I've had this question bugging me for the last few days. Can anyone elaborate on what Tiamat, Grendel, (a) Baelrog, and Jormugand are? (No DnD/LotR/other fantasy-related replies, please. I know what the DnD Tiamat is. I'm interested in knowing what they were in mythology.)

Thank you all in advance.

[EDIT]: Just saying that mythology-related replies are the ones I was interested in.

[This message has been edited by C'Jakob (edited June 02, 2002).]

Hmm...Tiamat's a dragon IIRC, queen of dragons or something. Don't know about the rest. sorry

Grendel was an evil wyrm (or was it a witch ...?) from the legend of Beowulf. Our insane english teacher served us the early medieval version of it in school so I know for sure ... :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited June 02, 2002).]

IIRC a baelrog (pronounced Bhaal-Rog) is from the LotR. It's that thing that 'kills' Gandalf in FotR.

Tiamat's a dragon that came from Heliopolis I think, Balrog is from Lord of the Rings but I've never heard of the others.

[This message has been edited by Shadow_Goddess (edited June 02, 2002).]

Tiamat's an ancient dragon in D&D universe. Grendel is the spawn of Cain that manages to kill Hrothgar's thanes for 12 years until Beowulf comes along and kills it. Grendel is an ogre, a giant-like humanoid. (No, not a wyrm and even less a witch.) Balrog (note the spelling) is an ancient demon awakened deep in the halls of Moria by the dwarves. Never heard about the last one though.

I knew I wasn't too good in medieval english ... :hmm: ... bah, ogre, witch, dragon - let my sword decide what it hits!

Tiamat is ancient name of a planet that cycled around our Sun and was destroyed by the 12th planet of Solar System (which still exists and is called Nibiru).
Sumerians believed that Earth is a part of that ancient planet created from the cataclysm and used word Tiamat to name it which ment to them "the one who gave birth".

Other names I've never seen in mythologies but only in LotR and d&d.

Note: I'm not imagining things. This is a serious post.

[This message has been edited by Extremist (edited June 02, 2002).]

Well I suppose you'll concede that those are only theories Extremist :)

Actually Tiamat's origins are Babylonian and she is depicted as a serpent (dragon). Mythologically, she is the creator of the world. She bears a child (Marduk) which goes to kill Tiamat by splitting her in two, one half forming the earth and the other half forming the sky :D
However, this is the Babylonian story, and Sumerian/Asyrrian/Hittite/Hurrian myths are different although they revere her as the creator of life as well. :p

The others are answered I believe except Jormungand, who in nordic mythology is the son of Loki and a giantess. He is thrown into the ocean by Odin and becomes a terrible serpent as time passes by. In Ragnarok (the end of the world) he'll fight Thor and they will kill eachother. So he's also the killer of thor ;)

No no no.
It's originally Sumerian. Babylonians copied it. Read this article: http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/07/18_god.html

[EDIT]
It doesn't matter actually. I'm not taking it as a theory but as a myth.

[This message has been edited by Extremist (edited June 03, 2002).]

Well I won't argue whether it's Babylonian or Sumerian although almost all of the texts I've read say it's Babylonian in origin.

In mesopotamian mythology, the planet of crossing (Nibiru that you've mentioned) "was forever destined to return to the place of the celestial battle, where it had originally 'crossed the path' of the watery planet Tiamat"

Tiamat being earth as her halves formed the earth and sky after she was killed by Marduk.

And the existance of a 10th (or more) haven't been proven yet (hence I said they were theories). There are actually many many objects orbiting the sun but many are too small to be observed or to be called planets.

EDIT: Of course I may very well be wrong :) As I said, this is just what I've read through time and mesopotamian mythology gets all subjective imo in terms of interpretation.

[This message has been edited by Invoker (edited June 03, 2002).]

Tiamat is a band :) They make nice Metal. Their music is doomy and gloomy.

Check out: Judas christ and clouds!

Umm I have heard about Jormungand but is it really the serpent? I thought the serpent was only called "midgårdsormen" (middleearth serpent) and that it went around the whole world. Jormungand could have been its real name but then it is very rarely used.

I wont comment on the others because I dont know about them but what little I know seems to agree with former posters.

joacqin ... you're right about Jormugand aka the Midgard Serpant. In Norse mythology, it spanded the world, biting its own tail. Thor almost caught it once on a fishing trip (great story). During Ragnarock (the battle for the last days), Thor slays the serpant in a huge battle. However, as the monster dies, it releases a burst of poison, which kills the mighty Thor.

Jormugand & Feneris wolf are both children of Lokki. Lokki turned himself into a female horse to seduce a very powerful male horse and win a bet (another long story). In this state Lokki got pregent and had 2 or 3 children. The serpant, the Wolf (who bites of Tyr's hand and kills Odin at Ragnarok) ... and I think he also had Slepneir ... Odin's 8 legged steed.

I have a riddle: The name Tiamat appears once in Baldur's Gate II. Does anyone know exactly where?

In one of those bloody books that are all over the place?

Nope :)

Poster in the Adventure's Mart.

correct :) even Tiamat didn't knew that until I told it her. :)

Thanks again for all of your feedback. If anyone notices a connection between the monsters besides mythology, it's that they're all names of broods of the Zerg Swarm in Starcraft. The names of the broods are Tiamat, Surtur, Fenris, Jormugand, Garm, Grendel, Baelrog, and Leviathan.

I never noticed that...how odd.

Sorry if i'm a bit late to post here but Math, you made some mistakes regarding the norse mythology.
The Fenris wolf, Jormugand (never knew it was called that) and Hel (the lady of the death world) was the kids Loke had with Angerboda.
Sleipner is also his child though. He polymorphed himself into a mare (A story i don't want to tell right now...) And had Sleipnar with the male horse Svadilfare.
I have been studying norse mytholigy for quite a while now. And it was in fact my biggest hobby 3 years back.

Well, this is what I know about some of them. It's not much help after all these posts but maybe some do care.
It's all in Dutch here and I don't know how to translate some things and names may be spelled different.

Tiamat: (Babylonian version) Goddess of Seas and Oceans, paired with Apsoe, the God of rivers and lakes. They got a lot of children. One of them was Ea, the father of Mardoek. Ea killed Apsoe and in revenge Tiamat fighted Ea and the younger gods with a horde of bloodthirsty monsters. These younger gods chose Mardoek as their leader. Mardoek killed Tiamat and chopped her body into 2 pieces: heaven and earth.
Tiamat was often pictured/represented as a monster or dragon. This was symbolizing the 'very chaos' that had to be vanquished before an arranged cosmos could be possible.

Leviathan was a sea-monster in the Bible. (Job)

I dont see any differences with Math's and Tasohans stories: IIRC, you both say that Loki was the father of Sleipnir, Hel, Fenrir and the serpant. Loki is a cool char, btw. I like this 'Trickster'. Did some good things for the gods but also was their biggest enemy. (He killed Balder, f/exm)

[This message has been edited by Master of Nuhn (edited June 08, 2002).]

Jormugand is same as te fenris wolf, son of loke, the one who killed Odin. Oh this was already stated, made a special work in school about our myrholigy, iam swedish.) Graendel isnt that a female forsaken in the wheel of time? Jordan have borrowed much from the bible, look on male forsaken, they were angels. Gaebril (gabriel), and his other name Rahvin (rafael), ok have forgotten all the others but they hav an angelic name to.....

Bhaal is a demon in the bible.
Leviathan is satan i think in disguise...

[This message has been edited by Turandil (edited June 09, 2002).]

Mmmh, about Bhaal...
Never saw that name in the Bible, except for Baäl (or Baälim), the the fertility god of the Philistinines. There were more Baäls, one of them is said to be some kind of devil (Baäl-Zebub...Beëlzebul/other spellings)

Leviathan was only mentioned once in the bible and it was a sea monster. The name Leviathan is used for other seamonsters as well, so a crocodile (sp?) could be one, too.

Did a search on the web: http://members.aol.com/biblesci/science/
It mentiones some things abot popes and visions etc. I'm a protestant, so what the pope sais is not important to me....

:yot:

The difference between my story and Maths is Loki only had Sleipnar with the male horse Svadilfare. He had the three others with a female giant called Angerboda.

[This message has been edited by Tasohan (edited June 10, 2002).]

On Baal, that's an old word from the devil. Pretty interesting (although definitely not a coincidence) that the Lord of Destruction (in Diablo II), and the God of Murder in FR (well, okay, it's Bhaal) are evil gods, connected in spelling with Baal.

Ba'alsevulv was Hebrew for the devil. It meant Lord of the Flies. Translated into Greek, it becomes Beezelebulb. One can see how you get Baal from that.

OK, :yot: But Lord of the Flies was such an amazing book.. incredible work by Golding.

[This message has been edited by TheBlackRose (edited June 11, 2002).]

Baäls, one of them is said to be some kind of devil (Baäl-Zebub...Beëlzebul/other spellings)


Baal is Beelzebub? I thought they where 2 difrent devils/demons!

About the lord of flies: Is that Beelzebub? I think I must check The Satanic Bible again, I thought Lucifer was the lord of flies!

Beëlzebub is Lord of the Flies.

[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited June 11, 2002).]