If you could make one super-tank, ow would you do it?

Try to keep the character completely legal according to the Baldur's Gate II rules.

Personally, my vote goes for the multiclassed Cleric/Ranger. DUHM and Stoneskin are great while dual-weilding the Flail of Ages and the Defender of Easthaven.

Fighter/Mage (dual or multi):

- Stoneskin
- Mirror Image
- Blur
- P.f.Magical Weapons

And many others buffs...

Blade

3 stars Two-Weapon Prof.
All the good buff mage spells:
-Tensor's Trans.
-Stoneskin
-Mirror Image
-Blur
-Spirit Armor
-Prof. from M. Weapons
-Protection from Magical Energy
-Protection from Elements
-Improved Haste

The best special ability in the game:
-Offensive Spin

Basically, you'll be a higher level fighter than the single class fighter, minus an attack or 2 (1/2 for specialization, 1/2 for fighter level 9 and 1/2 for fighter level 13?)

Dwarven Fighter for Con bonus and save bonus. A tank is suppose to eat spells as well as physical attacks and making your saves makes everything hurt alot less.

Interesting choices everybody.

I.S.: Would you go straight Dwarf Fighter, or take a kit, or multiclass that guy?

I'd probably go with the berserker kit, which, "legally" rules out many multi-class, simply for the immunity to the likes of imprision, maze and what not. A berserker with the properly functioning Azuredge is Kangaxx's worst nightmare. Also a bersker can ignore those annoying level drains when raging.

From personal experience, I agree w/thetruth.

I rekon a half orc beserker would do pretty well as the jump for the to hit and damage bonuses from, say 18/76 to 19 is pretty good. that, plus being able to stand up against most stunning effects as Ilmater's Suffereing said before

A dwarven berserker, hands down. IMO a tank should be able to tank every encounter without having to rest to regain spells. Yes magic can create a tough tank, but only for one or two encounters, a true tank can tank for an entire dungeon without resting (providing healing is available).

Berserker/Cleric is my favorite tank. Berserk with chaotic commands and he is nearly unstoppable. It is also boringly good solo class.

Elf F/M

Indeed, best tank IMO is the one that can charge into battle any time, ripping trough enemies while laughing to their strikes.
Either half orc berserker, or then the dwarven one. Those two have what it takes, althought monk can be a tank also at later levels.

Wouldn't a dwarf Barbarian be better than a dwarf Bersker? Or do the Barbarian's not get quite the same resistances when they are in their own berserk state?

Barbarians miss out on the berserker's immunity to imprisonment, so no soloing beholder lairs or Demi-Lichs. :p

Barbarians miss out on the berserker's immunity to imprisonment, so no soloing beholder lairs or Demi-Lichs.That's actually an error in the description. Barbarian rage most certainly protects against imprisonment even in the unmodded game.

Barbarians miss out on the berserker's immunity to imprisonment, so no soloing beholder lairs or Demi-Lichs. Perhaps that's what the manual says, but the rages are nearly identical. I'd say a Human Berserker->Mage, though, for the buffing spells.

Barbarian rage most certainly protects against imprisonment even in the unmodded game The Barbarian's rage does not give immunity to imprisonment.And it's the only difference between the two rages.
IIRC there is a mod though that makes them identical.But I don't remember the name.

According to the thing that I have the Barbarian gets a temporary boost to strength. Which the Fighter Berserker doesn't get.

Testing it in my game it's roughly the same way. Though the Barbarian Rage in my game puts up it's own little icon as well as the mind shield icon when used.

But I haven't tried it against something with Imprisonment yet. If I can get my head into a game instead of RL I think I'll play a Barbarian though to try it.

Just checked the unmodded file. It protects from maze, but not imprisonment. This was a confirmed bug with David Gaider and is fixed by Baldurdash and also the upcoming G3 fixpack.

Can't really say but definitely something magical. I would probably go with Jaheira-style fighter/druid if you pressed me. Cleric/mages aren't bad if you get the spells right and enough time to cast everything, then you can outdo the fighter in melee combat without casting further spells, I believe.

Also, at high levels, fighter/clerics seem to have enormous advantage over fighters. Just think Heal.

I don't think Baldurdash fixed it Drew.

Are you sure? I don't have a Baldurdash install for comparison it anymore, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Yes,I never play a game without it.

Best legit tank? Fighter/Mage multiclass with Grandmastery in Staves...

Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Improved Haste, Tensor's Transformation, Improved Invisibility, Blur, Spirit Armor, SI: Abjuration, SI: Divination...and then just rip into anything and everything.

If you are really high level, activate Critical strike with that Staff of the Ram +6 and see the chunks fly. I honestly cannot think of a better LEGIT tank in-game. If you wanted to make it mod-inclusive, remove the XP cap and play an FMC... :D :D :D

It just doesn't feel right having a Fighter/Mage not dual wield.

I never used that staff before, its obvious that it can deal out a nice amount of damage, but are the affects on striking (stun & knockback) stopped by MR or include a save vs. component that isn't stated?

Critical Strike is nice in theory but so many enemies have a helmet it just doesn't deal out the huge damage it could, although it is nice having guaranteed hits against the high ac ascension characters.

[ May 22, 2006, 17:39: Message edited by: Pseudospawn ]

As for the Staff. Put it this way. It's the weapon that is used to do the highest possible damage backstabs/backsmacks ever done.

The knockback affect only has a small percentage chance of working(like 5% or something like that). I'm not sure if there is anything that causes it not to work other than that. These other guys might know.

I was under the impression that Hindo + Equalizer inflicted an equal if not greater amount of damage with True Grandmastery.

I never backstab outside of a solo game as its often too damn powerful and i prefer my team to march in face the enemy like men, and heroicly slaughter them all. not sneak around stabbing/smacking.

The barbarian's problem is his inability to wear better then chainmail, which means he gets hit... a lot. Also the berserker's frenzy lasts quite a bit longer then the barbarian's rage.

The barbarian's immunity to backstab makes him useful in some places, but his resistances to damage during SoA are so small they've never made a difference for me.

I have to go with the Barbarian on this one. I took a solo Barbarian through most of a rather heavily-modded game -- enough to say they are great tanks. The best chain mail is only (if memory serves) 2 AC higher than the best plate, which doesn't make that big of a difference, whereas the 20% damage reduction and the d12 hitpoints are a huge help.

The Equalizer has some nice potential damage but it's unreliable. It relies on the randomness of the enemy alignments.

Ilmater some of the best armor's in ToB are only rated as Leather so they can get the same AC as any other character. In fact if your not playing a Bard or a mage/something combo then there are a few different chainmails that are actually quite good. Including the Chainmail from the black Dragon in the End of SoA.

The berserker rage only lasts like 30 seconds. According to the stuff that i have that's not any longer than the Barbarian Rage but I haven't tested it.

20% Damage reduction at level 19 is a pretty good reduction and can mean a lot. And that's more than duable just in unmodded SoA. But considering that we are in the ToB forum saying it doesn't mean much in SoA is not entirely a ringing endorsement for being weak. It would mean a lot more in the SoA forum.


Though this is all making me think that perhaps my Cleric should wait and I should play a Barbarian to see just how well they do. I've never bothered to play one seriously or for the full game.

Slight correction: Barbarians cannot wear anything heavier than splint, not chain. Basically all that means is that they cannot wear plate. Only two of the four dragonscale armors are considered plate mail.

The damage reduction is significant, and with the extra 18 HP, it makes the barbarian able to take almost twice as much damage as a fighter, especially when other damage-reducing items (like the Belt of Inertial Barrier) are added on top of that. I still stand by the Berserker->Mage for unadulterated a$$-kicking + absolute protection, though.

@Felinoid
Agreed. Fighter/Mage in any setup is gonna walk away with it.

Barbarian may be able to reduce the damage taken and have more hitpoints to burn through.

But a good fighter/mage won't take any damage whatsoever.

@starwalker
I don't know how unpreditcable the damage is though. Most everyone you fight in the game is evil and of an extreme (chaotic/lawful)

Only if you have installed a mod to make them that way. We had that discussion about the Carsomyr when we were talking about weapons that did the most damage. It was tested against a Drow and it was only evil. it wasn't Chaotic or Lawful.

Those that talk about other things that are creatures in the game say there are a number of things that got marked as neutral in their files as well. Alignments are all over the place with creatures. The oversight mod has a component that fixes that but I haven't installed it at this point.

Looking through the item files, I made a surprising discovery. The best plate in the game (barring the disintegrating Drow armor) is AC -2, and the best chain/splint mail in the game is...AC -2! The only thing is that there are four sets of plate with AC -2 (Armor of the Hart +3, Tracie's Plate +5 *cursed*, Enkidu's Full Plate +3, & Shuruppak's Plate), there is only one set of chain/splint mail with AC -2 (White Dragon Scale), only available in ToB. Before then, the best you can get is AC 0 or 1.

Also, the only (physical) damage reduction items I could find were the Belt of Inertial Barrier and the Defender of Easthaven. Still, taking only 60% damage is incredible. Especially when a single Hardiness can reduce that to 10%. :grin:

Ultimately, a Barbarian->Mage would be teh pwn, but that's not possible, even with SK.

EDIT:
Though I do remember hearing about a mod that allowed it...

Also, the only (physical) damage reduction items I could find were the Belt of Inertial Barrier and the Defender of Easthaven. You forgot Roranach's Horn (Gromnir's helmet) for an additional 50% crushing resistance ;)

Also a Fighter/Thief or a Cleric/Thief can do even better.Both of them could use Jan's Armor which gives + 25% physical resistance.
And the Cleric/Thief instead of Hardiness can use Armor of Faith (+ 25% phys.res.).Lower resistance than Hardiness but with a much longer duration.

There's one other item with Damage reduction but I don't know that a PC of any usable kind for this discussion could wear it. Jan Jansen's armour.

edit: nevermind. TheTruth just answered that.

Also the Rat form from the Cloak of the Sewers grants 90% resistance to physical damage.But it's not cumulative with the resistance of other items,AoF or Hardiness.

Who knows if it is cumulative with the Barbarian's innate p.resistance.It would be the only way for a character to have +100% ph.res. in the unmodded game.

Hmm. I was very thorough with the armors (and helmets and shields), but I didn't think of looking in the components (Roranach's Horn is used to improve the Staff of the Ram). Nice catch. :) Jan's armor is usable only by CN gnome M/Ts with at least 4 STR and 17 DEX.

And yes, a Berserker->Cleric would get Armor of Faith, but they would be denied Stoneskin. A Berserker->Druid would have both AoF and Ironskins, though... :hmm: That makes for a whole new consideration, with the divine damage reduction spells giving pause against arcane absolute protection spells.

Jan's armor is usable only by CN gnome M/Ts with at least 4 STR and 17 DEX.

UAI ;)

Ah, of course. UAI. It fixes everything, doesn't it? :grin:

RE: Rat resistance
I don't think the barbarian bonus would stack, but items might. It'd be quite ironically hilarious if the best tank ended up being a puny little rat. :shake: Though I'm not sure I'd call that a tank; maybe just a meat-shield.

Faraaz said:
Best legit tank? Fighter/Mage multiclass with Grandmastery in Staves...Of course, a legit multiclassed character can't attain Grandmastery. ;)

Pseudospawn said:
It just doesn't feel right having a Fighter/Mage not dual wield.I disagree. I used a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist who switched between the Ravager Halberd and Staff of the Magi in melee. He was pretty powerful! When you think about it though, I do find dual weilding to be more powerful (I'm a fan of the Flail of Ages or Axe of Unyeilding with the Equalizer in the offhand).

Ilmater's Suffering said:
The barbarian's problem is his inability to wear better then chainmail, which means he gets hit... a lot. Also the berserker's frenzy lasts quite a bit longer then the barbarian's rage.It's a bit of a pain in SoA, but I find that I'm always getting hit, no matter what armor I wear in ToB.

starwalker said:
The Equalizer has some nice potential damage but it's unreliable. It relies on the randomness of the enemy alignments.Silghtly off-topic, but the reason IMO to use the Equalizer is for the defensive protections. The offensive bonuses are just gravy.

I don't think the barbarian bonus would stack, but items might Ah so nothing.I have tested the Rat form with the flail Defender but it doesn't stack.
Anyway the Rat form is not bad at all.You can distract enemies with your Rat-character and he will be able to resist a lot.

As for the best Tank I insist on the F/M (dual or multi).You don't need physical resistance when they can't hit you :D
And a F/M has a big advantage over R/C or F/D.He has Mirror Image and many other buffs.And also the only character who can protect them with SI.


EDIT : Just tested the Rat form with a Barbarian and his innate resistance stacks with that of the rat for a total of %110 physical resistance :eek:

And also I was wrong.Hardiness and resistances from items stack too ! For a max of %127 p.res..Unfortunately physical damage does not heal the rat :D

The drawback is that you can't stay for much time shapechanged and also the rat's claws do 2 dmg/hit (though it can still attack with the off-hand weapon).
I haven't tested what happens with some cats around though :D

[ May 23, 2006, 01:15: Message edited by: thetruth ]

We've recreated Mighty Mouse!!!!

@Klorox
I'm apprehensive about ravager. You complete it at the same time as Unyielding, it hardly seems worth it, although there are alot of nice halberds to keep you going till then, if you want to specialise.

Vorpal is glorious when it hits but axe of unyielding has the same effect with regeneration & ac. Even if i didn't want to dual wield for the extra 2hits and combat bonuses, i could put on a useful shield (harmony, reflection etc) and remove many dangers.

1handed just seems the way to go, the potential damage & immunities/bonuses from the 2nd hand outpower any 2h weapon (except maybe holy avenger).

[ May 23, 2006, 01:39: Message edited by: Pseudospawn ]

Yes 2-handed weapon style is not the best for a F/M.He can still use the Staff of the Magi for the dispelling but then dual wielding for the rest.Dual-Wielding + Improved Haste is what makes a F/M so special in offense.

Also the Axe of Unyielding allows a save vs. Death at -4.The description is wrong.

If were talking about a tank **looks at the topic title** then they don't necessarily need to do the dispelling.

I would have someone like jan at the back, hitting them with breach & whatnot, then pelting them with arrows of dispelling.

The tank's only job is to take the aggro and leave the enemies open for the rest of the party to attack, we're looking for a valuable team member not a soloist. ;)

The tank's only job is to take the aggro and leave the enemies open for the rest of the party to attack, we're looking for a valuable team member not a soloist. Yes but the F/M can do both at the same time without problems.Why not take full advantage of his abilities ? ;)

As I hate to rest for every other fight to restore my spells, I certainly don't go for the fighter/mage. My favorite class is the barbarian, which has a ton of hitpoints, damage resistance and can rage to become immune to a lot of things.

My last barbarian had 65% damage resistance (20% native, 20% DoE, 25% David Gaider's Bhaalpower), 100% fire resistance and 95% cold resistance, making him the most resistant tank I've ever created. Throw in Foebane +5 for the Larloch's Minor Drain and his hitpoints occasionally soared over the 300. With a Hardiness he could easily stand toe to toe with the demon on the second level of the WK. I love barbarians.

Also, the only (physical) damage reduction items I could find were the Belt of Inertial Barrier and the Defender of Easthaven. Still, taking only 60% damage is incredible. Especially when a single Hardiness can reduce that to 10%.20% you mean.

Wasn't there a mod out there that made Barbarians able to dual class!? In fact im very sure since i had a go at one earlier.

I could have sworn it was g3tweaks that allowed it but i can't seem to find any reference in the readme so its some other mod im running.

Isn't missile resistance a moot point if you know its coming? Surely you would just equip Shield of Reflection and let them eat their own arrows.

@henkie
A fighter/mage is a dependant on resting between big battles as your barb is on equipment.

It sounds to me like your barb is quite tame until they get their 'uber gear', hit a high enough level for the max innate resistance and get the 4th bhaalspawn power.

Thats alot of variables where as the fighter/mage is strong from the get go, able to withstand or avoid most every kind of damage, utilize every piece of equipment found and takedown the tougher monsters.

Fighter/Mages are better soloists and tanks.

Is it only 40% for Hardiness? I so rarely use it that I'm not that familiar with the specifics.
/me checks
Yep, you're right. I stand corrected. :)

It sounds to me like your barb is quite tame until they get their 'uber gear', hit a high enough level for the max innate resistance and get the 4th bhaalspawn power.

Thats alot of variables where as the fighter/mage is strong from the get go, able to withstand or avoid most every kind of damage, utilize every piece of equipment found and takedown the tougher monsters.

Fighter/Mages are better soloists and tanks. I love this argument. Even as wrong as it is. Several of the protection you guys rave about you have to both collect the scrolls to cast the spells you rely on as well as get to a high enough level to cast them. You might start with stone skin but that's hardly all the stuff you swear by.

On top of that the Fighter/Mage's biggest strength is what? Time Stop combat. An Affect that you can't even dispel protections in so you have to dispel the protections and then time stop and then attack.

You've got to gather your stuff much more than the barbarian does.

the Barbarian's bonus is that most of it's advantage needs no equipment or collected items to make. The Defender of East Haven is easy to get at the beginning of the game if you want to enhance the resistance. By the End of SoA with that single item Your only enhancing the Barbarian But I wouldn't sneeze at just about halving any physical damage the barbarian can take before you even get out of SoA.

The Barbarian makes an Excellent tank without Equipment. It doesn't take up a bunch of equipment slots to get the protection. It doesn't need to collect particular items such as spell scrolls to get that way. That leaves a lot of slots open to further increase his tankability in various ways.

the Inertial Barrier Belt is just one of those Items that is just further boosting. It adds on Magic protection to go with the Physical protection. Takes just one Item.

But I know you guys like to look at STats and stuff. So I'll bring something into the argument. Stat's.

To give the best Barbarian Stat's we'll go for an Evil Half-Orc Barbarian(or one that turns evil in the hell trials)

Half-Orc's can start with 19 strength and 19 Con but only 16 intelligence.

Purely in BG2 and not counting the books found in BG1 we end up with max-stats without stat boosting items like this.

Strength:24(19 Base, +3 for Evil Wrath, +1 Lum's Machine, +1 Deck of Many Things)
Dexterity:19(18 Base, +1 Lum's Machine)
Con:20/22*(19 Base, +1 Lum's Machine) There is a choice here though. +2 for Evil Fear =Faster regen or the limited immunity to weapons
Intelligence:17(16 Base, +1 Lum's Machine
Wisdom:19(18 Base, +1 Lum's Machine)
Charisma:19 (18 Base, +1 Lum's Machine)

I'll let you guys alter the numbers for having the books from BG1 applied on your own. The strength bonus in fact becomes non-existant with the books applied because you max out the strength. I think it's the only non- Crom Faeyr way to do it in a single game but they make the stat boost from the Barbarian Rage unimportant once you get it all together.


I bring up these numbers partly because they bring up key points. Should you wish to enhance your Barbarian you clearly don't need a Strength item(sacrifice a single point of strength from the best strength item in the game and even a good Barbarian doesn't need one) This let's you use the intertial Barier belt which is nice for any tank. The Regeneration though a bit slow is nice because it can let you put the regeneration items on other characters.

The Dexterity sadly is not quite enough even with a book of Dexterity to get an increase to AC and they cannot wear the one Armor that would give the Dex bonus that would put their Dexterity to 21. But the Dexterity boost is the only special thing they would get out of the armor anyway.

Intelligence and Wisdom Are great stats but not vital to the Barbarian Really.

Charisma only if your using him to sell stuff.

combined with the Resistances to all physical Damage that they do take. Which can be augmented by a couple items if you desire. They are an excellent tank. A Tank is a component to a Group. Not a do everything Character. The more I look into them the more I think they might be one of the best if not the best tanks out there.

Their advantages are constant and do not need real buffing or repeated rest and it leaves a lot of item slots open to Customize your character further through equipment and such. You could go for Elemental type Resistances. AC boosting Items. If your of the mind to have your Barbarian wield one of the best items in the game in the Flail of Ages. The Defender of East Haven is an easy to get second hand weapon that doesn't even require it's own Proficiencies to take advantage of.

It's got a lot of pluses for a non-magic casting character working in a position to be supported by magic casters.

[ May 23, 2006, 21:50: Message edited by: starwalker ]

I still have a problem with this 'not having to rest between big fights' argument.

The tank is part of a team, yes the barb may not be a spellcaster but one or more of their team is.

You're gonna have to rest anyway to give the clerics back their heals or the mages their breachs & lower resists. So how much of a hit is it to have to rest a tank that needs to buff when you're already going to in order to refresh the main spellcasters.

Actually with a good combination you can go through a number of fights without your mages having to rest or your clerics needing more heal spells. Without the need for the buffs on your tanks you also save a lot of spell slots.

I seem to have plenty of spells to go around for a while and mostly just make sure to replenish myself if I've gotten low on spells and I'm about to take something big on such as a dragon or a really hard enemy. The barbarian as your tank means you need even less healing spells. Get it regenerating and that goes even further. Regeneration items on other characters in the group and you find your casting less on them too.

mages have a lot of strengths other than just breaching a few mages and buffing things up.

mages have a lot of strengths other than just breaching a few mages and buffing things up. Actually with a good combination you can go through a number of fights without your mages having to rest or your clerics needing more heal spells. Regeneration items on other characters in the group and you find your casting less on them too. Well Duh. :rolleyes:

Pseudospawn:

My example was a poor one for this thread. My Gnome F/I that used Ravager was not the most powerful tank, even in his own party. The Axe of Unyeilding went to another character, and I agree that it's better.

2-handed weapons have some very nice effects that you wont find on any 1-hander. Soul Reaver will make melee enemies cry. Carsomyr lets you ignore a good deal of the mages in the game. Staff of the Ram does more damage then anything else you'll ever find. Staff of the Magi lets you escape most situations and remove enemy protections while still swinging.

Also take into consideration that no matter which you use, you'll have 10 attacks late game thanks to whirlwind.

Early game, 1-handed weapons are definitely better. Late game, I prefer 2-handers in most cases.

Staff of Magi whilst having some sweet constant effects and a dispel on hit, has a thac0 bonus that makes it far less effective in combat than an obvious melee weapon. and serves more as mean of escape for the weakly mage than weapon of mass destruction.

Carsomyr, even with this sword a paladin isn't as good a tank as f/m or barb, magic resistance removes most mage worries but cloak of mirroring has equal if not better effects. Plus i've always preferred the foebane/answerer & purifier combo for damage/defense/enemy weakening.

Soul Reaver, whilst having one of my favourite on hit effects is for evil characters only. Which sucks if you wanna play elitist good or redeem sarevok at some point.

The Thac0 bonus may suck on the Staff of the Magi but it's other bonuses are really nice. Not to mention that I don't think there there is a thing in the game that it cannot hit. If I'm not mistaken it's enchantment is pretty high.

Carsomyr also does a lot more than simply provide Magic Resistance. It's dispel affect is also powerful.

The cloak of mirroring's affects might be considered equal by some but not better. The affects are limited. There are far too many spells where it just doesn't protect you. Either because they aren't aimed directly at you or because it just plain does not affect them. For example. Cloak of Mirroring does nothing for you in an incindiary cloud or the like. Magic Resistance there is a chance each round that your in the spells area of affect that you will ignore that rounds damage.

Soul Reaver's got it's counterparts. The Azure Edge for example can only be used in a good characters hands yet it's rather useful for most of the game with the ammount of undead that exists.

SoM is +5 enchantment, and it has dispel per hit ability (%100 sure dispelling of everything), invisibility and pro from evil, and a cheesy Spelltrap which lasts practically till you rest. That weapon is the BEST a mage can ever dream to acquire no doubt that.

A F/M can always use 2-handed weapons like Staff of the Magi for it's special abilities (Dispel/hit,which ignores SI:Abjuration btw ;) ,Spell Trap) but he is far more effective using 2 weapons and improved haste.

Also the most damaging weapon in the game is the FoA +5 and not the Staff of the Ram,with one exception: when using the Critical strike HLA the Staff of the Ram does more dmg/hit.But it cannot even be compared to the FoA (best weapon in the game IMHO).

@Klorox: Oops!! My bad! I've been playing modded BG2 for so long I forgot only Specialisation for non-fighters!! :D Heh..well, I still stand by what I said. Okay, so you get like half an attack less, and you deal out like 1-2 points of damage less per hit...but you STILL do way more damage and have a LOT more staying power than any other melee tank in legit BG2...

It's hard to answer this question since personal preferences will come to play at some point - among other things.

As an analogy, is Belm the best one handed weapon for dual wielding since it increases your number of attacks, which further enhances the striking power of Crom Faer or any other weapon X in your main hand or is Crom Faer or any other weapon X the best one handed weapon since Belm further enchances its striking power by increasing your number of attacks? Then we'd have to take into consideration if you prefer Crom Faer to the Flail of Aegis, Celestial Fury...

It's how it is with this arguement. IMO, the best tank is the Blade - combine Thief HLAs, Bard HLAs and spells, you get the idea. But as a side effect the Blade also enhances the tanking abilities of his party mates - so the F/M, R/C or whatnot gain some hefty bonuses that in fact allow them to surpass the Blade's tanking ability. Personal preference then comes into play - if you think the Blade class is only a tool and the best tanking classes are in fact the F/M, R/C or whatnot then you'll have to settle on whether you want a tanker who can spam divine spells like there's no tomorrow (in the case of the R/C), cast arcane spells (like the F/M)...

You'll notice I failed to mention the Berserker/Barbarian. Remember that we were considering items in the original analogy, where we were concerned about the best dual wielding weapon. Where classes are being considered then remember that we're concerned about BG2 - and as far as BG2 is concerned, magic plays a very important role in how well a character can tank, especially in ToB. It's not fair to customize the game to fit a certain class only - as far as BG2 is concerned, for example, a Bard has as much access to powerful items right after escaping Irenicus' Dungeon as a Barbarian has access to that suit of Splint Mail and that Long Sword in the room northwest of where Irenicus caged you. As long as something is accessible then we can include it when we're considering the classes and their capabilities, as long as these items (or factors - the things that you experience or gain that make your character stronger in the game) come into play at a time where their usage can still be maximized.

If you could make one super-tank, ow would you do it?
Character class X + Spell Protections, good items and a Bard.

Tutu Tweak's Expanded Dual-Class Options allows you to dual a Barbarian (and a Wild Mage) immunity to damage and backstab is awesome and the extra speed is helpful.
Although the Barbarian is in fact a Fighter kit (which means you could use SK to MC one) there is a problem about the HPs: you don't get the maximum of the D12 whereas you can always get 10 points for a D10 on a level up.
This can be slightly annoying.

Tanking is essentially about buffing (via spells and items), high resistances and extra HPs.
IMHO a Barbarian/Druid would be great (or a Berserker in an unmodded game) just think about good old Jaheira.

Caradras: Can you dual a Barbarian into a Wild Mage, or is WM considered a kit?

WM is considered a kit. So you couldn't dual to it anyway (without SK) even if you didn't already have a kit. But even with SK the double kitting of Barbarian/Wild Mage is impossible.

You can only have one kit so you have to pick the kit in your first class hence it is possible -using the mod I mentioned- to create a Wild Mage and later dual into a Fighter (or a Thief or a Cleric) but not into another kit.
What you can do if you are not adverse to a little "tweaking" is using SK to make a MC character Wild Mage/Fighter or Barbarian/Mage.
It is also possible with SK to edit your character so you can start as a true class Fighter (or Thief or Cleric) and then dual into Mage and then edit your mage class to use the Wild Mage kit.
There is something to be said about a Barbarian/Mage as a tank but since it is not a legit option...

How would I make an uber tank? Making one right now: elven F/M/T, straight from the beginning of BG1 to the very end. Mainly soloing through BG1 for the fun of it, but I will have a full party later on, after Gorion's been revenged.

And why's F/M/T the best tank? Simply because of the versatility. All needed benefits from every class for tanking: the spells, the hitpoints and best of all: the knowledge from good scouting from where you can't be seen and the initiative in combat, severely maiming the opponent with the very first strike. In team combat, you attack from the shadows appropriately protected. Get all the attention you need for diversion, bring on your teammates with ranged weapons and spells.

In BG1 no tank is actually needed, since its ranged weapons and backstabbing that wins the day. And if you really want something between you and your enemies, try some monster summoning. Letting one of your teammates take punches is pointless, when you can fall back, fire another barrage of missiles and fall back again. It's not cowardice, it's tactics.

On the other hand, when going gets tough, and it's always hard on tanks, since they will eventually get hit, hard, the best tanks are those that can dish out the most damage, or take those punches and shrug them off. This is why F/M/T is the best. She can do both, right from the very begginning. Sure, she won't have any armor on if you want to use her full potential, but there are spells good enough for AC in the start not to mention about mirror image. In SoA you'll have stoneskins, elven chains and Robe of Vecna. In ToB (or sooner) you'll have Jansen Adventure Wear(tm) and Hardiness with DoE AND all those spells which make the F/M so great.

Sure she won't have mage's high level spells, sure there won't be any 9th level spells at all and of course the mage part of her will be a little underplayed all the way. But you might want to look at it this way: we're looking at the best tank here, not the best caster.

Only things competing with F/M/T would be a dwarven F/T, but she won't have the spells from the very beginning, and F/M/C, but she won't have the possibility for those insta-kill weapons the F/M/T has, especially the Axe of the Unyielding.

@Iku-Turso
I think you've confused
"What makes the best tank, in your opinion?" (http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/10/5348.html) with
"Powergamer's choice: Which Fighter/Mage combo is best?" (http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/10/5251.html)

Tank's don't backstab or engage in missile combat.
They run in, draw the enemy's attacks leaving the enemy open for the rest of the tank's team to kill.

EDIT: yes i know a good tank would damage/weaken the enemy aswell, they just wouldn't do it from a distance or in the shadows.

Fine. If the backstabbing's a problem, then you can always use two-handed swords. And I never did say that this F/M/T would be using bows. That would be wasting a good tank.

And even if you wouldn't sneak up on the enemy, the F/M/T is still the best tank. She's got the spells, the UAI, and the fighter HLA's. These are IMO the things that make the best tank. AC is negligible, you'll never have enough of it to make it really count, but you can have an armored battle-mage from F/M/T with scrolls and wands, if you want.

A F/M/T makes the best tank in the game if you aren't using the fixpack. He gets the two items necessary to be a good tank (stoneskin and pfmw) and can potentially deliver more damage than any other class in the game. (Dual wield + Improved Haste + Assassination) In other words, he can suck up attacks just as well as a fighter/mage but, in some cases, can deliver a lot more damage.

What does the fixpack change that changes this status as ultimate tank?

People People People. Tanks are not a do everything character. The best solo character that can do everything does not necessarily make the best tank. The Tank is a Group Player.

Please keep that in mind. F/M/T is the ultimate solo char by a lot of people but it is not the best tank. There is so much that holds it back in a group that it's not even close to funny. A tripple class character like this may be very versatile and powerful on it's own but in a group it is vastly weaker than the other characters as a price for that versatility. It does not make a good tank at all. Jan Wearing some rediculously heavy armor that disables his spell costing is about the equivilant of a F/M/T as a Tank.

and you can have enough armor to make it really count. There are only a few enemies that can beat a good AC and they are particular creatures that the fight should be hard anyway. Things like Barbarians can weather a fair ammount of the blows from these types of enemies. Particularly when backed up by healing and support from the other characters in the group.

Fine. If the backstabbing's a problem, then you can always use two-handed swords. And I never did say that this F/M/T would be using bows. That would be wasting a good tank. 2 things to the two of you:
1. Backstabbing is excellent in a tank, Pseudo. It dishes out some serious damage to the worst enemy, followed up by the staying power of tanking. Backstabbing doesn't neccessitate running away to re-stealth.
2. Semantics and back-pedaling, I-T. You may not have said "bows", but you frequently referenced missile weapons and retreating from battle...
In BG1 no tank is actually needed, since its ranged weapons and backstabbing that wins the day. And if you really want something between you and your enemies, try some monster summoning. Letting one of your teammates take punches is pointless, when you can fall back, fire another barrage of missiles and fall back again. It's not cowardice, it's tactics. That being said...
And even if you wouldn't sneak up on the enemy, the F/M/T is still the best tank. She's got the spells, the UAI, and the fighter HLA's. These are IMO the things that make the best tank. AC is negligible, you'll never have enough of it to make it really count, but you can have an armored battle-mage from F/M/T with scrolls and wands, if you want. ...this is right on the money. And an SKed Barbarian/Mage/Thief would rock anyone. The only problem being the lack of levels. With XP split three ways, an F/M/T will be severely lagging behind their party by the end of ToB.

@Starwalker: If all things are equal between tanks, versatility and damage causing potential become the deciding factor in determining what makes "the best" tank. We already know that a warrior/mage-type character is "the best" tank in most situations since he will, in essence, be completely invulnerable to physical attack. The question becomes "what type of Warrior/Mage-type character is "the best". The answer is simple. Either a Fighter/Illusionist (more spells) or F/M/T (multiple assasinations if you aren't using the fixpack, UAI) is going to take the cake. A F/M/T or F/M will "out-tank" any warrior any time. This line of discussion is 100% valid concerning the question of what makes the best tank.

Versatility is a huge issue when determining what makes "the best tank". Remember, of all the characters in the party, your tank needs to be the best at not getting killed while embroiled in melee. The best characters at not getting killed in melee are druids (ironskins),mages, and bards(stoneskin, mirror image, PFMW, contingencies, and even Fireshield- since dead enemies can't damage your tank). Druids are out, though, because they just can't inflict the kind of damage that a F/M or even a bard can inflict. Fighter druids are in the running, but their defenses drop too easily to a simple dispell magic....a problem a wizard can easily circumvent.

With XP split three ways, an F/M/T will be severely lagging behind their party by the end of ToB. His levels will be high enough. He will have better spellcasting than a bard, all of his thieving skills maxed, and will only be missing a couple points from his Thac0 by the end of ToB when compared to a straight fighter. This type of character is unlikely to waste his HLA's on whirlwind since he can cast improved haste and dual wield, so any times where those couple Thac0 points actually matter he can just compensate with improved critical or smite.....or tenser's transformation.

[ June 02, 2006, 09:12: Message edited by: Drew ]

F/M, with Aslyferund Elven Chain +5 (can cast spells with it on, and it is immune to normal weapons). Of course you can't get it without cheating at least until ToB. (I'm not sure if it can be gotten without cheating) Yes Klorox, I know, you don't cheat, but I felt it warrented discussion anyways.

Assuming that F/M/T is the perfect tank, what would be your ideal equipment/weapon setup for them?

Would you be constantly changing gear for each battle or is there an 'uber' selection?

The other thing about a F/M/T as a tank would be that the most important and commonly used spells are not levels 8 and 9 (where you'll be missing most of the spells). It's levels 4-6 that are really important for all the spells listed (there are other good ones but they won't be your commonly casted spells).

Actually. REalistically the Fighter/Mage is hindering itself but I can certainly concede that it is definitely in the running. It's got to spend rounds casting it's protective spells. During which it's got to have somebody else protecting it so that it's spells aren't interrupted. The only defenses that are really of an invulnerable type of protection last a very short duration and are dispellable by any good mage. A combination of a mage doing a quick dispelling of your PfMW and a Tank doing something like Greater Whirlwind to strip off things like your stone skin and your fighter mage can be killed pretty easily because the main defenses your claiming are so perfect have just utterly failed the so called tank.

As for the F/M/T the bonus's that would help in a fight from the fighter abilities are severely undercut. Assassination doesn't work on the enemies you really want them to in ToB and they don't work against the Barbarian either.


The Primary Advantages to the tank are severely undercut by the F/M/T. Your Thac0 is going to take a hit because of your considerably lower level in a group. your Armor rating is going to take quite the hit because you can't wear most of the armors in the game unless you want to shut off your mage spells. The thief not only does it not bring much of anything to the table(UAI is of little benefit because it doesn't stop the Armor restriction all spell casting if I'm not mistaken) Assassination is out because several of the biggest enemies you really need it with it doesn't work. On top of that. Your damage multiplier is fairly undercut for a decent part of the game.

Your Max Levels are about half of what single classes can get and this means a lot. your Fighter is not every going to reach it's lowest thac0 because if you can even get it done by the end of the game you can only hit about level 18 or 19.
Your mage side is only going to be able to cast the 9th level spells if your lucky and it won't be able to cast more than like 1. because it's top level is 17. You won't even be able to cast PfMW until you build up 1,125,000XP on your character and that is only enough to cast it once. Not good for your main protection spell when it only lasts 4 rounds. There is also the problem that if you want to use Contingency. Now you must choose. Contingency or PfMW and PfMW can't go in your contingency spell anyway. Your Thief side will get to level 22. But without UAI adding on that important ability to cast with armor and Assassination not working when you would really want you to that primarily leaves you with traps. Hanging back and relying on traps while extremely effective is not really tanking. Truthfully it's only going to contribute one possible thing. That is the ability to see through illusions.

Now i know some of you are going to scream "Spell Imunity:Abjuration!" Go ahead. It actually works against you. Even if I don't manage to dispel your PfMW before you cast it. I simply only have to wear you down for three rounds and then you can't recast PfMW on yourself. In battles where it really counts. Your not going to beat them in just three rounds. We also can't forget that every round your casting another spell to defend or buff yourself. That's another round your not doing damage to the enemy and thus that means more potential damage to your tank. When some of the spells are of very limited duration that gives you a problem on your hands.

Versatility is really a small issue and it really bites you in the butt in some ways to get it. A Bard is much better than a F/M/T. Partly for Higher Casting level. Perhaps a few fewer spells but they can cast any one that a triple class could and they have less working against them. Got to remember that some of the spells your relying on in part care about what your casting level is. Stone Skin and Mirror Image being two of them.

But you know what. None of this addresses the biggest Problem against the F/M/T. It's slow to level even when solo'ing. In a group of 6 it becomes Extremely slow to level. To get that 1.125 Million Experience to get high enough to cast level 6 spells alone. The Rest of your party is all going to be up over 3mil a piece if they are single class characters. This means they are all level 20 or more when your so called tank is still level 11.

The Priest in your party will have a lower Thac0. When your support character is out hitting and recieving blows better than your so called Tank you've got a problem and need to reconsider who your tank is in the party. Give your priest the Crom Faeyr to Enhance that and let him go to town. Your F/M/T can sit in support.

Edit to add something: The armor can't be gotten before ToB without cheating it in in some way. The only one that can make it is Cespenar which means you have to be in ToB. The AC is much needed and a very good thing for any multi-class mage however. But if the tank in your party is your main character then the protection from normal weapons is actually useless and redundant if your good or neutral because of the Good Reward for the Fear Trial which makes you immune to +1 or less weapons.

[ June 02, 2006, 10:17: Message edited by: starwalker ]

But you know what. None of this addresses the biggest Problem against the F/M/T. It's slow to level even when solo'ing. In a group of 6 it becomes Extremely slow to level. To get that 1.125 Million Experience to get high enough to cast level 6 spells alone. The Rest of your party is all going to be up over 3mil a piece if they are single class characters. This means they are all level 20 or more when your so called tank is still level 11.

The Priest in your party will have a lower Thac0. When your support character is out hitting and recieving blows better than your so called Tank you've got a problem and need to reconsider who your tank is in the party. Give your priest the Crom Faeyr to Enhance that and let him go to town. Your F/M/T can sit in support 1.) Mages need to be level 12 to cast level 6 spells, which requires twice as many XP.

2.) At 1,125,000 XP clerics are level 13, which gives them a base thac0 of 12 which is the same as a FMT's with the same experience. And a FMT gets additional thac0 and damage bonus for specialization and twice as many attacks. So a cleric will do far less than half of the damage the FMT does with the same equipment. And when fighter level 13 is reached the difference will even grow.

3.) At 3,000,000 XP a F/M/T is 12/12/14, that's a level 14 character. And not all single class characters have reached level 19 at that point.


A Bard is much better than a F/M/T. Partly for Higher Casting level. Perhaps a few fewer spells but they can cast any one that a triple class could and they have less working against them. Got to remember that some of the spells your relying on in part care about what your casting level is. Stone Skin and Mirror Image being two of them. Bard base thac0 is maxed out at 10 at level 21, that's fighter level 11, so they are even inferior to clerics in dealing out physical damage. A F/M/T can do far more than twice that much. Spell effects are capped at level 20, so the advantage isn't really big. Bard saving throws are also maxed out at level 21 and they are not really impressing then.

The FMT's slow levelling is mainly a cosmetic disadvantage.
I don't think that FMTs is the best class for a tank, but it is better than bard.

[ June 02, 2006, 14:18: Message edited by: kmonster ]

@starwalker
i) If xp gain is such a concern don't have a team of 6 then.
ii) You only need the protection spells from level 2-6, the loss of high level spells isn't too much of a hit unless you're playing style relied on timestops and even then a F/M/T can lay time traps.
iii) We're not fighting *you*, we're fighting monsters who with even the best modder written behaviour, still won't pose half the challenge that another player might.
iv) The toughest monsters being immune to backstab is a good thing, not a weakness in the build. Without it you'd be able to kill anything in one or two rounds, i'd be disappointed if any of the ascension 5 went down that easily.

@Felinoid: You're right, of course, but I did mention not having F/M/T as a tank in BG1. Seriously thinking, she's not the best possible tank then, mainly for the lack of hitpoints and the lack of protective spells. Her slow levelling is mainly problem in BG1 as well. But in the very beginning even the best tank will be beaten bloody by almost any group of monsters, and avoidance is the best tactic.

But in the beginning of SoA, you will have enough protective spells. Levelling won't be that big issue and in ToB she will be so powerful it hurts.

Equipmentwise in BG1, if you necessarily want to tank her I'd be having boots of speed, sword & shield, and quarterstaff, if you don't mind her backstabbing. Platemail is negotiable, but wizard robes might be a better idea. Staff-spear is found soon enough from Kirinhale in DT. Don't forget wands and any extra handy scrolls. Using wands in the fray every once and a while helps huge amounts and especially wands will ensure that she will make more damage than a regular fighter. Think of it as this way: she's a better fighter than a bard, will make more damage than a fighter because of the wands, and if you're packing plate, she's got what makes a fighter a good tank.

equipment in SoA & ToB:
armor: elven chain -> Robe of Vecna -> Jansen Adventure Wear(tm)
weapons: Depends on your team and preferences, but in the end it's dual wielding with DE in the offhand and AoU in the main, and maybe something like the Answerer for backstab/assasination. Of course in SoA you give her Flail of Ages, Celestial Fury and maybe Dak'kon's Zerth Blade or Kundane in the offhand.

Other: Ring of wizardry and Ring of Acuity, for those spells, Boots of speed, Gauntlets of Weapon expertise and later Wondrous Gloves or Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization and Amulet of Power.

If your team is well balanced, there won't be any need to swap weapons and equipment in the go. I'm thinking about having a mostly missile party to back my F/M/T up made out of good melee fighters as well. Maybe Mazzy, Keldorn, Minsc, Valygar and Jaheira. Sarevok will be a nice addition later.

Doesn't it seem a bit of a waste to go F/M/T if thats the setup you're gonna use?

Taking thief as an extra class just to wear Jan's armor, have the occasional backstab and 1 assassination per day.

Yes, but having that 25% damage resistance is worth the thief class. And there's also Greater Evasion giving 6 decrease to AC and Avoid death giving +20 to hp, should that become necessary.

edit: there's also this: Does Hardiness stack? (http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/10/5370.html)

editII: so ok, F/T might be considered to be a good tank as well and UAI makes her a spell caster too, but F/M/T will have the ability to have some spells in chain contingency used via scroll, whereas F/T won't, not to mention about spell triggers and spell sequencers.

[ June 02, 2006, 18:45: Message edited by: Iku-Turso ]

The advantage of the bard is with Tensor's Transformation - making him a higher level fighter than your best fighter is.

A F/M or bard tank does not require PfMW (and I have had both types of characters tank without it).

Spells cast (in order of casting):
Stoneskin (lvl. 4)
Spirit Armor (lvl. 4) (lasts 10 turns)
Blur (lvl. 2) (lasts 4 rounds + 2 rounds/level)
*Mirror Image (lvl. 2) (lasts 3 rounds + 1round/level)
*Fireshield: Blue (lvl. 4) (lasts 3 rounds + 1 round/lvl)
Improved Haste (lvl. 6) (lasts 3 rounds + 1 round/lvl)
Tenser's Transformation (lvl. 6) (lasts 1 round/lvl)

So as a bard "wastes" 5 rounds casting spells... at level 23 (SoA cap), you've got nothing that lasts for less than 23 rounds. You'll be a level 23 fighter THAC0 with a +2 to hit and to damage bonus with double at least 200 hp, a AC (assuming a 18 Dex) of -9 before items, have at least 2 attacks per round (more likely 4 if you are dualweilding with a blade), will not take much damage for the first 12 hits he takes (most enemies do not do elemental damage). And that requires 5 spells. Which is all he needs to memorize.

The weakness and strength in the bard argument is their reliance on tenser's transformation. When your stoneskins have been knocked off (which yes would take longer as you have more than a f/m, f/m/t) you won't be able to recast them.

Plus you *have to* dual wield (normally to belm/kudane/scarlet) to have a similar number of attacks or cause anywhere near the damage of any F/M build.

And the disadvantage of a blade is not having damage resistance. If you want high AC, then the blade is definitely the tank you want to have. But when AC isn't what counts, then it's damage resistance.

And a fighter multi-class will still dish out more damage because of GWW.

With my fighter/mages, I usually put my preferred defensive combo into a spell trigger. I only "waste" one round casting a spell (and not even that, since you can pretty much start attacking right after you cast).

Bards get TT at level 16 while a mage gets level 6 spells at level 11... meaning, while I can't look up the EXP tables, will get get level 6 spells before a F/M will (with PfMW).

The 4 ways to get significant resistances to damage are: Jan's AdventureWear, DoE, Armor of Faith and being a Barbarian. The only way to combine all three would be to make a F/T/C which you can't do.

Thus a F/M/T, SKed to a Barbarian.

Otherwise, a barbarian with DoE is going to have the highest resistances (or a Barbarian/Theif DC with UAI). I agree that this will be the best non-magic tank (I see the two as different categories).

My suggestion about a blade is that it is comparable to a F/M as it can achieve it's relative power fairly easily (level 16 - no HLAs required).

A F/M will not have any resistance advantages over a bard (other than being a barbarian).

As for damage, if we assume relatively equal strengths (19 is possible for both), the damage is lower for a blade because of specialization, and number of attacks. A blade will get a +2 with in Offensive Spin. As for attacks: a dual-weilding blade with Offensive Spin and then Improve Haste with Belm or Scarlet, will have 1 + 1 + 2 * 2 for a total of 8 attacks a round for 24 seconds (about the same amount of time as a GWW). So you don't deal as much damage. And what's wrong with dual-weilding for a tank? I already showed that your AC can be quite good.

The advantage is from the higher casting level allowing your spells to last longer over a F/M. Because of the lower spell level, TT won't last as long and you won't get as many fighter levels (cause the mage level is lower) - though the bonus HP is higher (due to the fighter HD).

Edit: Any spell combo a F/M has (other than Chain Contigency I believe) a Blade can do as well.

Edit: Oops. Forgot Hardiness being the 5th (and major way). This is a good point for a F/M though requires a lot more experience than a blade.

[ June 02, 2006, 21:10: Message edited by: UCLAEnigma ]

@UCLAEngima
A F/M wouldn't use TT at all.

Offensive spin doesn't work in conjucntion with either haste, so the max number of attacks would be 6.

i) If xp gain is such a concern don't have a team of 6 then. Hmm, best tank vs. best soloer. I somehow don't think that's the topic. ;)
Seriously thinking, she's not the best possible tank then, mainly for the lack of hitpoints and the lack of protective spells. Her slow levelling is mainly problem in BG1 as well. But in the very beginning even the best tank will be beaten bloody by almost any group of monsters, and avoidance is the best tactic. The HP is a problem, but the slow levelling is not a problem in BG1 (it's actually a bigger problem in BG2 than it is in BG1, due to the experience tables). The problem, linked with the HP, is just the overall low level of the game. F/M/Ts don't come into their own for a while. The spell selection is also somewhat poorer (no Stoneskin et al.); BG1 just isn't made for the multi-classes. And if your tanks are getting beat up even at first level, you have to reexamine your idea of "tank" in BG1. ;)
Bards get TT at level 16 while a mage gets level 6 spells at level 11... Level 12! FFS, does noone listen? It's the one place in the mage's progression where he doesn't get a new spell level in two levels; it's not that hard to remember.

Anyway, mage level 12 is 0.75M, and bard level 16 is 1.32M. So a multi-classed mage wouldn't get it as soon.

@Pseudo
Oops. My bad (I'm not an expert - I just like having weird debates).

My point on spell-casting was supposed to be more an argument that your protections could last longer than 4 rounds of PfMW (from starwalker's point).

Additionally, having 12 skins with a low AC (such as -14 I had with Haerdalis), most enemies will not hit you anyway. They have a 5% chance at most to hit you. The best THAC0 in an unmodded game is -6 by the Slayer with 4 attacks - meaning he hits on averaged 0.2 times per round; this means it would take about 600 turns to take out all the stoneskins. Yeah, the AC spells would run out well before that - but you could easily recast them if you haven't killed the enemy yet. Basically, my point is that by the time the SS run out, TT would have been long gone.

@Fel
My bad - I read DSimpson's FAQ wrong.

The best THAC0 in an unmodded game is -6 by the Slayer with 4 attacks - meaning he hits on averaged 0.2 times per round; this means it would take about 600 turns to take out all the stoneskins. Wrong. The best THAC0s in the unmodded game belong to the dragons, Melissan, and Demogorgon. At better than -20 for each of them (including STR bonuses, proficiency, and weapon bonuses), they'll hit anything you have, no matter what. Making damage reduction or protective spells a must for anyone to be truly called "tank" and not "fodder". ;)

It's also wrong in that a THAC0 of -6 vs. an AC of -14, would result in a To Hit of 8, meaning he'd hit you about two out of three times. That's 2.6 hits a round, and the Stoneskin goes down in five rounds. (Also, the Slayer's -6 THAC0 does not factor in STR bonuses, proficiency, or weapon bonuses, so it'd be even worse.)

Which is why a weapon like Soul Reaver +4 is pure gold. If enough hits connect with a GWW you can make Demogorgon no more threatening than a kitten.

I still think the best defence is a good offence (thats my mindless-cliche-of-the-day ;) ) i prefer to weaken the enemy to such a point that i don't need a tank.

Reaver/FOA/Level Draining/Vorpal/Answerer

[ June 02, 2006, 21:48: Message edited by: Pseudospawn ]

The advantage of the bard is with Tensor's Transformation - making him a higher level fighter than your best fighter is.

A F/M or bard tank does not require PfMW (and I have had both types of characters tank without it).

Spells cast (in order of casting):
Stoneskin (lvl. 4)
Spirit Armor (lvl. 4) (lasts 10 turns)
Blur (lvl. 2) (lasts 4 rounds + 2 rounds/level)
*Mirror Image (lvl. 2) (lasts 3 rounds + 1round/level)
*Fireshield: Blue (lvl. 4) (lasts 3 rounds + 1 round/lvl)
Improved Haste (lvl. 6) (lasts 3 rounds + 1 round/lvl)
Tenser's Transformation (lvl. 6) (lasts 1 round/lvl)

So as a bard "wastes" 5 rounds casting spells... at level 23 (SoA cap), you've got nothing that lasts for less than 23 rounds. You'll be a level 23 fighter THAC0 with a +2 to hit and to damage bonus with double at least 200 hp, a AC (assuming a 18 Dex) of -9 before items, have at least 2 attacks per round (more likely 4 if you are dualweilding with a blade), will not take much damage for the first 12 hits he takes (most enemies do not do elemental damage). And that requires 5 spells. Which is all he needs to memorize. Finally! An Arguement on the behalf of magic usage which does not involve PfMW's. I've been tired of argueing that spells weaknesses.

You've actually got a very good set up here. REally the only thing that I can point out in counter argument are subjective. The First one being style. The second one being the durability to tank any time and for sudden encounters. Which I will admit are rare as well as we know the games. But you give a good argument to which I can say this makes the f/m a viable tank and one of the best. I won't say the best but I also won't say the Barbarian is the best when confronted with this argument. Both styles are such that they come down to personal style as to which one is better. making the final decision personal.

2.) At 1,125,000 XP clerics are level 13, which gives them a base thac0 of 12 which is the same as a FMT's with the same experience. And a FMT gets additional thac0 and damage bonus for specialization and twice as many attacks. So a cleric will do far less than half of the damage the FMT does with the same equipment. And when fighter level 13 is reached the difference will even grow.

3.) At 3,000,000 XP a F/M/T is 12/12/14, that's a level 14 character. And not all single class characters have reached level 19 at that point.
As for this. I apparantly need to watch when I do math. Actually did my multiplication twice on accident. By the math I did do though It would have come out to 3,375,000xp to be exact. For that number the only single class that would not be at least level 19 would the Druid. And the Druid has that unfortunate 1.5mil hurdle at level 14. The Druid though pretty much out of the tank running does have the advantage that it does manage to nearly catch up in level with any other character.

For all of the Tanking Classes as I was classifying before we finally got a decent argument to the F/M that would have meant that our Tank Candidates would all be at least 5 levels higher than the F/M/T. Of what we have slowly widdled down to what a tank means. Which would give us clearly The Barbarian having 7 levels above the F/M/T. Those levels do matter quite a bit in the viability of a tank just at that level.

For this ammount of Experience The Priest would be level 23 and would be a more viable tank than a level 12/12/14 F/M/T And no it's not just a level 14 character. It's a level 12/12/14. When your considering some of it's best advantages comes from the fighter class you'd consider it a level 12. The Priest of level 23 has a lower Thac0 than a level 12 Fighter. A high strength bonus would only increase this. Might as well just cast a Draw Upon Holy might at that level. Get an AC increase. Regeneration from High Con. And you only have to cast one spell.

So not only is it being outdone by a support character. But it's also a class that in a group cannot realize real potential compared to the other characters in your party until the end of the game if it does at all. A level 35 bard or Barbarian is going to be a lot more affective and useful than a level 18/17/22 or whatever it comes out to be for 2.66 mil or there abouts that the F/M/T maxes out at with an 8mil total xp cap in the game.

It is an outright Fantastic Solo Character. It sucks as a Tank. The Very things that make it Versatile bite it in the ass in a group.


And one Final Note. I think that Anything that we are even going to try to classify as the Best of Anything should at least in part stand up to us and not just the Dismal AI in the game. A good programer could probably actually make the enemies quite a bit smarter. A Mediocre programmer that desired to could probably make AI to defeat singular things like PfMW. Though that would probably ruin some of the joy of the game.

But we know that most anything could do any role if we only consider the enemy AI. The proof is all over these forums. That doesn't necessarily make them the best or even one of the best at it.

theTruth seems to make a point of proving just what could be done with singular character's. Having a harder time by his own admission with Some Tanks solo'ing than he did with some of the support classes. Yet we take those same Characters and put them in a group and they come out almost un-matched in capability.

PFMW's short duration is not a weakness. Four rounds is a very long time when you attack 7 times a round in conjunction with a feat like smite or critical strike. In four rounds, a high level fighter/mage will be able to knock out all the credible melee opponents in most cases. In those few instances when he can't, his stoneskin will likely carry him through the rest of the way or he can just re-cast PFMW. He will probably have another PFMW in a contingency as well in case all his defenses get dropped and he starts taking damage. I base my strategy on PFMW, Improved Haste, Stoneskin, and Fireshield because it works. My Fighter/mage takes no damage from enemies, but they get hurt every time they try to attack him. My fighter/mage will also dish out a lot more damage than a straight fighter could possibly dish out without help.

So not only is it being outdone by a support character. But it's also a class that in a group cannot realize real potential compared to the other characters in your party until the end of the game if it does at all. A level 35 bard or Barbarian is going to be a lot more affective and useful than a level 18/17/22 or whatever it comes out to be for 2.66 mil or there abouts that the F/M/T maxes out at with an 8mil total xp cap in the game.
Lower hit points doesn't make you a weaker tank when no one can hurt you in the first place. I readilly concede that a fighter/mage makes a better tank than a F/M/T. A bard cannot deal anywhere near as much damage, however, since he will have a lower Thac0 and less attacks for the entire game. The bard also doesn't have many more hitpoints since the F/M/T gets a bonus for a constitution over 16. If your F/M/T has a 19 con, that's an extra 28 (because of the 10th thief level) hit points that the bard can't get. By the end of ToB, a bard might have 10 more hit points than a F/M/T. I'm not even going to try to compare a Barbarian to a F/M/T. The barbarian, while effective, simply cannot take the ammount of punishment a F/M/T can take.

[ June 03, 2006, 08:50: Message edited by: Drew ]

Oh it can only half all of the physical damage that it takes with minimal equipment even if it's standing there naked and yet it can't compare to the F/M/T. I'm sorry but no.

7 attacks a round is not that impressive when you cannot hit for half of them. By the time you equip a Barbarian with a number of purely optional items because of the open slots the setup has as a tank. It's going at least as many attacks as a F/M/T. Deal more damage and have a serious armor rating. On top of that. With So many Opened slots and the ability if your going to push the numbers from a Power Gaming Aspect it's going to have a strength high enough to compare to any strength belt in the game. You can actually give it more than 50% magic resistance as well as a fair ammount of elemental resistances and still have a formidable AC. So that means not only is it halving physical damage but it's reducing the ammount of magical damage that the barbarian takes.

The Bard has a high casting level and can do anything that your bragging about with your spells. If it is so damned perfect for your F/M/T then the bard can pull it off no problem.

There is also the Fact that unless the game engine screwed up. The F/M/T should only get an advantage for greater than 16 Con For it's fighter Levels. The Mage and Thief Levels should still be stuck with only the additional +2HP.

Then we've got to consider if you want to be able to use your thief skills on your already weakened character and actually be able to use the best armor they might be able to. Problem is that it's chainmail which means to keep your Mage Spells and your Thief skills as well as build up a healthy AC to defend against those surprise attacks that you are required to have UAI. Taking UAI for the benefit of a single item is very extreme if you ask me.

I've honestly survived the length of PfMW for it to wear off and I could quickly strip down things like stone skin. Your talking to a player that sometimes does it out of boredom. in a Group the F/M/T is going to have to go a long time before it can cast the spell twice if that recasting is needed. Yes there are things that can screw up spell casting through stone skin. It seems we had another thread a month or two ago where we found out a fair number of extra affects to weapons can actually go through stone skin. Your stone skin is also weakened by your lower level. Your not getting the same ammount of protection out of it. You have less skins protecting you and you will never get up to the full 10 skins. So even at it's highest level 1 attack from a whirlwind will get through and damage your F/M/T.

Critical strike = natural 20. An improved hasted f/m or f/m/t will always hit if using Critical Strike or Smite. The F/M/T gets his HLA's the same time as a barbarian does. The barbarian will likely be (rightfully) spending his slots on GWW, but a F/M or F/M/T will more likely be using them for critical strike, Smite, and Assasinate. I'd take 10 garaunteed hit backstabs (critical strike/Smite + dual wielding + improved haste + gauntlets of extraordinary specialization + belm/kundane/scarlet ninjato + mislead) possibly doing double damage over 10 potential hits any day. Even without the mislead cheese 10 garaunteed hits > 10 attacks in a round.

Stoneskin = 100% damage reduction. The barbarian cannot get this. I'm not particularly bothered by the fact that the F/M/T is missing a skin or two. PFMW = total invulnerability to physical attack. Not only will the F/M or F/M/T have multiple castings of it, but he will also likely have it in a contingency. I keep it in two different contingencies (regular and chain) with a F/M and have it kick in at different levels of injury. Later on, when I have enough scrolls, I do it for the F/M/T as well or I just use a limited wish. I don't think I've ever actually had to use my chain contingencies because my F/M's and F/M/T's never get hurt.

The bard does not hit as well or attack as often as a F/M/T and he does not get the Critical Strike or Smite HLA's. He cannot do the damage a F/M or F/M/T can do. Remember....PFMW does not care about caster level. With immunity to abjuration, it cannot be dispelled, either.

There is also the Fact that unless the game engine screwed up. The F/M/T should only get an advantage for greater than 16 Con For it's fighter Levels. The Mage and Thief Levels should still be stuck with only the additional +2HP.Not according to my 2e players handbook.....

Incedentally, by the time your enemies have HLA's like whirlwind the F/M/T will already have more than one casting of PFMW, some scrolls of the same, and probably a ring of wizardry, too. He'll be doing just fine. Scrolls and contingencies, incedentally, cannot be disrupted so there is no need for a F/M/T or F/M to be caught with his pants down. By the way, I've always found the Aslyferund chain to be more than good enough for providing a nice AC (even though AC doesn't really matter in ToB. ToB enemies will hit you regardless of how good it is).

[ June 03, 2006, 11:07: Message edited by: Drew ]

Critical strike has a weakness. The number of enemies in the game wearing helmets.

And I'm sorry. only about half my warriors invest heavily in GWW. I am far more prone to having a mage haste my tank. I like to use Critical Strike and Smite.

There is also the fact that as I recall you can only get 1 smite.


As for the hitpoints. I actually dug out my players guide. There would be no extra hitpoints gained for a F/M/T. in the PnP game You would get a single bonus. The +5. Then it would be split in three and you'd get a fraction of that bonus on the leveling up of each class. This means that you would get no more hitpoints than you would for just playing a pure fighter character. Or if you were a real stickler for math you would get 2.5 extra hitpoints in total more in bonuses than you would for a normal fighter. Considering your hitpoints are always a third of what you roll. It really doesn't make an advantageous boost in hitpoints.

but it does mean that we were both wrong and still leaves the possibility that the game engine isn't doing things right.

And by the way. in ToB. It is possible to get an AC of a decent enough level to offer real and advantageous protection against a fair ammount of the enemies in the game and mitigate a bit of the damage from the big guys by giving at least a small chance they will miss.

In my last game I managed to have 2 AC's at -13. I could have probably had another something simular but I was using Sarevok and had him swinging around 2-handed weapons. My monk was at a -12AC. most all of it from her natural armor. What this means is that I had 3 characters that could riably feel that about 20-25% of the hits would actually miss them from something with a -20Thaco. There are only a few things with that kind of Thac0.

And let's not forget the fact that your F/M/T will likely never get chain contingency unless your going to use the very limited scrolls. So listing Chain contingency as a valid defense for them doesn't work.

@starwalker
ah, be we're not talking about a fair amount of enemies in the game. Against the large amount of monsters & evil people you don't need to burn your HLA's and protective spells, or even think about tactics for that matter. storm in, pummel away in melee and down a few cheap heal potions afterwards.

...and has already been stressed many times in this thread, critical strike isn't about causing critical damage. Its ensuring hits against the toughest enemies with annoyingly high ac/hp/resists/thac0, that will tear you apart before you sucessfully land a hit.

...and has already been stressed many times in this thread, critical strike isn't about causing critical damage. Its ensuring hits against the toughest enemies with annoyingly high ac/hp/resists/thac0, that will tear you apart before you sucessfully land a hit.Exactly. I don't take critical strike for critical damage. I take it so that attacks never miss.

As for the hitpoints. I actually dug out my players guide. There would be no extra hitpoints gained for a F/M/T. in the PnP game You would get a single bonus. The +5. Then it would be split in three and you'd get a fraction of that bonus on the leveling up of each class. This means that you would get no more hitpoints than you would for just playing a pure fighter character. Or if you were a real stickler for math you would get 2.5 extra hitpoints in total more in bonuses than you would for a normal fighter.Which is exactly what I was saying. Since I was comparing the F/M/T to a bard in the example above the difference is quite large. The bonus HP of a F/M/T will come out at 46-47 HP with a 19 constitution. Remember that 5 gets added at each level up before it gets divided by three. I'm fairly certain that 5*3/3=5. In other words, the F/M/T will get 15 from his fighter levels, fifteen from his cleric levels, and 16 or 17 from his thief levelsa. The bard gets a maximum bonus of 20......even if his constitution is 25.

The F/M/T lags in HP behind a warrior or even behind a warrior/mage. No one is contesting this. The point I'm making is that he will have more spells than a bard by the end of the game, will always have a better attack and Thac0 than a bard, and will likely have more hitpoints than a bard until the bard reaches about level 30 assuming a high constitution. At the end of the game, the HP difference will be about 10, but the F/M/T will have level 8 spells, more attacks, Fighter HLA's, and a better Thac0 when compared to a bard. A straight F/M is still a better tank than a F/M/T in my opinion......but a F/M/T will tank better than bard or a single classed warrior.

Chain contingency is a very viable defense for a F/M/T. Between superflous scrolls that your wizards don't use and the limited wish chain contingency, the F/M/T will be able to cast it at least 3 times. Unless you really suck, 3 chain contingencies is all you will ever need (I only used one and it didn't get activated until the ascension battle in my last game) to use if you are setting it to activate at 25% hitpoints like I do.

[ June 03, 2006, 23:50: Message edited by: Drew ]

The bonus HP of a F/M/T will come out at 46-47 HP. To clarify, the engine does keep the fractions. So it'd be 48.333 HP. Now, let's look at a couple places to compare.

2M XP:
Bard level 19, HP 10d6 + 18 + 20 = 48-98
F/M/T level 10/11/13, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 3 + 1 + 6 + 45 + 50 + 50) / 3 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 155) / 3 = (184-345) / 3 = 61.3-115
Assuming max HP, that's 17 difference in favor of the F/M/T.

4M XP:
Bard level 28, HP 10d6 + 36 + 20 = 66-116
F/M/T level 13/13/16, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 12 + 3 + 12 + 45 + 50 + 50) / 3 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 182) / 3 = (201-362) / 3 = 67-120.6
Evening out a bit...

6M XP:
Bard level 37, HP 10d6 + 54 + 20 = 84-134
F/M/T level 16/15/19, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 21 + 5 + 18 + 45 + 50 + 50) / 3 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 189) / 3 = (218-379) / 3 = 72.6-116.3
And the bard has decidedly won, even with a 19 CON for the F/M/T.

The reason for this? A bard gets 2HP past level 10 for a single rogue level (220K), while an F/M/T gets 2HP past level ten for a fighter level + a wizard level + a rogue level. Of course, I for one do not consider such minimal differences important when the point in ToB is not to get hit at all, lest you become a splatter upon the floor. ;)

And, what the heck, let's do some math for the F/M while we're at it.

2M XP:
F/M level 12/12, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 6 + 6 + 45 + 50) / 2 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 107) / 2 = (126-237) / 2 = 63-118.5
Better than the F/M/T at that level, but surprisingly by not that much.

4M XP:
F/M level 16/15, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 21 + 5 + 45 + 50) / 2 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 121) / 2 = (140-251) / 2 = 70-125.5
Better than both, still by a minor margin.

6M XP:
F/M level 20/18, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 33 + 8+ 45 + 50) / 2 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 136) / 2 = (155-266) / 2 = 77.5-133
Just barely beaten by the bard, even with 19 CON for our beloved F/M. And we see the slower levelling interfering again, as the F/M must get a fighter level + a wizard level to get 2HP.

EDIT: Comparing spells...

2M XP:
Ba rd - 4/4/4/4/3/2/0/0/0
F/M/T- 4/4/4/3/3/0/0/0/0
F / M - 4/4/4/4/4/1/0/0/0

4M XP:
Ba rd - 6/5/5/5/5/5/5/0/0
F/M/T- 5/5/5/4/4/2/0/0/0
F / M - 5/5/5/5/5/2/1/0/0

6M XP:
Ba rd - 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/3/0
F/M/T- 5/5/5/5/5/2/1/0/0
F / M - 5/5/5/5/5/3/3/2/1

Bards don't get level 7 or 8 spells in BG2, Fel. You also left out the fact that the F/M/T keeps progressing all the way up to 8,000,000 xp when the bard will not. A lot of the HP gap between a bard and a F/M or F/M/T will be negated by this. By the end of the game, a F/M/T would have quite a few more spells than a bard as well. Unfortunately, BG2 was built to favor multi-classes.

Bards don't get level 7 or 8 spells in BG2, Fel. They do in 2e. :p And most people would have the mod that fixes it. But here are the "corrections" for unmodded, if you like.

4M XP: 5/5/5/5/5/3/0/0/0
6M XP: 5/5/5/5/5/4/0/0/0
You also left out the fact that the F/M/T keeps progressing all the way up to 8,000,000 xp when the bard will not. Again, lvl50 mod. Here's the stuff for 8M XP, since you asked.

Bard level 40 (unmodded), HP 10d6 + 60 + 20 = 90-140
Bard level 46 (lvl50 mod), HP 10d6 + 72 + 20 = 102-152
F/M/T level 18/17/22, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 27 + 7 + 24 + 45 + 50 + 50) / 3 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 203) / 3 = (232-393) / 3 = 77.3-131
F/M level 24/20, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 45 + 10 + 45 + 50) / 2 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 150) / 2 = (169-280) / 2 = 84.5-140
Well would you look at that; even the unmodded level 40 bard wins (tied with the F/M on max, above on min & average).

Spells @ 8M XP:
BardU- 5/5/5/5/5/5/0/0/0
BardM- 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/0
F/M/T- 5/5/5/5/5/3/3/2/0
F / M - 5/5/5/5/5/4/3/3/2

The un-nerfed bard beats the F/M/T without a doubt, and is somewhat tied (hard to compare) with the F/M. Though I think a gnomish F/I would win in the spell battle easily.

A lot less people play with the rules fixes than you think, judging from other forums. I also never actually stated that A F/M/T would have more hitpoints at the end of ToB. I said he wouldn't have much less.

For this ammount of Experience The Priest would be level 23 and would be a more viable tank than a level 12/12/14 F/M/T And no it's not just a level 14 character. It's a level 12/12/14. When your considering some of it's best advantages comes from the fighter class you'd consider it a level 12. The Priest of level 23 has a lower Thac0 than a level 12 Fighter. A high strength bonus would only increase this. Might as well just cast a Draw Upon Holy might at that level. Get an AC increase. Regeneration from High Con. And you only have to cast one spell.

So not only is it being outdone by a support character ... Thac0 is not everything. Just because a charcter has higher thac0 doesn't mean he does more damage. The number of attacks per round is more important.
A fighter with 2 attacks/round and 75 percent chance for success still hits more often than a cleric who attacks once per round with about 80 percent chance for success.
Even at this point the FMT's attack power is far superior.
DUHM can't even this out. 25 str doesn't give much more than 19 str + specialisation. +2 AC for 25 instead of 18 dex and +1 HP/round for 25 con aren't impressing.
And the FMT can also cast spells ...

Your cleric's fighting power doesn't improve anymore after level 22, just a few XP later (at 3,750,000 XP) the FMT reaches fighter level 13 which gives even more attacks, allowing him to do more twice as much damage as the cleric.

Wow. So my bard argument (as terrible as it was) actually has some weight.

@starwalker
Finally! An Arguement on the behalf of magic usage which does not involve PfMW's. I've been tired of argueing that spells weaknesses.

You've actually got a very good set up here. REally the only thing that I can point out in counter argument are subjective. The First one being style. The second one being the durability to tank any time and for sudden encounters. The sudden encounters argumnent is a good one - and the most valid point made. I agree that a Barbarian is better in those cases - however does that matter? Is the "best" tank the one that is the best at the end of the game or the beginning... the best against dragons or the best against the slayer with no items? I mean, the best tank without any items or spells is the monk. And while the "sudden" encounters discussion is obviously more likely in BGII than no items or spells, with how many times each of us has played this game, only few encounters can truly be considered sudden and unexpected (or at least any that would require any actual tank).

As for the F/M vs. F/M/T vs. bard argument, I think much of it is irrelevant. Each is going to work in a very similar manner: buff and charge. The F/M(/T) is going to have more attacks and be able to do more damage... nothing I can say about that.

@Drew
If you prevent the PfMW from being dispelled with SI:Abj., how are you going to recast it?

Additionally, one of the things I like about using mainly buffing spells (like the ones I listed), are that they also help with saving throws which PfMW doesn't. This is important to me because much of the time, a tank will be the one toe-to-toe with something that can cast spells (dragons and beholders come to my mind first). PfMW won't help much. I don't mean to suggest that you wouldn't cast other more helpful spells in those situations; however, the useful thing about spell-casters as tanks is that they are very versatile against their enemy-type. A Barbarian can rage and avoid many effects as well... but still will take magic damage.

I'm of the opinion that it should be overall through the game. That's why some of my arguments have had at least some statement towards the lateness that things like the F/M/T get certain things. That does mean a lot in my opinion to what works.

Kmonster the attacks do mean something but it's a sum of the parts. Think about the point at which the F/M/T finally gets that extra attack. It is so far behind other things that it's almost frightening. The Priest can easily get two attacks if you forgo a shield. One thing I didn't bring up but is a valid point is the fact that All three Priest kits add something to the Priest in the way of tankability.


Priests of Lothander get a spell that can get quite the duration. and boosts their to hit, damage, and saving throws as well as giving an extra attack a round. With two weapons that means a priest of Lothander can now make 3 attacks around. This equals any fighter with a two handed weapon when you don't count Greater Whirlwind. it is also a good defense against level draining powers and by the end of the game can be cast multiple times. Each one with an incredibly long duration. I'm leaving out the potential of the hold undead spell it gets for free as well.

The Priest of Helm is less well rounded in it's signature power. It get seeking sword. Effectively a +4 enchantment for figuring out what it can hit. Gets 3 hits a round and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some bug or forgotten piece in the game engine that actually allows you to still get yet one more attack from an offhand weapon making 4 a round. It lasts quite a number of rounds at high level. This one has a serious drawback the other priests don't have though. You can't cast spells for it's lengthy duration. The other extra spell is very much a support spell but nice to have. True Sight.

The Priest of Talos has a signature power that is super defense. Again it will end up with a rediculously long duration at high level. And I believe it's protection is 100% but I have to double check. but it does lightning, fire, cold, and normal missiles. So you've now protected yourself from some of the most abundant and annoying damage in the game both in the form of spells and in the form of protections, and even enchantments on weapons that cause these types of damage. As an added kicker. they can cast lightning bolt. Talk about convenient and offensive.

Yet None of these three compare to what a good Tank can do with a group backing them up even when you include a spell like Draw Upon Holy Might which is actually a triple bonus to all of the important stats to a tank and yet they can outdo say the F/M/T then you quickly get a picture that the perfect solo char just doesn't cut it tanking for the group.

Yes More Potential hits can be good but it needs to be balanced with other things. The Weapons Factor is almost as much of a detriment as it is a boon. Assassination is only good with certain kinds of weapons and not even all of those kinds of weapons. This actually makes any weapon you could get proficiencies in that doesn't fit those criteria useless if your relying on assassination. on Top of this your relying on a number of abilities. Quite a bit of micromanagement and forethought for equipment and ability to use that equipment propperly. As people keep pointing out. the un-modded proficiency table just isn't that great. It's advantage is smaller. But to use a mod to fix it you actually improve quite a number of the normal enemies and increase the ammount of damage your party takes. So in essence you almost backfire against your tanks to use the mod.

You keep pointing out that your idea of how the F/M/T is unstoppable with some things. But when you rely on spells that are level 6 and above. When you finally get these things and how many times you can cast them for a majority of the game really means something.

@UCLA
I aggree with you that the problem of taking magic damage is something that does work against the Barbarian. Luckily with so little equipment needed and so many of the Barbarians advantages innate. There are a lot of equipment slots to help mitigate the problem of the magic damage. That is something I favor because I can tailor the extra equipment to that problem as I desire. Rings of elemental Resistance. Various items that give magic resistance. Certain armour's that give some resistances.

Cloak of Mirrors or Cloak of Reflection. Ring of Fire Protection or Fire Control, Belt of Inertial Barrier, Boots of the North, Ring of Gaxx. Several Amulet's that give different protections. They are all very easy to throw on the Barbarian in the combinations you wish without worrying about messing up the delicate equipment and ability balance of the character doing it's job. With these kinds of items you can actually give yourself some kind of resistance or reduction in damage from most of the kinds of damage in the game. You can even toss some of the very good shields on the character too if you desire to go with less than 2 weapons or forgo a two handed weapon.

What it needs behind it is a couple support characters to break down enemy protections. Heal it if a lot of damage manages to get done and somebody to do the thieving. As a tank it's excellent. I think the thing that truely counts against it is that it's rather devoid of any spell casting.

@starwalker

My point was that a FMT will do more physical damage than cleric.

If you use both characters perfectly the FMT will still deal out far more physical damage during all parts of the game.

The time your character has between 1,800,000 XP and 3,750,000 XP is much shorter than the time between 89,000 and 1,800,000 XP.
Before the cleric has reached 1,800,000 XP (level 16) his base thac0 isn't better than 12 and the FMT is far superior.

At 3,750,000 the FMT reaches a big growth in power and his offensive power will still improve afterwards.

But even between the medium period the FMT does more damage.
If you dualwield with your cleric, you get a -2/-6 thac0 penalty.
If you dualwield with your FMT the penalty is only 0/-4, you can take belm or kundane as your off-hand weapon which will give 3.5 attacks/round with your main hand and 1 with your off hand, that's 9 attacks/round with improved haste.

I consider priests as better tanks than FMTs or bards, but because of other reasons.

It's more fun just sending a priest or berserker with weapon,plate, shield and other equipment into battle than micromanaging a FMT for his tanking.

A FMT or bard is unstoppable because of his powerful mage spells, but if you take this consideration further, then you can ask yourself the question:
Why not just take a sorcerer, cast invisibility on the rest of your party and and use those evil spell combinations which make him invulnerable ?

The best tank is the tank who is most fun, and having to cast many spells before or during battles isn't.

A halfling berserker is probably the best tank. With proper equipment 98 percent of the enemies will need a critical to hit, the good saving throws and many HP make it tough to take him down.
For the short time before you get the strength girdle you can use the spell.

A paladin wielding Carsomyr isn't bad either.

Unless You've got a mod installed your into ToB by the time you make over 3mil xp. That's something you really need to consider.

The penalty for Dual Wielding only applies if you propperly assign your Proficiencies. Which are going to be a lot farther between even with one of your classes being fighter.

at 89K experience. The Priest and the fighter will have the same base Thac0. Now if you know the game well you can give the fighter a little advantage because you can put profiencies in weapons that you can get early on for a bit of a boost. Also the fighter is likely to have more strength. The levels are close together and so things are going to be slightly in favor of the F/M/T The only point that the Fighter class truely helps make it better overall is at the very beginning and the very end. Where it's few bonuses can add up to more. Fighters just plain don't have enough more attacks if the Priest is going about things right. And the Priest will have better casting ability though not as many damaging spells not to mention it will be better equipped.

At 161K xp. They've all only gone up one level. So the priest is not that far behind and can already cast DuHM to compensate for the tiny gap.

I personally love Priests but just don't seem to play enough of them. They have defensive written all over them and do some great things to the undead but they don't really fit as a tank.

In 2nd Edition Halfing's don't get bonuses for their small size unless you use certain optional rules laid out in supplement books. And when they do Dwarves get them too because Dwarves are not really any bigger.

I think Ultimately from all the talking we've done if I had to choose 2 to say they were truely the best. Considering peformance through the whole game. I'm thinking the Barbarian, the F/M, With these two they cover any holes that the other one has. The F/M can do anything the F/M/T can do really but a whole lot better as well as take advantage of the full power of both their classes without being too much farther behind any of the single classes.

I'm thinking the Barbarian, the F/M, With these two they cover any holes that the other one has. Or, better yet, a Barbarian/Mage! :evil:

Heh. we can't have those.

Otherwise I think that would have won the argument ages ago.

though Igot to say. I would want a Barbarian/Wild Mage. Though a Barbarian/Shapeshifter could be frightening as well. Damage wouldn't be the best but they'd have uber major resistances to just about everything.

If you're willing to put Barb into a multiclass then wouldn't fighter/thief be the obvious choice since equipment & hla's would yield 100% resistance and mage's damage avoiding spells be superfluous.

I suppose a Barb/Mage/Thief would also be a nice choice as the mage spells would provide damage avoidance till you reach 100% resist at 5.25m.
15% Barb Innate
25% Adventurewear
20% DoE
40% Hardiness

@Drew
If you prevent the PfMW from being dispelled with SI:Abj., how are you going to recast it?The engine doesn't block it. I believe it has something to do with it's short duration and instantaneous casting. SI:Div, for example, blocks True Sight, but not oracle.

On an interesting side note, you can cast PFMW even if you've used an anti-magic scroll.......if you cast it with a scroll, at least. I found this out fighting Kuroisan. I assume it only works if you are casting it from a scroll, but I've never actually checked (too cheesy).

Sounds like a bug in the spell for whatever reason.

The thing with F/M/T is that it will have the same abilities in what makes a good tank as every single other good tank. So she won't have the hitpoints that even a bard has, but she can have high damage resistance. So she won't have the damage resistance a barb has, but she has protective spells. You can equip her to have those elemental resistancies. This means less spells, but she'll have enough of them to really count. And there's spell protections, which mean 100% protection from magical damage.

Armor class isn't a problem. You can use spell triggers with armor, right? Pack up some spells in a trigger, pack up some armor, and off you go.

So she won't have the same amount of spells as a F/M or even a bard, but soon enough you can equip her with carsomyr, which means 20% less damage resistance, but 50% more magic resistance. With Jansen AdventureWear(tm) she'll still have 65% damage resistance (if I did the math correctly) when combined with Hardiness. More than a F/M and definitely more than a bard. This isn't as great as a barb might have, but she will be able to cast some spells, which will make a huge difference.

It's the right kind of equipment what makes a great tank. Not only on the defence, but on the offence side as well. And no other character can have anything you want your tank to have AND still make a huge amount of damage AND still have protective spells in a trigger, or in a contingency, when needed in a really tough fight.

A bonus side in this is that when you'll be having a great tank, her thieving skills will open up a spot for someone who hasn't got a least bit of thief in them. Right from the very beginning and all the time.

Spell Trigger is a level 8 spell. Relying on that as part of your setup and defense won't work in a party. You won't have it until very late in the game. We've already gone through the idea of relying on high level spells and debunked it.

Contingency is level 6. Again it's a good way through the game to be relying on.

the right kind of equipment doesn't matter if you don't start with a good base character.

The F/M/T is not a good base character. It starts out relatively comparable to your support characters but it loses ground to everything else with the slowness that it levels and spends most of the game behind the rest.

You can't backstab with Carsomyr and tank wise Assassination is all that a thief could bring to a table which is still fallable. Using a weapon that removes that then you might as well not have the Thief part of the equation.

Jan's adventure wear gives a bit of damage reduction yes. But it gives absolutely no AC. so it takes up a valuable slot. This means things like No Robe of Vecna for faster spell casting. No +5 Chain which is the best armour in the game for multi-class mages. Also if I'm not mistaken. The F/M can pull off comparable numbers because they can wield the Defender of East Haven as well as hardiness would give the F/M 60%.

F/M's have both better fighting and better spell casting ability.

And this so called Bonus of opening up another spot in your party is hogwash. Your Actually forcing yourself to double up positions including the thief position just to make up for your tanks Crappiness in it until most of the way thorugh the game. Unless you focus on one or two thief skills your abilities at it are going to be crappier than Nalia's. which is saying something for the level of crap that is. To make up for all those other spots until you can get your thief skills built up to be beneficial to the party your going to have to have a second thief filling in all the thief abilities your main character can't do. By the time you make up for the thief so you only need one you might be far enough along to switch out the second thief for Sarevok. But your equipment isn't going to be right to go on Sarevok when you switch the thief out of your party.

Your wonderful Solo Character falls apart in a group. Your talking much more in Solo'ing terms than tanking terms. The Tank doesn't need to do everything. Shouldn't even want to do everything and being capable of doing just about everything hurts it severely as we keep pointing out. Relying on high level spells as part of your strategy doesn't work.

Your Actually forcing yourself to double up positions including the thief position just to make up for your tanks Crappiness in it until most of the way thorugh the game. Unless you focus on one or two thief skills your abilities at it are going to be crappier than Nalia's.That's funny, since I had no problem with this when I started SoA. I had my F/M/T's lockpicking and detect traps in 80% when I started the game and stealth abilities over 60%, which worked fine. Absolutely no need for another thief. Her dex is 20, since I continued from bg1. Didn't allocate to pickpocketing, detect illusions, or traps. These aren't that necessary, so why allocate in them? The stealth has been good enough for my needs.

Currently I'm in chapter 2, Insane difficulty, full party, Slaver's guild done, Planar Sphere done, Unseeing Eye done and Umar Hills done (shadow dragon killed). No other thieves. F/M/T Levels are something like 9/9/11 if I remember correctly and Minsc, who's been with me from the beginning is on level 13 tops. And yes my F/M/T has been tanking, all the time, although as the other members are proficient melee fighters they don't need to cower and flee every time an enemy comes too close. They're all using mainly missile weapons and don't engage in hand-to-hand if it's not absolutely necessary.

The point about Carsomyr is that it's one heck of a weapon, only usable by paladins and thief multiclasses to it's full effect. Having Jan wield it is pretty much pointless. Having a F/M/T wield it is something, since spells can provide much of the protection you need in melee.

I don't rely on high level spells with my strategy. I rely on the fact that my other members are great archers and that even in the beginning of SoA a F/M/T lasts longer in a battle than the NPC's, because of the spells while doing more or at least as much damage than the NPC's. With a barb, you need a mage and a thief in your party. And they don't do as much damage as two fighter-types with bows, and eventually the mage will need some rest, while F/M/T can pack up a plate when her spells run out during the course of adventure. A tank doesn't need to do all of the battle by herself, but when the spells run out by your supporting mage, the barb will have to fight harder to make up for that, while the archers just have to make sure that they have enough arrows, bolts and bullets.

edit: I guess bringing this out is a bit off topic, but I think that to answer 'what's the best tank depends on what kind of party your having as well'.

[ June 06, 2006, 12:57: Message edited by: Iku-Turso ]