I have only played 2nd edition, thiefs are worthless in battle, are they better in the 3rd edition?

In direct assaults thieves are poor. But Its also a difficult class to play. I have experienced players make great deeds as a thief.
It is also hard to play a thief if Your DM does nothing to taylor an adventure that makes use of a thief's skills. :cool:

I would suggest to minimize your armor and learn most theiving proficiencies. Stay away from the general proficiencies. Also try to keep a distance to the rest of Your party. Try also beeing a moneymaker for the group. sneak into evil baron's and noblemens' estates (did I say Noblemen?? I ment Merchants :D) don't rob me :D

Theives are far from useless. Given that most have great dex, they are very usefull as archers (no, I know they can't get grand mastery and become machine guns, but they are usefull)
But if you want a good fighter, take a swashbuckler kit. added alot of fun to thiefs for me.
When presented with a DM that hadn't given me a trap to disarm or lock to pick in three game sessions, I straped on full plate. It got the point across. Thiefs are a necassity in any campaign.

I believe you are forgetting the most lethal aspect of playing a theif: the back stab. The damage taken from a back stab more than makes up for a theif's innability to fight head to head.

You can pick all nice feats like expertise and spring attack to make you tougher to hit. Sneak attack also helps.

In third they are more useful than in second. Take some combat speed enhancements, like improved initiative and improved run, and try flanking your enemies. You can greatly influence the battle by doing this, and the warriors will like your courage and help. Ranged attacks, smart use of skills, and flanking should give you plenty to do. Carry around some equipment ans kills to get past obstacles like chasms or mazes. You'll find plenty to do.

Second is a bit harder. They do tend to lose a lot later on, as they just can't dish out enough damage, even with backstab. That's why I liked duel and multiclassed thieves in second.

i try to have 2 theives one best for backstab (thus the assasin kit) and me other a trap finder/open locker or pick pocketer that way at early on i can have high proficiencies.
generally my backstab thieve stocks up on invisibilty potions to make up for lost fighting. i find em the most important member group as its so much simpler to make one easy backstab rather then personally confronting ppl

Thieves should use their stealth, to sneak up on people to backstab, use flanking or just stay in the back being an archer or dagger thrower. But not all classes are ment for combat, like rogues, bards and wizards/sorcerers. Fighters, barbarians, clerics and monks, have good fighter abilities, a lot of hit points. And that my friend = a good fighter.

A fighter with a few level of rogue can be very effective, if he is backstabbing or flanking.

i know plenty of people who are GREAT with thives in 2ed its probably just not the class for you.they are the 2nd best class for me

[This message has been edited by Reeky thestenchful goblin (edited July 06, 2001).]

I can't really say much about 3rd edition, since I just picked it up not too long ago, but thieves have always been my favourite class. And when it comes to combat, you have to work with their abilities. Just about any thief running into a straight-on battle is probably going to get their clock cleaned (unless they're fairly high-level). But that's why they have skills like hiding in shadows, and back stabbing.

And if you make your thief valuable to the party in other ways (like finding traps, opening locks, reconnaisance, etc etc), the fighters in the party are more likely to 'protect' their little thief in battle -- letting them hang back and give range-support (not as good as some fighters, but a higher dexterity can give them a pretty good shot!) without interferrence from the bad-guys, sneaking up behind the enemy to take out the spell-caster that's hammering the party, and the list goes on. Thieves require imagination and role-playing in every situation, maybe more than other classes. If you're looking for just a good combatant, you're better off with a fighter or even a cleric. But then, good luck with those locks on that massive chest you nearly died to get to....oh, and watch out for those nasty traps guarding it.

[This message has been edited by Gnolyn Lochbreaker (edited July 07, 2001).]

Well usually thieves have a high dexterity, so they react quick and will many times be first in the Initiative check. In 3rd edition they can also have skills like silent moving, hear sounds very good etc so they can hear and react quick. Of course that don't help much when you're with a party and the range of thiefs range-weapons isn't very good. But sometimes they can be very useful. I think in a party-fight they aren't very usefull but they can hear an enemy and alert the party, and hide in shadows-sneak attack they can be very good, also to do a quest alone, but for the party.

My party just found out how good a thief can be in a battle. Acutally a Ranger/Rogue. Anyway, since my character 9th level sorcerer, just got Imp. Invisibility the rogue suddenly got a whole lot better in combat, since he gets sneak attack at everyhit, and he gets a great AC bonus since he is just partially visible. Everytime he hits someone he get +3D6 i think.. :D

Depending on the DM thieves can be great or really stink. Like the invisiblility trick htis may be andother case where the DM could kill your plans by not going along with it. Also if your personality doesnt really suport being a thief you will have to be much more carefull than if you think like a thief. I dont and failed miserably as I am a straight up hack and slash or archer. I play as a fighter wield a greatsword and bow.