Here's a topic that's bugged me for a bit, but that I never explored enough to figure out. ("Self," I said, "ask the room, someone will know.") I searched but couldn't find anything on point.

If your character has "natural" saves below zero, with even further modification [for example, my character has a save vs. death of something like -2(-7)] and is then hit with greater malison (making you save at -4), what happens?

My understanding (which may be wrong), is that even with a negative saving throw, if you roll a 1, you don't save. So, how does greater malison impact the question? Is the -4 tacked on to the listed throw (i.e., making the -2(-7) the equivalent of +2(-3), and really making no change to the fact that you only fail the save on a 1 because of the equipment) or is it tacked on to the default missing throw of "1" (making your failed save a 5 and below)?

Obviously, if the latter, it's a far more powerful spell than I thought and one I need to counter as much as possible (and use as much as possible). If the former, big deal, I can ignore it and move on with the battle.

I can't say I've tested it, but I'd say it's applied the the goal number, not the roll. As you suggest, it's the same thing either way, except in the case of crits. I suspect only a natural 1 is an automatic fail. +3 weapons don't crit on 17... I know it's not the same thing, but it's along the same line of thought.

There are ways to ruin godly saves, though. Being hit with the nasty end of Bless/Chant, Greater Malison, then Doom would take back into the "vulnerable" category. I don't think it's intended, but Doom stacks with itself. Being hit with 3 casts of Doom will worsen your saves by 6.

It's the first one you said, of course.
There are still a lot of spells save at -2 or -4, so greater malison still has effects in the situation you described.

[ June 24, 2003, 04:36: Message edited by: 14 ]