So, after a small chat at #sorcerers about a possible replacement for the Throne of Bhaal part of the Baldur's Gate Trilogy, we decided we could find an alternative ending to the Throne of Bhaal story, which left many unclear issues about Cyric and the domains of murder etc etc, and generally didn't give the fulfillment of the prequels (Baldur's Gate I, Shadows of Amn). I will take a leading part in the construction of the mod, offering my help in dialogs, areas, creatures, items, spells, kits, whatever you may imagine. Just a small piece of what I can do in the fields of area artwork below:

www.teambg.net/~mindflayer/toblur.jpg (http://www.teambg.net/~mindflayer/toblur.jpg)

So, what I would like is your input on what the alternate storyline should be! Generally, all input will be grately appreciated in almost any field of modding. The mod will take place in the area between Athkatla and Amkethran, so we could include all areas from Shadows of Amn again, and I would also like to add a lot of new areas in Tethyr.

As I said in the chat, Epic classes would be very cool :cool: I'll think about it some more, but some encounters with Minor Gods should be possible. Choosing sides with one group/God and getting extra powers/spells/abilities. It should be pretty easy to get that into the story.

I'm looking forward to this already!

I wouldn't get rid of the entire TOB storyline as parts of it (the battle of Saradush, the pocket plane) are worth keeping. But if you do...


I like the encounters with minor Gods idea. And I'd also like to introduce a few epic level characters like Elminster, Khelben, the Simbul, etc, as possible allies/enemies of the PC. After all, if the PC and his cronies, from an evil point of view, are running around the Sword Coast causing trouble, it's not likely Elminster is just going to stand aside and let them. He'd send some henchmen to look into the business, and if they proved unequal to the challenge, probably come and have a look himself. Maybe the final fight therefore for an evil party, instead of battling Melissan and the Five, could be against Elminster, Khelben and a few of their allies.

For a good party, maybe the PC and co get targeted for death by Cyric himself and spend the game getting steadily closer to a confrontation with the new God of Death.

Well. I like Cyric. He should kill CHARNAME. Kill him dead and take the domain of Murder permenantly.

Even if CHARNAME is good, if s/he choosed god(dess)hood, s/he should conflict with Cyric. After all, CHARNAME would more than likey become allied with Mystra (especially if CHARNAME is a Mage). And we all know how much Cyric loves Mystra. :p

But if CHARNAME is evil, s/he would definately conflict with Cyric because CHARNAME would inhert the murder portfolio, taking it from Cyric.

(Now that's an inheritence. I got a few cermanic houses and animals when my grandfather passed away. CHARNAME gets God(dess) of Murder.)

Well I can't talk for anyone else, but I'd certainly support it....

List of possible god-encounters:

Cyric: speaks for itself, he wants you out of the way, so you'll meet loads of his followers. It's possible they pretend to be someone else and send you away on almost impossible quests to get rid of you if they can't do it themselves. Kelemvor: Is pretty pissed at Cyric and he'll want some kind of revenge. He might be reserved in helping you, since you are an unknown factor. So you'll be send on quests by him/his followers to determine your true alignment and intentions. You'll be rewarded with items, spells and maybe a new NPC, like one of his clerics for example. Mystra: Again a huge enemy of Cyric. She might have less reservations in helping you. Again powerful items/spells of course and maybe an Epic level mage NPC Iyachtu Xvim: Trying to expand his power, he might trick you into helping him get to Cyric. He'll probably betray you and leave you in a rather unpleasant situation, but before that you might get some quests and items out of it. Mask: Another enemy of Cyric, pretty pissed at losing so much of his power, he'll want revenge. More in a sneaky way, with loads of intrigue. Mainly a thief option of course. Torm/Tyr: Maybe a weird option, but it's something for the more good-aligned characters, like paladins. It will create some problems regarding your heritage and background, but they/he might help you get rid of the taint for good.
I picked these Deities because most have some history with Cyric and would be interested in the outcome of your battle and can be easily linked with classes. Of course we need to work this out further so if anyone has something to add or anything, please do.

I suppose the problem with having the party encounter Gods is that even at 40th level, the odds of getting better of a genuine God is practically zilch. In 3E AD&D*, the Gods tend to have somewhere in the region of 60 or more character levels so even a weak God would have no trouble beating the hell out of a 40th level party.

Although the avatars of Gods are another matter. Several (including Bhaal) were killed in the Time of Troubles and their powers aren't that overwhelming that characters in a TOB conversion would be able to get the better of them.

* Okay, I know BG2 used the 2E AD&D rules but I'm just illustrating a point.

Just because you became a god doesn't mean you become the god of Murder. It's possible you have no beef with Cyric at all (if you're good/neutral).

Evil however will probably have beef with Cyric, wanting his murder portfolio. That isn't always the case though, your portfolio should be determined by your alignment, so you might have to think of a few virtues for the PC to be god of.

Does anyone know exactly 'how' someone becomes a god? In order to become one you have to have a portfolio, but are the number of portfolio's limited? Methinks the primary god you're going to have to deal with is Ao. He will be the one who decides your portfolio.

OK, here is something I never quite 'got'. Bhaal was killed right? It wasn't just his avatar? But then again, if Bhaal was killed, then surely so was Mask?

In 3E AD&D*, the Gods tend to have somewhere in the region of 60 or more character levelsThey do not. Reread the Deities and Demigods source book if you doubt me. The greatest gods have 30 character levels or so. Of course, that translates to about 60 in 2e. For reference, a full party of level 40s could probably beat up a single level 60 character, but it would be a tough fight.

Okay, I probably got the levels for your "average" God wrong, but even if the God is level 60 and your party is level 40, there's still very little chance you're going to get the better of him. After all, what self-respecting God is going to dirty his hands fighting some mortals? He'd send in a few dozen high level henchmen first of, and if the party get the better of them *then* he might deign to fight them himself.

Well, according to Mindflayer, it's possible to make some changes and get the max level up to 50, after that it's hard-coded.

If it's going to be a TC then would it necessarily have to be set in Amkethran? I woulden't mind seeing a new area like Icewind Dale or Kara-Tur (the latter may be difficult unless there is a game I haven't heard of in that setting) although this may add a huge chunk of file size to download.

And what about NPC's? should it be possible to join up with the likes of Elminster or Drizzt or the evil alternatives (don't know any evil characters)?

I realize that people like Drizzt would have their own goals but seriously, if you are an epic level character, and something as major as this is going down, then I doubt Drizzt would just sit back and watch everything fall apart with him doing nothing, it just doesnt sound like his style, but then I know nothing about him. In any case I don't really care if he becomes an NPC or not, and I feel quite attached to the original NPC's I'd never exclude Imoen for example, or Anomen, even though he can be a pain in the arse, he's very usful, and has one of the most developed backrounds character wise.

The Forgotten Realms is full of really powerful evil NPCs who could be the party's major enemies in a total conversion. How about Halaster Blackcloak or Szass Tamm? Or maybe some of the archwizards of Shade? Some of them could make a challenging encounter for an enemy capable of beating the end of TOB.

If I was playing as an evil party, I'd love to see a final encounter which pitted you against Elminster. As far as non-God characters go, he's pretty much the toughest you can get.

New joinable NPCS? Drizzt! Drizzt! Drizzt! Okay, he's overpowered for a character of his level but maybe he could start several levels lower than the rest of the party which would help balance things out. Or for an evil party, Artemis Entreri.

How about the epic spells though? I don't know any of them and it would probably not be possible to change the spell book, and imo it's overpowered to just put a couple on each level since you could just use all of them and ignore the lower level ones so how would it go? erase all the level one spells and replace it with epic level ones? I don't think their would be many people using magic missle at that level but I don't suppose that would mean getting rid of every thing would it?

I don't imagine adding a 10th page to the spellbook would be an impossibility for epic level spells (says someone who readily admits he knows nothing about these things).

Or maybe epic spells could be accessed via the special abilities button.

So, this thread has given a good start for the possible replacement for TOB. Perhaps it would be nice if we placed the mod in Calimshan (Calimport mainly), the islands nearby, and even the Jungles of Chult for the end.
If we manage to assemble a good story, we could easily set up a small site + community for it in the summer and get it started. :)

I was thinking (for once) that maybe the proper Demogorgan can be included and not just his avatar, but the real deal?

Personally I don't see him as helping eith good or evil characters seeing as he is the prince of demons and a loner type enemy with his own demon and other abyssial allies to help him (although I don't personally see him as the type to ask for help even if he was facing Ao himself).

I always thought the Demogorgon you fought in Watcher's Keep was the real deal. He was certainly tough enough.

I agree he wouldn't ask the party for help, though he might order them.

Mindflayer, that's exactly what I was thinking. I would love to see Calimport as the setting, not only because it is a larger city and busier than any so far seen in the saga, but because I've read Salvatore's books. Imagine the quests available to a thief!? And besides, what better way to bring Entreri into the story? :cool:

As for a possible battle setting: Pandemonium. Hellooooo Cyric! And Elminster, literally the greatest of all mortal spellcasters should be a very big part of the storyline. I even had a brief lapse of sanity and thought about Elminster as an NPC, but don't worry, coming back now, slowly but surely.

I must say, this whole project/mod is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long while. I've never felt that there was enough emphasis on the fact that the player character is the child of a friggin' god... It just seems to me that something is very wrong when one of the NPCs is better than the player character. I'm a demi-god, for cryin' out loud. I'm the son of Murder!

So why should Sendai, Balthazar, and (especially) Irenicus have all their crazy special abilities, while I get... Call Upon Holy Might? Cure Light Wounds? Larloch's Minor Drain? Wow, I cure 9 hitpoints, or steal 4. Beat that Jon...

Yes, we get all the weapons and armor, but that's because we need them just to be able to meet them on even terms. I like mages, and a demigod who practices magic should, I think, be able to tap some special powers greater than the ability to only partially heal a goblin.

In any case, I think what I'm trying to get to is that I would love to see divine intervention. Sometimes being the pawn can be damn fun!

To tell the truth, the reason for proposing the idea of this mod is the fact that I never really felt Throne of Bhaal was the third part of the trilogy, not until it was the end when I chose to become a deity. The game was not as fulfilling as the previous two, and one major reason was the fact that it didn't allow much movement in Tethyr, as BG2 did with Amn and BG1 with Sword Coast.
What I thought about Calimport is the fact that it's a good place for many classes (especially the rogues), and since the BG trilogy was always moving souther and souther (Sword Coast - Amn - next to Calimshan), perhaps the setting would be better in the third of the Empires of Sand.
The Demogorgon issue is a bit unclear at the moment. If we are to move the setting to Calimshan, then Watcher's Keep will most likely not exist. We'll see once it's a fixed idea of the mod. Noc Nomad and I thought of a basis of the plot, that includes the eradication of the other bhaalspawn, the start of a conflict with Cyric and a way to get him reduced to reasonable (level 40) power.

What the hell are you guys talking about Drizzt for? He's a 'local' hero. He doesn't get involved with large scale things such as gods and whatnots, not to mention he's a measly level 16. Elminter's involvement is acceptable, as well as any of Mystra's chosen but Drizzt, although a loved character, is still a minor player in the realms.

Rather than using well known characters, make your own. Shoving a character into a story because that character is 'cool' is a sure sign of a bad/forced plot.

Who says Watcher's Keep has to stay in its current position? If the location of the game moves, move the Keep as well!

Well the first solution that comes to mind for me is this.

Depending on whether or not this mod will be seperated from the SoA ending and ToB intro or not, you still have the pocket plane to use to your advantage, so if this will be set in Calimport this could take care of the problem of not been able to fit WK on the game map, because hell why not? it can transport you wherever you want, or wherever you need to be whether it's the local supermarket or the moon.

And about NPC's why focus on the well developed ones like Elminster? he might be uber-cool as well as Drizzt and powerful, but how about bringing old BG NPC's like Kivan and Shar-teel back? I use Kivan and Shar-teel as an example because (other then the fact that they are cool and kick arse) they don't seem to have much of a backround or history so it gives a lot of space to put in some original ideas, and besides if you have Elminster as an NPC you may as well sit back and just let him do all the work.

And Mod NPCS like Kelsey, Tashisa and Sime? well that for the creators to decide if they want them to have a part in it I know, but it would be interesting to see what they'd say and do all the same ;)

I thought of that option, but the mod authors would have to agree first, and there are other problems too with including mod NPCs. For example, a possible banter between Kelsey (by far the best mod NPC ever, in my opinion) and Tashia, the authors would want to have their NPCs look better than other's. There are of course other problems with NPCs for such a high level mod I had not thought at first: NPCs would have to be level 17+, which in other words translates to well known NPCs. A possible solution to this would be including the NPCs from earlier Baldur's Gate (like Kivan and Shar-Teel, as Casey mentioned), who actually already fit the plot.
The problem with Watcher's Keep could be solved by moving the dungeon to Calimshan.

About the high level Characters like Elminster: I have to say one must be extremely cautious dealing with such characters in the plot, since many fans (of Elminster in this case) would become disatisfied. For example, if Elminster were to be killed by the main Character, most people would be shouting that the main Character is overpowered, Elminster's abilities lower than normal, etc etc. I have to say though that Drizzt is a bit low levelled to be included in an adventure for levels 17-30.

I think the safest way to use the characters that are already powerful and well liked such as Elminster would be to give them a non-direct role in the mod, but they could still choose sides and have an impact on the story line while steering clear of anything that some stupid rabid fanboys would go nuts over and complain non-stop about it.

Just some dialog or some advice from Elminster or something like it, with some behind the sceens action going on to affect CHARNAMES future in a way, would be playing it safe I'd think.

For example, a possible banter between Kelsey (by far the best mod NPC ever, in my opinion) and Tashia, the authors would want to have their NPCs look better than other's.They'd want their NPCs well characterised, but there's a difference. Only Tashia absolutely has to get the better of other NPCs in every single interaction.

Just some dialog or some advice from Elminster or something like it, with some behind the sceens action going on to affect CHARNAMES future in a way, would be playing it safe I'd think. Yeah, that was kinda what we had in mind too. Actually having the PC fight with Elminster isn't really a good idea. More of a guiding role would suit him a lot better.

Well, if this project really comes to reality -highly doubt it-, I would like to see the new ToB as:
More side-stories, like in SoA. Heck, it would not even require any new areas, just adding more people to Amkethran and making it a true "city" would do.
[New Dialogue, modified Creature files, new scripts]
--- More story-like banters with NPC's.
[New DLG]
--- Battles. The PC is a ûber-level demi-god, owning several super-rare items in a world where even +2 weapons are considered "mighty." Still, every enemy you meet and fight has at least +3 equipment, hits almost every time, and in other ways makes you feel like all those levels had been for naught. => There should be lots of "cannon-fodder" (that can actually run away ;) ) and some unique monsters with enhanced stats. For this purpose, there should be some organisation opposing you, just like in SoA. Now, the character just fights against persons, at times meeting their underlings. It should not be so; he is fighting against 'the Army of the Five.'
[New DLG, new action scripts, modified CRT]
--- About the plot. In general, there should be, from the start, several routes to deal with the Five. Players start from the forest, meeting at the Plane, challenges, Saradush, fleeing from the Saradush just before it's destroyed... Then a choise which nemesis to pursue first.

Sendai's Enclave and Forest of Mir/Marching mountains could stay as they are, even though Sendai's enclave could use a few side-plots (the lich, for example, or the slaves). Something else than "rush in, kill everything, repeat."

Basically the same with Abazigal's Lair. For example: a different meeting at the gates, and Abazigal's son could fight together with the other dragon at the inner gates.

Illasera, however, should be completely remade. She could be made a vampire necromancer who had just "revived" Saradush as an undead city (she is a high-level NPC, remember?), keeping her home in the old throne room. Textures should be changed, though; to something more destroyed and gray.
[New texture, new scripts, new DLG, modified CRT]
--- The final showdown should be completely remade. Frankly, I find it incredibly boring; she doesn't even follow AD&D rules, being immune almost to everything, throwing double Spell-triggers and cheating in other ways too. Besides, the arena is too small to be the battleground for an epic fight. When two demi-gods meet, there should be practically *armies* of summons, monsters, minions, wizards, demons, and everything between the Abyss and Pandemonium -not cramped to a small arena.

It should be a single-fight too, with attitude "all or nothing" with no afterward coughs and splutters. ("Nooooo! OMG, I have been killed! I will have my revenge! *Cough* *Splutter* *Dead*" :rolleyes: )
[Recycled/New arena, new scripts, new DLG]
--- Tests at the plane could be perhaps a bit more story driven. How exactly fighting "redepmtion" makes the PC more "good?"
[Re-writing and adding new DLG, maybe changing action scripts]
--- Enemies. Same as already made, but with enhanced abilities and a new name :p Just read a bit of AD&D Monster manual for suitable ones, with unchanged stats.
[Modifying old CRT files and saving them as new ones, placing to field]
--- Watchers keep should be included to the plot. Maybe the Army of the Five is intending to release the Demon Prince in case he might aid them, or maybe he has already broken out. Also, destroying one of the Five could require some ancient spell, needed from the Keep. Just an idea here. :hmm:
--- Ending. Give a chance to take both godhood and lover :D
[Re-write ending DLG]
That is, likey they say; my 2 cents ;) Might be interested to contribute another two as dialog/story/journal writer (sorry, not interested to script/compile events)

[ March 06, 2004, 18:03: Message edited by: Virne ]

Wow, that wasn't 2 cents, that was more like a hundred bucks. Good ideas.

Virne, it's going to be set in Calimport remember?

Now that I think of it how will the five be involved in it? if Sendai, Balthazar and Abazigal have thier own lairs, then how will they be included in the mod if it is set in Calimport? Maybe they could have a tracker spying on you and, eventually group together and take you all on together as a group, because if it's going to go beyond the usual ToB abilitys than it would make more sense to have a party vs party fight instead of having you slaughter them one at a time.

And I agree that if WK will still be included that it should have more use to the plot for been their.

Personally I don't see any reason why the lairs of Abazigal, Sendai and Balthazar can't be moved. They're not part of the official Forgotten Realms world (at least I'm assuming they're not) and so there's no reason why they couldn't be relocated to the land surrounding Calimport.

Why set it in Calimport? Wouldn't it make more sense to improve/expand ToB using what's already available?

Bleh, same as what SimDing0 said.
---
True, but I'm thinking the whole, BIG job here. Even if someone manages to put together a team of dedicated people, it would require a lot of time to program/script/write/draw everything from scratch. I know for a fact, that most fan-made projects tend to last only as long as the makers see it advancing, thus recycling old areas the best they can should be considered as an better option than creating it anew.

It costs millions to gaming companies, no? ;)

To tell the truth, I don't think the "5" should be present in TOB at all... For example, why would a LG monk want to ally with a drow and a dragon, and why would they all ally with Illasera, who can't move her feet for move than 5 minutes without dying. And after all, why wouldn't they realise that Melissan wanted something more than just... help them out of the goodness of her heart. Overall, TOB's plot didn't cause much excitement.

Maybe the Five could be joinable NPCs. I admit their motivations in TOB didn't make a whole lot of sense but perhaps this could be fixed. Give them an actual reason to work together, or, better still, have them fighting amongst each other and the PC siding with whoever offers him the best deal.

I think it would be great if the TC emphasized the stealth aspects of the player party. I mean, a PP is only 4-6 characters or so, not an army. From a RP standpoint, even a high-level party wouldn't take on an entire army on a battlefield, especially a sword coast army which would probably have a number of high-level commanders of its own, as that would be suicide. For example, I could only justify the Yaga Shura battle as a kind of insertion and assassination operation, with the PP sneaking through enemy lines at a time the enemy was fully engaged with the defenders of Saradush, taking out enemies behind the lines only when they had to to reach Yaga Shura, and then taking him out. If an entire army were aware of your presence, and solely focused on eradicating you, I'd like to think you'd be dead (say from a combined massive catapult artillery assault, thousands of coordinated archers, magical attacks, etc)

That being said, it would be fun to have an opportunity or two to show just how powerful the PP has become. Rather than making every mercenary in ToB and his grandmother a 9th level fighter with a full assortment of +3 equipment, it would be fun to wade through hordes of low level, BG1 type enemies. This could even be a fun programming challenge: just how many enemies (fodder) can the IE handle on screen at one time without bogging down?

Just my two cents...

Actually, wading through several hundred low level enemies might be interesting. I wonder how many 1st level NPCs a character of 20th level could kill before they got the better of him?

Hundreds, and I don't see any fun in a massacre like that. Unless, of course, they would often fail their save vs. fear (like lv.1's always do :D ) and run away -scripted to disappear when out of sight.

"OMG, he killed Kenny!"
"You bastards!"
"Eh... Kyle... I think we should run for it."
"Good idea fat-ass."
"I'm not fat! I'm BIG BONED!"
"Ha-ha!"
*Berserk*

Well the higest level elite guards and all that are in this setting (or so I'm told) is level 3-4 so if you wanted to make it realistic by lowering the levels that much then against a level 25+ party of 6 it would take something like in the thousands to bring them down, if it's even possible at all for them, great for imporving you're kill count numbers but not much else, remember Shaugin city? they were all level 2 and 3's it was no fun killing them even at that lower level of power and just with a single character as well.

More low level characters is a good idea. It might actually make deathblow worth something. On the whole 'not being able to take on an army' thing I think it 'would' be possible. If you've read 'The Lone Drow' by Salvatore [spoilers] the Orc leader is fitted with nigh invulnerable armor, even over his eyes (glass-steel or something). Not even dwarven crafted mithril battle-axes could hurt him. Considering your characters are fitted in armor made of dragon scales and sometimes +6 enchantment I doubt Fighter Bob's plain longsword is going to do much.

Why move to Calimport? Honestly... why? If 'why not' is your only answer then don't bother.

Well the higest level elite guards and all that are in this setting (or so I'm told) is level 3-4I doubt the highest level elite guards were as low as level 3-4. I mean, that's practically starting out adventurer material and hardly elite in any sense of the word. I'd guess levels 9-12 would be more appropriate for elite guards, with maybe the real toughies coming in at level 15 or so. Although saying that it's unlikely someone of level 15 would be acting as a guard in any event. You don't spend years adventuring yourself around the world only to end up serving someone else as a menial guard.

As for how many low level characters it would take to bring down a party of 25th level, I wouldn't have said thousands. Let's face it, even 5th level mages can cast some pretty decent spells - Cloudkill, Haste, Fireball, etc - which are effective against high level players. Half a dozen 5th level mages hitting a 25th level PC with fireballs would be devastating.

Even in hand-to-hand combat, it's likely that a few dozen low level NPCs could beat a 25th level party. After all, my solo thief of level 7 killed Sarevok, Angelo, Tazok and Semaj who were all considerably higher level than he was. A few snares in the right place, some decent spells and a few critical backstabs and even characters of 25th level could be in trouble.

David the trouble is getting the computer ai good enough to do that type of thing, it wouldent be easy to program that well and that specific.

The problem with this lower-level horde overcoming a 25th level party is how are they supposed to actually hurt them? Half a dozen, 2 dozen, I don't care how many mages are casting fireballs at me, if I put on that ring there, and maybe use this scroll here, and oh yes, there's my armor itself, and fire ain't got nothin' on me.

A level 25 party will at least have a cloak of mirroring, the reflection shield (reflects missile weapons), insane armor, insane weapons, and insane resistances and spells/abilities. I don't see how even a hundred low level mages and fighters could accomplish anything but suicide. Mages are useless against scrolls of protection from magic, albeit there are very few to have. Since we're talking low level enemies, some fireshields, blade barriers, auras of flaming death, spell deflections, stoneskins and mantles, and they'll kill themselves on your defenses. All the while, you're laughing maniacally and tossing out death like a slot machine hitting jackpot.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it all depends on what low level we're talking about here. I personally think that there are too many area of effect spells, and that fighters are too pumped up by level ~25, to be brought down by level sixers.

If enemies were as intelligent as the person playing the PC then a group of 6 6th level NPCs could bring down a 25th level PC no problem.

Okay, the 25th level PC has got the ability to cast lots of spell protections on him, right? What’s the best way to deal with a powerful enemy with spell protections? Hit ‘em with pierce shield (cast from a scroll) and dispel magic, or better still just run around till the spell protections wear off. My solo thief killed Irenicus, the most powerful mage in the entire game, by the cheesy tactic of running away every time Jon put up his spell protections, waiting for them to wear off then coming back and hitting him one. It took a long time to bring him down but it worked in the end.

If NPCs were this intelligent, they could cause real problems for the PC. Instead of charging him while his spell protections are up and getting well and truly slaughtered, they should run away and keep on running, only striking when the spell protections are wearing out. Properly handled, low level NPCs could be a read threat for the PC.

Well you realise that very few low-level mages would join an army. They generally would come out of their academy at level 7-10 or sometimes even later. The mages would have penetration spells and would be smart enough to use them. However the low level fighters that you would be slaughtering would fail their saves and run screaming in terror after your party of 4-6 has killed about 20 or so without a scratch to show for it. I mean, hell, who wants to be number 21 or 22 that gets dicked?

Okay, I want to refute 6th level guys taking on 25th level guys. Here goes.

If enemies were as intelligent as the person playing the PC then a group of 6 6th level NPCs could bring down a 25th level PC no problem. Are they? No, they're not.

I suppose I should have clarified, the computer has no human mental faculties. That would be a good scripting job, what with humans able to anticipate computer strategies, and not vice versa. I just noticed what casey said above, and it's true, we're talking about a scripted enemy, not a human opponent. A key word here is anticipation. If I see a mage casting a spell that has a red ball of magic while he is casting it, I can be pretty sure that it's an invocation/evocation, and the same goes for a purple ball and conjuration. In any case, I can wait for a mage to start a spell, then equip staff of the magi, and his spell is fizzled. I then cast my own spell. Or any other trick, for that is the beauty that separates us from scripted enemies. We can thwart just about anything they come up with.

So let's take a look at the offensive spells available to a 6th level mage, shall we?

1. Dispel Magic. Wow, that's useless. Against a 25th level caster, there's what, a 1% chance of dispelling? Same with Remove Magic.

2. Spell Thrust. Now we're talking a spell that can actually dispel. But what's this? Only up to level 5 protections will be dispelled? Oh darn, there goes my 25th level mage's minor spell deflection...

3. This leaves us with only one spell, Secret Word. This can dispel one protection up to 8th level. All good, but what about a spell shield? That cancels one casting. And this 25th level mage likely has more protection spells than a 6th level caster has removals.

And I just remembered: Immunity to Abjuration... I rarely used that spell, so somone correct me if I'm wrong, but does that prevent abjuration spells from affecting me? Spells such as Secret Word? Hmm...

Now for the defense of these low level enemies.

1. A level 6 mage recieves only 3 skins from Stoneskin. A 25th level fighter will eat through that like a hot knife through butter.

2. As for fireshields, fighters at 25th level just don't care.

3. Magical-wise, they've simply got nothing to hold off a 25th level mage for long, plus fighters are providing enough of a hassle.

Now for the 25th level party's side. The use of even a select few spells destroys the idea of level 6ers taking on level 25ers.

Anything less than or equal to level 8 is vulnerable to DEATH SPELL. So we'd need at least level 9, which kind of take away some of the purpose of a low level horde.

Abi Dalzim's hurts. Then bring in Dragon's Breath and Comet. Bye bye everybody.

I don't really know how we got on this part of the topic anyway, but to sort of sum things up, in the game that we're talking about here, no group of level sixers under computer scripting is going to defeat a party of level 25 led by a human hand.

[ March 09, 2004, 04:28: Message edited by: Davaeorn ]

All perfectly true, Davaeorn, but as I said above:

If enemies were as intelligent as the person playing the PC then a group of 6 6th level NPCs could bring down a 25th level PC no problem.I said if the NPCs were as intelligent as the PC, *then* they'd be able to take down a PC of 25th level. Of course, no scripted NPCs of level 6 are going to get the better of a 25th level PC.

Turning it around, if you had a party of 6 characters of 6th level and you were facing a 25th level NPC, would you be able to defeat him?

Turning it around, if you had a party of 6 characters of 6th level and you were facing a 25th level NPC, would you be able to defeat him? As a matter of fact this doesnt mean anything, because no matter how powerful an enemy you're against they are ALWAYS limited by ai scripts, 6 level 6 characters player controled would never get the better of say a sorcerer or F/M player controled character assuming everyone is expirienced and knows what they are doing.

The difficulty of an AI is only limited by how meticulous and how much time is put to the character and scripts, and even then it's almost impossible to make them "smart"

I disagree. As I said above, my 7th level thief got the better of Sarevok, Angelo, Tazok and Semjar. Sarevok was 15th level, the others were 10th or higher. Realistically, any one of them should have slaughtered my thief without too much trouble. Yet I was able to kill them all and though it was very, very hard it was also possible.

So it stands to reason that a group of 6 characters of 6th level could get the better of a 25th level NPC. After all, I once played BG2 through without levelling up just to see how far I could get and my 7-8th level party brought down Irenicus himself, all 29 levels of him.

Well I hate to say this but if I versed you in a PvP against your solo thief and I had a party of that level I could kick your ass six ways from sunday, let alone an ai controled computer.

Er... what? You seem to be proving my point, which was that if you had intelligent NPCs of low level they'd bne able to defeat a far higher level computer-instructed NPC.

Or did you mean something else?!?!??

david w, I think what we are trying to say is that computer controlled opponents will never match up to a human. It's not possible for those level 6ers you talk about defeating the PC party post-ToB since a human will always control the PC party.

Besides, I doubt even 12 level 6ers could defeat a level 25 fighter. Why? Deathblow.

Yes, exactly what Abomination said.

And yeah, I was thinking more about the mage's side of the battle, but fighters and thieves have their own tricks. Clerics are mostly defensive, but that's quite a good thing to have in a party vs party battle.

But.... if those NPCs are smart enough, they will be gating in Pit Fiends and Baalors to deal the crap out of the PC characters, just what I would do if some punk came up to me and asks for a fight, get a demon to answer his call, make it three, just to be on the safe side. And prepare a few more spells to cripple that rogue PC. And Pit-Fiends, never forget Pit-Fiends.... :D

Zephur, how could NPC controlled hordes (single digit levels) gate in pit fiends? That spell is far too high for them. Besides, since when has a level 25 party ever had problems with Pit Fiends?

An unarmed Aerie at 25th level could handle a Pit Fiend in melee.

I still think Saradush-style off-screen catapults are the way to go... I don't care how many pit fiends your high level party could wade through (of course, in true BG2 style, all supplied to you in easy-to-digest groups of 6 or less), I'm sure you had your party running for cover first thing in Saradush... And I still think the apparent power of the BG2 player party comes from the fact that you never have to take on too many opponents at one time...

[Edit: ]
To get back to the original topic, and not just the one aspect of high level battles, here are a few ideas/suggestions:

I wonder if the original ToB events could still take place, though in an abbreviated and modified form, either before or after the TC. It would seem like a waste to not take advantage of all of the characters, voice acting, levels etc in ToB.

One of the modifications could be to tone down the experience. Am I the only one to feel that leveling up happened too quickly in ToB? I never felt like I had a chance to explore all of the HLAs and spells in ToB, because I was always gaining new ones before I even had a chance to play with all the old. I think it would be more fun if the progress were slower in ToB and the TC, so you would have a chance to explore all of these abilities.

I agree with earlier posts that it would be great to have access to the SoA areas in the TC. It seems to me that the TC would be a good opportunity to explore the growing influence of charname on the sword coast, both for good and ill. By the end of SoA, charname is uber powerful and wealthy, and almost certainly (in)famous throughout the realms. One could imagine something like pumped-up post-SoA stronghold quests: a fighter could for example use D'Arnise hold to rise up the ranks of the nobility, and could perhaps even command armies; a thief could expand the control of his or her guild to other cities, etc.

One of the strange things about ToB to me was how anonymous charname was, slumming around pissant desert cities as though still low level.

If the (modified) events of ToB were tacked on at the end of the TC, it would be interesting to build them into something truly apocolyptic, forcing charname and party to leave their positions of power for one last final quest (and what could be more startling than finding out that you have your own special place in hell, as it were.) If the (modified) ToB happened before the TC, you would not only be super powerful in the realms, but would also have certainly drawn the attention of the gods, as earlier posts have suggested. More of a run-in with Cyric seems in order. And one would finally have a chance to use all of those cool Bhaal abilities, for example, you barely had a chance to use in ascension...

[ March 11, 2004, 21:30: Message edited by: Bion ]

Just to build on the idea above, it would be cool if each of the five had their own faction with which your PC could side. Of course, one of them would have to be neutral(maybe Illasan?) for neutral characters, but Balthazar could cover good chars and the others would be for each version of evil(lawful, neutral, chaotic). Once you choose a bhaalspawn to side with, their base becomes akin to your stronghold in BGII SoA, with side-quests and other stuff.

And I'd reccomend some other things too, like maybe saving the people of Saradush by putting them in your pocket plane(read that on a board somewhere, I don't take credit for it) if your PC is good. That would definetly make the plot more intresting and believable, and add a good role-play component.

Another cool thing to do would be to choose whether to spare the members of the five when you are about to kill them, you know, add some dialogue, some explanations etc... You can show your mercy.

What ToB needs is a big city like Amn, I kept thinking that as I played it. Saradush kind of sucks and Amethkran is hella boring. I want some temples, stores and sidequests!

That's my two cents.

Completely agree that TOB allowed you to level up far too quickly. Levelling up in BG1 and SOA happened very, very slowly. Often you could spend hours (of actual time) playing the game without any of your characters gaining a single level. Even a soloist seemed to take forever to move up through the levels.

Yet in TOB you seem to be gaining a new level, and a new ability, after almost every fight.

The XP given for some of the fights is downright ridiculous. The duergar beserkers you fight in Sendai's enclave are worth 12000 XP each. Why? A couple of hits and they're gone. A party of around level 30 (which is what you'll be at that stage) will just wade through them and probably gain a million XP in the process. Enemies as easy as this shouldn't give such massive amounts of XP when you kill them.

So maybe a way round this would have to be found. Either half XP awards given (not a favourite of mine) or just increase how much XP is needed to advance a level. Move the gap between XP levels from 200000 to 500000 and the later stages of the game would be a real challenge as the party would be approaching them at a far lower level and have access to far fewer of the HLA.


As for allying yourself with the Five? Nice idea. I kind of wish I'd thought of that myself.

Although this topic has reached 60 reples (!), the only conclusion that I have drawn is that everybody has his own view of what the third part of the trilogy should be. This is really getting confusing...

Ask 100 people for their replies and you'll get 100 different responses. It's often the way these things go.

What trilogy are you talking about.

@mind flayer: well, at least you know there's interest! If you build a TC, you won't have a problem finding people to play it...

In the end, my advice is simply to be strategic. A TC is a *huge* project of course, and the more you can figure out ways to use work that's already been done, the easier it will be. Recycling Athkatla for the TC seems like a good idea to me; with the addition of new sidequests, with townspeople reacting to you like a famous, heroic, or downright freightening and scary figure, etc., it would seem like a whole new area. And who, while playing ToB, hasn't wished they could visit Athkatla again? Developing Calimshan would also be a cool project, and I'd love to see it, but it would be alot of work! Maybe we could have both, but you'd need a pretty big and dedicated team...

Hmmmm... If this gets done, it will easily be the best MOD thingy out there.

Could you import monster graphics from PS, or anything else? I know you can import IWD2 Graphics: I just slaughtered a bunch of treants(sp?) from IWD2...

And, if possable, you could make it so that 'overpowered' weapons wouldn't be so overpowered: lvl 60(?) enemys with uber-gear, V.S. you, who have to fight those impossable powerful foes to get over powered Items... And you could (hopefully) increase the xp cap so you can go very high indeed. Elmister? Bah! CHARNAME!

I don't know much about level design, but could the textures from Athkatla be re-used to create Calimshan, it would save a lot of time and still look very nice. Calimshan would be very cool to visit in ToB

Better still, would it be possible to re-use the landscapes from games like IWD 1 & 2 as well BG 1 & 2 to add a bit of variety to Calimshan? If so, you could well end up with a TC which is larger than the original game.

Sarevok - The BG Trilogy of course. Throne of Bhaal was intended for BG3, but something went wrong and it ended up 2,5 (!)

I could use Athkatla, and Baldur's Gate I's graphics, but IWD1 and IWD2 graphics are a bit out of the question, since they are snowwy (out of climate).
As for textures, I got lots of them, so I doubt it would be tough for me to build up Calimport in 3dsmax. The real problem is finding the time to build such a large project.

The largest completed mod is TDD which from what I hear is rubbish and it's 300MB, SoA with ToB together is over 2.0 gig so as well as asking for something that big been a huge ask, it would probably take a over a year not that many people would want to download it and if it turns out anything like TDD it will be a complete waste of time.

TDD was not that bad, and it wasn't built with the equipment IE mods have today, so you couldn't expect them to do miracles. I think CBisson has released larger mods (Check the Bodies, Shadows over Soubar) that are as large or even larger. It would be a pity to turn the topic into yet another "TDD is rubbish" thread, so dropping the thing would be best.

I think a TOB replacement mod is a great idea, and there are lots of excellent suggestions here. Besides being totally disappointed that there was no BG3, I for one couldn't stand the way they messed with Sarevok's and the PC's mothers. There were clues about these women in BG1 that they basically threw out the window to streamline the whole thing, and it turned out rather nonsensical.

Yeah, the whole linkage(is that the right word) of the plot and your past at the end of ToB seems a bit rushed. It would be cool to explore that whole thing a bit more, and If you choose to include Melissan, try to give her a bit more depth, for I was dissapointed at the end of ToB with Melissan being blah blah blah. Another thing I thought of would be each person in your party having a conversation with the PC and telling the PC what they are doing next.

Well personally first time through ToB I was too busy struggling to stay alive to notice the finer details but that isnt here or there.

What about those seven guys that were sitting around the table in the end SoA movie? I know, I know, they were going to be the original bad guys for ToB but were either replaced or whatever, but maybe they could still be used in a mod? I think if the five and Mellisan won't be included these people(?) would make good replacements.

Also Mindflayer I don't know how much of a help it might be but what if we all set up some polls in SP and other sites? (I'm aka Xavier in the TBG forums) but I'm aware this could only add to the confusion, since it would be hard to make any definate judgements out of votes given the sheer size of the D&D world and how varied the preferences are, and we would have to be extremly careful not to make any of the questions conflict with each other.

@david w: well, you forgot one thing: you are wearing god-like powerful magical item at that time (Cloak of Reflection, Holy Avenger etc), so its not at all impossible to beat Irenicus. Now, suppose that a level 6 guard can have +1 equipment, and your main character is immune to it (thank to the Hell test), how can he even hurt you? His commander can, but you can kill him with a blast, and ignore the rest of his troops. Even if you are an AI or not.

My 2 cents

GI, I thought this debate had died out a long time ago.

But okay...

You say what if the PC has these uber-powerful items and what if the PC is immune to normal weapons?

Fine.

What if: the enemy all have magic weapons? The enemies have spells that can harm the PC? The enemies all have special abilities?

And so the debate goes on...

quote:
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In 3E AD&D*, the Gods tend to have somewhere in the region of 60 or more character levels
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They do not. Reread the Deities and Demigods source book if you doubt me. The greatest gods have 30 character levels or so. Of course, that translates to about 60 in 2e. For reference, a full party of level 40s could probably beat up a single level 60 character, but it would be a tough fight. Deities & Demigods was originally 1E book. Did they also do a 3E version of it? In the 1E version, many gods had levels in multiple classes, and greater gods commonly exceeded 30 levels total.

But all gods also had other powers that made them essentially unbeatable, regardless of level. For instance, if I recall correctly, they could teleport/blink at will with no error, so that they could: almost always avoid getting hit in combat, regardless of their AC; materialize with a weapon strategically positioned inside a character's head or chest cavity; etc.

All that to say that I don't think an encounter with a god would be a reasonable ploy unless CHARNAME first ascended and had similar abilities. But how could such a thing ever be coded and scripted? I say avoid it -- way too many complications and/or compromises that would stretch the credibility for role-playing purposes.