I have often wondered when it would be sensible to dual class. If I want a nice combination and actually play the game in a party I should dual at a lower level. If I want an "ubercharacter" then I should try to squeeze as much out of the game as possible.

I made up these charts so that they could be useful for others. (As well as myself!)

Important and Maximum Levels when Dual Classing. All of the first classes may also include the kits, second classes don’t. This assumes TOB is installed and the XP is 8 million. Wherever a class is no longer shown to have a matching level in the second class this is the maximum level that the first class can attain and still regain the first class after dual classing.

NOTE. In the table the first column is the first class level followed by the xp needed to get that level. The next column(s) indicate by class the maximum level available for the second class, by xp.

Fighter Dual Class Options. The levels shown indicate where the fighter class gains a new weapon proficiency slot.

Level at time of Dual Class........Maximum Level Achievable

Fighter...........Cleric...Druid...Thief...Mage
9 250000.......39........30........39........30
12 1000000...39........29........39........28
15 1750000...35........27........38........26
18 2500000...32........26........35........24
21 3250000...29........24........31........22
22 3500000...28........23........30
24 4000000...25....................28
25 4250000...........................27

Cleric Dual Class Options.

Cleric.............Fighter......Ranger......Mage.. ....Thief
11*.675000.....37............32.............29.... .......39
14~.1350000...34............30.............27..... ......39
17~.2025000...31............27.............25..... ......37
21..2925000...28............24.............22..... ......33
22~.3150000...27............24.................... ......32
24..3600000...25.................................. ..........30
26..4050000....................................... .............27

* indicates the first time 6th level spells are available.
~ indicates the first time 7th level spells are available. Every ~ afterwards indicates one more 7th level spell.

Ranger Dual Class Options. The levels shown indicate where the ranger class gains a new weapon proficiency slot.

Level at time of Dual Class Maximum Level Achievable

Ranger.........Cleric
9..300000....39
12 1200000 38
15 2100000 34
18 3000000 30
21 3900000 26
22 4200000 23

Druid Dual Class Options.

Level at time of Dual Class Maximum Level Achievable

Druid..............Fighter
11*....200000 39
14~ 1500000 34
15^ 3000000 28
22....4150000 23

* indicates the first time 6th level spells are available.
~ indicates the first time 7th level spells are available.
^ indicates that 6 7th level spells are available and High Level Abilities become available.

Mage Dual Class Options.

Level at time of Dual Class Maximum Level Achievable

Mage..............Cleric......Fighter.......Thief. ......Max Spell Level
12 750000......39.............37............39....... .....6
14 1500000......36...........35..........39.......... ...7
16 2250000......33...........31.........36........... ...8
18 3000000......30..........28..........32........... ...9
20 3700000......27............25............29....... ...9 x 2
21 4125000......25..........22..........27
22 4500000......23.........................25........ ......9 x 3
23 4875000...................................24

Thief Dual Class Options.

Level at time of Dual Class Maximum Level Achievable

Thief.................Fighter......Mage.....Cleric .......Backstab Multiplier
5......10000.........39...........31...........39. ..........3
9.....110000........39...........31...........39.. .........4
13...660000........37...........29...........39... ........5
17..1540000........33...........27...........36... ........6 (Assassin Only)
21..2420000........30...........24...........32... ........7 (Assassin Only)
22..2640000........29...........23...........31
24~ 3080000........27........................29
25..3300000........26..........................28
26..3520000......................................2 7

~ indicates the level that High Level Abilities become available.

Sorry about the "format". If you would like it in Word Format send me an email and I will send it to you as an attachment.

Cheers

Wow. Very nice.

Thanks, I bet that took you some time!
Thanks for writing it!

[ August 21, 2002, 18:57: Message edited by: Gopher ]

@Gopher

And probably a lot more time than most would have invested.

@Khazraj

My question would be what, if any, dual-classed characters have you run and what did you think of them?

Thanks for posting this! I'm sure this will help many of us. How about sending it into SP as a submission?

I'm not sure how to submit it to SP. Perhaps Tal may let me know. I hadn't actually thought of that.

Gopher. Yes, I'm too hopeless to know how to set it up for this Forum, but it did not take too long, unless you consider about 2 hours of calculations and about 2 hours simply getting it into the "beautiful format" above...

Spelladonna. Actually I have tried a number of dual class characters and I am still working on them. I have never done the "ubercharacter" thing by taking it up to the latest possible level and then dual classing. If I did I would solo it.

I first finished the game with Thief Level 13 Dual to Mage Level x. I was dissapointed at only having access to Mage HLA's. Oops. Should have multiclassed. I was after a "upped" mage, but it didn't seem worth the hassle. I think plain mage type would have been better. Less thief and mage magical items to juggle around. Which amulet to use? Amulet of Power for Immunity to level drain and faster spells, or the Master Harper Amulet for -3AC? Choices! :confused: The rings of Wizardry and Acuicity or the Ring of Danger Sense and Lockpicks? Choices! :mad:

I have done a beserker druid (dualled at level 12), beserker cleric (Dualled at 12), beserker mage (dualled at 12). They are slightly "upped" versions of the plain classes. They can be a hassle up to the point of regaining the first class, and druids do this the most painfully.

I did a beserker thief (dualled at 12 or 1 million xp with 7 million to go!), but this was easy, since there are so many traps and locks that give easy xp that cost nothing to find.

After doing the tables I realised that an Assassin to Cleric Ubercharacter would be "fun" (I mean "unusual"). At level 24 thieves can get HLAs which means Use Any Item. Dualling to Cleric means that the Use Any Item ability stays with the 1st level cleric and they can wield bladed weapons! (ODD!) Also the cleric will be able to achieve level 27 (if dualled at level 26 thief) thereby gaining the Holy Symbol. Perhaps this is too much?

Obviously this is not to everybody's style, but if you feel like doing an ubercharacter, well why not? The game is still flexible enough to allow this. If this is just "dumb" do realistic dualling at a sensible lower level, like 9, 12 or 15. It would all depend on the first class and the one dualling to. (Perhaps, don't even dual class!)

My nephew got Sarevok in TOB and dualled him at level 18 to thief. Sounds dumb, but..... whenever he did his deathbringer assault, critical hit in a backstab... :eek:

Dual classing can be painful, but it really only will add to the second class in my view. The other sad point is that humans that do it will only ever get HLA's in the second class if they dual before they get them in the second class. This means dualling to the second class before about 3 million xp. (Or whichever level is the closest above 3 million xp). I expect that most people could not be bothered doing this since it is past the original SOA xp cap.

Other possible choices I have for dual class characters. Many ideas I drew from other players on this forum, so thanks for your ideas (and my sort of "plagiarism").

Wizardslayer Thief (to get UAI)
Cleric Thief (UAI for bladed clerical backstab!)
Swashbuckler Fighter
Swashbuckler Cleric (Dual Wield Clubs or Maces)
Assassin Mage

This is of course going to take time, but I like to experiment and explore. Besides BG2 is just so boring....(NOT!)

Cheers.

Spelladonna. Do you have any suggestions or new ideas that I have missed?

Just send it to me. sorcerer -AT- sorcerers.net

Add your info to a readme or the doc itself.

@Khazraj

Some pretty interesting combinations there. Perhaps it's time for me to make the switch. As a rule, I don't run human characters except for my paladins. That stems from my PnP days where human characters were boring. If you've read my other posts, you'll know that I tend to run elves, though BG limits me to the race in general. Multi-classing allowed me to continue to improve in both (and in rare cases, all three) classes and keep my interest.

As I said though, perhaps it's time to see what I may have been missing.

khazraj, if you are looking for other powerful combo's:

Fighter/Cleric (fighting power plus spells for boosting that power)
Berserker/cleric
Fighter/Mage (Mage with loads of hitpoints even when dualed at level 9 the effect is still great)
Kensai/mage (discussed too many times already)
Kensai/thief (fighter monster wearing armor)
Ranger/Cleric (Druid and cleric spells)

Did anybody notice I love fighters?

Kensai thieves can wear armor?

Well yeah, but I needed sk to create the class, is it not a legal combination??

Thanks for the advice about fighters. I had thought about that, but since fighters are mostly for melee combat, I decided that a beserker would be more "chunky" because of the Enrage ability. So the loss of 5* missile weapons didn't matter much. (Besides if you have axe or dagger you can still have 5* missile by default!)

Kensai thief could wear armour when the thief class gets the HLA Use Any Item at around thief level 24, or 3 million xp.

On that note, multi class characters get the HLA's when their total xp is 3 million in all classes. This means an Elf FMT (of FMC) will get them at 1 million xp in all three classes, or level 12 fighter. Normally a single class fighter would not get them until level 20, or at the 3 million xp mark. Perhaps FMT is better?

So, does a dual class kensai thief get the HLA's when total xp is 3 million? I don't remember about my original thief dual mage. Probably not.

Don't forget that any combination of thief that can get Use Any Item is going to be very, very "unusual".

An example is when I first used Jan all the way and he got UAI ability, I had Cespenar make the Bard's Wonderous Gloves for the extra spells, because he is a spell user right? With this, Dakkon Zerth blade, rings, amulets, Ioun stone and other mage HLA's his spell book looked almost as chunky as Edwins!

I wonder...

The only hassle with a dual classed kensai thief is that unless you do an "ubercharacter" you can't get the HLA's for fighters such as whirlwind attack. You could do some but probably not more than 5 HLA's. I've never done it. Modjahed would probably know.

Cheers

Perhaps FMT is better The only problem I ran across with a FMT is that you do not get the mage HLAs. Don't know if that is a bug or what, but all I would get were fighter and thief HLAs.

Modjahed would indeed know....

If we aer talking about "ubercharacters" than we are probably talking about soloing them.

To solo a Kensai/Thief you have to dual-class at level 9 - otherwise you are screwed. So no fighter HLA's for solo Kensai/Thief.

If not solo - than you can make a 25/27 character that will give him 6 fighter HLAs - at levels 20,21,22,23,24,25.

Edit:
I remebered a few more nice dualclassing combinations:

Kensai 9/Druid XX.
Swashbuckler 10 (for +3 to Hit, to Dam, to AC and 100 in Traps, Locks and Detect Illusions)/Cleric XX.

The bonuses you can figure out by yourself.

[ August 22, 2002, 23:06: Message edited by: Modjahed ]

Spelladonna.

I remember seeing on the Baldurdash website a "bug fix" that was apparently passed by Bioware (don't quote me because I may be wrong) that would allow the FMT to get the mage HLA's. I did download it, but I've not yet used it.

Modjahed.

I am confused. You are screwed if you don't dual class at level 9 for kensai thief? I thought that you could wait a bit till later? Can you clear up my confusion? Thanks.

I think Modjahed means it's too hard if you're soloing. If you dual out at 25, it's going to be a LONG time before you're a competent fighter again, and you're not going to be much of a thief for a good period, either. If you dual out at 9, you'll have your fighter abilities back very quickly, and they'll keep you alive until you mature as a thief.

[ August 23, 2002, 09:12: Message edited by: Judas ]

That's very nice work Khazraj.

If you wanted to really get an ultimate uber character, then you would be best of ina very small party I'd say, to support your main while you were dualing. The prob. is that you barely get to play your new uber character before the game's over anyway, and you miss out on alot of the great role playing ;) .

but then you can export him and import him in a new game and solo red dragon without a scratch. :eek: :eek:
At least you could do this in BG1. I went through the game collected all the books and exported the same char into next game, pcked all the books again and exp...
It wasnt that much fun with an archer 25 25 25 25 25 25 in SoA though :( , did over 30 damage with every hit :cool:

Dual classing a wizard slayer thief is also tough if you dual at a high level, but I made it :D and in the end it's all worth it.

I just realised that I am a dummy :eek: because in the table I stated the options for Druids, who can't dual class. Oops! I deleted the stuff and resent it to Tal, who I hope will forgive me, to be put up at SP. Sorry everybody.

I thought about some more Dual class options. Modjahed suggested a Kensai Druid and I am definitely going to try it out ;) . It should be scary!

Stalker Cleric Dual at level 17 for x3 Club backstabs!

Beastmaster Cleric. Not sure when to dual class.

Priest of Talos Thief. Can get the UAI at a later stage and so should be able to use bladed weapons!
Not sure when to dual class.

Priest of Lathander Ranger. Probably dual class at a lower level because it is not possible to get the Holy Symbol at level 25 cleric and the latest level for cleric is 22. :(

Conjurer Cleric. Now I can have a conjurer who can have True Sight! :cool:

Necromancer Thief. Sounds evil and gross.

Swashbuckler Cleric. Dual at a late stage for UAI and can keep the bladed weapons. Would have a nice AC to make up for Clerics poor dual wielding skills.

I considered all the kits and major classes and I decided that some of the options would be too useless. Wizardslayer dualled to mage or cleric is hopeless because they can't use rings, amulets, wands etc. Pointless choice.

The Priest Kits can be combined almost anyhow as can Specialist Mages. These could produce some really interesting combinations.

Spelladonna.

I have been recently playing a Solo + Imoen Gnomish Fighter Thief and it is true that Multi classing has some huge advantages over Dual classing. At the point that the HLA's kick in, I was level 14 Fighter 16 Thief. With only a 40000xp gap for the next level up in thief class, I got 2 HLA's in only 80000 xp. Going solo meant it happened really fast. So it feels like you have so many HLA's.

Dual and Multi classing both feel different when playing. Multi would seem a little more powerful, but class options are more restrictive.

Cheers

Did you test if all those dual class options are valid?

[ August 24, 2002, 15:30: Message edited by: StressedE ]

Aren't all dual-class options supposedly valid (except for classes that can't be dualled?). IIRC, only multi-class has limits on it.

Stressed.

I am currently experimenting and trying them out. If there are major boo boos then I'll let everyone know. Some of course are just plain silly, eg. Wizardslayer Mage who can't use any magical items.

Others may be invalid, but when I find out, I'll say so. I'm just having fun here. I admit that I stuffed up about the Druids. (I've even tried dual classing pure druids before and I forgot! Doh. Sorry).

Did some checks just before.

Fighters and all three kits can dual to Cleric, Druid, Mage or Thief. Just check alignment for Druid.

Clerics and all three kits can dual to Fighter, Mage and Thief, except Priest of Lathander which can dual to Ranger as well, due to being Good aligned.

Rangers and the only kit, Beastmaster, can dual to Cleric. I'm not sure why Stalker and Archer cannot dual class, but it must have something to do with files. I made an ubercharacter to test, so I'm fairly sure it is not alignment clashes or ability score problems. Any ideas Extremist?

Thieves and all three kits can dual class to Fighter, Cleric or Mage.

All specialist mages can dual class to Fighter, Thief or Cleric.

This pretty much exhausts all options, not that all of them would be sensible.

[ August 25, 2002, 05:47: Message edited by: Khazraj ]

You could dual a kensai to thief? I needed sk to do that...
Maybe I didn't have the right stats...

Yes you can, but the character I used was a hack, as I said. So the game must check stats out. When I first tried to dual Kensai to Druid I had the alignment correct and wisdom and charisma of 18. It would not let me do it. So I was shocked. I changed the intelligence to 18 also and then it allowed it. I don't know which checks are going on here. Still it is valid, whereas a Stalker Cleric is not.

Ah, Khazraj!

People are all so hasty those days....

Looks like you will need to put the info on druids back in the table and re-send it to Tal again.

Because druids CAN dual-class, and I've tested it just yesterday. I have made a following character:

Totemic Druid lvl 15 dual to Fighter.

You just have to get the ability scores right, and use the appropriate weapons afterwards.

[ August 25, 2002, 13:46: Message edited by: Modjahed ]

To put it bluntly: It's not sensible to dual class in ToB! :(
Multi-class is so much better which is quite the opposite to how it was/is in BG2:SoA.

Modjahed.

You make me kick myself! How did you go with the stats? I tried only a regular Druid and Avenger.

When I first tried the Kensai Druid it failed on me, so it must have been stats problems.

Help! I need to check if I still have the older version! I probably deleted it.

Thanks for the check though! I could've sworn that.....

I'm gonna make a guide to dual classing because there are so many questions about it.
I've tried all allowed kit combinations.

Here's a summary:
(from) -> (to)

fighter(any kit) -> Cleric V Mage V Thief V Druid
Ranger(pure or beastmaster) -> Cleric
Cleric(any kit) -> Fighter V Mage V Thief
Druid(any kit) -> Fighter
Mage(any kit) -> Fighter V Cleric V Thief
Thief(any kit) -> Fighter V Cleric V Mage

for any other possibility you will need SK

On a side note Avengers CAN DC to fighter if you can give them a +1 STR upgrade,

If you know something I don't then please inform me ;)

[ August 27, 2002, 21:15: Message edited by: StressedE ]

@Khazraj:

Druids have TWO major stats instead of one: wisdom and charisma. So to dual to druid from a fighter you have to have 17 in WIS, CHA and 15 in STR, and from fighter to druid 15 CHA, WIS and 17 STR.

In both cases you need to be of True Neutral alignment.

@StressedE:

Clerics (Lathander or pure good-aligned) can dual to Ranger. ;)

You are indeed correct Modjahed

Remember, Jaheira is a Fighter/Druid after all :)

Is it possible to dual-class to or from a Paladin?

Paladins can't dual class.

Modjahed.

I had stuffed up on the Strength part. The druid character I first used only had 16. I wrongly assumed that the game would allow the player to enter the dual classing menus and simply not allow the dual class switch. That's what I remember BG1 doing. Oh well. I resent the fixed file to SP.

On this note of dual classing.

Let's start with a character that get to level 9 in the first class and needs to get to level 10 in the next to regain skills.

Fighter to Thief needs 250 000 + 160 000 = 410 000xp.
Fighter to Cleric needs 250 000 + 450 000 = 700 000xp.
Fighter to Mage needs 250 000 + 250 000 = 500 000xp.
Fighter to Druid needs 250 000 + 125 000 = 375 000xp. :)

Ranger to Cleric needs 300 000 + 450 000 = 750 000xp.

Cleric to Fighter needs 225 000 + 500 000 = 725 000xp.
Cleric to Thief needs 225 000 + 160 000 = 385 000xp. :)
Cleric to Mage needs 225 000 + 250 000 = 475 000xp.
Cleric to Ranger needs 225 000 + 600 000 = 825 000xp.

Druid to Fighter needs 90 000 + 500 000 = 590 000xp.

Thief to Fighter needs 110 000 + 500 000 = 610 000xp.
Thief to Cleric needs 110 000 + 450 000 = 560 000xp.
Thief to Mage needs 110 000 + 250 000 = 360 000xp. :)

Mage to Fighter needs 135 000 + 500 000 = 635 000xp.
Mage to Cleric needs 135 000 + 450 000 = 585 000xp.
Mage to Thief needs 135 000 + 160 000 = 295 000xp. :)

It is easy to note that some combinations are easier than others as far as xp is concerned. What I found "cute" was that A druid dual classing to fighter takes longer than a fighter dual classing to druid, despite level 9 druids having the lowest required xp of any class!

If collecting xp is going to be a problem then as a quick guide it gives a rough idea of how long it will take to regain first class skills. (very, very rough in fact.)

Happy experimenting.