We have a topic for ten idols, let's go now to the negative site, who are the worst people on earth:

- Bin Laden
- Extremist :p
- Sadam Houssein
- Milosevic
- The neighbours
- The other neighbours

Can't think about more yet. Anyone else?

Excuse me, but IMHO bin laden is too much of poor sod to be in front of me! *glower*

:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:

You know my neighbors? They suck!!!!

ok:

Tony Blair
G. W. Bush
Jack Straw
Al Gore

those Taliban leaders..

And all the other damn world leaders! when will people learn that democracy and fundementalisim don't work? Monarchy is what people need!

Which is just another name for a dictatorship. Perhaps with a little more nepotism thrown into the pot.

niet niet.. ahem, i mean.. No No No! you are thinking of Marxisim...

[Edited out. Take your homophobia somewhere else. We won't discriminate against ANYONE on Boards O' Magick.] -Tal

[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited October 25, 2001).]

wooh! i really hope you are joking!

[This message has been edited by Spudsquisher (edited October 25, 2001).]

I think extreamist takes the pot on this one...

(followed distantly by the leaders of alqueda, al gore, sadam husien(how ever the heck you spell it), and tipper gore(trying to "protect young minds from music my a$$...)

[EDIT]: Forgot to mention my chemistry I teacher.

[This message has been edited by jack-of-all-trades (edited October 25, 2001).]

sorry tal

George Bush
Mike Harris
My english teacher
my bro(ugh)
that stupid girl from grade 6
my math/art teacher
my science teacher
my grade 5 english/math teacher
last year's principal
me

I'm glad no one still mentioned me.
I was just kidding extremist, you rule :)

Charles Ng

-Bin Ladim (complete idiot, rhetorics are just like Bush's: America is the devil ... kill them ... (mumbling) no ... better kill them all !... in Jihad, JIHAD! yeah, jihad sounds great :) ... {not that he would be allowed to start one - only a high imam could and there is none :rolleyes: but explain islamic law to an insane fanatic :rolleyes: }
-G. W. Bush (his rhetorics are horrid, not better than a child's, like "Bin Ladin is an evil man, we'll kill him ! ... ahem ... oh ... Good bless America!"

[Has anyone else noted this amazing similarity ? Usama and George are, both in their own more (georgie) or less (usama) rational way brothers in mind - simple solutions for everyday life ;) ]

-Saddam Hussein (da big bastard from Euphrat & tigris)
-Milosevich (balkan's finest :) EX :) - troublemaker)
-Chancellor Schröder ( *sigh* he's so vane - we would as well mate with Saddam Hussein would this grant his re-election and increase his public popularity - this however is probably a characteristic of all politicians). However, the only european politician with the irresistible charme of a car salesman :mad:

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 27, 2001).]

Ragusa ... no offense, but I've got to say that the most irrational statement I've ever heard is in your post!

[Has anyone else noted this amazing similarity ? Usama and George are, both in their own more (georgie) or less (usama) rational way brothers in mind - simple solutions for everyday life ]

How is George W Bush similar to Usama???? :mad:

The US military campaign has been far more "civilian friendly" than any of the Afgan civil wars that have or liberation movements that have happened over the past 100 years.

We can, in the blink of an eye, reduce the entire region to smoldering waste, unlivable for the next 100 years. But despite their gross attack on Sept. 11, despite the anthrax that they are sending through our mail, despite the rhetoric of wanting to kill all Americans, we have held back and have taken a rational approach ... just war.

Define evil, and you will see that bin Laden's actions are categorically evil.

Sorry for ranting, but right now America and the UK are building a wall againt terror that will protect ALL OF YOU! I repeat that. We are working to protect ALL OF YOU! And it shocks me to the core that people from Germany, Canada, etc can sit in front of their PC's and write about how stupid GW is, all the while breathing anthrax-free air, sitting in bomb-free buildings, and living terror-free lives.

Let this happen to your country, then tell us that our president is one of the 10 worst people on earth!

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Ive personaly never been the US's biggest fan, but to say Bush is like Usama is absurd. Bush isnt the one who broke all the rules of engagement and attacked civilians.

However, I dont necesarily buy into the whole 'US is protecting the world' schtick. They arent necesarily out to protect the world. The US is simply doing what *any* other country would have done under the circumstances. Retaliate.

[This message has been edited by zeiziot (edited October 26, 2001).]

Uh, actually, Ragusa is referring to their rhetoric, not their actions. And, although I'm fundamental and patriotic, I do agree that Bush tends to oversimplify and overcategorize. "We are good, you are evil. Let good prevail!" If only things were so black and white.

I forgot one: Jerry Springer. He and his show totally suck. Another one is Britney Spears... she is soo egoistic... I hate that high little stupid dumb voice of her... but you cannot compare her with People like Laden or Hussein, just as you cannot compare Bush with Osama. However the term Godd Bless America is good, but how many Americans do still believe in God? God bless all his childeren, not only the american ones. :)

Sure, sure. Mention Extremist and not me!
Fine! Where did I go wrong? Someone tip me off in the right direction please...

There is a world in germany, often misunderstood, it sais: That's like comparing apples and pears. Most people read it like: You cannot compare apples and pears.

Well, of course you can and maybe you'll learn something when doing so .... that they may have things in common while beeing different in many other ways .... ;)

The number one is Bill Gates, no doubt!
Saddam Hussein is number two, bin Laden is number three!
George W. Bush is simply stupid, so he is just number four.
And Britney Spears is number five!
GOD BLESS MICROSOFT!

come on people, if you are going to have Bush and Bin Laden, put in Tony Blair as well...

Everyone except me!!!!!!!!!!!

Azardu, some things are even too worse to can be on the worst people top ten.

Mathetais, your enthusiasm is moving, but your rethorics make little sense.

There *is* a similarity in speech between Bush and Osama, no sane man can deny that. When you cut the slack they *are* ideologically saying the same BS (the opposing ends, but still the same "they're evil we're good").

Of course Afghanistan isn't a wasteland at this moment, that would be by far the most stupid thing the US could have done as this would be playing straight into Osama's card.

Your anthrax comment is a hoot. Or do you actually believe your own words ?


Anyway, to stick to the original question, I'd like to add one name who definetly earns his place in this top 10 : Ariel Sharon.

First of all, Lord Bane, you're right that Osama and Bush both are basically saying "We're good you're evil." But don't forget, they both believe that as well. So to say that the only reason that Afghanistan is not a wasteland right now is because of political reasons is nonsense. It is our concept of what is right and good that causes us not to use extreme force such as the Taliban uses.

I don't believe in this nonsense about there being no such thing as good and evil either. True, Bush says the same thing as bin Laden when he claims good for his side. But to my mind, and to most of the civilized world, it's more true for Bush than for bin Laden. So while the two may be similar in their *rhetoric*, the similarity stops there. And it's deeds that count in the end, not rhetoric.

As for the anthrax, please. Don't hurl insults unless you have something useful to contribute to the discussion.

Definitely Capstone. I *was* basically referring to thier rhetorics. And yes, beyond rhetorics, bin Laden and Bush are very different:

About "Good bless America" - generally there is nothing wrong about it, except that it imo symbolizes unreflected, uncritical patriotism. However, the USA, with all their achievements, are *not* perfect and I think that considering that from time to time may be worthwile. And, the US aren't the freeest or best country in the world as well - and especially: It is not the *chosen* country.

No doubt that Bin Laden is a dangerous fanatic and I actually think that he should at least be caught, if not killed. So I have to agree to you Capstone, their deeds count.

This is indeed the major difference between Bush and bin Laden: Bush is not a dangerous fanatic, but he's not the world's brigtest leader (referring to rhetorics again) and stupid men, how well counselled they however may be, tend to make mistakes. And when the most powerful man of the world is subject to make mistakes, this may have fatal consequences. IMO this tends to happen quicker, when people practice an unreflected patriotism.

Finally (and here we are about rhetorics again) the cries "God bless America" and "Allah is great" are used in a way too similar to make me feel well.

Capstone, everything depends on your interpretation. There isn't such absolute things like good and evil. You can say that this person is good or evil, but your judgements are only valid in a certain context. So you can say that bin Laden is evil,(and I can agree with that, because our cultural context is similar) but there can be someone who says that the USA is evil, and in her context she may be right.

Alyr, I disagree. I believe in absolute good and evil. But that's a subject for another topic.

Ragusa, thanks. But actually I do think the USA is the best country in the world, so there. :p

:D :grin: :D

Why would you expect the rhetoric of Bush and bin Laden to be different? The whole purpose of rhetoric is to influence people and persuade them that your cause is just and right. What better way to do that than to say your opponent is evil and you are good?

Richard Nixon hasnt been mentioned, oh no wait hes dead and is in Heaven, cause Satan wouldnt accept them.

::2 fingers up on both hands::

I am not a crook :D

Any of the royal family of the UK. Any family that would kill their own daughter in law is WAY off!

For infor,mation she was killed by french papparatzi and not by the royal family. There was no indcation, accusations or suspectations of that at all so shut your lying little yankee trap hole!

as for the most evil people

me

As for the niggest dick head in the world:

the long named gimp above

Ok, sorry if my words upset you Capstone, it wasn't my intention to insult anyone.

But for Mathetais' insinuation that Al Qaeda is behind the anthrax are no other words than ridiculous. Russia and the US are the only ones sure to be able to make this form of anthrax (some mention Iraq but I dare doubt that), and there are very little scientists who believe it actually is the old enemy this time. So what exactly was useless in my post ?

Will you please stop comparing some people noone ever heard of and continue ranting why am I on the list?

This means - this thread started to be too much boooooooring.

You guys, this little poll was not intended to be taken seriously. If this is of that much concern to you guys, why don't you start a new thread?

By the way extreamist i was kiding as well as you probably already know...
(or was i...):p

Ahh. I see. I agree that it's not too likely. Actually, indications are that it's most likely the work of US extremists, so no doubt you are correct. I called your comment "useless" simply because it contained no information. All well now...

I know that this thread was supposed to be a joke, but I can only see so many people list GW Bush next to the "Evil One" so many times before I go ballistic!

somehow you all avoided me!

hehe am i not one of the most annoying people on earth to you guys yet? hehe

Well all I read about is George Bush Junior's campaign of goodeness against the evil terrorists.Really these fundamentalists are fanatics but doesn't the american people get fanaticised by the TV and all those pompus statements(a la ''If you're not with us you're against us''etc)make the americans fanatics too!Ehat will the difference be in the end?And,yes,the incident at NY wasinhuman andmany innocent people died and the onme responsible should be punished but!:someonw posted that if the same happened at my/our/her/his country then the reaction would be the same.Well I think not,no other countries apart from the US have murdered so many innocent people the last decade(Yugoslavia's civilians come in mind,Gulf War US soldiers come in mind,Hiroshima comes in mind etcetcetc),so at some point retribution would knock their door don't you think?(either retribution means open war or terrorist acts).Such things are common sense but fanaticism blinds us and doesn't allow us to see the truth.Of course no one would complainfor the dead innocents at the empty streets of Yugoslavia,the channels weren't there y'see,but the WTC innocents were mourned around the globe.Why?Coz the worth/price of lIFE seems to differ around the world.Coz the WTC innocents were killed in front of 200 cameras(really doesn't this at least put you into suspicion?)whereas the other innocents were not important enough to be shown on TV.Many people would lose their comfortable ''chairs''if all things were revealed about US military operations but we all are too fanaticised to stand for a moment and think clearly,without personal urges.Think people!

I know many people in this forum will hate me for what I say above but I just spek some truth and report some facts that belong to the spgere of common sense but fanaticism doesn't lets us see clearly.All of us in here take pride in our intelligence and intellectuality so-at least us-let's just not be urged by others or made to believe falsehoods to serve the goals of others.
Greetings,
Varzael

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

:rolleyes:*sigh**shrug**glower*:mad::flaming:

You all forgot to place some links to US government and taliban pages. Or those are irrelevant?

There are some differences. I never saw Bush congratulating people who just killed 5000 innocent people...... :(:(:(

Bush is certainly not in this top 10.. He may seem a bit stupid (he isn't) but any criminal that murdered someone are raped someone deserves to be above Bush in this list.... Problem is only famous people here are mentioned..... and many people that are pretty worse aren't famous :)

5000 innocent people

5000 people are definetly NOT "ten worst people"... *sigh*

Is this a poll on ten worst people or "Bush vs Laden" topic? I constantly miss the topic subjects, but political color in this thread became REALLY ANNOYING.

And I am annoying. And I'll continue to be annoying until you stop wasting this thread with a couple of fools that are not worth even mentioning on SP.

For Bush+Laden spitting and glorification do please open some other thread.

I was just helping you by telling all the others why Bush should NOT be in this this top10, where Laden in my opinion DOES belong to.....

And Extremist.... you never annoy me :)

Never annoy you...

You wish! :p :p :p :p

If there were a 10 most annoying people tpic you would most definatly go at the top of the list extreamist...

And bush can be a real dimwit.

most smart people would check to see if the microphone was off before calling someone an ass.
:xx:

Mat - before 9/11 I had so many good GWB jokes it wasn't true - but since then they've been replaced by OBL jokes. Hell, neither of them have an electoral mandate, but GWB appears to have found his Falklands - and look what that did for MHT at the low ebb of voter popularity. I'm not a huge fan of US (and by association UK) foreign policy in certain cases, but in the words of Kenny everett........bomb the bastards

OK 6000 innocent people die ever day due to diarroheral (sp??) disease which can be sorted at a cost of a few pence per death - show me the benefit concert for them (since 1985). My list of of worst people is the combination of corrupt nameless dicators, conniving western governments and profiteering global companies which lets this go on. Oh yes and apathetic electorates as well.

[This message has been edited by Gopher thighs (edited November 01, 2001).]

WHya re you then on this site and on the internet? For each minut you are online you could save one life... Come on, when we start with arguments like this, we all deserve a spot in that top ten.

becuase of the other topic about the us and Afghanistan is closed i'll post my thoughts here.I don't like the US being from southamerica and all the US has done much **** 2 southamerica that's why i dont like the us! i dont say i hate the "people" they are just like any other (both evil and good) i think the thing bin laden did was good in one way but bad in another way , i like that he crashed in the Pentagon and learned the US a leason that they aint un-tuchable they can be hurt , even by a poor and little country like Afghanistan , i didn't like the thing about the WTC (world trade center) because of all the inoscent ppl dieing ( sorry , my english isn't the best) in other words i hate the US! (sorry all americans , i know u will post things like : **** u blah blah blah , so would i if you would have spoken about my country being crap) they dont have any culture that's maybe why they think they can do what they want , America isn't even older then 200 years (i think , but i'm not sure) and they also killed the indians , America realy belonged to the Indians how the **** could you just kill a race like that ( yes there are American Indians left , but not many ) and if i would have been living in Afghanistan i would have join forces with the talibans even if i wouldn't have like them , rather joining forces with pigs then being boomed by some other pigs. and what Extremist (sorry if i speel wrong ) says about the food thing , i think he is right! and i woulden't underestimate the afghans! they have been waring for quite some time , and the only one who has been capable 2 beat the afghans was Alexander the great.I'm not saying i like bin laden or the Talibans i hate em 2. But i don't say the Afghans has any chance wining this war because they dont , the US will win in the end but still you shulden't underestimate the afghans. The US is using chiken tactics for the moment (boombs and missilse) ok so would i have done it's a smart tactic and i woulden't like waring with the afghans on the ground (too many looses) they have all sorts of advantages , their country , mountains etc. i just hope this war will be over soon!!!

-peace :hippy:

[This message has been edited by Glixius (edited November 01, 2001).]

It's easy to call using bombs and missles chicken tactics when you don't have to stand in front of the bullets. This isn't the playground, it's war. Since Afghanistan does not have an air force (to speak of) or a navy the U.S. should not use theirs? Should the American troops only use the American equivalent of the dated Soviet weaponry that the Afghans are using? Absurd.

Back to the topic:

Extremist, you and I agree for once, you are annoying. But you don't deserve to be on this list. You are too helpful to be considered evil.

Sharon is a good addition. I would also include the Afghan Mullahs who perform amputations/floggings/executions on their own people. See this article for a chilling account: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001370005-2001380262,00.html

1. G.W.B :mad:
2. Göran Persson (Fascistic Swedish Prime Minister)
3. Tony Blair
4. Jay Leno
5. Donald Rumsfeld
6. Ariel Sharon
7. Tim Allen :mad:
8. Ricki Lake
9. Margaret Thatcher
10. Julio Iglesias

glixius,
#1, it is not a good idea to post about a thread that is closed(it is closed for a reason)

#2, since when have we thought we are "untouchable"? We did have Veitnam remember...

#3, There is and never has been a campeign(sp) against Sout America. We fight drug lords etc. and protect allies.

#4, I do think we get into stuff we shouldn't but i'm not part of te government, am i. There is nothing any of us can do about it, so say you hate the American Government, not the people.

That's all i have to say.

Brega, lol Tim Allen, what did he ever do to you?

Ten worst people?

Bah. We all have faults.

sorry i meant the goverment. My english isn't the best that's why i type so bad.

Ouch Glixius, I don't like some things the US governments have been doing the past decades either, but you gotta give them some credit.

Other than that, to stay intellectually honest, I suppose this list should also include Arafat and al-Assad (although so far his father was worse). And perhaps Khadafi and Khamani, although they don't really deserve such a high rank, IMHO.

Some African leaders to, although they're too numerous to name.

AAAAGGGHHHHH
I am getting so tired of political Taleban vs. US postings, this is a (C)RPG site for cryin' out loud. I know tha this is the Whatnots forum, but please le the politics rest.

Well, after that rant i will make my list:

1. My english teacher, Birgit (Hate her :flaming: yesterdat she made one of the girls in my class stand up for two lessons
(1-and-a-half-hour) because her chair was noisy.
2. Anybody who makes electric-sounding music on a computer and makes a stinkin' amount of money for nothing :almostmad:
3. all of 7th grade from my school, for being annoying.
4. ????
5. ????
6. ????
7. ????
8. ????
9. ????
10. Cemille,Mia and Michelle for having a bad taste in music... j/k (but still they like Toby (BAAAAAAAD danish"artist"))

yeah , your right lord bane they have done some if not many but still some good things

i just notiv=ced that as well,Hiroshima was exactly the same cept an entire city woz vapourized and america didnt seem to care or was this before ne1 noticed war crimes?

Paddy (country unknown),
If you want to go back 56 years for an example and apply it to the current government/situation, then you are not being intellectually honest. There have been many atrocities prior too and since then (and yes, I do consider Hiroshima/Nagasaki an atrocity) perpetrated by many governments. Not to mention the atrocities perpetrated by other governments during that war.

What I see now is a government (my government, which I don't always agree with) which has learned that nuking cities is not a good choice.
It is called learning.
Perhaps you could try it.

Back to the topic:

Brega,
Jay Leno and Ricky Lake. Classic.

alex ferguson x 9
and the green party

I thought this was supposed to be 'Top Ten worst people on Earth', not 'Top ten people you hate/cant stand'

Queen+Sir Dargorn=wanker.

i just want to add here...

11) those people who ring you up on the one day it snows in england, and say " have you seen the snow???!"

1st:My history teacher
2nd:a boy called Mads(i know him:( )


Peace :hippy:

lot's of teachers on this top10 :rolleyes:

Not on topic but can anyone else see the irony in Glixius complaining of the treatment of the Native Americans (they prefer not to be called Indians.) Since he's from South America I imagine he's speaking Spanish or Portugesse but either way it ain't the native tongue.

1st My history teacher
2nd Jesper898 :grin: :grin:
3rd A boy called Anders ( You know him to jesper898 ;)


[This message has been edited by MD (edited November 12, 2001).]

Joar and Ola Guren!!! Most annoying persons in the world.

who are that?

Hyacint from Keeping up Appearances :)

You have all been takin up political leaders or people you persnonally resent. But what about the people that do the truly aweful stuff? Im talkin about murderers, rapists and pedophiles. And not just your average joey killer im talking about the people that rape and murder infants people that enjoy cutting other people apart. Sure they dont kill as many people that us bombs or hijacked planes but that is the true evil imo. And there are alot of them, we live in a crazy world.

Murderers do not threaten genocide.
Rapists mostly leave living victims.
Paedophiles are sick and should die BUT they are a tiny minority.

You are right that groups are more important than individuals:

1. They who rewrote a Holy Book to make it a tool of insurrection (Read it and see)
2. They who believe that that book is more important than human life & freedom.
3. They who supply arms to embittered foriegn countries.
4. They who wish to force their ideals / cultures / morals / laws etc on other people.
5. They who abandon law and become terrorists / geurillas.
6. They who support such murderers.
7. They who sit by and allow this to happen.
8. They who justify the murderers.
9. They who drive green station-wagons
10. Osama Bin Laden

Phew, I'm all ranted-out.

They who wish to force their ideals / cultures / morals / laws etc on other people

AGREED! They only have to dump nukes there.

I ENJOY hacking people apart.
Does that qualify me for a top ten position?

nope.... but you enter the top 100 as highest new entrance, spot 24 ;)

Ah damn...
:heh:

to Osama and Georg..... :hippy: PEACE! :hippy:

Top three worst people on the face of the planet.

1. Ms. Pallpully
2. Bin Laden & Bush

1.Roseanne Bar- For attempting to sing the US national anthem in public.
2.Piasadora- For not knowing the words the US national anthem and attempting to sing it in public.
3.School Bully- For making everyones school life a more tramatic experience than it had to be.
4.Trusted friend- For stabbing you in the back when you needed them most.
5.Horny Sheepherders- For finding animals more attractive than humans and adding another disease(s) to the world.
6.Morticians- For sticking it to your friends and family when you pass on.
7.Doctors-For caring more about their ride then who just rode into their operating room.
8.Sally Struthers- For being a fat tub of crap and asking for money to feed the hungry.
9.Car Dealers- For lies, more lies, and even more lies.
10.Media-For getting into other peoples busines without being invited.

How could you ever put Bush and Ben Laden on the same spot? Are you for or against Terrorism? When you like Terrorism, put Bush higher then Osama or else vice versa.

You can all say what you want but note this:

There is a difference someone that is just a bit stupid (at least you think that) and a Murderer.

This Topic is old by now but i haven't been on this forum for a while so i haven't been able to see the reply on my message... So if my mother tounge isn't the language of the Native's in America! so what do you know if i'm not a Indian? I AM! a motha****ing Indian and I CAN SPEAK THEIR LANGUAGE!!! ( even if there are many Indian Languages ,and i maybe dont speak theirs ) and spanish a lil English and French...*taking my chest out feeling proud for knowing so many languages :)* even if i woulden't been a Indian can't i feel compashion and sorrow for another ppl?

[This message has been edited by Glixius (edited November 15, 2001).]

Headbanger, whatever the difference was (yes, they don't have same hair color, bush doesn't grow beard, etc), the list is about worse and there is no reason why wouldn't two different persons be at the same spot on the list.

The list is not "ten stupid people" nor "ten murderers" nor "TEN NUKE OWNERS".

Hmmm, I think you missed the point Glixius and this returns to the original intent of the thread I believe. It is impossible to make a list of 10 worst people in my opinion.

""During the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that conditions called war; and such a war, as if of every man, against every man.

"To this war of every man against every man, this also in consequent; that nothing can be unjust. The notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place. Where there is no common power, there is no law, where no law, no injustice. Force, and fraud, are in war the cardinal virtues.

"No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death: and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short."
Thomas Hobbes

You were angry in your original post Glixius about the actions of the US in the past and I take it saying that the US should be considered for the top 10 list. My point was that man is brutal and selfish and it was ironic to complain about the US treatment of the Natives and to exhibit such pride in your region when the treatment of the Natives in Canada was equally brutal and history shows us the treatment of the Natives from Mexico South was far more brutal than the treatment north; because of the wider Spanish influence perhaps and the fact that Spanish goals differed from the French and English at the time?

Here's a few more quotes making my point about this list of top 10:

"Cruelty has a Human Heart, And jealousy a Human Face; Terror the Human Form Divine, And secrecy the Human Dress. The Human Dress is forged Iron, The Human Form a Fiery Forge, The Human Face a Furnace seal d, The Human Heart its hungry gorge. "
William Blake

"Of mankind we may say in general they are fickle, hypocritical, and greedy of gain. "
Niccolo Machiavelli

"I have found little that is "good" about human beings on the whole. In my experience most of them are trash, no matter whether they publicly subscribe to this or that ethical doctrine or to none at all. That is something that you cannot say aloud, or perhaps even think."
Freud

In Plato's "Republic" there is a story of a man who finds a ring which allows him to become invisible and thus may accomplish whatever he desires without fear of retribution. The man proceeds to sleep with the wives of other men, steal etc.

So, I hope my point is now more clearly conveyed. I actually don't have quite as dim a view on human nature as some of those quoted above have. My view lies somewhere between that of Hobbes and Locke; many men if not all would rape and pillage if given the opportunity and so in making a list of the 10 worst people you have to ask is it right to consider someone worse for doing that which many would do if given the opportunity? Afterall, it isn't a list of the 10 worst deeds or the people who have had the means, opportunity, and will to do the worst things but rather it is a list of the 10 worst people. Unknowable and probably millions are tied for #1 on the list.





[This message has been edited by Laches (edited November 16, 2001).]

Glixius, did you just say that you think the terrorists hitting the Pentagon was a good thing? Why don't you go to Washington DC and say that, *******? It's not as though there were innocent people in the Pentagon, is it?

As for the South American intervention stuff...yeah, FORMER US administrations did some pretty *****y things to you people. But guess what, we don't anymore. You don't hold modern Germans responsible for the Holocaust, so why the **** do you hold modern Americans responsible for all that other ****?

America doesn't have a culture? Right. So you've never heard of Hollywood? It may be new, but it is still a culture. We're a composite culture.

Your country in South America, whatever it is, has also not been around for more than 200 or so years. What the hell kind of a stupid thing to say about a nation is that anyway? Fine, so your Indian ancestors had a nation long before the Spanish started killing them. So what? That nation no longer exists. My Russian/Polish/German ancestors all had nations and cultures of their own,too.

AMaster, I'm afraid I may have fanned the flames and be at blame for a harsh post from you because I woke a sleeping giant a while and so I'm going to try to clarify what I meant and urge a modification of the way you conveyed what you meant to say.

What does "worst" mean? I take it to mean wrongdoers as opposed to righteous or evil not good. What then is wrong or evil? I think many have considered the actions of individuals and I was asking to what extent we should consider motive. If someone truly believe their actions to be good are they evil?

Consider the following: you're Jesus Christ. You are running for President of the U.S. One of your desires is what we'll call the Utilitarian Want (UW) desire to avoid massive useless harm. You become elected President (I suppose we should imagine Jesus is also very rich.) Now, across the ocean the USSR is ruled by Darth Vader who uses the force to read peoples minds and desires to conqueor the world and make everyone slaves. Now, Darth reads Jesus' mind and knows that he is the sort of person with the UW and so, Darth can launch nuclear weapons at the US because Jesus won't retaliate because that would only cause massive useless harm (the US is dead anyways) and then Darth can take over the world unopposed. Jesus is smart though. He knows Darth can read minds and so, in order to prevent half the world from being destroyed and the other half from being enslaved Jesus has to become the sort of person who is willing to cause massive useless harm, he has to become a cold hearted s.o.b. willing to destroy the world. Paradoxical huh? However, given the circumstances, would it be right to call Jesus evil for being so coldhearted when his motivation for becoming so was so noble? Indeed, by being so coldhearted he is saving the world, wouldn't that be good?

My point is that maybe we need to consider whether motive is a criteria in deciding who is evil and if so I think we might find that those who appeared dissimilar are actually not that unalike. So we come to my point about the Native Americans and their treatment.

The most brutal actions ever taken against Native Americans at one time was perpetrated by Native Americans. The Inca, under the rule of Huayna Capac brutally conquered Quito, which is now Ecuador. That brutality though paled in comparison to the bloodshed that followed when Huayana died and civil war erupted between his sons Athahuala and Huascar as they struggled for power. The Spanish and Inca were brothers in blood because they were both motivated by the lust for power. As are many others. I just think it is hypocrisy to decry the actions of the English/French/Americans with regards to the Natives while ignoring the actions of the Spanish and the Natives themselves and failing to recognize the common human bond, which is the desire to dominate.

As an aside, regarding American culture. American culture is Friday night high school football in a small town in Texas, it's an elderly Russian immigrant making her way to the bleachers in Wrigley field to watch her beloved Cubs play baseball. It's small Amish communities in Pennsylvania, small Baptist churches in Alabama, synagogues in New York, and Haida Native spirit gatherings on the Northwest coast. It's the street smarts toughness of New York, the glitz of L.A. It is the cold frontier mentality of Naknek, Alaska and the friendly warmth of Molokai Hawaii. American culture is diverse and some may denigrate that diversity as a lack of culture, failing to understand the common bonds that tie, but I for one think that diversity is America's strength.

Have I wandered afield? I'm still new here but I was motivated by thoughts I had while considering the "10 worst people" but if I'm too far astray or just too damned mouthy let me know and I'll know to modify future posting. I'll shut up now.