If Gandalf and Elminster were to battle, who would win? Name your reasons, and what spells they might use, plus anything else you want to say.

I think It'd be Elminster because he has more destructive and fighting type magiks, such as fireballs, lightning attacks, death magiks, etc. While Gandalf has more illusionary and summoning magik. Although Gandalf is cooler and I like him more, I think elminster would triumph. Gandalf could use shields, invisibility, and he could summon many different creatures.

yeah Eggman, good topic.

i dont know too much about Elminster, but i am pretty sure he is mortal, therefore he can die. on the other hand, Gandalf is a Maia or a spirit who can't die. i am sure we all remember the battle he had with the Balrog on the bridge in the Moria mines. after that battle, Gandalf the Grey returned as Gandalf the White.

what good can offensive spells do against an opponent that is immortal. Elminster might last a while, but in the end i think Gandalf would prevail, slicing through Elminster with Glamdring as if he were warm butter.

Where'd you read that Gandalf was a Maia? I know my Tolkien quite well but I've never heard of this before.
Neither have I seen it mentioned in any of the books. And there are only a few I haven't read, so I'm really curious...

i got that from the Silmarillion. Gandalf was know as Olorin in an earlier time which he mentions to Frodo in LOTR. so i looked up the name Olorin in the Simarillion's "index of names" and this is what i got: "a Maia,
one of the Istari, see Mithrandir, Gandalf.."
i wouldn't post on a topic like this with out doing my homework first.

Taluntain you got off topic there, what do you think of The Fat Egg's topic?

[This message has been edited by Wingfoot (edited October 09, 2000).]

Wingfoot, once again you best me in your knowledge, kudos. You are completely correct! I stand corrected. I feel such shame *sob, *sob*, just kidding, but good job in finding that!

Well, Gandalf is immortal, and i don't think he has a limited number of spell slots ;) so unless it was fought with only so many spells each day Elminster would be toast i think. But doesn't anyone think that Elminster is becoming overused in the Realms setting just now? Lately I've seen Elminster here there and everywhere in relation to D&D.

well Egg, i might know quite a bit about Tolkien, but this knowledge wont get me a job that pays 300,000 dollar a year; which is a present goal of mine. you seem to know quite a bit about PCs from what i have seen on these forums, and knowledge of that sort will get you a fine paying job.


BTW, when is your site going to be up? i am eagerly waiting to see what the EGGMAN's site will be all about.

I would like to point out that there's a difference between immortal, as in "god or similar status, can change reality as they see fit" and immortal, as in "cannot die due to old age, disease, etc.".

The second type of immortality is usually bestowed upon elves and other races in fantasy stories. Just because they don't die of natural causes, that doesn't mean they aren't suseptible to a dagger between the ribs...

Even if Gandalf is the first type of immortal, gods themselves may die. Especially since Elminster has magics to go toolin' about the planar dimensions with no harm to himself. He could be wicked with his extremely high level spells... Gandalf, conversely, fell off a bridge and came back, and you think that's impressive? Any mage in the Realms could cast a featherfall upon themselves and float gently to the ground. If nothing else, Gandalf might have cushioned himself with the Balrog's body.

So, Although I like Gandalf more, I really have to question whether he could win a magical duel with Elminster (whch is a STUPID name, Ed!).

Also, Gandalf may be an immortal mist, but Elminster is a chosen of Mystara (or whatever her name is), so I would think El has a pretty good lock on the immortality bit himself. After all, he is over 500 years old...

[This message has been edited by Lord Balduran (edited October 10, 2000).]

Yes Gandalf would win, 'cos he doesn't have a finite number of spell slots to memorise per day ;).

What type of spells would Gandalf cast anyhow? At least in AD&D, you know the spells from the handbooks and the like, but Gandalf? In LotR, they described spell effects, but does anyone know the names of those said spells he was casting, the duration, the damage, the effects?

Syl...

Didn't Gandalf say something along the lines of "I have walked down roads that I shall not name." or something like that? I kinda got the impression that Gandalf died and went to hell, then came back to redeem himself. Maybe he was just in Purgatory (JRRT was Catholic you know).

Sorry for the delay Wingfoot. Couldn't reply sooner. :p

I have no idea how you can possibly compare the two mages. One has completely nothing to do with d&d, was made up 80 years before d&d even existed and doesn't follow any rules or guidelines that apply in d&d.

Gandalf was an expert swordsman beside being the best mage in Middle-Earth, a good hint for you that comparing him with Elminster, which has been uplifted to the God-like status is very silly. Plus, none of the spells Gandalf used (and there was very little detail about any of them) could be equal to Elminster's.

Elm follows the d&d rules (more or less) where the amount of damage, range etc. is detailed to the inch.
Gandalf's importance therefor wasn't in his spell-casting ability but in wisdom (yes, wisdom, not that intel for mages d&d sort of thing), which he accumulated over the years.
That's my take on this topic.

Yea, I had the impression that Gandalf has more of divination magics, could see the future, etc.

Most of his role seems to be giving advice and planning tactics.

And his magic is arcane in the extreme, not like in AD & D where you know the casting time and range etc.

I agree, AD&D aand ME have different magiks so its hard to compare. How about Sarauman the White against Gandalf? Definetly Sarauman, he's the leader of Gandalf's order, and he is older, wiser, and most likely more powerful.

Now Sauruman vs gandalf would be a great big arseburger of a fight.

The result of such a fight is obvious, Saruman would get his wimpy ass whooped. His mighty fortress was beaten by a bunch of Treants. He was a decaying relic who faded into nothing, not even close to being a match for Gandalf. Gandalf's magic is totaly different to Elminster in that Gandalf doesn't have to memorize from a spellbook. Rather he can use whatever spell he wants, whenever he wants.

Actually when Gandalf fights Elminster, i reckon Gandalf will win...as Gandalf used a flash spell that killed loads of goblins when he took Bilbo to the cave in The Hobbit

Actually those were orcs, not goblins and he only cast one lightning bolt. ;)

[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited November 26, 2000).]

Gandalf's magic system is like a battery. Some of his spells use more energy than others. He will be exhausted after a few high power spells but he could do the same amount of magic missle and not be affected. When his power supply is drained he is useless until he has time to recharge his batteries.(That was just a theory) Have any of you read R.E.Feists books? I think that Pug could kick both Gandalf and Elminster working together.

I would put my money on Gandalf as he is out of the two wiser. Gandalf saw is mission as one of advicer and guide, he seems to have avoided position of leadership and displays of magic in case it lead to temptation, remember how he refused the One ring which he had the power to master. Besides lets face it Elminster is a third rate imitation of Gandalf that should be killed off.

Feist rocks!, although i think that any of the three wizards other than pug being debated could just flat out kick his ass

I would probably say Gandalf initially too, but there are a few things overlooked about Elminster. One, no one knows if he mortal or immortal because he has been alive for 500+ years, but then again, he himself thinks he is mortal. Second, he is mystra's chosen and as such will probably become a god himself once he dies (because of Mystra's sponsership). So would he come back and take revenge once he is a God??? Now that would be an interesting battle.

Man, it has been along time since I have read Tolkien. And what would happen if you threw Raistlin Majere into the mix????

you bring up an interesting point, what if elminster, gandalf, sarauman, pug, and raistlin would have an every man for himself battle, who owuld win?

Please forgive me if I'm wrong as I haven't read the Tolkien books in a while, Might start the Hobbit tonight, but wasn't Sarauman the guy in the tower when the tree giant guy things attacked. If he was then he would be first to go. Pug would win for sure, but I'm a big Feist fan and my vision may be clouded by my admiration for his great books. Have any of you givin a thought to Tomas. I know he isn't really a mage but he is kind of a multi-classed fighter/mage.

Hey Fat Egg, I don't quite understand your post. Are you saying that Pug would be beaten by any of the three wizards, or are you saying he could beat all three.

pug would be beaten, he rocks, but the other wizards just seem stronger, sarauman was the leader of gandalf's order, but gandalf was stronger and defeated him.

Hmm, maybe... Nah, Pug would Kick ass. Gandalf was only good enough to draw with a balrog and at best his power doubled after that. Sarauman lost to him and Elminster isn't that powerful.

Bah, yoda could wipe the floor with them all

Bullsh*t, Yoda sucks.

Tal, Gandalf was fighting GOBLINS! ORCS came out in Lord of the Rings. In the misty Mountains in THE HOBBIT he killed GOBLINS with his flash spell thingy!

Eh. Go read it again. The whole mountain was full of orcs, and he fought orcs, I'm pretty sure about it. But I don't care enough to go look for it in the book, so just take my word for it.

Ah heck! I'll check it in a mo
...
...
...
Ok i've checked and its goblins! But whats the point of arguing? Lets just say i won that one eh? :D

Someone please check that for me... I wanted to do it myself but I packed The Hobbit in a box with 50 other books on top of it and REALLY don't want to unpack the whole thing.

Bah! Elminster nor Gandalf could stand up to....

Wicket!

Thrown rocks beat magic all the time!! :D

As for Tolkein's books and monsters, what were once goblins in The Hobbit, seemed to be refered to as orcs in The Lord of the Rings. That was an inconsistancy that irritated me. As for Saruman VS Gandalf, I have a definitive quote from the Wise & Grey himself, "Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and the Council", He raised his hand and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice, "Saruman, your staff is broken", there was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away. A bit lengthy, but it's clearly defined. Perhaps in his prime, Saruman would prevail; as I have read, he was a formidable mage. But it appears that his lust for power defeated him in the end. My knowledge of Elminster is limited to BG 1&2. That being my only D&D experience other than a selection of Dragonlance wolumes. My admiration for Gandalf runs deep and any call I'd make on this matter would be heavily biased. So I'll leave it at that.

I've read 2 'Elminster books' and that bastard seems to be god-like, not a mighty wizard like Gandalf.

Ok Tal, the goblins i refer to are the orcs you refer to. So thats settled...right?

god damn, shura is right, elminster has died like 20 times and is always ressurected, if it were impossible to ressurect elminster, then either gandalf, or maybe, just maybe, pug would win, oh, and it was goblins.

I must admit I think Edwin would be able too kick everyones ass if he just got his damn 2000 years and a pointy hat!

Xan's got no chance (he's a poof)
and
Dyhnier is dead...Edwin killed her didn't he?

Nobody could stand up to TheGreatWoggle.

IMHO Gandalf would win because he is cool.

He would have to win, because if Elminster won then Gandalf wouldn't be there to star in Tolkiens books and then the people who work on the forgotten realms stuff wouldn't have had any insperation for an all powerful godlike mage/wizard bloke.