, so you probably have. You may refer to there for a definition of fixation on death.

And may Saint Caffeine save me from Romantics, both old and New alike. And everything New starting with a capital "n".

Apparently, I'm actually not Goth. What about you? Well, and perhaps you would also like to share some other thoughts. Well, do.

[ January 05, 2004, 17:25: Message edited by: chevalier ]

That list basically, with the exception of entry 2 ("Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange") describes *everyone* who is currently or has taken a fine arts or liberal arts degree :rolleyes:

That makes a lot of goths.

Actually, I take issue with this one: "You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know"

Most goths I know, look just like each other.

That list was written by a Goth, a rather self-important and pretentious one at that. This basically says, "If you're more artistic, sophisticated, intelligent and misunderstood than everyone else, then you're a Goth."

Here's my list, according to my impression of almost every "goth" I've ever met in person, which is quite a few. I used to live in Utah, which is crawling with Goths.

I wear black, black, and more black. I dye my hair black and wear eye shadow. I hate you. Robert Smith is god. You don't understand him like I do. I listen to Skinny Puppy, Sisters of Mercy, and other bands who's names freak out my parents. No, really...I hate you. I think carving things into my arm with a razor blade is a perfectly healthy form of self expression. I'm selectively malnourished. I'm not a sheep, like you. I hang out in coffee shops and scribble poetry about how much life sucks. The Crow is the best movie ever. You couldn't possibly fathom the depths of my blackened, tortured soul. And if you do...I love you. I wish I lived in a Tim Burton movie. Except the tretcherous "Big Fish." Only one calorie, not Goth enough. I've had dental vampire fangs made for me, which I wear every day except Halloween. Did I mention I hate you?

No Chev, you're not a Goth. :D

are you people serious??? the whole "goth" thing is for people who just can't get along with normal society.

Hmmm... Sounds like the list was made by someone who figured the world would be nicer if there were more goths and gothettes around. He could start a 'goth organisation', and use the phone book as a member list.

There's as much definitions being goth as there are goths... oh, wait. If we follow all the definitions, there is no spo... goths. :p

But hey... not getting along with normal society is a GOOD thing.

If you disargree with me, you're stupid. :p
(j/k)

According to Chev, that would make me a Goth, except I'm nowhere near being a Goth, I'm nothing put a stoner punk/skateboarder/hockey player.

I'm often accused of being a Goth. but I don't see how.

I wear black a lot - yeah? So? I don't like fashion, despise pink and don't like things that show off too much. I like weaponry - yeah... so do a lot of people on here, they aren't goths I like silver/gothic jewelry - wost of it is like weaponry... or shiny I write morbid poems, stories, lyrics and the how - not all the time... just most of it... Nobody understands me - yeah right, some people understand me, most people don't because I'm weird/different from most people at school or whatever I don't give a damn - Everyone has times when they just don't care Why bother? - somes things I just don't bother with, fashion, boring work, etc, why bother? it will only change or stop. I'm self conscious - but don't give a damn what I wear (PINK/SHORT - NO WAY). And what is ahe point of doing something so dull and pointless? Someone else who sees the point of it can do it instead.
I don't see how that makes me a goth

The Crow is an awesome movie!

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

:p :p

Goth or not, just let people be. Every social stereotype is annoying, be it redneck jocks, inbred hicks, gen y-ers, mathematical nerds, christian fundamentalists with no brains etc, etc. Less than ten posts are in and I already see goth bashing.

Pretentious? This label is not exclusive to 'goths'. I've known a few morons who quote from a truly idiotic book with 5 letters in its title, begins with a 'b' and ends with an 'e', take the myths inside as truth, act all high and mighty and self-righteous while oppressing the views of others. And they think that they're so 'intelligent' and 'enlightened' because of it.

Therefore goths = group mentioned above as far as pretentiousness is concerned. Of course, goths do not force their views on others as much as that group.

Besides, makeup in the form of dark eyeshadow and lipstick, etc is far more presentable to the eye than bulging bloodshot eyes and foam at the corner of the mouth.

Live and let live, people. [Of course, if I've offended any particular group with my last statement, remember, according to you, I'm going to burn in hell for eternity so take some consolation in that fact.]

@Benanthalin: it's according to that guy, not me ;)

Apparently, all the best in the world of art is Goth ;)

What the guy keeps saying, looks like "The real Goths aren't really all that Goth, you see. And those that are very Goth aren't really Goths. Just take my word on that we're fine guys.".

And then I go take a look at the rest of his site. What do I see? Well, just see yourselves. Goooth-ness! ;)

I'm exaggerating a bit, for the purpose of fun, of course (just so no one thinks I'm actually bashing a group I'm not bashing at a given moment ;) ). The guy does have some valid points, it's only his attitude and the way he presents them. As a history ubergeek (you have to take my word on all grades & honours ;) ) and a freelance artist's son, I wonder how much they know about the real Gothic. Granted, some of them have degrees where appropriate but this can't be said about the whole movement. Not that I care strongly, it just amuses me a bit, earning a cynical smile.

For some people, apparently, writing a morbid poem makes you an expert in Gothic mystique. How the world is simple :rolleyes:

Back to the stereotyping, though. Let's have some fun :D

[ January 05, 2004, 23:31: Message edited by: chevalier ]

Let's simplify the thing to: "If you're smart and cool like us, then you're one of us. And if so, we can get together sometime and say how not smart and not cool people not like us are."

(Okay, I guess I'm not making much of a point agreeing with pretty much everyone here. :o )

I'm in the process of searching for another site I found whilst researching the Gothic subculture some time ago for obscure reasons. There are a multitude of websites on the subject, with most of the Goths agreeing with each other on what is and what is not Goth, with only the critics taking the stereotype to its extreme.

Here is one site, not the one I was actually looking for... http://www.religioustolerance.org/goth.htm

Hmm, wadda ya know? Another site which is still not the one I'm looking for... http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm

Ah hah! Here it is: http://www.whitefantom.com/goth/

*Wonders vaguely if he is taking this thread too seriously, but seeing that everyone else seems to be as well, it looks fine*

So seeing that these people are consistent with their views, they may just all know what they're talking about when they call themselves Goth, and not just be people twisting the stereotype to suit their own idea.

Cease your Goth bashing, follow the logic of Shura.

[ January 06, 2004, 11:15: Message edited by: Aikanaro ]

The so-called 'Goth" culture (I say so-called because they call themselves that, while having actually very little to do with even one of the Germanic Tribes, let alone any of the Goths) is mostly about negativity, it shows itself everywhere, you can sense it radiating off them.

Sure, some, or even many, may be intelligent or insightful or whatever, but they are unsure how to react to this in their situation, so they lash out, at others and themselves. Typically with Hate and Melancholy, Depression, Angst, or more commonly, feigned Apathy. They may have more of an understanding of some things than those they call out, but it is not complete, and this is evident in their behaviour, the enactment of thought. As I said before, it can be sensed from talking with one anyway.

They talk about Metaphysical ideals, yet root themselves in the Material or Physical through their actual beliefs, thoughts, and actions. They may know they are doing the wrong thing at heart, and I'm sure that with about 80% it's mostly an act and they don't feel or think that way at all, they just pretend they do because it is their way of distancing themselves from what they dislike. But they have grown to dislike things too much, hence the negativity, and they really offer no solutions to their problems.

That's the main point, only despondancy (which is no surprise), no true desire or will for change, be it themselves or others. They truly are closer to those they say they despise, that is, putting on an act to impress others or fit in with their peers (whether another would say he is impressed is irrespective, irregarded, it is the correct reaction they are looking for, it is themselves they wish to impress) talking about things they don't understand (this irks me, given the subject matter), obsession with baser ideals (the fashion and clothing obsession, the violent thoughts, etc).

The black clothing helps with this. Black absorbs all the surrounding psychical energy, and this is usually what has been discarded, that is, peoples negative, melancholy, or violent thoughts, and it also prevents them from letting go of their own harboured resentments. In itself black clothing (or even thinking about the colour black enough) will work in the opposite direction to metaphysical ideals, it is the opposite, that is what it is.

I won't go into a big description here of the effects of various colours. Suffice it to say I can no longer wear black, It blurs and fuzzes my thinking and perceptions, makes it difficult to concentrate, feels out of phase physically. I only wear white clothing, very occasionally blue or even rarer grey, the other colours are rare indeed.

Now, I don't have anything against anyone who may call themselves such, just as I do not hold anything against any other person who's ideals differ to my own -as much as I may dislike them for it- it is simply where they are here and now, we all play our parts. Once you understand where these people are coming from, you can relate to them with further ease.

Edit: I wanted to add some clarification here. It is no doubt that when I say violent thoughts some of you may think I mean violent behaviour, or a wish to do violence, this is not the case, I mean anger- the root cause. This can also be passive-aggression. This is non-violence physically, but it is just as rooted in anger as the other, and can do as much damage to the enactor.

The problem with Goths is they are smart, yet not wise enough. They are to me more intelligent in ways than most, but they do not temper this knowledge, this understanding, with any behaviour rational to wisdom. they preach, yet they do little, and as I said, act in very similar ways, yet through different vehicles or media, a different source or output of the same basic thought-forms, than those they look down upon. Less materialistic perhaps, but no movement upwards, only sideways.

It is a shame that such insight, however limited, is wasted, and little or no ground is gained. But it takes time, and is a slow process. They have began to awake in their own way, the same as many others have also began the same process. I simply do not believe a 'Goth' would look at those others in the same light as they see themselves. This is an important point to mention.

[ January 06, 2004, 12:13: Message edited by: Manus ]

I agree Manus with your point on black clothing, i now have an excuse for performing less well at school then usual, the school uniform is completley black, almost, apart from the shirt which is white.

Anyway, back to the point about Goths hating "sheep", if they hate them so much, why are they becoming sheep themselves, by following what each other does etc... they are now sheep themselves so should try to steer away from the course they have chosen, yet they dont so they have already contradicted there faith.

*ponders whether anyone looked at his links at all, for he cannot recall any point in which anyone said that Goths as a whole hated 'sheep'.*

Saying so would be a massive generalisation, and I would like to know where you heard about this anti-sheepness...

Well according to Chev's sources, I think everybody would be considered a Goth.

Well according to Chev's sources, I think everybody would be considered a Goth.
Wow, you have an interesting view of humanity. The amount of people I know who would willingly write something creative on their own free will (IRL) is pitiously small. May even fit on one hand.

Well, from your link Aikanaro, it does indeed suggest quite a strong resentment for the rest of humanity, never does it refer to them as sheep, but the passive agressive stance is there.

It insinuates that everyone else cannot fathom that (sic) their lives are hopeless, that they have been brainwashed into becoming 'clean-cut suburbanites' and that everyone who doesn't like 'Goths' does so because they are either afraid or ignorant. The site I read is well worded, and it may indeed be subversive enough to seem innocent, but the inuendo is there and painfully obvious, as is the attitude I have come across with each of these individuals whom I have met. Another's faults does not make you superior, you may only be superior through your own merit.

There is definate disdain for those who are not like themselves, they are viewed as somehow less intelligent, the author refers to her own culture in an exceedingly elitist manner, and to all others as a misguided foolish mass.

...uncontrolled anger; patterns of chronic hitting, intimidating, and bullying behaviour; intolerance for differences and prejudicial attitudes; drug and alcohol use, affiliation with gangs; inappropriate access to, possession of, and use of firearms; and serious threats of violence. Most of these last warning signs tend to fit those who ostracize Goths rather than the Goths themselves.Now this is interesting as you have done the same thing. You say, that you could count the amount of people who could write something creative of their own free will on one hand, and yet you are at a place where many such examples exist. All these folk who are not necessarily trying desperately to actively and repeatedly display their disdain and rebellion from society, in a manner, if not designed, than in the fore-knowledge that it can, or will, be interpreted as offensive, nor who adopt a secular or elitist frame of mind, nor who have a pre-occupation with the macrebre and death. This is to me what seperates Goths from those others, not their 'tortured artistic genius'. Acceptance is not a constant refferal, nor a seeming obsession, it is acceptance. If you met someone constantly writing pornographic novels, watching such movies and reading such magazines, and discussing carnal acts repeatedly, you would think they had a pre-occupation, not an acceptance.

Goths aren't the only ones with two braincells to rub together, and for a group who claims such intelligence, acts of immaturity, despite the actions of others -who may act the exact same way, I do not deny this, but it is no excuse- are duly considered. These kids need to grow up. I have said before that many of their views may have merit, but their actions do not.

Just remember the one who wrote that surprisingly flattering list was hosted on a domain called 'blood-dance'.

There are better ways to act upon a disagreement, more productive ways of making of point. Effective ways to try and improve oneself, instead of indulging your own aesthetic and idealistic notions, without seeming to take any of those ideals further than the point of chastising your neighbour.

I don't have anything against them, truth be told it's more likely they have something against me, but I sympathise, empathise, I do, but that doesn't change a thing. These kids, they may hold themselves aloof from the pettiness they see below them, and I commend them for it, but they need to remember that they're no higher than anyone else, and there are a lot of others who do the same thing. All will, in time.

Edit: I only came here because I thought it was about said 'real goths' -obviously not completely, but to at least a signifigant extent; I hope I haven't side-tracked it too far, or made the conversation too serious. If I have, forgive me, and I shall desist lest it be moved to the AoDA.

Hmm, probably wouldn't be too bad an idea to have this moved to the AODA, it is far too full of America threads. A random debate pulled from the depths of no where might make it slightly more interesting.


It insinuates that everyone else cannot fathom that (sic) their lives are hopeless, that they have been brainwashed into becoming 'clean-cut suburbanites' and that everyone who doesn't like 'Goths' does so because they are either afraid or ignorant.
No one I can recall in any of the sites I linked said anything at all about their lives being hopeless, nor that anyone was being brainwashed. Maybe they have good reason for believing that people don't generally like Goths because of fear or ignorance, the Sunlight in the Shadows site shows many examples of Goths being discriminated against, so maybe it's the Goths that are stereotyping in this case. Those who do not like them must be afraid of ignorant, because of the actions of a few. All Goths must be psychotic killers, because of the actions of a few.

I noticed that they focussed more on what they were good at then how sucky everyone else was, putting emphasis on the fact that they enjoyed writing and whatnot else, rather than on that other people can't/don't do.


There is definate disdain for those who are not like themselves, they are viewed as somehow less intelligent, the author refers to her own culture in an exceedingly elitist manner, and to all others as a misguided foolish mass.
Mayhap you should see Shura's earlier post. It includes pretty much every other culture and religion in existence. If you did not think that yours was the best, you would hardly be there now, wouldn't you? Not that I really noticed so much of that, but I'm refering to the Sunlight in the Shadows page, maybe you are refering to the other one? Or am I seriously missing something here?

For the next section, did you not notice the 'IRL' in brackets (meaning In Real Life). I was simply rebutting a comment which seemed very wrong, after all, if I can only count that many people, then not everyone is Goth.

I also don't think that the rebellion thing is a necessary part of it all. The quiz didn't mention rebellion (not even in a cleverly phrased way) to my knowledge. If it did, quote it.

If people wish to write things which could be interpretated as offensive, then that is their business. A lot of people refer to death a lot in their writings, by your standards are they all elitist rebels? I suppose there goes most of the writing market under the label of 'elitist rebel obsessed with death'. (Though I may have misinterpreted what you said, not sure)


These kids need to grow up. I have said before that many of their views may have merit, but their actions do not.
Which specific actions are you refering to? Not everyone needs to be like everyone else, if people want to wear all black on a regular basis, why should anyone care, and how can that be seen as immature (just assuming you wer refering to that, as you didn't specify anything)


Just remember the one who wrote that surprisingly flattering list was hosted on a domain called 'blood-dance'.
Hmm, nice, catchy domain name, would you not agree?


Eh, I think that's enough ranting for the moment. A pity, I do like making long posts which will be swatted down the next time someone else comes along. Need more non-political threads in the AODA...

Read Death Rabbits post where he mentions what the Goth check list should be and you will see where i got the sheep idea from.

To some people I am a goth, and to people that know more about it, I'm not. I dress in black and wear "weird makeup" and listen to music they think is gothic. I don't see myself as a goth, since I don't like to be put in partitions (?). I love to write poems and stories, I love to draw, take photos, create and see, beautiful things in life. I have become obsessed with beautiful things. That is why I dress in black. Pale skin and very dark, glittering eyes creates some kind of mysterious look which is very beautiful. To me.
But the music I listen to isn't that "gothic". I love metal, hardrock, punk and blues. Goth comes from the punk(rock?) and is very similar to "postpunk".
I don't think you can learn how to be a "goth". Goth is just a term that some people like to use when they put you in different partitions(?). Personally I hate when people do that, because every human being is special and we cannot be put into certain groups labeled with a common name just because we have some similarities.
Really. Noone can be a perfect goth since we all have different standars on what a True Goth is.

I already mentioned why I always wear black in the Random Babbling Post: terrible color coordination.

Besides, the blood from the gaping wounds of my victims will not be too obvious. :evil: :D

Unfortunately, though this world is an elitist one. The smart/strong rule the weak/dumb, and have a right and obligation to put them down and mock them. By, allah/jebus/buddha, in fact, it is the prerogative of the elite to mock the sheep. Benefits of superiority and all.

Why should morons be treated respectfully and their views pandered to? They should go down the toilet along with the rest of the sewage with no energy wasted in false kindness and tact.

Why should the intellectuals be obliged to aid and advise the lesser beings? We have our own lives to lead and if I only have the time to mock your stupidity but not correct or improve it, be grateful for my attention!

A side point here: for the religious, simply replace any term that has to do with intelligence with 'holiness' and any term that has to do with stupidity with 'sin'/'sinners'.

Like what Aikanaro said, every group thinks they're the best. After all, I'm going to burn in hell forever because I don't belong to a certain intellectually challenged group, right? So those who aren't in my 'group' are idiots/inferior/evidence of devolution back to the age of neanderthals according to the same principle.

@Eilonwy: Noble sentiments. However, 'partitioning' is a neccesary part of every society for the good of humanity. Humans naturally divide themselves into social groups and classify others accordingly.

Personally, I think that individuals below a certain IQ should not be allowed to breed but that's not the main point I'm addressing here.

Another sidenote: Makeup? Eyeshadow? Black lipstick? Self-mutilation and S&M? Whatever floats your boat, pal. It's not any worse than baggy, colorful trousers and 'gangsta' fixation. It's not worse than bright pink outfits with 'cute' accessories like soft toys. It's not worse than suspenders and pocket calculators [Yes, this look probably does not exist anymore. Just take it as an example, right?]
It's certainly better than nametags, bibles, wooden stakes, pitchforks, and foaming mouths though.

What is wrong with 'elitism'? It is the natural order.

Therefore, goths = bad is wrong. If anyone insists on that equation, remember that it also applies to any other group.

Shura, you are such an angry man.

I know you have incredible disdain for religion, but if you will insist on mocking them, at least try to hold to the truth. ;)

No where in any religion is it a perogative to mock the 'sheep', or to stand on your own superority, in fact, it is stressed that you are no better than anyone else, that you are not superior, and if you were to mock anyone, that you are less than them.

In fact, it is a perogative of buddhism not to try and convert a single other person. And I know that no religion has the belief that you will go to 'hell' (allthough I believe myself that is a misperception) due to a lack of a particular theolgical faith, only due to other actions. This, along with many of the excuses you have cited, are the misguided belief concocted by men and women, and have no basis in the words of their prophets or the words in their books, and they belong to a minority of that religion at best.

It is not about false kindness or tact. It is about genuine kindness. It is about the realisation that everyone is as they are due to purpose. If you are to mock someone, then it is true that some good may come about. It may be shock enough for change for the better, or it may be a lesson to others not to follow your bad example. But the pivotal reason (for you persoanlly I think, I do not think you could empathise with any other), is that by doing such a thing you harm yourself.

This can be felt physically. I am not talking about guilt, but I am talking about the reaction our thoughts have upon us. Talk to a mystic, one who has focused their thoughts and is able to percieve their effects very subtley and they will tell you it is true, if you do not belive the sensations you can feel for yourself.

In your efforts to ask us to accept or to no longer generalise 'Goths', or at least try to understand them themselves instead of continuing a belief in a negative sterotype, you have done the same thing, to a larger extent I believe, with several religions, deliberately.

Yes. Each group may think they are the best, this is to be expected, as it is expected for many of these groups to mock others. But this does not make it right, nor does it excuse us when we do the same. The point I was trying to make is that such 'Goths' are not as intellectualy superior to as many as they would believe themselves. Nor are they superior in wisdom, acting with such blatant hypocrity, nor are they superior morally, doing the very things they critisze others for. this is bad in itself, but those actions, irregardless of whether they critisze them in others, are immoral in themselves as well.

No-one was asking any 'intellectuals' to lead and guide lesser beings. You have heighlighted what I said I think. Unwarrented disdain. Besides, I would not view assisting another as such a burden. Why do you think yourself so much more important? If you have the ability to help, and such help is asked, barring moral considerations, why should you not?

You would do best to let go of your rage, I do not understand how you can consistently hate others so. You say many things about those you believe are lacking in intelligence. It is a good thing that those more intelligent than you, those wiser than you, or those more ethical than you, do not all feel the same way.

Shura, I agree, this fixation on black clothes is no worse than any of the other examples you have cited. But it is no better than any of them either. You critisize those groups not like yourself. I am only critisizing the reasons and effects for these things, I know why it is done and I do not fault for it, I only say what it may be caused by, and what it can cause in return.

The same can apply to Self-Mutilation. If one may understand why this occurs, we can realise more damge is existant, and more is further caused, than the purely physical. If we cannot learn from our mistakes than all we can hope for is that someone else does, and be an example. If you would cite blind acceptance, I would suggest you ask yourself why you can accept this, and not any other.

Aikanaro, I don't want to get into a large debate here over quotes, but I shall do so if you have asked it.

They were brought up to be happy, money-making suburbanites, but something went wrong-these young adults rebelled from their parent’s clean-cut, sanitized visions of the future and receded into dark coffee houses to read poetry and talk with like-minded youth about the hopelessness and emptiness of materialistic life. They were the Beatniks of the Reagan era, and adopted the "tortured artist" black attire of the 50’s Beat generation as well.Rebellion for it's own sake, as to congratulta each other on how hopeless they think everything is serves little purpose.

"The people who have set themselves so firmly against Goth kids ... have yet to grasp that the suffocating perfection they present is the best argument for the styles they're decrying,"And again, more about non-conformity than any desire for improvement. I'm not saying that everyone should 'conform' I don't belive that. What I belive is that sheer rebellion for it's own sake is a waste of energy.

Goths everywhere could relate exceedingly similar incidents. "To have to fear being who you are because other people are ignorant is a sad and scary thing," Unfortunately, it would seem that most parents and teachers don’t quite get to that part in their hysterical panic to assume the worst.Hence the afraid or ignorant comparison.

I allready listed the signs she said were evident of one who did not like Goths, very derisive, yet phrased in a way to seem innocent, as is the majority of the article. As I said, passive-aggressive.

This is the main problem with the article. The author does bring up some evry good points, and many of the things she says may be true. But they are said in a belittling disdainful way, which belies her attitudes, as all our writing does. If you truly wish I shall give some examples of this, where she has recounted her past experiences in a very sarcastic and derogatory manner, but I do not think it is necessary, it can be reaslised in the tone of the writing for the majority of the work.

I do not know what you mean by 'in real life'. How is writing at home on paper any more real than writing via your keyboard? The physical copy of the work may be more real, and it is true, I would prefer that myself, but it says nothing of their willingness or aptitude for such work. The reality is the thoughts inside their heads, and their enactment of it, not whether it is written by pen or ASCII.

As to the quiz itself and rebellion, well, apart from; "You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV";
"You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know";
"You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you" and;
"You are afraid of mediocrity"
Which all show both rebellion and insinuate disdain, implying that others are the opposite, the other points, namely; "You don't just reject something because you don't understand it";
"You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like";
"You are not afraid of the unknown";
"You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes";
"You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers" and;
"You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own"
Seem to imply that there is some sort of discrepancy between the intellectual, moral, or rational abilities of those who are not Goths. Pleases, everyone has commented on this. I fail to believe you could not recognize the tone, and are therefore arguing with me for its own sake.


But before I continue, I think you have seriously misquoted me. The point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of people who are 'creative' for want of a better word, yet do not belong to the 'Goth' culture, nor do they seem to wallow in their own aesthetic satisfaction, a dangerous past-time.

This is immature. Hypocrity is immature, rebellion for it's own sake with little effort for improvement is immature, mocking others is immature, impressing yourself with your own sense of superiority is immature, I talked about this a lot before as well. It is immature to be so melodramatic, to place such importance on such notions yet not live by them, to be so enthralled by music, not for rest or for philosophical meaning, but the same way listless fans flock to Britney Spears or Eminem, or the New Age or Classical music for that matter either. Such fascination must also apply to movies, computers, philosophy, and politics as well, I do not deny this. It applies to anything upon one which is fascinated, obsessed ,dependant, you are using different words I do not know how to convey what it is I mean. It is a sign of immaturity that any of us are even here, I do not deny this. But that's the point. Goths do.

Using the domain name blood-dance is both a sign of immaturity, and one of a pre-occupation with such material, which is in itself a sign of immaturity. Once one recognizes immaturity, one can work upon it. What point does something hold once recognized if no move towards improvement is made?

As to your comment that "every other culture and religion in existence" thinks itself is the best. Possible true, but not quite, nevertheless, it does not excuse such behaviour on any of their parts, just because someone else does it, does not mean that it is ok. I am not trying to say that Gothic culture is any worse or wrong than anyone else's, only that it is no different, I am trying to explain them from a point of view distanced from the dogma it entails, as does any cultural or philosophical doctrine.


EDIT: This has become too critical I think, which was not what I was originally trying to do. I have no problem with Goths, I'm sure they are decent people. They are just smart kids who don't quite know how to act in accordance with their new perceptions and ideals I think, troubled perhaps, but I think no more so than many of the other groups of kids out there.

I'm not going to respond to this anymore because to continue defending my arguments will only continue to paint these kids in a worse light, which is not what I was trying to do. Merely make an observation upon this as any other. Most of the youth today as it's problems, and all are immature, what I was trying to say is that goths are the same as everyone else. I think I can agree with Aikanaro and Shura on live and let live, and I don't really think this is of vital importance.

[ January 07, 2004, 04:00: Message edited by: Manus ]

"No where in any religion is it a perogative to mock the 'sheep', or to stand on your own superority, in fact, it is stressed that you are no better than anyone else, that you are not superior, and if you were to mock anyone, that you are less than them.

In fact, it is a perogative of buddhism not to try and convert a single other person. And I know that no religion has the belief that you will go to 'hell' (allthough I believe myself that is a misperception) due to a lack of a particular theolgical faith, only due to other actions. This, along with many of the excuses you have cited, are the misguided belief concocted by men and women, and have no basis in the words of their prophets or the words in their books, and they belong to a minority of that religion at best." - Manus

So I guess that all those passages in the Book of Vile Dumbness [BOVD] about the superiority of 'righteousness' and the condemnation of those who do not conform to these concepts are figments of my imagination?

That some bad acid junkie known as St. Paul the Divine did not write some really hate-mongering crap in the last book of the BOVD? And that was only one example out of dozens. They must have been the minority, seeing as they only made up like 95% of the BOVD.

Well. Deary me.

I'm sure the Buddhists have been fighting with the Hindus for years because they're such kind and sweet-natured pacifists.

To place oneself over those inferior is the natural order of things. Should a leader be stupid or weak? Should we elect a retard as ruler of the world simply because he's 'such a nice and kind person'? [Don't get me started on Dubya.]

The stronger/smarter person definitely deserves to be more important than fools or weaklings. Think of the gene pool and the betterment of humanity.

Why should I help? I have better things to do with my life. Do I owe fools anything at all? Perhaps a quick death but I'm going to begrudge them even that.

I do not look down on people unless I'm spitting on them. And they've got to be pretty low down for me to do that. Hence, when I deem someone to be a moron, Lo and Behold, he/she usually is.

Of course, if you want to go around helping every beggar, do so by all means. Each to their own and all.

Know that not everyone subscribes to your concepts of 'kindness', Manus. To think so is 'immature', a term you seem to like using. To think that not subscribing to this concept is wrong is 'immature'. Get over yourself. There are people with an E in their alignment and nothing can remove us from our place on the top of the world order.

"It is a good thing that those more intelligent than you, those wiser than you, or those more ethical than you, do not all feel the same way." -Manus

Hold onto that thought by all means. If it helps you sleep better at night like a cuddly fuzzy teddy bear, I'll not be the icky mean baddy and snatch it away.

Cough*immature*Cough

Cough*selfdelusion*Cough

There will surely be idiots and miscreants everywhere, goths included. However, I do not see how the priest that rapes the altar boy and then preaches "teh righteousness of teh l0rd!!!11eleven!" to a flock of sheep is any less hypocritical than that guy in makeup who constructs bad poetry railing against society before buying a burger from MacDonalds.

If society can accept these priests, I'm sure they can accept writers of really bad verse.

You do not understand why I can hate so consistently? That just shows you're 'immature'.
I have transcended hate and rage. Lesser concepts for lesser beings.

Self-mutilation: If some guy wishes to cut himself on the forearm with a blade, well, it's HIS forearm. If some priest/pastor/dungheap wants to burn my books because they're 'satanic'. Well. Let's just say that his children will become orphans shortly before I sacrifice them to Bhaal. :evil:

The point is this. Goths are not doing any harm at all. Yes, they can be bloody annoying. But they're not hurting anyone with their sneers and whining beyond inciting an urge to backhand them across the face and to send them back to poetry 101. There are more harmful groups out there which are praised and lauded due to the fact that there will always be more stupid people than smart people. So if you can accept these groups, why not goths?

BTW: Bhaal will be pleased with the soul of that anti-abortionist campaigner I dedicated to him last week.

Do goths suck? Yes. But no more than any other group.

"Blood-dance" immature? Oh my! I'm sure "Sorcerer's Place" can't be very mature as well! What kind of name is "Dungeons and Dragons" anyway? How horrendous! Get over it. :rolleyes:

Preoccupation with things related to the term "Blood-Dance" is not mature? Refer to above point.

"What point does something hold once recognized if no move towards improvement is made?" - Manus

Go back to the beginning of my post. No one owes anyone else anything beyond basic civility. So what if all the goths do is complain ineffectually and mope? It's their mouths. You can simply turn a deaf ear to them if you want to. Now, the fundamentalist screaming and railing at me with his assorted lynch mob behind him might just be that bit more difficult to ignore.

So you'll excuse me while I send them to Bhaal's embrace.

:evil:

Friend, why is it that you are insulted by what I say?

I know that people abuse the names of their religions, I know that some indeed decry that all others are condemend to hell, that some lay fasle claim to religions of peace while waging war, that the words of the Masters are often misinterpreted. This does not mean that this is what those religions are.

I place no more fault at the hands of Goths than I do at any other, this is what I have been saying all along. I have agreed with you that other groups are just the same, this has been my point as well. In fact, in my previous post, I did state that it is just as nieve to be posting here as it is to be doing any of those things. I have said all this allready, I do not see where you base your argument.

I am aware that not everyone subscribes to my own morals, and I would not expect them too, or try to make them, or even think that they should. I have said this as well. That is intrinsic to my own beliefs.

Why do you think you are so persecuted? You speak of lynch mobs, you refute my statement that those you would deem your superiors do not ask for your death, you say that a leader is there to dominate, to be superior, and not to lead. I am sorry you hold these views, I only ask why it is that you feel such resentment being directed towards yourself?

Shura, I have never said I accept any of those groups any more than the Goths, so called, I shall again say that I deem them all, that I deem us all, in the same boat. Never have I said I tolerated one more than the other. I was simply making an observation on a cultural psyche, as I have done with other groups. I did in fact say much praise of them as well. I fail to see how the faults of one are relevant to the faults of another. They do not change, nor excuse, a thing.

And I have never said that self-mutilation hurt anyone else. You should have noticed that I said the true problem was one to the person themselves, and not necessarily physical.

I must ask you, why the constant refferal to murder? Have you murdered anyone? Have you given a human sacrifice? Have you commited any act to gain dark powers? I doubt it, so why say you have? I do not think that pretending to be a satanist makes you any more intelligent, or more deserving, than anyone else.

Shura, I do understand why you think, or feel if you wish, this way, and I do understand why you belive that you owe nothing to anyone else. The reason I say these things is not for them, you owe it to yourself. This applies to those we are discussing as well. I also know you shall not believe me when I say this, that you shall perhaps mock or deride my beliefs. I expect it, and I do not fault you for it.

When you have some more experience with life you may begin to understand what it is I am saying, and let go of your current responses, seeing them in a different light. Until then, I sincerely do wish you well in your endeavours, and I hope that you may find what it is you seek.

On the other hand, if YOU had more experience with life you would come around to MY way of thinking.

Sure, you can act all lofty and holier than thou. Hope you can hold onto that illusion cause it'll be a sad thing when it cracks. Hopefully, you'll be one of those slow learners who never have to suffer disillusionment.

And that whole thing about black clothing absorbing negativity and only wearing white clothing etc etc crap was hilarious in a flush-every-point-you-make-and-everything-you-say-down-the-toilet-as-far-as-validity-is-concerned way.

But enough of that.

My point is this. Goths are not any less excusable?

Whining incessantly in makeup is not any less excusable than forcing a woman to keep an unwanted and unborn child against her will? It is not any less excusable than depriving a homosexual of human rights simply because of his/her preference because "teh l0rd says0r so!!1"?

I'm glad you think that way. Luckily for the world, there will always be people like me aroud who will make sure such individuals suffer 'accidents', removing them from the collective gene pool and improving humanity in general. So. Try not to stand so close to where the train will arrive in the subway after making your views public. Some civic minded fellow might get an urge to better humanity all of a sudden, although train accidents do make a big mess.

Likewise, I wish you all the best in your endeavors as well. And don't forget to bring your fluffy teddy bear with you and look both ways before you cross the road.

On an altogether different note, for I fear the last one has lost its music, 8-bit Theatre (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040108) settles the score.

I couldn't give two sh*** what I'm labelled as but as I've come to understand it, this is what I've been labelled as through the clothes I wear, music i Listen to, interests and hobbies, songs and poems I write, the way I act etc.

Greebo
Goth
Punk
Freak

Now of those four names, if I really did have to class myself, I think I would be a Goth. Now saying that I don't wear makeup ;) But seriously, If i really did have to, and you must understand that I'm not particularly interested in what I am now other than myself, then I probably would label meyself as a Goth.

Shura, it's amazing how you use the "it's his own arm"-so-leave-him-alone argument and then compare "whining in make-up" to "forcing a woman to keep an unwanted and unborn child against her will". A child is not a part of the mother's body, it's a separate entity whereby the action involves at least one external subject, whereby it's not an internal choice. Just like, for example, she's not allowed to kill, let's say, her husband if she gets bored with him and doesn't want him anymore. Homosexuals are not deprived of human rights, they're not allowed to adopt children together with a person of same sex and are not allowed to marry with any such person. They're free to marry a person of opposite sex and have and adopt children with him as they please and the law allows. Just like anyone. I don't see how those examples relate to Goths or even stereotyping in general, but even if speaking about broadly defined discrimination, they still aren't really valid.

I also fail to see a necessary connection between holding views different to yours and being delusional, or between agreeing with you and having much experience in life :rolleyes:

You, however, still make a good point about people who have nothing better to do than to throw labels around, and no life other than telling other people how to live theirs. Always ready to explain to you how and why they're better :rolleyes: Fanatics aren't in majority, fortunately. I believe, though that no one in this thread gets close to that.

[ January 08, 2004, 20:52: Message edited by: chevalier ]

I agree with Death Rabbit 100%.

Fully fledged Goths are freaky and to be honest, downright scary. Into depression, sadism and self mutilation. All of which is the domain of the morose and the sad.

They moan about being "misunderstood" yet make no effort to fit in, or get along with anyone else. They complain about not being accepted, yet are as bad as those they ***** at/about (if your not a Goth then you must be a sheep, just following the trends).

I follow fashion because I like fashionable clothes. I probably spend more money on that than anything else. Am I a sheep? No.

This whole "its their arm, let them do what they want" etc. is, frankly, the argument of the self obsessed etc, in my opinion.

They write poems about death, and how ****ty life is. They get depressed, don't make effort to enjoy of live life. They live in a cage of depression and sadism, which they themselves created. Do goths just love misery?

Illmater take their heart! ;)

Surely if you're depressed you cannot enjoy life. :nolike:

Concerning Self Mutilation (of which i know a fewpeople who cut themselves) well, perhaps they don't know of any other means to escape the pain and depression they are feeling.

As for loving misery, no they don't bloody well love misery. Writing poems about death and how crap life is, is a form of release. Its a way of expressing their current feelings in which they can't express it in another way, perhaps because others won't listen to them because they base their assumptions mainly on the clothes they wear, the music they listen to and the way they look.

And before any of you think of it, No I don't cut myself or do anything daft to myself.