Robe of Vecna is an infamous item for it cheesy casting time modifier bonus and its relatively low price in the shop. In the current version of Improved Anvil, I have increased its price by 50%. I'm looking for feedback to decide what to do with it for the next version of IA. Thanks in advance!

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 63 user(s) have voted.
Voting stops at October 29, 2006 23:32 board time.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: What to do with Robe of Vecna? (63 votes.)

What to do with Robe of Vecna? (Choose 1)
* Remove it from the shop but let it be available in the inventory of a very tough enemy - 59% (37)
* Keep it in the shop; 50% increase in its price is fine - 19% (12)
* Keep it in the shop, but increase its price even further - 5% (3)
* Keep it in the shop, but tweak it to grant less casting time bonus - 17% (11)

Didnt you already do something with it in the current version? In fact, you made it even more powerful...and price is no factor for a thieving character.

After some hesitation, I voted for the fourth option. I remembered that it was very useful to my spellcaster protagonist that he could cast spells practically instantly. On the other hand, I didn't like it too much, it spoiled the "feeling" of casting a magical spell. I think you could also increase its price beside decreasing the casting time bonus.

Mongerman,

The upgrade you referred to is not Robe of Vecna's upgrade; it is Robe of the Apprenti's. Robe of Vecna is just used as an ingredient. However, any possible change in Robe of Vecna's abilities will reflect itself in the upgrade result as well.


and price is no factor for a thieving character
You are right. But, gaining money through stealing and selling items repeatedly is an extremely cheesy method (almost a cheat, IMO). People can also use CLUAConsole cheat to AddGold. I cannot prevent people from spoiling the fun of their own games by doing such things. A player who starts the cheesy way of stealing items just to sell them and do it over and over again, already knows that (s)he can gain as much money as (s)he wants. So, I wonder why (s)he should even bother to waste his/her time. (S)He can cheat the gold and save the time, eh? But then, there will remain no fun in the game.

[ October 17, 2006, 02:43: Message edited by: Sikret ]

Definately lower the casting speed bonus. I think that as only 2 or 3 it doesn't do much to unbalance the game, especially if you jack up the price a lot.

I vote for number one. (but you were expecting this, aye?) Battling a togh mage guy with Robe of Vecna FOR Robe of Vecna would be super cool! :thumb: Shangalar is a good candidate if you do not want to create a new encounter! :mommy:

Agree that #1 is the way to go.

I would like to see it as a quest item. It is cheezy early on, but as you get to the end of SOA and start of TOB it does not seem to cheezy next to vorpal weapons or hammers that give you 25 strength when held.

How about putting it on the Matron Mother or one of Jon's apprentices?

That way you have to go through a lot to get it, plus you get it in time (very timely!!! :) ) for the final battle(s).

At this point it is not cheezy to my mind.

My opinion is quite the same as Silverstar's. Fighting for the robe makes it more worthwhile ;)
Besides, even without "cheating" for money, amassing quite the wealth is far too easy.

Although Shangalar? He has a nasty habit of "freezing" on the table, making the loot unreachable, (Well, he did so in both my last games atleast. I blame my summons for autoattacking him) plus you already get the SotM in that encounter. Getting the robe at the same time seems overkill IMHO :p

A brand spanking new wizard, hell, maybe even a high-level C/M in one of the pits in the planar prison perhaps? :evil:

Mekrath? Unless my memory fails, his only item worth notice is a Staff of Ressurection, and that's not even on person. You can get it without fighting him.

Edwins Nether scroll lich? Bad idea perhaps, making it force you to bring Edwin along to get the robe.

That crazed wizard holding the spellhold ward stone? Perth, was it?

The lich in Ust Natha? This way you can't get the robe right off the bat after starting a new game either!

There are many possibilities, even without making a new encounter :)

Make it just before or after the Underdark or even in between if you like :)

You start getting some pretty powerful weapons around this time so it would be ok to add it in about now. Maybe on that mage, the imprisoned one? Or possibly some new encounter in Ust Natha :D

I voted for number one too.

I never liked the idea of been able to acquire such a powerful item in a store.
I agree with Silverstar, battling a mage using the robe would be rather gratifying. I only hope, I’ll be able to, actually, beat the mage. :bad:

[ October 17, 2006, 19:26: Message edited by: Atmer ]

This robe is one of the (many) cheesy items you can buy. I always felt bad when I did use it or the Shield of Balduran. Shops sell too many uber powered items even if some of these are convenient like the belt of STR in the Adventurer's Mart, it's a bit silly to have a puny mage with a 19 STR because of this belt standing next to an extraordinary strong and muscular Half Orc or a character who has benefited from the Tome in BG1. The same goes for the Bracers of Dexterity. I wonder when some players get flushed with excitement when they brag about their character's stats, there are so many stats enhancing items it almost becomes pointless.
It's like the dragon slaying sword in Firkraag's dungeon... How convenient to find a dragon slaying sword right in the lair of a great wyrm (even if the story is actually not that bad).
Anyway I voted for the first option, IMO we should have to defeat a very high level mage with a decent AI who would take advantage of the Robe him/herself... That would be much more rewarding.

What about defeating the Vecna himself? :shake: Planar Sphere mod actually introduced Shade of Vecna, a real powerful arch-lich worth of 500.000 xp (OK I agree this is way too much, but still...) He had eye and cloak of Vecna (uber cool items!) That is, if you can beat him without any perma-deaths in your party. :mommy:

I voted for number one, since I think such an overpowered item seldomly cn be found at shops...

Fortunately, the problems with Bracers of Dexterity and Dragonslayer sword had been already solved in Improved Anvil v3.0. None of them can be acquired easily in the game.

As for Robe of Vecna, I will wait to see the final result of the poll.

Question for those who preferred No.1 to No.4: Do you think that +4 bonus on casting speed is fine? How about doing both things: removing the robe from the shop (and having it on a tough enemy) as well as decreasing its bonus?

What about defeating the Vecna himself? [grinning, shaking head] Planar Sphere mod actually introduced Shade of Vecna, a real powerful arch-lich worth of 500.000 xp (OK I agree this is way too much, but still...) He had eye and cloak of Vecna (uber cool items!) That is, if you can beat him without any perma-deaths in your party. [scared] Haha, come on! 500k exp? You got to be kidding me? What was he, 25 feet tall? Ok, I agree that liches should be tought, and Vecna is a god after all, but come on, 500k is just silly :p

Did he at least had smart AI? Or was he cheating his guts out? If it was the former, I'd like to try it. If it was the latter, I spit on it :)

About cloak itself: put it on über hard enemy mage, and that's it. If he will have a mind to use it well it will be effort enought to obtain it, and there is no need to decrease casting bonus. Imo, that is, ofcourse.

Technically, you can just not use a "broken" item, you know...

Put it on a random peasant somewhere in Amn. But dont say who or where.

That way you send everyone on a random killing spree.

And if they find it, make the peasant shapechange back into an alhoon who will instantly cast timestop with no casting time, then improved alacrity, followed by a nasty sequence involving Gate, Greater malison, Wail of the Banshee, and maybe another timestop. You could even invent spells for this creature, maybe Mass Lower Resistance, Mass Dominate (from IWD), Summon Monster 9 (maybe summons more illithids next to your party member with the weakest saves?). A trigger with 3 chain lightnings, or a higher level trigger with 3 ADHW?

You could make the alhoon able to cast some druid spells like creeping doom and call lightning too, should be a really fun battle.

If you make it that hard, you might just want to give the guy more than just the robe of vecna.

After thoughts...

You could also make him immune to timestop.

Another idea would be to give it to a powerful but wellknown magic user. How about the cowled wizards? In order to win the Robe, you have to assault and completely destroy the cowled wizards in the government district.

@Sikret: yep that would be nice, I always thought this bonus was way over the top... At the same time having a smart mage wear it would make acquiring it a real pain (unless you have a Wizard Slayer).

I think I may give Improved Anvil a try when I get more time to spare. I never liked the way some of these items were acquired.

The cowled wizard idea is nice by the way, only that guy ought to be fearsome, regular cowled wizards are not so tough.

If it was the latter, I spit on it Looks like a lot of spittle is required. :D

Why not just remove the robe ?
It is from bonus merchant and doesn't even belong into the original game. Mages are overpowered even without it.

But Proteus_za's idea is also great, although the robe owner must be made more powerful. :D
And if you decide to attack this peasant all other peasants must also go hostile and attack your characters in melee, and you must get a reputation drop of course for each peasant you kill (including the robe owner.)

I don't see any reason to remove it; it will just make all the people who DO want it complain. If it's that bad for you, just don't buy it.

Yeah I also think removing is a bad idea, people install IA (also) because they want mighty and powerful things which they have to fight for. (But of course, I still keep my opinion about decreasing the spell-casting bonus and possible price increase.)

If it's that bad for you, just don't buy it. But why change it with the mod then ?
If players want to have fun with it then let them have it, else "don't buy it".

Giving the robe to an enemy will directly lead it into the player's inventory, the "do I have to buy this cheesy item or not" border will already be crossed.

Another idea would be adding a serious drawback to the robe, like making it a cursed item which sets strength to 7 (which can't be raised magically).

Yes, Shade of Vecna was cheesy, he uses a special spell:Wave of Obliteration:area effect, does 30-60 dmg, knocks back, save vs spell at -4 or disintegrated. He just casts a few of these, then casts other fun unique spells like Powerword:Burn (save vs death at penalty or die horribly, perma-burn death:black ash!) or he opens a gate to nether worlds below the target (save or be shredded into pieces by demons, perma death:chunkified!) etc. etc. He also has a few Modrons (adamantite golems actually) around who act as massive tanks to protect him. Neat! :p

It is cheesy, right, but Planar Sphere mod is cheesy. You save the universe from a guy who beats Gods themselves, including Lady of Pain and Lord Ao. : :nuts:

I uninstalled the mod, it was fun, but the total XP it gives in the end (1M quest XP to everyone for saving the whole universe on top of massive XP for killing a lot of super-cheesy monsters) and uber-powerful items are just too much for my tastes! :toofar:

I like the idea of giving the robe to a Cowled Wizard leader, so we have to kill every single of them. There would be a solid reason to kill those, at least! Only...how will it fit in with Planar Sphere:Mage Stronghold? :confused:

With all the other mages dead, guess who is the new magical power in Athkatla? Guess those apprentices have no where else to go now.

Another idea for giving the robe some drawbacks, you can make it magnetic. You get an armor class penalty of 4 (all weapons are sucked towards you), a damage bonus vs melee (to you) of 4, and double damage from lightning attacks.

I too would like to see it added to the inventory of an enemy- it never felt right that you could buy an item like that. To me, it is more on a level with the likes of Crom Faeyr- which had to be forged from multiple pieces. Items that powerful should be earned, not bought.

I would prefer a combination of option 1 and 4 (I voted for number 1, because that would be the best choice if I could only choose one).

So option 1 is winning fair and square! :happy:

Do you intend to do a mod for it then Sikret? Make it extra crispy and scary and tough and all...Robe of Vecna is an artifact level item anyway!

Oh and if you could make it a seperate mod from IA, it would be even cooler! (IMHO)

It won't be a new mod, Silverstar. All tweaks (and fixes) I apply to the game are (and will be) collected and available in Improved Anvil.

Hey Sikret, could you make IA fights separate install from fixes and tweaks? (I wan't my Robe of Vecna as it is :) ) Or fixes and tweaks optional install?

What I have read, I really liked to experience IA tactic encounters but without new weapons. Or tweaks wich I might not want to install.

Improved Anvil's items, fixes and tactical improvements form a coherent unit. If any of them was separated from the rest, it would result in quality loss, and would decrease overall playing experience.

Hmm, I see. Thanks anyway.

I'm not an experienced modder, but that doesn't sound right to me. Besides, I thought the problem was that some of the stuff in it was inter-dependent?

You're talking of the same thing. If the dependencies were removed artificially, Improved Anvil wouldn't be Improved Anvil.

I'm not an experienced modder, but that doesn't sound right to me.If I interpret your words correctly, I would like to note that it belongs to an author's freedom (regardless of any dependencies) how he or she wants to introduce his/her work. Even if something could be divided into multiple components, it's the author's right to decide whether to do it. A mod's overall atmosphere is determined by all of its installed components together (this is what CamDawg and some others fail to understand), so if the author wants to take the choice from the player, he has all right to do it.

...I can't seem to be able to express this adequately (even for myself), so let me give a couple example situations.

1. Everything would work perfectly fine separately, but the author decided that everything 'should' be installed together for maximum 'quality' (as defined by the author's own opinions) and thus made it only one component.

2. Things would NOT work fine apart from each other, and removing the conflicts/dependencies would result in a loss of content and thus quality.

Now, what you said before (not the post just above this one but the one before that) could be interpreted as situation #1, when I was 99% sure it was actually situation #2. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't taken wrong by Anjo. :)

Author's freedom aside, I think the kind of mentality that would result in situation #1 is reprehensible. To not even give the players the choice (if they reasonably can), when [released] mods are for the players and not the modders, is quite egocentric IMHO. I've always had a problem with "my way or the highway".

Also, do try to keep the politics out of all but a few threads, eh? ;)

[ October 19, 2006, 02:38: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

Despite being a fan of IA, I'm going to back Felinoid on this one. There are certain components of IA I rather not install. For example, just cast Immunity:div and impr invisibility. Most mages now try to strike you with their fists/staves. The only exception I've seen is Lavok. Yeah I know mages being able to cast spells on invisible creatures are cheating. But its the only weapon the ai has againt superior human intelligence haha.

Ehm, what? Read my post a little closer.

Ehm....you prefer optional components right?

I too think hat optional components would be very convenient, but I guess Sikret has his own reasons for not doing so...

Despite being a fan of IA, I'm going to back Felinoid on this one. There are certain components of IA I rather not install. For example, just cast Immunity:div and impr invisibility. Most mages now try to strike you with their fists/staves. The only exception I've seen is Lavok.
This is definitely not true. Mages would still cast their area-effect spells and their summoning spells if you are invisible. Only spells which normally target an individual are forbidden to be cast on invisible characters, because as you said it was a cheat and a bug of original game which would allow them to cast such spells (and to fire spell triggers) on invisible targets. Actually this particular bug-fix is one of the best and most important fixes IA applies to the game.

There was actually another bug in the game which would allow players to deceive mages not to cast any spells and to attack by their fists/staves despite having spells (even area spells). This bug is also fixed by IA. If a mage has area spells or summoning spells you have no way to deceive him/her not to cast them.

See the related text file about fixes in the "Documents" folder for more information about the fixes and tweaks IA applies to the game.

@Felinoid
Yes, it is actually situation 2. The components of the mod are inter-dependent.

[ October 19, 2006, 14:47: Message edited by: Sikret ]

Could this be a bug with my game? I've only seen Lavok cast energy blades and BBOD when my PC was immune to div. Liches usually summon a efreeti, then resort to melee and protective spells.

Send me through PM which mage or Lich you think to be behaving not appropriately and I will check his/her script separately and will let you know the result. Thank you.

Fel: please notice that I used "an author", not Sikret.
I referred to your #2 here:
You're talking of the same thing. If the dependencies were removed artificially, Improved Anvil wouldn't be Improved Anvil.E.g. a newly added item could be removed from an improved enemy's (who can be fought in an improved battle) inventory, and added to a store. So the improved battle could be added to a different component (tactical component), while the item would be in another component. This would be an artificial way to remove the dependency -- with an obvious result. Do you get the point?

On the other hand, even if they were independent, this is still a wrong approach:
1. Everything would work perfectly fine separately, but the author decided that everything 'should' be installed together for maximum 'quality' (as defined by the author's own opinions) and thus made it only one component.For one "little" reason: the author decides. He or she can listen to player feedback, or not. It's very sad that on certain IE forums, author freedom became something that needs to be condemned if it doesn't follow certain guidelines. Absolutely incorrect. If something can be condemned, it's the behaviour of those modders/players (not you Fel -- just to assure you won't misinterpret it) who imply that those authors should be despised who don't act according to what the public expects. People have one (or rather two) way to express their negative opinion: by telling it politely, and by not downloading the mod. I don't want to hijack this thread about IA, so I won't detail my point any further. I guess it's obvious to everyone.

I agree with Baronius. A player is always free. He is free to play or not to play a mod. Modders, on the other hand, are also free to make their mods in the best way that makes sense to them. So much was a general point (not paritcularly about IA).

As for IA, as I said before, Felinoid's 99% guess about his situation 2 was correct. IA's different components depend on each other.

An item triggers a quest, a quest leads to an enhanced battle, the enhanced enemy has an item, the item triggers another creature to spawn, the creatures says something about another item, the other item is with another enhanced enemey, now all these items can be used to forge a new item etc...

Dividing these events and items into separate components doesn't make sense to me. The same is true about the tweaks and fixes I have applied to the game, because I have written the creatures' scripts based on the changes and tweaks I have applied to the game.

[ October 19, 2006, 15:24: Message edited by: Sikret ]

I take it is much as a book. By reading a chapter or the whole book, the experience is different. But I know that argument is hard to use here, hence I prefer to let the author decide what should be done. I as player can allways decide wich mod to install :) BTW This has been discussed - I think to remember - at either G3 or BWL before. Different people different opinions.

Back to topic:

It seems to be a very "laden" issue with RoV. Perhaps the time is to do something dramatic? (read: remove RoV to a different location or split it in parts wich can be melted together like other items)

Why mess with the original "classic" items? And then add them to IA wich doesn't let me choose do I want them or not. IA already comes with custom weapons so why not just concentrate on those? That would allow me to just not use them. I love to use those old trusted items, FoA, RoV, SotM and so on and I really don't like to find any of them changed. That's just my 2 cents.

Why mess with the original "classic" items? Well for instance it's just one of the ideas with a mod. Then You can chose to install or not. "Classic" item sometimes just need to be adjusted.

I referred to your #2 here: I know. In fact, I was careful to point out that it was only the post before that which didn't. This was just to clear up a possible misunderstanding for others who don't know the situation.

On the author freedom issue, yes, they've got complete freedom to make their mod however they want. It's not like anyone has the power to make them change it. But when a mod is for the players, ignoring the players' desires for no reason at all (NOT the situation with IA) would be...well, let's just say that even freedom of speech means freedom to be a d*ck with what you say. And of course the player is still free to not download the mod, or provide feedback and be ignored (on the sit #1 assumption), but how much good does it do to make a mod that noone likes, when a simple change that affects nothing would balloon that number, making more people happy? (Again, NOT the situation with IA.)
Why mess with the original "classic" items? And then add them to IA wich doesn't let me choose do I want them or not. IA already comes with custom weapons so why not just concentrate on those? I have to say I agree with this sentiment. When a mod is necessarily one component, as this one is, you have to be very careful what you screw with. An 'improvement' like this can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some players. My vote goes toward not changing the robe AT ALL, though an increase in price might be appropriate given its power.

though an increase in price might be appropriate given its power. Allready implemented in IA3. And it's good.

Well we just have to disagree, but in the end Sikret is the one to decide what to do. Let's wait and see :)

I think Vecna should be revised as follows:

1. casting time for all spells set to 1
2. Improved Alacrity when worn
3. After a spell is cast, spellbook is refreshed as if caster had rested a full night

To offset the advantages, AC should be 6 (vs 5), and charisma reduced by 1

3. After a spell is cast, spellbook is refreshed as if caster had rested a full night Isn't that a bit heavy? I would go for a multi C/M then :)

Of course it's heavy; I think that was the point. Splunge is known around here for being...well, it's hard to describe, but I believe the preferred term is "cheeky".

but how much good does it do to make a mod that noone likes, when a simple change that affects nothing would balloon that number, making more people happy?I'm sure that authors are well aware of this. If an author makes a decision, he undertakes the possible consequences. I agree that it's good if more players are happy. On the other hand, I strongly condemn when certain modders give hints how to hack someone's mod to change on its use without the author's consent just because it would make more players happy. I also condemn when a good modder is tried to be mired just because his decisions e.g. aren't friendly to a certain group of players (Often this is "decided" by certain modders, and not by the players themselves, but let's keep out 'politics' , even in any general form, as you suggested.) All in all, I think that the most important is good communication between players and mod makers, to respect each other, and to strive for finding the golden mean, to satisfy everyone.

1. casting time for all spells set to 1
2. Improved Alacrity when worn
3. After a spell is cast, spellbook is refreshed as if caster had rested a full nightI think 1., and especially 3., are too strong. I would just decrease the casting time, but not as much as originally in RoV. Improved Alacrity sounds a good idea to me.

On the other hand, I strongly condemn when certain modders give hints how to hack someone's mod to change on its use without the author's consent just because it would make more players happy. ...I was going to argue this on a public/private basis, but then the phrase "without the author's consent" hit me right between the eyes. It's still up to the author themselves if they want to give private instructions on how to circumvent things in their mod. And of course up to them to be tyrannical with their mod if they wish, but...meh. I don't think modders who would actually do that would be on the public modding scene very long anyway, and I haven't ever seen anyone that fits that extreme.
All in all, I think that the most important is good communication between players and mod makers, to respect each other, and to strive for finding the golden mean, to satisfy everyone. Aye. It's a cliche for a reason: Communication really is the most important part of ANY relationship, whether it's intimacy with someone you love, or even just a business relationship.

I thought that splunge was just joking, wasn't he? This thread is started to make a decision to decrease the robe's power (or at least to make it harder to possess) not to increase its power.

I say put it in Jon's 'quarters' in Spellhold. It would make a lot of sense being there.

And NO it is not overpowered compared to some of the uber weapons etc.

Joking? I think not.

I believe that the changes I was suggesting would essentially give a mage the ability to cast any spell from his/her spellbook 10 times (or maybe 5) per round (it wouldn't matter whether a spell was initially memorized or not, since you could simply swap spells at will and have them available after the next casting).

This would be sooo cool. But without the -1 to charisma, it would be a tad overpowered.

:p

:doh: Ah! I had forgotten the charisma penalty.

Yes, without the -1 penalty to charisma, it would have been almost identical with Ctrl-Y. As you said, a tad overpowered! But the charisma penalty seems to balance everything.

Now, do you want me to make your suggested robe for you or do you prefer to ctrl-Y everyone and use shadow keeper to apply the charisma penalty to your mage? ;) :)

Might I recommend DOUBLING that CHA penalty!!

(...Pause for dramatic impact...)

Those are some halfway decent bonuses being granted here. But with such drawback added, casters will have a serious dillemma on their hands.

"Hmm. Beyond godlike casting powers vs. having to pay 127GP for those magical bullets instead of 125GP?"

I can name at least one player who'd be sticking with his trusty traveler's robe! Damn skippy!

That would be great if only single class Thieves with UAI could use it!

Robe of Vecna + Carsomyr... That would be awesome. Add an area of wild magic centered on the wearer for some extra fun. :)

I voted to remove it from the shop and place it in the inventory of a tough foe, but I think it should also be made weaker or removed from the game all together.

quote:
------------------------------------------------- Why mess with the original "classic" items? And then add them to IA wich doesn't let me choose do I want them or not. IA already comes with custom weapons so why not just concentrate on those?


quote:
-------------------------------------------------
I have to say I agree with this sentiment. When a mod is necessarily one component, as this one is, you have to be very careful what you screw with. An 'improvement' like this can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some players. My vote goes toward not changing the robe AT ALL, though an increase in price might be appropriate given its power.
Amen to that. I gave a quick 'once over' of the items list and was put off that player had to pay substantially in item/gold to "upgrade" Carsomyr just to get it to do what its description says it does (i.e. plus 5/6, dispel on hit, +50MR, maybe a bonus against CE 1d6?). Heck, in my games the Holy Avenger already works as advertised, so I hesitate to add a mod that effectively 'nerfs' one of the premiere weapons in the game. I know there's a lot more to Anvil than that, but why voluntarily install a mod that'll nerf a fine Paladin weapon that been around (buggy or fixed) since day 1? Even if I'm not a pally and don't have Keldorn or the Japanese jailbait chick, perhaps I'll decide to use a HL thief as PC, or Jan.

At least with the Gaxx upgrade in Anvil, a player can decide whether the economics of freeing up a ring slot is worth the slight improvement of Gaxx at the cost of a serious amount of resources, or to just keep the original Ring of Gaxx with all its benefits and save the gold/components.

Just goes to show how oddball the RPG/PCG can be, why, just the other day I read an extended debate - that ran for pages - regarding assigning alignment to various heroes or ne'er do wells. There's no shortage of strongly held opinions.

I've been really enjoying a handful of great mods my last few runs of BGII, so maybe when my current list plays itself out I revisit IA as a substitute mod. But I'd really like to thank everyone involved for all the hard work put into the Tactics- Ascension-Questpack- Unfinished Bus- Oversight -G3Anniversary- Upgraded Items- Banter- BG2Tweaks mods I've used on and off the past couple of years. Fantastic work.

Heck, in my games the Holy Avenger already works as advertised, so I hesitate to add a mod that effectively 'nerfs' one of the premiere weapons in the game.
IA doesn't nerf Carsomyr. The Improved Carsomyr is WAY more powerful than the original one.

The sword doesn't work as advertised in the original game. IA not only fixes its bugs but also adds to its power once you upgrade the sword.

And of course, it is needless to add that IA is not a mere item-upgrade mod. It is a game enhancing mod with so many different features.

Hi Sikret, perhaps I missed something, was it changed to a 2d12 or something? IIRC from the readme, the upgrade to Holy Avenger makes a 2HSW that dispels on hit, does extra 1d6 to CE enemy, adds 50% to Magic Resist when equipped, and adds a couple of dispels to ability slots.

It's quite likely that I missed something, then, so what did I miss - in what way is it more powerful than the 'vanilla' description.

Oh, btw, I'd already be at least partway through your mod if it was offered a la carte, which is the bottom-line reason why I haven't installed/played it yet.

The Improved Holy avenger has 15% chance (per hit) to successfully dispel all types of protective abilities (even those which are not normally affected by remove magic). In other words, the Improved Carsomyr has 15% chance to cast "Spell Strike" + "Ruby Ray" + "Breach" + "Remove Magic" on the enemy per successful hit.

The original Carsomyr wouldn't even cast its pathetic Remove Magic successfully all the times. Now, the dispelling effect is WAY more effective. The only thing is that it has 15% chance to be activated per hit, because having it on every hit would make the sword overpowered.

The alleged additional +5 damage against CE enemies never worked in the original game. It works with the Improved version of the sword. And yes, the damage is also increased to d12 +5 (not 2d12).

As for your last remark, I have already explained repeatedly why IA cannot be divided into separate components at installation stage.

Cheers

Hey, that's cool.

I was just explaining why I haven't given it a try yet, not because of fussiness over a weapon or 2, but the one-size-fits-all approach; not a criticism, just my reason.

As for Carsomyr, I didn't say it worked in the original game, simply that it works just great in the game I play (i.e. with some basic mods, no total conversions or anything), and I would't want to have to pay big to get it to work as described in the vanilla game when I already have that now.

"DISPEL EFFECTS" - I see it in the information box for every hit by Keldorn (or, for the four days I kept her before slipping out while she was paying for drinks, Saerilith). It works, although I cannot recall what patch or mod fixed it in its "+5" state. Perhaps the Weimer Item Upgrade (though that doesn't sound right)?

So my original observation stands: in the I.Anvil mod, a player pays a substantial amount to improve Holy Avenger into a nerfed Carsomyr - one that's a pale imitation of its original glory, no more powerful than it's vanilla description (in fact, the upgrade makes it 85% less effective).

As for the part you describe about dispelling conditions beyond the ability of dispel magic (which even strips Stoneskins in my world), I'm intrigued, please tell me more! Otherwise you might want to consider that my characterization may not be flattering but it was very much accurate.

Anyway, not everyone will care about such mundane details, but my original respone was mainly to agree with Fel's point (apologies to whatever member I dissed if it wasn't Felinoid). Hey, I'm just another player who's posted maybe 5 times now, so take my comments for the little that they're worth.

I agree it's overpowered, but arguably balance is restored by being stuck in a single-class in a game where multi and dual classes reign supreme. The pally gets the fighter HLA, and the Summon Deva as an ability icon and carso, that's it.

SoM is also "overpowered", and I'd argue CFury most of all (or Crom Fyr, if you're not of the mind that Righteous Magic makes its main selling point redundant). A no save "slow" by FoA with a hit is possibly the most overpowered item. Remove or change those 4 items and it may still be lot's of fun - but it's not a game of BGII.

So my original observation stands: in the I.Anvil mod, a player pays a substantial amount to improve Holy Avenger into a nerfed Carsomyr - one that's a pale imitation of its original glory, no more powerful than it's vanilla description (in fact, the upgrade makes it 85% less effective).
This is not true.

Several protective abilities are not dispellable even by a corrected remove magic (done by any mod). Improved Carsomyr in IA has 15% chance to dispel everything (even those which are not dispellable by remove magic). Remove magic doesn't dispel everything the combination of "spell strike" + "Ruby Ray" + "Breach" can dispel. Hence, the Improved Sword is not a nerfed version of the original one (even after being fixed by a mod). It is actually WAY more powerful.

(even those which are not dispellable by remove magic).I'm extremely curious and interested as to what those might be. I'm always looking to improve my knowledge of the game, and nothing comes to mind, even the Lich immunity to spells lvl 1-5 doesn't protect against dispel, only SI:Abj protects from dispel as far as I can recall at the moment.


On a tangentially related subject, oddly enough, I avoid ugrading FoA to a +4 in TOB because instead of seing the slow effect with almost every hit I noticed markedly fewer "slows" when it dropped to the 1/3 chance of slow w/no save with the upgrade to +4. [assuming, of course, that I'm using FoA as one of my team's primary weapons.]

So, in my world, upgrading the FoA to +4 is a form of nerfing the original without a commensurate return in the form of damage or elemental benefit - sure, poison is nice, but very few creatures were already immune to all three of the fire/cold/electric elemental damage so the disrupt-spellcasting effect isn't substantially improved by the addition of poison to the mix. Otherwise, the upgrade to +4 adds only +2 damage to the min and max dam (+1 poison, +1 enchanted flail damage), at the cost of 2/3 chance to slow target with no save. The real improvement comes with the +5 that doubles each element's damage to +2.

Also, few creatures have the 'immune to all but +4 or better', so FOA +3 to FOA +4 is an example of an upgrade I wouldn't make. Same with your description of the "more powerful" Carsomyr (compared to what I now have), it's an upgrade I'd never voluntarily undertake and certainly not something I'd want to pay for.

So when I'm ready to play the I.Anvil mod, I'll have to seriously re-think my team, and whether I even want a Paladin (my fave, the Inquisitor), along for the journey -the dispel spell is too clunky, but the true seeings are nice, and with carso as an upgrade only dispelling around 1 hit out of 7, etc. etc.

[ October 24, 2006, 22:22: Message edited by: Tuttle ]

Improved Holy Avenger has 15% chance per hit to dispel the following protections altogether, while the original Carsomyr (even after fixing its remove magic) cannot dispel them at all:

Shield of the Archons
Minor Spell Deflection
Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Spell Immunity: Any school
Minor Spell Turning
Spell Shield
Globe of Invulnerability
Spell Deflection
Spell Turning
Spell Trap

@Sikret

Thanks for the information, interesting.

I'm also impressed by how well you support your mod.

You are welcome.

I'll be glad to offer information and/or technical support whenever I can be of any help.

You may also want to visit the mod's forum (http://forums.blackwyrmlair.net/index.php?showforum=99) where players constantly send their suggestions and requests for the next version of the mod.

Ok, based on the votes of the majority of players in this forum, I made the following changes to Robe of Vecna in my local version of IA (the forthcoming v4.0):

1- The robe is tweaked to grant less casting time bonus (2 instead of 4) but to grant better AC (2 instead of 5).

2- The robe has been removed from the shop. A very tough mage wears it now, but I won't say who and where. :)

3- The robe cannot be added to the game by cheating (neither through SK nor CluaConsole). Hence, the only way to have it is to find and defeat the mage who has the robe.

Question about a new option:

Do you want me to give the robe to a powerful mage who is randomly picked from a list of powerful mages in the game? In this way, each time you play Improved Anvil, you won't be sure where to look for the robe. In every new game, the robe may be with a different mage. What do you think?

Random mage would be good (meaning you would have to go and kill every spellcaster in the game... NICE!) but I don't get why you actually increased the AC???
It's not like the Robe wasn't powerful enough (what's the point in wearing an Archmagi robe anymore? Or being MC or Dual and wearing the Elvish chainmail that enables spellcasting).

I'm in favour of randomising it- the biggest problem with me getting through games of BGII is that I know where everything is, so changing stuff arounds gets a thumbs up from me.

As a similar idea, would it be feasible to have a list of powerful mages and a list of powerful mage items? You could then randomly allocate one of the items to each mage each new game. Just a thought- I'm no modder so I don't know if this is practical (I don't even know if it would be a popular idea).

On a side note: may I ask why the Robe cannot be cheated into the game? To me, it just seems an odd thing to actually bother doing.

Randomness ideas is cool beyond words, can you do it? It is very unique in BG2 type games though.

Agree the randomizing this is a great idea. Something that is probably worth exploring with other items as well.

I'm also in favor of reducing the bonus to casting time--I think this should make that robe "great," but not cheesily great. However, 2 ac seems a tad extreme. I mean, it's a robe. This AC rivals some of the better armors in the game... and would probably still allow a ring/amulet/cloak of protection to boot? There aren't even bracers of armor in the game that give this level of AC.

I could maybe see boosting the AC to 4.... perhaps.... to 3, but 2 just seems too good in my humble opinion.

How about a timed ability on the robe?

"Once per day the casting time of all spells is reduced by x for 5 rounds."

"Once per day the casting time of all spells of all characters is reduced by y for 1 round."

Or

"The lower your hp the higher the spellcasting bonus."

..ok that doesn't really fit here much but it would be neat when stoneskin acually changes only the skincolor and not all colors... kinda boring those all grey casters :7.

mmh sth else.. I am also kinda annoyed to whenever one of my guys dies I have to reequip all his stuff, is it possible to make all items "undropable/unchangeable/permanent" during fights? It would also make the game harder no helmet/ram-ring/shield switching in battle..

[ October 28, 2006, 20:42: Message edited by: Exor ]

Thanks for the inputs, everyone!

As for AC bonus:

I remember than any time I was playing the game with this robe, its AC bonus had looked rather pointless to me, because by that time I already had bracers of AC3. So I thought to myself: "Now that we are nerfing the robe's casting time modifier bonus, let's at least give more sense to its AC bonus."

As for randomization:

@Silverstar:
Yes, it is doable.

@Marceror:
Which other items in the game you think that may be worth cosnidering for this randmization program?

@Decados:

On a side note: may I ask why the Robe cannot be cheated into the game? To me, it just seems an odd thing to actually bother doing.
Well, it's a bit complicated and hard to explain. Existence of two robes of Vecna in the game may mess the Global variables and may cause serious problems. A cheater may cheat more than one Robe of Vecna to the game and then come to send false bug reports to forums without admitting that he has cheated. Then many hours of my time will be wasted to check whether the report is a genuine bug or just a result of cheating. As a second reason, Robe of Vecna is an ingredient for item upgrade. Now having two robes may lead to two upgraded robe which will mess things even further. My experience has shown that cheaters are not honest and usually deny that they have cheated. Hence, I may be faced with situations where I won't be sure whether the report is worth considering or just a cheater's babble. A third reason is to prevent triggering quests and adventures prematurely. A similar problem existed with "Judgement Day" sword and I also made it uncheatable to prevent starting a quest which is not supposed to start till late in TOB. A player may cheat the required item into the game and then appear with spoilers about the quest. Even worse, when the item is cheated into the game without doing the other quests which were needed to be completed, the final quest may start without all of the other Global variables being set to the right numbers. This can of course be fixed in different ways. I can add codes to check all the needed variables in addition to the existence of the item before the final quest starts (though it is much redundant work just to keep a cheater's game bugfree). But one other way is to make the item uncheatable altogether. Given all the previous reasons, I decided to make some items uncheatable.

Alright, I see what you mean now. If a cheater mucks up their game with bugs, I have no problems. However, if it ends up causing you hours of wasted effort then fair enough.

@Exor: I wouldn't agree with either idea, to be honest.

1) I'm against durations as they seem too short, especially considering the status of the Robe (if they were increased to a length that would make me use 'em others would say they are overpowered). Besides, I rarely can be bothered to use abilties with short durations in the middle of a fight- having it that way would put me off installing.

2) But then you'd never cast Vampiric Touch as it would make your subsequent spells slower! IMO, having a reason not to use the spell would be a bad thing as it doesn't see all that much use ATM- remember it is up against Skull Trap and Slow.

@Marceror:
Which other items in the game you think that may be worth cosnidering for this randmization program?There are several potential items that might be cool for this. A few that come to mind are Carsomyr, Gloves of Dex 18, ingredients for Crom Faeyr, etc. Pretty much, the items that a typical party is not going to want to miss in the game.

By doing this with several key items I think that some of the "ho hum, go here to get that item" is removed from the game, and there is a new element of freshness added for longtime veterans who know where basically everything is in the game. Not anymore you don't. So just do the quests that you enjoy or that make sense for how you're playing the game. And if you don't find what you're looking for, well, those items are out there somewhere. How determined are you to find them?

I like this idea but it shouldn't be taken too far... For instance Celestial Fury could be relocated in the Underdark, but if in the end this is just an incentive for the PC to go on a killing spree it may not be that good.
What would be the determining factor for choosing which character should be the recipient of these items? Characters the party is going to face anyway (Firkraag, Torgal, ...).

Very well, I accomplished the randomization program for Robe of Vecna. I guess you don't want to know even the list of possible recipients of the robe. Hence, I will not say anything.

What about the following items? Is any of them worth considering for the randomization program?

- Aeger's Hide
- Armor of the Hart
- Girdle of Hill Giant Strength
- Girdle of Frost Giant Strength
- Belt of Inertial Barrier
- Tansheron's Short Bow +3
- Fortress Shield +3
- Shield of Harmony
- Short sword of Mask +4
- Sling of Everard
- Rod of Smiting
- Staff of Rynn
- Blade of Roses
- Foebane +3
- Scarlet Ninja-to

Do we need a new poll (with multiple voting options)?

What about the Bracers of Dexterity Marceror mentioned? What about the elements that allow you to make the extra good weapons like Crom Fayr, the Equalizer, etc.
Just suggestions. By the way good point not giving us the list of NPCs... Just wondering if these NPCs are going to measure up and if the party will have to indulge in senseless slaughter to get them (by senseless I mean not justified from a RPing point of view, not NPC you would have to slaughter anyway).

This flail - Defender of Eastheaven (?) is also randomizable - I think.

@Shaitan
The flail is already removed from the shop in my local version of the mod (the forthcoming v4.0) and is with a very tough enemy. But yes, I can randomize it as well, if needed.

I guess I will start a new poll with giving the voters the option to vote for as many options as they want. Then, I will pick a few of the items which have the most votes and will randomize their locations.

@Caradhras
Yes, I had in mind the point you mentioned. I didn't pick creatures whose killing may be considered as an evil behavior.

Bracers of Dexterity is already heavily guarded in IA v3.0. I prefer to concentrate on randomizing the locations of items which are too easily available in shops.

This all sounds promising to me. I would caution not to remove all powerful magical items from shops in Athkatla. In a city as large and prominent as this, you'd expect to find some gems-- though such items are not likely to be cheap.