All I have to say is 'remember what time of year it is.'

Now look at this.

South Africa Bans Santa Letters (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8141258%255E13762,00.html)

Oh, and I wouldn't go there if young children are around, but not for the usual reasons.

I actually understand that - if the post office issues things like that then it should give what the children ask for. If the children are young enough to believe in santa like that then it means the parents would have to buy what's on the list to maintain the illusion.

In our family we were always told to leave the letters by the tree because Santa always knew what we wanted and the letters were just to make sure he'd got it right.

Awwww, thats nasty. Well I suppose they have a point. :/

My mam told me to send the list to santa I had to throw it on the fire. No wonder I never got what I wanted :rolleyes:

That's just WRONG! I mean, if we get rid of Santa, who's next? The Easter Bunny? The Tooth Fairy? God? We aren't leaving our kids much magic in the world are we?

The magic and mystery of these beings was a huge part of my childhood and still is now. I mean, sure God is the only one of those I mentioned that I truly belive in but the others add to the enjoyment of having kids of your own.

Up here in the frozen north where you can practically walk the letters to him personally, (note: for all you future IOTWs out there, that was a joke) They have a system set up where they send the kids a form letter with the names of their siblings and family on it. Hey, when I was a kid, sure I thought it was odd that my letter looked and read exactly like my brothers' and sister's, but, "Hey", I thought, "the guy must get 50 thousand letters every day in December." Of course he'd have a system.

It does make sense though, seeing as it said nothing about "Santa" sending a letter back, it is a feasible solution. I heard about an address here in the U.S. that will send all the letters to a certain postmaster, who will, in turn, send a letter back. The parents are supposed to send a letter telling what on the list they are actually getting their child, that way the postmaster can tell the kid he won't be getting the presents he wanted because of some believable reason.

I.E. <Little Johnny> Dear Santa, I want a T-rex for Christmas. Love, Johnny.
<Santa> Ho Ho Ho Johnny, I would get you a T-rex (trust me, they're cool) but it wouldn't fit under the tree! And what kind of Christmas would that be if the T-rex got stuck in the Chimney?

(Maybe not like that but you get the idea...)

[ December 15, 2003, 20:07: Message edited by: dman18 ]

Wait...Santa isn't...he isn't real...?!?

I agree with what they have done because hope is a very fragile thing. If a child believes that his letter will be received by the "all magical Santa" who will in turn give him the gifts he truely wants, when he receives nothing what is he going to feel? Maybe that he has done something wrong and does not deserve the gift? Or maybe he will just feel forgotten because he is poor. In the least he may feel that there really is no Santa. So why encourage disappointment?

The families that can afford to give their children gifts from "Santa" will always find a way to make sure that he gets their letters. The families that cannot fulfill the illusion of Santa will find other ways of showing their families how they love them.

Christmas was spoiled for me after I was told Father Christmas wasn't real. Now I have a child myself I'll do the best to make sure he believes he is :)

It makes sense... but if the children are going to be disillusioned by not receiving the presents they request, then what if they can never contact Santa?

...It just seems that the government is taking it too seriously.

Sorry to bring your world crashing down Grey Magistrate, but he's not exactly real anymore.

Or is he???

At least this is a halt to commercialisation. I rather this than to keep lying to children, and the modern approach (including that such as sending the kids back fake letters and such) is deliberately misleading. The story of the original Saint Nicholas (and I assume that Kris Kringle was another such historical figure, but I can't say so for sure) is inspiring, as are the other folk-tales and pagan and christian religious teachings and traditions with which these figures were amalgamated, all are filled with meaning, and can be just as good for kids as any folk-story or fairy-tale can be (or as they used to be), but I don't think the modern twisted view of Santa Claus or Father Christmas holds any such value or worth, and is given to kids with a totally different approach than it was even a hundred, or a couple of hundred, years ago. Is this what we want to be doing?

I could go in depth of why I feel this way but I don't want to offend anyone or interfere about how they raise their children, as this is not really a matter of such heavy consequence as I would warrant to tell someone I think they are doing the wrong thing, as are some situations, just my opinion is all. Best wishes to you all.

Actually, I'll make sure my kids know Santa is made up, and I'd never tell 'em otherwise. Kids are confused enough these days - why make them suspect that their parents tell other well-meaning lies?

That said, they'll also have to watch Miracle on Thirty-Fourth Street quite a few times...

Children should be taught how to imagine - it is necessary. It's also necessary to discover that the things you believed as a child aren't all true. I believe a belief in Santa develops imagination, wonder, and critical thinking skills. It teaches that two things may be true at once, and that physical reality isn't necessarily the only reality. It's a wonderful part of childhood. Do you know anyone who was hurt because they believed in Santa? Do you know anyone who was really upset with the slow knowledge that he didn't really exist, except in the wondrous world of the imagination?

I hope my children will believe in Santa Clause, fairies, dragons, and magic all their lives, as I do. Not in the tangible sense, of course. But there are other realities besides the already wonderful one of the physical world.

I completely agree with Neriana. Whether you agree that they should be told or not, you have to agree that they need to believe in something.

Santa Clause, St. Nick, Pierre Noel, Kris Kringle, whatever you call him, he represents the Christmas spirit. Children aren't equipped to deal with the non-physical world. So there is Father Christmas to be that spirit.

To take that away when kids are young is to take away their belief in the Christmas spirit.

Whether it is legal to pose as Santa and accept mail, well that is easy to answer. IT IS CHRISTMAS FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. GO BE A GRINCH IN PRIVATE, BUT LEAVE SANTA ALONE!!!

Are we forgetting the point here? This is not about taking Christmas away from the poor children in South Africa, it is about taking away one of the factors that can cause some children extreme disappointment.

It's all nice and good to say that all children should believe in fairies and dragons and Santa Claus but how important is it for these children to live in a fantasy world when they have to fight just to survive? Fantasy is for those people who can afford it. Is it right that some small child who is in a life and death situation should forget about trying to save himself because someone has told him that his 'fairy godmother' will take care of everything?

The people who have said that Santa should be encouraged for every child to believe, have probably gotten gifts from Santa when they were little. They have probably not experienced such a poor life that even socks and shoes are considered a luxury and they have probably never had to break the heart of a very young child by telling them they can't have a gift from Santa because their family is too poor.

Well said Dragonfly.

The point I was trying to say is that 'Santa' is not representative of anything worthwhile in the way it is presented, nor is it any longer based in the fact it once was. I fail to see how this is vital to 'christmas spirit' or anything else. Also I don't understand what is meant by believeing in something but not in the tangible sense. Intangible to us is still tangible to itself.

If you want to spend all your time with presents that's fine, but remember that even giving a gift is materialism, as it supposes ownership, and in the western world the idea of Santa does little else than enforce commercialism. As Dragonfly said, you tell all the kids about Santa and soon the rich kids get presents no matter how they act and the poor kids get nothing. You can understand that your parents are poor but a child is going to feel unloved if they are told that the presents from 'Santa' are the means of recognition of how intrinsically good you are.

The fact is, you are lying to children, you're not telling them a story, you are lying, and whatever good you think is being done could be done in a far better way without all the negative associated aspects of this.

Perhaps if we all removed the Santa Claus crutch that everyone is leaning on they would develop such 'christmas spirit' within themselves.

[ December 18, 2003, 09:41: Message edited by: Manus ]

Oh, for the love of God! Remove Santa? Tell all the little children in the world that he doesn't exist? That is crazy! I hate to repaet myself but IT IS CHRISTMAS FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. LEAVE SANTA ALONE!!!

@Dragonfly

This is not about taking Christmas away from the poor children in South Africa, it is about taking away one of the factors that can cause some children extreme disappointment. What are you taliking about? What 'extreme disapointment'? Kids don't write into Santa to get everything on their list, not even in the UK or the USA. They don't expect that, so there is no big disappointment when they don't get what they asked for. Most of the times, kids are happy to write to Santa just to get a response from the jolly old elf.

Fantasy is for those people who can afford it. Now that is just plain codswallop. Fantasy is for everyone. It is one of the things that can be had by everyone. That is what makes it great. Wheter rich or poor, you can have everthing, even if it just in your head. One of the joys of being young.

@Manus

No. Just no man.

I mean, come on. It is Santa Clause. Not just a marketing figure head. I believe he is still the embodiment of the Christmas spirit.

It all depends on how you are raised to believe in Santa. It is true that most believe that Santa brings nothing but gifts. But why not love, or happiness. Santa can be many things, but he will never, ever be a crutch.

To say so is, well, Christmas blasphemy. Enjoy the coal.

Oh I will enjoy my coal, every bit of it.

The embodiment of the christmas spirit is humanity, we are that spirit, and to limit it to one day or one figure is preposterous.

It is a crutch, because you like it so much- anything you use like this, anything which takes away from something either of itself, or in you, is a crutch.

Forget about Santa, forget about the ridiculous notion which Christmas has become (which is a loss, as I said before, I felt that both these things once held value, they have become, I can only say cheap and taudry), and do those things every day. Spend your whole life thinking goodwill, spend your whole life thinking what you can give or do instead of take, spend your whole life in the pursuit of fantasy, not just once a year in an act in contradiction to the moral principles you are purporting to uphold.

And on that other point, yes, happiness, love, surreality, these things can belong to everyone. But presents can't. Just because you can always afford it doesn't mean everyone can, nor that it is better of you to do so. It is just money, it holds no worth except in what is attained from it, and even then, most of those things hold next to no worth in themselves either. Did you ever think what harm you do by working your job? What the consequences of your actions are? I doubt it, or you would not be saying such things. There are far reaching implications of every thought, every action which we take. Nothing is so insignifigant as to not be worth considering.

Edit: Twice I have toned this down. Normally I would not respond in such a manner.

Forgive me if I have insulted you, but you should value the things you say 'Santa' represents, not Santa himself.

[ December 18, 2003, 16:54: Message edited by: Manus ]

@Manus

I appreciate your efforts to tone down, as I have done the same.

I feel that with nature of human kind it is easier to focus most of the general spirit into one physical entity and day. This doesn't mean that we forget about it the rest of the year. Christmas is just a reminder, a day when we all can be at our best, and in sync.

This may sound corny, but the world needs Santa. And so do all of those kids. If not to hold goodwill, then just to remind of it.

I can certainly understand why the legislature banned the letters, yet I do agree that people need something to believe in.

Santa Claus, Chris Cringle, whatever, emphasizes the importance of goodwill and sharing among people. Also, through the stories, children learn that good behavior brings it's own rewards. These are all very valuable lessons for a child to learn and they are important concepts for adults to understand.

Actions like this by the South African government make you wonder if they saw this. (http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8121839%255E13762,00.html) (Shell, don't let your kids see this one.)

@Rastor

That Santa is pathetic. I think that he saw 'Reindeer Games' once to many.

(PS to all, in case you didn't know, 'Reindeer Games' is a movie where crooks dress-up like Santas to rob a casino)

Why is children being disappointed such a bad thing? Any child who has his or her heart broken because s/he doesn't get everything that they wanted for Xmas is a spoiled brat.

As for poor children who don't get anything, I think their parents or guardians are best-equipped to handle any "Santa" disappointment. They've got FAR bigger problems anyway. And fantasy is even more important to poor children than to overpriveleged ones. If you take that away, they have nothing left. The imagination equalizes us all, it gives us hope. Without imagination people born poor will stay poor, and people born rich will think they deserve it.

Every child should get a present for the holidays. And they should most definitely not get everything they ask for. I can't stand parents who blame Pokemon cards because they just HAVE to get their kids all of them.

There's another issue here. We're talking about a country banning a belief. Personally, I think the real reason for the ban is that South Africa doesn't have the resources to handle a flood of Xmas mail. If that's the case, they should have said so honestly.

I don't know if there's a God, but I still pray for peace. My heart is broken when that prayer isn't answered, but I still do it. And I believe it enriches me as a human being. I'm not talking about religion - without imagination and hope, what are we? Worthless lumps of flesh, basically.

The existence of something to believe in is what actually drives people on. Living a life contained purely within logic and laws of physics is pathetic - what's the point?
The inevitable is all around us, and yet we persevere because we believe in something. Whether what you believe in is possible or not is beside the point. If you want to catch a planet, hook up a spaceship and start catching stars.
Whether also that realization or disappointment will destroy these anyway is doesn't matter because it's all part of the process.

What the South Africa government did was destroy an essential part of developing hopes, goals or dreams and it won't strike me as odd if 50 years from now suicide and crime cases in that continent increase proportionally.

This is speaking from experience and a personal point of view.

I wasn't going to enter into this again, but I think it is important to note that telling children to believe in Santa Claus is far from the only way to have any sort of spiritual belief or goals. To me it even limits the attainment of these goals by re-inforcing negative attitudes and behaviourial patterns within yourself and others, depending on how it is approached- it may do the opposite, all I'm saying is that it it usually does not and is approached in the same way.

Just a fantasy on itself serves little purpose other than to aleviate stress- which can be very useful it is true. You must act on it, or learn something from it, or develop such a thing within yourself.

You like wizards? Find out how to become one. You like Dragons- go find out what they are and how you can meet them. You support generousity or kindness, then live like that. Mis-placed fantasy can be as big a hinderance as a lack of one, even bigger in some cases if you never do anything about it, or never learn anything from it.

Also, we do not always need a constant focus for such general attributes as love, hope or imagination- these can be applied to anything, and are as much a part of us as are anger, logic, and toenails.

Neriana, while I agree with your point totally that the parents and other environmental factors can be to blame for encouraging these negative aspects in the children, this is what advertising a place to write your letters to so that you may recieve your presents can encourage. It also may not, but the parents can tell their kids individually how to ask for such other less material things, it may even be to Santa. Also, I personally was not saying that it was bad if the children don't get all the presents they want, only that they are being led to believe by society that they should, and that they are less good if they do not.

Both Neriana and Scythesong have here commented that South Africa is banning a belief, or banning hope or imagination. It is doing no such thing, all it is banning is for the postal service to advertise a place to write letters to (which I think was done so that they could easier sort through all the mail they would get anyway). Those kids can still believe in anyting they want, and express it any way they want, and the parents can teach them whatever values or stories they choose (allthough I think it is irresponcible to actually mail such letters through the post, it is a waste of resources and someones time, they can let the kids tell Santa some other way).

However, I would like to agree with you now Jaguar, and conceed that I have been wrong and too general in my statements. A crutch may be a bad thing, but as you have said it may do even more good, as a focus and helping hand to reach these things where our own diligence might not, and it is better to work towards these thigs in some way then not at all. It only becomes bad when you become dependant on it, that is what I meant to say.

You are right, one day of charity and goodwill is better than none.

I think you covered it pretty well Manus. My words were not specific enough but I feel no need to write more because you pretty well voiced what I was trying to say.

@Jaguar:

IT IS CHRISTMAS FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.Uh...yeah. It IS for His sake - that's why we call it Christ-mas!

Belief in Santa Claus may cause changes in behavioral patterns, but the fact I'm stressing is that the belief in something is what causes one to strive harder.
Yes, fantasy by itself is useless, which is why one must learn to be able to do something about that fantasy. To make that possible, a fantasy must be there in the first place - one must first learn to fantasize.

You like Wizards? Dragons? As time goes by one will obviously learn that magic doesn't exist, so one must learn to channel this into other fields, which is why games like Baldur's Gate and Diablo were born (beliefs-games-money).

Logic is simply what keeps us from going too far - but it's not supposed to be there to keep us prisoners.
I didn't comment on the banning of a belief - I was making a statement of what consequences could be, and that they will certainly take their toll.

Santa Claus is one of the few things that poor Christian children have left to believe. In the world they live in, Christmas is the only time of the year where there life at least *seems* to get better.
All the others have been wiped away by poverty, cruelty, and the rapid industrialization.
Maybe this will convince them to take a more realistic approach to life, but the results of these vary and altogether tip towards a negative effect.

@Grey Magistrate

Uh...yeah. It IS for His sake - that's why we call it Christ-mas! Funny. Very funny.

@Scythesong Immortal

Who knows man. Belief is a very tricky thing. WHile I still believe that all kids should be allowed to believe in Santa, I suppose that there are those that could take the belief to far. And I have pity for them, but I hope that they are few and far between.