What are peoples thougthts on the best hand to hand character, only allowing for self buffs, and assuming they had the max exp points available.

My guess is a Kensai/Thief with UAI...dualled at lvl 20.

What do others think?

A cleric/fighter. A lot of the 'buff' spells improve as you level up.

Ranger/Cleric: They get weapon specialisation, two stars in two weapon style for free, and access to all cleric and druid spells.

To make matters more clear, picture the following:

A Ranger/Cleric wearing Red Dragon Armor, buffed with Righteous Magic, Globe of Blades, Draw Upon Holy Might, Iron Skins, Resist Magic, Chaotic Commands, Aura of Flaming Death...weilding Flail of the Ages +5 in one hand, Crom Faeyr +4 in the other.

If he sees any spell casters, he just casts another Resist Magic, or True Seeing, and beats on them. Or he can whip out a "Insect Plague" or "Creeping Doom". Any divine casters, fighters, thieves, etc, he just can cast Summon Fire or Earth Elemental, or Summon Deva, or Iron Skins + Globe of Blades...let the fighter's beat on him, and then let them try to beat on him, while he just heals himself for whatever paltry damage they can do to him.

AND the R/C can wear almost every item that fighters can.

End. Of. Story. :cool:

I agree with Faraaz.

In order to be an "ultimate" tank, you need to be able to absorb punishment as well as you can dish it out. A Kensai/Thief will have some problem in the first instance due to the restriction to leather armour.

Anyone with stoneskin or iron skins gets the edge for me, and given that a R/C has no armour restrictions, he is well-protected. The fact that some of his HP's come from the cleric side is no big deal, since a cleric has the second-best hit die of all classes.

Faraaz has covered the offensive side quite well.

Basically, with all the buffs available to a R/C, and great offensive capability, the R/C really is the Ultimate Tank.

I'm shocked and dismayed that Faraaz left out Armor of Faith, and that Splunge failed to correct him! :) Even Viconia can take a beating with that spell active. Three cheers for damage reduction!

Forgot to say my Kensai Thief was ignoring his Thief abilities so he can wear any armour and of course GWW with Carosmyr...putting a dent in Iron Skins + Buffs... The THACO and damage of a Kensai using his special abilities... added to the ac of a normal fighter using a holy avenger is still an interesting combo.

I'm with the R/C crowd here. I solo'ed that character for the Iron-Man thread and it was pathetically easy to do. The full gamut of cleric and druid spells on top of two classes worth of HLA's (OK, OK, the cleric's are pretty pathetic after a couple, but then, your thief HLA's aren't so swell after UAI and assassination anyway and your kensai/thief doesn't get any more fighter HLA's after the switch) just kicked arse.

Plus, dual wielding flail of ages with Crom (or the Runehammer for undead), or using upgraded staff of the ram, was just insane.

I was hoping people would not drag offensive spells into this! Summons, Insect Plague make a v powerful and versitile character but are not what this thread was supposed to be about. It is not about which is the most powerful class, just which one would be best at standing toe-to-toe using a melee weapon.

The rules I was assuming (and didn't spell out) were
. self buffs before combat
. no summons
. no offensive spells
. no traps
. no other cheese (mindflayer sorcerors need not apply)
. any TOB available equipment

I bow to the fact that R/C is undoubtedly a contender. More so because it is aided by having two of the most powerful weapons in the game available to dual wield... as opposed to F/D who are badly short changed by the game. (Imagine if Crom was a scimitar or if it was dagger of ages not a flail!)

No one has mentioned F/MU yet or F/M/T. Both give a different slant on buffs... and they can use any weapons. (With it being pre buff only they can even done full armous if desired).

F/MU/Th by the end has some interesting fighting capabilities as a buff-before-combat class. Especially misled, prot magical weapons, stoneskin,

How about a dual-classed assassin/fighter, dualled at level 18 assassin (when backstab hits X7)?

M/T for me. You can't hit what you can't see. A M/T will A) cast Mislead, b) cast ImpInv on clone, casts SI:Div. Casts Acid Arrow on R/C (may prevent another unwanted IronSkins). Casts Breach on Ranger/Cleric. Backstabs R/C for 80 or so damage. R/C is Badly Wounded. Repeat. R/C dies a chunky death.

with all the XPin the world available i would think a
kensai/theif dual, or the other way around say 39kensai/40 theif. with uai, the char can use all scrolls armors(almost) and weapons. this MUST be the winner

Is there a reason why mislead dosent make you visible? Is it in the description?

Mislead makes you invisible until the mislead clone is destroyed (by damage or a divination spell). If you can render your clone undetectable or indestructible, you can stay invisible until the spell wears off. There is no real defense against this, which is one of the reasons why magic users or sorcerers (or bards) can be so abused.

Scythe: You originally said dualling a kensai at level 20, but later said no TOB items allowed. Does this mean you're going to play through TOB and get all the TOB experience, but not use any TOB items?

To go toe-to-toe best, you'd want a really reallly low AC, and the only way to get that, is by using a shield. Hence, Fighter Clerics will get lower ACs than Ranger Clerics (mind you, the ranger cleric can use a shield, but how common is that?)

Anywho, I'd say a monk or a swashbuckler would be the best, but only because you said they can be the max level! :p

@ Mystra - this is the first time I've ever heard of a M/T referred to as a tank. :nuts: :p
Anyway, 2 of your spells are offensive, which Scythe says aren't allowed under his definition (and I agree - otherwise, you might as well call a sorcerer a tank too ;) )

@Aldeth - an assassin? Even when dualled to a fighter, it's a little light on HP's, isn't it?

Scythe: You originally said dualling a kensai at level 20, but later said no TOB items allowed. Actually, he said "any TOB available equipment", which I assume means you CAN use it.

R/Cs multiclass also suffer a bug in their dual wield.
I'm assuming this is not "fixed" or if it is then Grand Mastery is also "fixed" making their 2* not as attractive as some other combos.

R/Cs multiclass also suffer a bug in their dual wield. :confused:

Explain, please. What is the bug?

I suppose the dual weild bonuses dont apply in the game or something.

Meh, you guy's go ahead and do it yourselves.

Maxed out R/C versus anything else.

Play them fairly, and versus them with each other.

You be the judge. :D

I still say R/C's rule all. :D

yes, scythe, please explain which bug you refer to

i don't think there is any bug... at least i haven't experienced one

Splunge, define Tank? Is it a char that can absorb lots of damage while dealing it out? M/T can do that.

Anyway, I suppose it's not the best class for this thread, but whatever.

And only 1 spells is offensive. I wouldn't call Breach an offensive spells any more than I would call Dispel Magic one.

No, I think you have to consider breach an offensive spell. Dispel magic you can use to remove enchantments from your own people, and so it's a two-way street. But breach exists to peel back the inedible shell and get to the sweet fruity parts inside. :)

@ Mystra - to me (and I concede this might be a rather narrow view), the basic requirements for a tank are:
- lots of HP's
- dish out lots of damage in an extended toe-to-toe battle

Basically, I look at a tank as a front-liner who can take on and distract enemy tanks, thus keeping your non-tanks safe(r).

And I consider Breach to be an offensive spell (it certainly isn't defensive ;) )

A blade makes for an awesome tank, AC of -24 is not uncommon. With mirror image, stoneskin and spell immunity:divination, they can really tank it.

why aint my post-count counting?!?

and yes a blade CAN make a GOOD tank, but not as good as a Ranger/cleric or a kensait/theif

i think he kai/theif would win...... theif=UAI thus making him mage, sorcere, cleric?

Bug or no bug?

In my game at least R/Cs cannot put 3* in dual wield... Am I alone in this? (They should be able to... they just can't!)

@Scythe: I put 3 stars in dual-weilding with my R'C's at character creation itself, and I never have any problems. I think you should check your game for bugs.

@Balle: Mate, UAI can only go so far. You can cast spells from scrolls, but what use is it, if you're getting wailed on the whole while? It's going to be spell failure anyway.

You want to use all the uber armor and weapons? Ranger/Cleric can do that for free...atleast, you don't get any more uber than FoA +5/Crom Faeyr. :p

Kensai/Thief gets bonuses to hit and damage, Ranger/Cleric gets Armor of Faith...at max level, just casting 2-3 of these babies gives him almost COMPLETE immunity to ALL physical damage.

You just can't compete. I don't want to make this a R/C vs K/T thread, because it is concerned with all ultimate tanks.

But...trust me, R/C can pwn K/T's so easily, its not even funny.

Hmm, calling breach offensive is a little tricky. Most frontliners will rely on a single casting of that spell, either that or carsomyr.

As for the K/T- i think it can do more damage than a R/C, in the same amount of time at least, but he will expire often.

don't forget about a dual-classed fighter/mage :
fighter lvl 9 then dualled to mage.

the character spends his weapon proficiencies on longswords (grand-mastery), 2-weapon-style and (optional) hammers.
the chars wears elven chain, so he can cast spells.

and now the fun : stoneskin, mirror-image, imp. haste and *ta-da* tensers transformation : that's about 200hp, 8 or 9 attacks per round, thac0 of a fighter, the first 10 blows or so won't harm him at all --> what do you want more ??

@Faraaz, I've got the latest official patches, but I think there are several other mods which "correct" this. However, the Kensai THACO is ridiculously low compared to R/Cs. Buffs only take you so far. Armour of Faith is NOT supposed to stack... The fact it does is a bug! Hardiness is not supposed to stack either but it does... so just about any fighter class could be 100%immune to physical damage... Unless your opponent is using Carosmyr... In which case your Armour of Faiths don't see out the first round! So I would love to try a dual to see what does actually happen.... May even SK one of each and get them to fight each other. Could be a useful hour...

@Scythe: Mate, whether the spell stacking is a bug or not is not the point here...the 'Ultimate Tank' is. At the end of the day, the R/C can be immune to physical damage.

If you do use the Carsomyr on him, and dispel the buffs, he can always cast Iron Skins, (Amulet of Power can be used, which reduces spell casting time by 1 I think, which is always a help), and then heal himself up, and then pwn the Kensai again. The Kensai has really crappy AC also, which means he is going to be taking damage a LOT faster than the R/C.

Again...

What are peoples thougthts on the best hand to hand character, only allowing for self buffs, and assuming they had the max exp points available.
Keeping that in mind, the R/C's will only be using self buffs, and if they have max exp points... :evil:

Kensai/Thief's with UAI isn't going to be enough to beat the R/C... :p

Enhanced Bard Song X N, where N is a number that approaches infinity + Use Any Item + the Arcane Buffs of the Mage class.

I'm afraid the Blade has no equal. :p
At his best the Blade stands a very good chance against everything that can possibly be thrown at him.

R/C
The R/C may not use bladed weapons, therefore they lose access to weapons which cause stat-drain, one of the game's undefendable attacks. (Stat drain is different from LVL drain. The latter can be defended against by cleric spells/items) So an R/C may not kill another R/C in battle, especially if both decide to abuse Armor of Faith (multiple castings).
Verily can a Blade do so...

F/T
The F/T can buff himself silly but his offensive prowess remains basically the same... he just becomes a whole world lot harder to kill.

Kensai/Thief
Pure offensive power, but a bit lacking on defense.

[ November 04, 2004, 09:31: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

and yes a blade CAN make a GOOD tank, but not as good as a Ranger/cleric or a kensait/theif
The blade is a near untouchable tank. He just can't be hit, and for very long periods of time! I use Haer'dalis along with a fully armoured Sarevok as my frontline tanks, and guess who ends up using all the health potions?

@Scythesong... I know it is personal preference but multiple misled singing bards counts as cheese to me :) But if cheese doesn't matter then I guess you are right the blade is able to hit and not be hit better than any other class... Just needs loads of messing about first.

I was only being fair. Armor of Faith xN is just as cheesy. :p
Of course, overcheesiness aside things pretty much narrow down to what you school you think has better buffing spells - the clerical or arcane. Caster-specific wise, I vote for arcane, hence my choice of the Blade.

I was a bit disappointed when I finally got to control Sarevok. He was not as powerful as I had thought.

I do think that the game is a bit unbalanced. Why? Because in all this discussion we've ended up with not a single Ranger, Paladin or Fighter (other than as a dual or multi class). How sad is that? Even in the fighters area of prowess the spell casters come out top.

I woudnt say thats unbalanced.
A high level cleric can make the ground shake and a wizard can make fire rain from the skies.

There is nothing that a melee artist can do that compares to that. You can say that attacks should stun an opponent, regardless of weapon. Or that everyone should get the deathbringer assault. But still no matter his speed a fighter can still not do the kind of mass destruction that magic can.

That is more than fair Shrikant... but this about just being a tank! They have all the other stuff as well... At the end of the day the straight fighting classes are NOT the best fighters.

Exactly...which begs the question, what IS the ultimate tank?

Having read everyone's opinions, I personally feel that this is like asking which car is better, the McLaren or the Ferrari...they're both great, but there's no clear cut winner.

Every class (almost) in the game has the potential to be more than an adequate tank to smash anything in the game, solo...given max experience, choice of items etc...which is what usually does happen when playing solo.

My two cents of summation. :D

@Faraaz... In a way that is what I was hoping for. There should be some rock, paper, scissors going on for the game to have balance. Shame it is with the various spell casting classes again!.

However, as I always play sorcerors or M/T who create their own tanks and rarely if ever get their hands dirty I wondered if there was a concensus on a fighter type before I tried one. As an observation Kensai/Theif would be one of the worst to actually go through. All those Thief levels unti UAI with no armour, yuk! R/C is powerful all the way through, much more fun.

After all that may just try a Barbarian or a monk... if I had any spell casting at all it would end up playing just the same as it always does -trap, summon, buff, buff, buff, buff, charge, bash, ouch, run away, repeat.

Well...on the other hand, if you play a monk or a barbarian...its Charge, Bash, Ouch, Run Away, Repeat...without the Trap, Summon, Buff, Buff, Buff...and all the buffs tend to make the "ouch, run away" come by a lot less frequently... :D

Why do you think I usually play a spell caster :D ... I missed a step out...usually there is a "artillary bomb" just before the charge! :) I guess that I was hoping to find a class that needed less buffing and was a bit more resilliant, but I guess it really does not work like that. You need the buffs just to be competative.

Again, you only need the buffs to be competitive if you plan to solo. Otherwise, you can more than comfortably use meatshields wreaking havoc up front, with healers healing them up,and mages and archers pelting away from behind.

In that scenario, buffs can be overkill.

As we've been discussing though... What makes the BEST meat shield is a spell caster with buffs. I know you can get through as you've said, but it is sad that at high levels haer'dalis is a better tank than korgan!!!

It's funny how no one has mentioned a "true" warrior class... Not that I think they are truly better, yet I wonder if game designers had intended some of the most viable competitors for the role of "ultimate tanks" to be mage-thief, kensai-thief or blade...

It's because dual and multi-classes are so overpowered in the rules used in BG II. In the IWD II / NWN rules, you can't end up with as many levels (e.g. sacrificing your 13th level of fighter is only worth 1 level of Wizard, not 10).

All depends on your definition of "tank" and how far you want to cheese it.

Without systematic abuse of the game, I would say a dwarven fighter/cleric, half-elf fighter/druid, or a human berserker/cleric or berserker/druid. For sheer tanking power, they are simple and effective choices.

Of course, if you want to powergame instead of role-play, then the Blade has it, but that level of micro-management would drive me insane.

Metagaming.

If you find yourself thinking "in the next room there are m*x, n*y and o*z, so I'll cast this, that and the third" before you open the door(or cast farsight), then he who has the best buffs is the best tank.

If what you want someone to charge in there with no buffs ( except pssibly HLA's) and buy the blades and F/Ms and R/Cs the time to cast their way to godliness, then you want a monk. Or a barbarian with the Defender of Easthaven in the off hand and Foebane in the main.

Excellent point. "Realistically", most parties would wander around very cautiously, constantly checking for traps and always having an invisible / hidden character scouting ahead (but not too far ahead in case they were spotted). You would very seldom have a chance to get all the right buffs on in time unless you buffed continually. Therefore, in "real life", the best tank would be the one who was toughest without spells.

Well, that'd make the monk quite good, although eventually you get the damage resistance anyway... Although the barb would be my choice with the DR, rage etc.

I agree with Harbourboy and Rudiger, with one reservation. Stoneskin and contingencies last so long that "realistically," anyone able to cast them would do so as soon as they rolled out of bed in the morning. Other than those exceptions (which I think are fairly significant), I agree with the two of them completely.

As a fan of the Kensai, I'd just like to point out that they don't necessarily have "crapy armor class" as has come up several times in this thread. Either the Shield Amulet or a Potion of Invulnerability takes care of that little drawback quite nicely.

Or, you could just dual-class them into a Mage, and watch the chunks fly!! :evil:

Or a thief, and see your backstab damages soar...

Kensai's make great dual-classes, but then, Truper, you will have to forego the excellent (IMHO) HLAs you would get if you had taken a multiclass instead...

Of course, you can always Shadowkeeper the stuff in, but then, that's cheating...

I'm actually in the midst of trying dual-classing a Kensai to a mage for the first time. Its been interesting, and now that I have my Kensai levels back, its quite a lot of fun: nothing quite like dealing out the damage while protected by stoneskin, etc.

On the other hand, it was rather painful getting there. I think I waited a level or so too long; my Kensai was level 10 when I dualled him. Were I to try it again, I think I'd do it at level 9. I think overall I prefer the pure Kensai from the roleplay standpoint, and I must say I don't care for dual-classing - if I want a 2 for 1 deal, I think I'll stick to multi. I can't find a good rationale for the way dual-classing works. If you were a plumber, and decided to become an electrician as well, why should that mean you can't fix a leaky faucet until you can rewire a house?

That's the way 2nd Ed. DnD works Truper...you'll notice that this problem was very neatly dealt with in 3rd Ed. DnD...

Besides, dual-classing was a very powerful method of gaining the best of both worlds as far as SoA was concerned, prior to ToB's launch.

16 million XP solos tend to take away the charm of dual classes, I admit. :rolleyes:

I always used to dual... Now I NEVER do. The 9 levels of Kensai are hardly worth it. Esp as you can't have a kit for your new class. The extra spell per level is worth more than a little off your Thaco.

Also the HLA's for Dual classes just ignore the 1st class... a really big disadvantage vs multi class.