I am greatly enjoying my playthrough with a stalker. This class can whipe out a room full of powerful monsters all by himself. The armor penalty does not affect me in any serious way(dexterity 18).

First of all, is there an error in the description? Backstab multiplier by *1x*? Should it not be 2x? By the description my stalker should deal double damage, but instead he does triple.

Second, Im a little disappointet with the special mage spells a stalker gets. They are all pointless. Protection from normal missiles? In SoA its worthless. Haste? There are plenty of mages around with it and there isnt much to choose from the 3rd level spells in any way. Minor Spell Deflection? By the time I got it there werent any small-time mages left.

It is annoying that the druids have such a poor selection. A paladin has an access to awesome clerical spells which are still of use even at high levels. The low level(and even high level) druid spells are just... awful!

So, what spells do you take for a ranger/kits? Armor of Faith is a must, I understand. Call Lightining can be of some use in a few cases, I guess. And be free do discuss this class and his kits in however you want.

First of all, is there an error in the description? Backstab multiplier by *1x*? Should it not be 2x? By the description my stalker should deal double damage, but instead he does triple. Stalkers backstab for double damage at levels 1-8, triple damage at levels 9-16, and quadruple damage at levels 17 and above. The original kit description is accurate but poorly phrased--1x bonus means base (1x) +1x damage aka double damage, 2x means base (1x) + 2x aka triple, etc. The one from the Baldurdash GTU is flat out wrong.

Haste? There are plenty of mages around with it and there isnt much to choose from the 3rd level spells in any way.I cast up to five hastes per rest period, it is one of the best spells in the game; it's certainly the best at that level, so there is no reason to complain.

Yeah, and why waste your mage's lv3 spell slot on haste when you can have your Stalker cast it? ;) Since there are a lot of great lv3 spells I'm sure your mage will welcome a free slot or two.

As for other Stalker spells I'm sure you can make some use of Barkskin (AC and save vs. spells) and Resist Fire&Cold. For lv.3 spells Haste is great, Resist Fire can help, Minor Spell Turning (as minor as it is, it still can stop 4 magic missiles) is OK as is Call Lightning when you're outdoors.

I can find uses for Call Lightning but I don't usually cast it from a fighter type so that would be a little different.

True Druids though get nasty if they get over that huge XP gap and get their high level spells. They get a bit different and come into their own after that point.

The stalker does sound interesting though and I sometimes feel like you about their mage spells. Some of them I just don't use. Certain ones the use comes in how and when you do certain things though. Like if you time Fir'Kraag's dungeon for when you have the protection from normal missiles for just starting it can be useful. I believe they shoot normal arrows at you at that point. As has been said though more haste casters can always be a good thing. Specially a fighter that can buff himself up and get ready for action more quickly.

Actually, I've found that Armor of Faith isn't very useful for Rangers/Paladins. The problem is that you have to take the Ranger's caster level into account. Until you hit level 12 or 13 (the way the spell description is written is ambiguous), AoF will only prevent 5% of damage, and only 10% after that, since a Ranger's casting level is capped at 9. So at low levels, AoF is only going to prevent 1 damage per hit. If you want a defensive spell, you are probably better off just going with Cure Light Wounds.

I think you're generally right, and a Stalker doesn't really benefit all that much from spellcasting. That leaves stealth/backstabbing as its attraction, and if that's what you want, why not play a fighter/thief instead? In the long run, you get a better backstab multiplier, and a wider choice of HLA's.

Search for a post made by sikret detailing the stalker's strength. Very detailed and helpful

[edit] Nevermid found it for you
http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/10/5836.html

Personally I've never been a big stalker fan. I just don't see what they have that a good F/T doesn't have (especially after UAI)

Druid spells are awful? What about Iron Skins? Elemental Summoning? Am I missing something here?

Once backstab hits 4x with high-level fighter weapons and the occasional mage spell and stealth, you're talking about a pretty wicked character, to my mind. Backstab + Critical Strike = Chunks.

DtD

Druid spells are awful? What about Iron Skins? Elemental Summoning? Am I missing something here? You're missing that Stalkers are rangers, not druids. They only get spells up to level 3, which means no Ironskins and no Elemental Summoning.

Spells -- Armor of Faith is okay, so is bless and entangle. For second level: barkskin and slow poison are useful. I like summon insect for third level spells. I rarely use spells with either the Ranger or Paladin (the other party member are so much more effective and you can't put the pointy end in the bad guy casting spells).

The multiclass F/T is a great character with a boatload of HLA's -- however, I think most people either use it as a stealthy fighter or a beefed up thief. If you're going the stealthy fighter mode -- and don't mind the good alignment -- then stalker is a little better (more hit points and faster THAC0 progression). The only thing you really gain from UAI is a better armor selection and that's not really a big deal late in the game (the Shadow dragon armor or grandmaster armor is quite adequate).

The dualled F/T is a different beast entirely. There are a lot of bonuses, but the HLA's will be for the thief and the THAC0 will not be as good as the Stalker.

For solo, I think F/T is better. But I think they are pretty equivalent in party play since any weaknesses can be subsidized by an NPC.

[ April 27, 2007, 17:52: Message edited by: T2Bruno ]

Yah, rangers only get up to 3rd level spells... unless you use the expanded spell progression component of Zyraen's Miscellany...

Okay, so it's cheating a bit, but nonetheless, it's available.

I completely agree with nataben.

F/T can be dwarves, making 'em even better! :D

Personally I've never been a big stalker fan. I just don't see what they have that a good F/T doesn't have (especially after UAI)
With equal XP (experience points) the F/T's THAC0 is worse than the Stalker's. The F/T will eventually have a better selection of HLAs though. In general, stalker is a bit more powerful than the F/T because of better THAC0 and spells such as Armor of Faith.

Valygar, in particular, is much more powerful than an F/T because of his personal equipments which can also be upgraded if you have IA (and I know that you have IA, nataben! :) ).

In general, stalker is a bit more powerful than the F/T because of better THAC0 and spells such as Armor of Faith.Not really. F/T:
-Traps.
-Better backstab.
-Heavy armor when ever thief skills aren't needed.
-All races. Like thieves better? Take a halfling. Fighters? Half-orc.
-Special Ability: Use Any Item.

Stalker:
-Slighty better THAC0.
-Bad spells.
-(The notorious) Special ability: Peeping. :p

When you get to a high enough level to have HLAs, the difference in THAC0 between a F/T and a Stalker isn't much at all. It really doesn't matter, because both will hit almost every time.

Stalkers get Armor of Faith.

Fighter/Thieves get a whole lot more HLAs to choose from, and can handle locks, traps, picking pockets, detecting illusions, and are better backstabbers. They can choose to be any race except Human (half-orcs get a higher starting STR than any Stalker; Gnomes, Dwarves, and Halflings get better saving throws).

You choose. I'm going with a F/T.

You choose.

If (like me) you won't play a Stalker or a Fighter/Thief MC as the PC you may want to have Valygar in your party (there is no F/T NPC in the game so that choice is actually a very easy one).

Valygar is certainly one of my favourite NPC in the BG series. Stalkers are nice effective characters who do require some micromanagment (like every backstabbers). I don't like MC characters that much (they take ages to level up though you still get HLAs at the same time -global XPs are taken into account).

The difference in THAC0s is not a "slight" one at all; but well, it's a matter of playing style. After all, none of the classes/kits should be too much more powerful than its alternatives. Players have always the choice to play the game with different characters in different game-sessions and enjoy the differences.

The difference in THAC0s is not a "slight" one at all; but well, it's a matter of playing style. After Absolutely. While initially slight (the disparity peaks between 3.6 and 4 million XP, where the Thac0 difference is mere 5 points), the difference actually becomes completely non-existent by 6 million experience. Until the 6 million experience mark, the difference averages out to about 2 points. Given that a blade with a baseThac0 of 10 manages just fine throughout the whole of SoA and ToB, it is clear that the difference is far more negligible than it looks at first blush.

Drew, I get the impression Sikret disagrees with the idea that the difference is basically negligible. Thanks for posting the facts.

Caradhras makes a great point as well. If you're not willing to play a F/T or Stalker, just take Valygar. Personally I think he's very boring, but he sure is effective.

You know, the difference in Thac0 between a F/M/T and a Stalker is never more than 7 points (between 3.6 and 4 million, the Ranger has a Thac0 of 20 and the F/M/T has a Thac0 of 13) and usually much smaller than that, as well. In my humble opinion, there is really no reason to play a F/T when, between the familiar's bonus hitpoints and judicious use of Tenser's transformation, most of the disadvantages present with the F/T are completely negated. As an added bonus, the F/M/T gets much better Mage spells than the stalker.

Calling a Thac0 difference of 5 a "mere" difference doesn't make much sense. It's exactly the same as saying there is no effective difference between wearing leather armor and wearing plate mail, because the armor rating differs by a mere 5 levels.

I don't know if I agree with your last post Drew.

The reason is that a FT and a FMT have a very different feel to them. With ToB installed, the FT still gets a familiar also.

I really like the ability to play one of the short races. IMHO, they're the best options in the BG series. They all get great saving throw bonuses, which will save your bacon a lot!

I'm not going to calculate it out, but a Dwarf F/T played from BG1 will naturally regenerate, have sooo many HP (especially after gaining a familiar) and will have a high enough DEX that pointy ears won't make a difference.

pointy ears won't make a difference No, but stoneskinned pointy ears will make a difference . ;)

A pointy ears played from BG1 still gets a bit of an advantage. During BG2 and ToB it actually can make it over that 3point gap in Dex(18-20) and reach the next higher AC adjustment, +2 more in missile attack adj, and 10-15% dex bonus to most thieving skills over the dwarf which while at very high level might not matter much can be a big help in BG1 and a fair portion of BG2.

The Dwarf F/T will never be able to make it over the gap because the things in hell/pocket realm in BG2 and the deck of many things reward with an if/then programming that checks for fighter first as I recall so the F/T will gain Strength from them instead of Dexterity. As I recall. Only Lum's Machine gives a specific Dex bonus in BG2/ToB and if that's the only one it's not really a very worthwhile boost for the dwarf.

The dwarf however would have regeneration early on such as in BG where regeneration is particularly hard to get and would have slightly higher HP and 2 higher Constitution. the regeneration can be overcome by items in BG2/ToB. It will keep better saves to poison and magic and it's racial bonus to thieving skills does overcome the elves higher dex advantage to lockpicking and detecting traps which some do see as the only real thieving skills that matter.


it's a give and take. specially at the lower more critical levels between the two races.

However when it comes to thieves. Particularly over the course of both games and their expansions.

The Halflings are still king. At low levels they have the highest thieving skill bonuses of any thief combination when they can have a dex as high as any elf. Their con is 1 lower than the Dwarf so they don't regenerate but they can have as many HP as the Dwarf(19 and 20 Con have the same HP modifier). Lum's machine can give them slight natural regeneration over the course of both games but the dwarves will end up with a very small advantage in hp in the end. They get the saving throw bonuses to poison and magic that are good. There are multiple things that boost up their one drawback stat. Strength for them max's out at 23 instead of 24 if your all about the bonuses but there are items that you can't tell the difference from other F/T.

So a short race does win out but it is not the Dwarf.


The F/T and the Stalker both have different styles and feels to me though. Not just between the F/M/T and the two. The Stalker can ready itself with certain protections even if they aren't as good as a Druid/Cleric but they can still have a nice affect in tougher fights or slow down the damage that a particularly hard hitter will do to the Stalker.

[ May 06, 2007, 17:01: Message edited by: starwalker ]

thethruth, there are many, many scrolls of stoneskin around in the game. I've had dwarf F/T's just horder the suckers.

starwalker, I agree that halflings are better F/T's, but I just personally prefer dwarves.

The 19 STR as opposed to 18 STR in BG1 makes a big difference though, and in SoA you aren't tied down by needing a STR boosting item (but for me, the point is moot, since I end up dual-weilding Crom Faeyr).

Calling a Thac0 difference of 5 a "mere" difference doesn't make much sense. It's exactly the same as saying there is no effective difference between wearing leather armor and wearing plate mail, because the armor rating differs by a mere 5 levels.Except that when the difference is 5 points, the F/T still has a Thac0 of 6, which is more than enough to hit pretty much anything, vs the Stalker's Thac0 of 1....and then the difference shrinks until it goes away.

Here's how it works:
300K exp: The Stalker's Thac0 is 12. The F/T has a Thac0 of 13
600K: Stalker=11 , F/T=12
1 Million: Stalker=10, F/T=11
1.5 Mil: Stalker=8, F/T=10
2 Mil: Stalker=7, F/T=9
2.5 Mil: Stalker=6, F/T=8
3 Mil: Stalker=3, F/T=7
3.5 Mil: Stalker=2, F/T=6
4 Mil: Stalker=0, F/T=5
4.5 Mil: Stalker=0, F/T=4
5 Mil: Stalker=0, F/T=3
5.5 Mil: Stalker=0, F/T= 2
6 Mil: Stalker=0, F/T=1
6.5 Mil: Stalker=0, F/T=0
As you can see, when you have a difference of 5 is rather important. Most of the Game, the difference is only 2 points.

(My initial analysis failed to take advancement past level 20 into account, so it was initially off by .5 million XP)

@Klorox: If it weren't for the fact that the F/T has no way (short of using a few of the game's limited scrolls) of protecting himself against Imprisonment, can't wade into Melee without getting hurt (the FMT can cast PFMW), and can't drop a Wizard's combat protections when he needs to, I'd probably agree with you. The F/M/T can do any of those things multiple times per day for free and loses almost nothing in exchange for it.

[ May 06, 2007, 21:40: Message edited by: Drew ]

The difference is only 2 points if you have a lot of mod's which gives you a lot more experience to earn.

If you don't have a lot of mods the difference is actually about 4 for a good portion of the game. That would be towards the end of BG2 and into ToB in fact by your numbers since 5mil and above is unlikely to be reached. The experience is such that 4.5mil might be stretching it a bit at the end of ToB with no real mods to speak of.