It seems to me that the only good reason to have a paladin is because of the “dispels magic as if he was double his current experience level” special ability of the Inquisitor. That’s very useful! The immunity to charm and hold is good, but in TOB your saves should be excellent anyway. The ability to use Carsomyr is good, but a Kensai-thief could do it better. True seeing is a very important spell in TOB, but mages could cast it too. Immunity to level drain is an ability granted by several weapons in TOB, as well as the rage of a barbarian. Immunity to fear is granted by several items, and even a low level spell really helps prevent fear (resist fear). Perhaps, there is something I am not considering though. So, for those who use a paladin other than an Inquisitor, please tell me why.

Inquisitor is really good, I mean he is practicly evened out by not being able to Lay on Hands, or cast Priest spells (Which is in my opinion, one of the best reasons for having a paladin) But the dispell magic at 2x the level is amazing, if you are stunned, in fear, or practictly affected by anything magical, you instantly dispell it...Can dispell some annoying mage protections too

Note: You'll be dispelling good spells too unfortunatly, (Haste ect.)

[This message has been edited by Person_Persival (edited May 31, 2002).]

Kull

Inquisitors are STUPID:evil:.The dispell is usseles if you are tremling with fear:evil: and he cannot heal himself if he doesn't have priest spells and lay on hands.

Cavaliers are the best:angel:

CAVALIERS RULEEEEEEEEE!!!:angel:
INQUISITORS SUCKKKKKKK!!!:evil:
ITS TRUE TOO.NO BULLLLLLL!!!:angel::evil:

Padine, three words. Get A Life
Quit bashing what people say, just because you think that something is better, Cavaliers can be level drained, and they are not the be all and end all class. Let me show you my Mage/Theif that I soloed SoA with, he could walk all over your Cavalier that is so precious to you, and not take a scratch.

And your 11 years old? I find that incredibly hard to believe, my little brother is 9 and he would listen to the Admin/Mod when told to look at the FAQ especially with as many times as you have been told to look at it.

[This message has been edited by DeBhaal Stasion (edited May 31, 2002).]

So you main is powerful.Well my guy was affected by some weird thing that I have been told is called "BUG" and it gave him 25 in all stats,470hp,immunity to everything,grandmastery and more priest and mage spells.So you thief wont get a scratch huh.*SIGH*.He will get F****d so bad you will be quivering by the power of my main:evil:.And i am 11 YEARS OLD.HOW MANY TIMES MUST I REAPEAT IT!!!I AM GOING TO BE 12 ON THE4/6/2002.OKAY

Sorry BlakthroneTA.

[This message has been edited by Padine the Paladin (edited May 31, 2002).]

Knock it off you bozos. Stick to the topic.

Padine, for the good of us all...just read the blimmin' FAQ.

Anyway, I think the Inquisitor is a good alternative to the Paladin, and you should have a cleric to do all the Healing/Casting in your party, and IMO the Inquisitor is better at fighting mages than even the Wizard Slayer.
And as Person_Persival said above, he/she can dispel almost anything if need be.
Although i agree his talents are a bit wasted in later stages of ToB.

I wanted to stick to the topic, but I can't. I just have to say....

:flaming: Padine, Paladins ought to be lawfull and good, not chaotic neutral. Read the manual to know with what I associate you. Read the FAQ aswell. And it's also quite annoying to see you have a big mouth to some of us, but that you are a sweet little boy ('sorry, BlakthroneTA') when an administrater sais something about it...
And don't expect a postcard for your birthday.

Back to the topic:
I found Inquisitors and Cavaliers both very usefull and a party with both of them is quite cool, but not much a challange.
I agree with Gopher that a party should have a cleric to heal your party (I never use lay on hands myself). Not all partymembers can heal theirselves, that's what your cleric's for.

MoN

I prefer the cavalier's spellcasting ability, fearlessness, immunity to charm and his remove fear to the cavalier's abilities. That doesn't mean Inquisitors are useless, to the contrary. However, my major criticism on that class has always been that there is a pretty good inquisitor in the game already, wether you like him or not. So why should I play one?

PS: Padine the Paladin,
Since nothing is infinite, patience especially, a hint you should appreciate:
Only because you're an 11 year old you won't get a tolerance-bonus forever. And becoming 12 in a week won't change that. At some point you have start to post some sense to continue enjoying the boards. Reading and understanding the Forum Rules (http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/rules.htm) would be a good start ...

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited May 31, 2002).]

Isn't a high level fighter-cleric with the cloak of bravery more powerful than the cavalier? The only ability that the paladin kits have that is not duplicated by items, spells, or special abilities elsewhere is double-powered dispel. That still seems to me to be a high recommendation for an inquisitor.

Please don't be confused. I am not planning on any paladin being my avatar. However, I do currently use an inquisitor in the group.

I'm not sure that some other class might be better than the inquisitor. I certainly have not been convinced yet that the other kits or true paladin class are better than the inquisitor. But I'm still listening...

The point is that a high-level fighter-cleric cannot use bladed weapons (basically a question of style ;) ). Additionally the cloak of bravery is iirc the evil nymph cloak from the test in hell ... :nono: you cannot compare such a char with a pally ;)
Additionally the cavalier will have a better THACO since he doesn't share levels like the fighter-cleric. And IMO the cavalier's remove fear is unmatched.

However, a fighter cleric will have more spells to cast, higher levels one especially. It's completely up to how you'll play the char. I cannot really say who's better. Note that a cavalier will have a higher effective caster level than a fighter-cleric - that will especially make spells like draw upon holy might very powerful. Maybe a ranger-cleric would be stronger ...

Of course, I can make the comparison of fighter-cleric with paladin. I am simply trying to discern the most effective team.

I'll probably get the cloak in hell. I feel that some of the evil choices are most beneficial to avatar. Hence, the avatar's alignment will become evil, even though he typically acts neutral good. (I've never let alignment issues concern me.) It's interesting that Sarevok and Viconia can change alignment in TOB, but what about the avatar...

Remove fear is a spell. Counterparts are available to cleric and mage. What makes the cavalier's version superior?

Once the paladin and cleric-fighter are past level 22, I think the thaco will be in favor of the cleric-fighter who can choose grand mastery. (I've been told that THACO stops improving at level 22.)

The higher effective caster level will matter - but with only a relatively few spells and the difference will not be great.

As you have admitted, the fighter-cleric will certainly be able to cast more spells. However, he will never be able to cast a double powered dispel magic...

ok, in brief:
<LI>A lvl-16 cavalier has 16 remove fear spells available, so he can encourage his party all day, never again have a char running around panicked, ending up dead in a trap or beeing beaten up by monsters ... The cloak of courage? I know better things to put on my chars ....
<LI>A fighter-cleric can only achieve grandmastery ***** when he is dualclassed. I actually though you were talking about a multiclassed char, limited to specialised **. Grandmastery ***** is massively hyped in BG-2 (unlike as in IWD where it gives a full bonus attack), actually specialisation ** is absolutely suitable for all combat needs. A dualclassed fighter-cleric will never beat the THACO of a pure cavalier of same strength, unless you dual him really late. A multiclassed fighter-cleric will need very much xp to eventually be even with a pally in terms of THACO, it's a very long way up to lvl-22 when you have two classes to "feed". So IMO a pally offers more bang for the buck over the game.

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited May 31, 2002).]

I'm not sure what is going on here. But I know that Greater Restoration should remove Fear amongst other things (beserking, confusion, etc.). All you need is a nice helm or weapon for your cleric/fighter that protects from fear, so he/she can cast spells on other party members.

As for ultimate dispel? Bah. Dispel Magic itself is not so beautiful as you probably already noticed.

Part I
Thanks, Ragusa, for the data provided supporting your opinion. Honestly, I was thinking multi-class and forgot that the multi-class fighters are denied the extra proficiency slots. :shame:

TOB allows the use of teams I would not find enjoyable in SOA. High level dual classing is possible, and game mechanics can favor multi-classing.

I agree that the paladin will be the better fighter and the poorer spell caster, generally, throughout the game.

Conversely, my opinion still favors the inquisitor, so far.

Part II
Hey, you are right, Extremist. I have noticed that. Dispel magic usually removes negative effects from my party, but I seldom see it strip defenses or make the enemy softer targets. That's not what the spell description would suggest. What's up with this spell?

What is your opinion, Extremist, concerning the best paladin and his merits over some other character (such as the fighter-cleric) for the most effective team?

[This message has been edited by Kull (edited May 31, 2002).]

When you really need to dispell magic on characters that have become dominated or confused or otherwise enchanted by some harmful spell, nothing will do that better than an inquisitor's dispell magic ability. Dispell magic is very nice to have available...much more so than remove fear. Its really quite overpowered actually, but that isn't the debate is it.

Quote from Blackthorne TA:
Knock it off you bozos...

ROTFLMAO! :)
Sorry about posting off topic here, but I had to say that I found BTA's reply crisp, very funny and right on the money!