Worthwhile Mods [Archive] - Boards o' Magick

Sikret

Sun, 6th May '07, 3:20pm

Actually, the G3 fixpack fixes a great many egregious errors which most assuredly are not addressed by Baldurdash.
Improved Anvil includes its own Fix/Tweakpack. So, players do not need to worry about things Baldurdash has not fixed. Moreover, the ways IA fixes and tweaks things are optimized for IA's own requirements.

Also, I believe the fixpack has deprecated the used key removal component, so there shouldn't actually be any more compatibility issues with IA
The incompatibility due to the key removal component is a very old and outdated story. G3 Fixpack removed that component and that incompatibility resolved. Later the two mods were incompatible, because G3 Fixpack had a bug which would corrupt one of the game's original spells. But again the Fixpack fixed that internal bug too. We are not sure, however, whether G3 fixpack still contains other critical bugs or not.

unless IA is checking for it in the .tp2 and refusing to install if it is present.
No, IA doesn't have any such checks in its tp2. Players can install G3 Fixpack with IA if they wish; but as I have said repeatedly, such players will do so on their own risk and will not receive any technical support from me if they encounter bugs during their games. I offer technical support only to those players who use the original Baldurdash TOB Fixpack V1.12 with IA.

Baronius

Sun, 6th May '07, 5:02pm

Various people have reported using IA and the BG2 Fixpack without problems. If something works for many people, it doesn't mean it will work for all. When Sikret says quality, it (also) includes that it's guaranteed to all players, and not to most players. "It works for most..." or "No one has reported a problem yet" do not belong to our dictionary.

On the other hand, if we followed such an approach ("no one reported a problem yet"), we could also say: Baldurdash + IA Fixpack functions perfectly, noone has reported that he had any problems with them. Nonetheless, Sikret keeps adding new fixes if he finds real bugs or someone reports real bugs to him.

[..] so there shouldn't actually be any more compatibility issues with IA....unless IA is checking for it in the .tp2 and refusing to install if it is present. But no need to take seriously any more what Drew or SimDing0 say about Improved Anvil, anywhere. They "seem" to know Improved Anvil's relationships (compatibility, incompatibility etc.) better than the author of IA, and constantly bring up the matter (yet it was discussed a million times earlier) -- see the "replies" after Decados' post in this thread. Because they can't accept that the author of IA and most contributors have a different approach in certain things. They try to make G3 Fixpack to be the part of every players' installation during each walkthrough, and the fact IA doesn't support it (for good reasons) is a thorn in their flesh. Otherwise why do they pester IA all the time when they don't even play it personally, and IA's players are usually satisfied?

SimDing0

Sun, 6th May '07, 5:22pm

OK man, cool.

Drew

Sun, 6th May '07, 9:02pm

Alright, Baronius, if you want to have a baseless dislike of a fixpack put together with the cooperation (or, at least, the extension of an invitation) of every modding community rather than participate in order to improve whatever you consider it's problems, that's your prerogative. As someone who has played both IA and NEJ with the BG2 fixpack with no problems (other than the fact that I ultimately decided that neither of the mods were really my cup of tea), I can gladly report that I encountered no bugs other than the "known" bugs. Given that I'm not the only player to make the report, I think it is a little disingenuous to report NEJ or IA to be incompatible with (at least the most recent version of) the fixpack.

Baronius

Sun, 6th May '07, 10:21pm

Alright, Baronius, if you want to have a baseless dislike of a fixpack put together with the cooperation (or, at least, the extension of an invitation) of every modding communityThis hypocricy is what I dislike, not the fixpack. You know it very well that the "dislike" of G3 "fixpack" is not baseless. We tried to do our best to explain it, but CamDawg said (apart from other things) that my definition of a fix is "not practical" enough. (Perhaps we could define a bat as a bird -- wouldn't it be practical?)
Furthermore, accepting an "invitation" is a free decision to my knowledge. "You're invited to contribute to our work according to our guidelines", and those won't accept this who feel that those guidelines are against the most fundemental principles of mod creation -- such as "don't make pointless cosmetic changes on the game just to increment your "Fixed_bugs" counter and to be able to promote the mod as something that includes "Baldurdash plus a few hundred more fixes". And -- which is even worse -- unwise cosmetic changes even can cause incompatibility in certain cases, but this exceeds the scope of a topic about worthwhile mods. Sikret (and others) have no time to check every released version of Fixpack for potential incompatibility risks and other errors.

SimDing0

Sun, 6th May '07, 11:47pm

I think there's a terminology issue here, guys.
When you release a mod, do you call it "buggy" until you absolutely prove that there are no bugs?
Now, should we call two mods "incompatible" until we absolutely prove they are compatible?

There are an awful lot of mods out there. Are you saying that Sikret has tested all 300-odd of them except the Fixpack? That seems frightfully unlikely to me. Why is the Fixpack listed as incompatible but not Mang0's Hip-Hop Mod? I'm willing to bet nobody's tested the latter with IA either.

Basically, you're actually not kidding anyone by pretending that the Fixpack is being ousted for any reason other than you simply don't like it. This is fine, whatever your reasons, but I'd like to make it perfectly clear that playing IA with the Fixpack does not blow anything up except Sikret's sense of self-worth. :)

Baronius

Mon, 7th May '07, 12:07am

You don't understand it. It has nothing to do with single bugs. It's the matter of principles and guidelines (and yes, which may lead to bugs as well). G3 Fixpack development often doesn't seem to be a conscious, disciplined process. Rather a desire, an urge, a mania to "identify" and "fix" more and more "bugs". At this point, you could say that all this just reflects that "I don't like it". And it would be true. But the attitude I refer to has consequences. As I've said, I won't detail here the (already existing/possible) harmful or unpleasant effects of this "urge". I've done it very many times, including a whole long post here at SP, also detailing how G3 FP's changes could be separated to different components. IIRC some optional component was added, but the main point was ignored, without any rational explanation. Fixpack is called a "community project", but it's hypocrisy, its major developers refuse all suggestions that don't fit their plans, or mislead several players who will end up reporting "guard's leather armour is too brown!" and similar "bugs". It wouldn't be bad eventually, but at least it shouldn't be promoted as a "community project" which "Blackwyrm refuses to participate".

Regardless, Sikret may have additional doubts (which he might have told already, I guess) why he doesn't support FP. Improved Anvil is a complex project, which is very sensitive to bugs, e.g. caused by G3 FP. It already had bugs, and I don't doubt that each mod has. But as Sikret also said, there is no time to check each release of G3 FP thoroughly. Unfortunately, the attitude and guidelines (and definitions etc.) of many G3 FP developers can lead to bugs and risks.

[ May 07, 2007, 00:28: Message edited by: Baronius ]

Drew

Mon, 7th May '07, 12:33am

To those trying to decide whether or not to use the fixpack which was written by the entire modding community according to guidelines which were agreed upon by the entire modding community (at least the members that accepted the invite and participated), I would reccomend visiting their forum (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s=4bd3314b5aa08239bda99f1b256afe50&showforum=74) and deciding for yourself if their fixes are too subjective. Remember also that no one has reported any compatibility issues with the most recent versions of IA and the Fixpack. Further, if you install it after NEJ (NEJ looks for it in the .tp2 and refuses to install if it's there), there are no compatibility issues with NEJ, either.

Baronius

Mon, 7th May '07, 12:56am

fixpack which was written by the entire modding communityG3 Fixpack was written by the entire modding community, that's news to me. :)

which was written by the entire modding community according to guidelines which were agreed upon by the entire modding community (at least the members that accepted the invite and participated)Ah, so only by those who partipicated... (a rather big subset of the "entire modding community".).

If I may summarize what you said: G3 Fixpack was developed by those who participated in its development, according to the guidelines they agreed upon. Now that's no surprise to anyone, I guess.

(And it seems it's no problem to bring up NEJ as well (at least twice) after you've hijacked this thread by commenting the official IA information (i.e. IA requires nonweidu BD). Really on-topic. And yeah, teach players how to break mods. Teach people how to deal with others' works... by the way, what's the last mod/tool you released?)

Drew

Mon, 7th May '07, 1:04am

(And it seems it's no problem to bring up NEJ as well (at least twice) after you've hijacked this thread by commenting the official IA information (i.e. IA requires nonweidu BD). Really on-topic. And yeah, teach players how to break mods.NEJ and IA are worthwhile mods, even if they aren't exactly my cup of tea. (In my opinion, NEJ is one of the only "big" mods that is actually worth playing.) So is the fixpack. How exactly does telling players how to take advantage of all three of these worthwhile mods without experiencing any bugs constitute telling them how to break them? And why exactly would that be off-topic in a thread about worthwhile mods? Again, for those trying to decide whether or not to use the BG2 fixpack, I'd strongly recommend visiting its forum (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showforum=74) and deciding for yourself.

Teach people how to deal with others' works... by the way, what's the last mod/tool you released?)About 2 years ago, but it wasn't a very big mod. All it does is assign Minsc a custom berserker kit that enables him to still function as a ranger. You can get it here at SP, if you want. For my part, I spend most of my time play-testing, not modding. Was the snarky personal attack really necessary, by the way?

Baronius

Mon, 7th May '07, 1:31am

How exactly does telling players how to take advantage of all three of these worthwhile mods without experiencing any bugs constitute telling them how to break them?Your instructions are often the exact opposite of the authors' instructions listed e.g. in official readme files. For more explanation, see the paragraph above.

For my part, I spend most of my time play-testing, not modding. Was the snarky personal attack really necessary, by the way?Personal attack. Great. All I wanted to do is to remind you that maybe IA/NEJ authors are not complete newbies either. I don't question your modding/programming skills, but have you ever considered that these people have been working for a lot of time on their mods, so maybe their disclaimers are not there out of whimsy or "to build in deliberate incompatibilities with other mods" (Copyright 2006 seanas). Maybe they know what they're doing. Maybe they really want to help players avoid unexpected, weird anomalies and problems. Are you sure you've still enough experience after 2 years to override the advice of modders who have been very active, plus they know their mod in details very well? Are you sure that playtesting experience is enough? Of course you can have your own opinion, but is it morally correct to imply that these people want to mislead players because they don't like the other mod?

SimDing0

Mon, 7th May '07, 2:34am

Unfortunately, the attitude and guidelines (and definitions etc.) of many G3 FP developers can lead to bugs and risks.While we're on this subject, Sikret's advice of "IA should be installed after other mods without exception" really is an excellent way to ensure things get broken. Is there any chance you can get him to stop telling people this?

Baronius

Mon, 7th May '07, 3:03am

First of all, if I remember correctly, it was exactly you who said somewhere that "generally, mods that improve/change AI should be installed last [..]". In order to surely take their effect. (I don't agree with it in this form, but it's not the subject of this topic.)
Second, if you guys weren't constantly trying to offer "help" to players in how not to follow the installation instructions of certain mods to make them "compatible" with normally incompatible mods, then perhaps Sikret (and probably others) would be able to give more sophisticated installation instructions. However, authors can't do anything else than ask players to install their mod as last, to avoid problems thanks to your "help" I described above. As long as some modders try to force their favourite mods into mod configurations where normally they can't be included due to incompatibility risks, don't expect anything. With you guys constantly being more clever in mod cases than the mods' authors themselves, players will just get more confused, and won't know what to do. The best way to ensure they will encounter bugs and problems.

SimDing0

Mon, 7th May '07, 5:22am

First of all, if I remember correctly, it was exactly you who said somewhere that "generally, mods that improve/change AI should be installed last [..]". In order to surely take their effect.Yes, but not in this context. I've always stated that if you install two AI mods, say Quest Pack and Big Picture, you install the one you want to take precedence last OUT OF THE TWO. (I usually encourage people to put my AI in first because I typically consider it weaker than competing mods.)

BUT, his isn't to say that AI mods go last overall--tweak mods, and ultimately (beyond-any-discussion-because-it-really-is-essential) Virtue get installed last. This is in part because these are the mods that affect previously-installed mods, and partly because it's a lot less of a crisis if some creature's AI gets broken by a later mod than if a quest or game feature malfunctions.

Consider Virtue/BP. Install BP then Virtue. BP's shout scripts get overwritten, but everything works fine. Install Virtue then BP, and the entire Virtue system is broken, which pretty much destroys the game.

Yes, I'm aware that IA's content is more than just tactical changes, but really, I think it's highly unneccessary to insist it be installed last. (I understand every modder's desire to ensure their work remains intact, but this is not the best solution.) Install IA at the same time as other quest content mods.

dmc

Mon, 7th May '07, 6:02am

You know, reading the last dozen or so posts reminds me a great deal of romper room. I'm sure that you modders can make whatever points it is you feel you need to make, on the topic of worthwhile mods, without the need to repeatedly take potshots at each other. (OK, I'm actually not sure that you are capable of that, but I'd like to think that you are.)

Don't get me wrong, it's really pretty amusing and I wouldn't have a problem watching it go on and on like all the other times you guys do this, but it's gotten fairly off topic.

So, let's keep this on topic. If you guys really think we need a debate about whether the whole modding community did X, or how Y mod is a product of the devil, I'm all for it -- in an appropriate thread. I'll sell the popcorn and beer while you guys hack each other to bits in whatever new thread you want to start.

Drew

Mon, 7th May '07, 6:14am

Of course you can have your own opinion, but is it morally correct to imply that these people want to mislead players because they don't like the other mod?I was only informing people that if, like I did, they would like to use these 3 worthwhile mods together in the same install without experiencing any bugs, that they can do so. And I told them how. I'm not the only guy that's done this. People have been working around Vlad's coding of NEJ to make it compatible with "mod X" for years. Since bioware doesn't complain about BG2 players using third party mods, I don't think modders have a lot of room telling people what they are and are not allowed to do with their mods. I love having the fixes from the fixpack. I enjoyed my NEJ/IA playthrough. Since I did enjoy my experience (and a lot of the folks on this forum would enjoy these mods even more than I did), I see no reason not to recommend using all 3 of them together. In fact, I heartily recommend it, at least once.

Sikret

Mon, 7th May '07, 9:36am

1- G3 Fixpack is not listed as "incompatible" with IA in IA's readme. So, I really don't understand what Drew and SimDing are talking about when they make such a claim. I have just said that I will not offer technical supports if a player installs G3 fixpack with IA, because I'm not familiar with G3 Fixpack and I don't have the time to check it for its possible bugs with every new release. The two mods may or may not be compatible. The two mods were surely incompatible in the past (because of the bug in G3 Fixpack) and that's why it was once listed as incompatible; but now we are not sure about their compatibility (or lack thereof) and now the G3 Fixpack is not currently in the list of incompatible mods.

2- As for why IA needs to be installed after all other mods, there are plenty of strong reasons (and no, it's not merely for the AI improvements). Recently, a player violated this rule and he faced bugs. When he corrected the order of installation, the bug diappeared. The thread is still available in IA's forum. It's ridiculous that some people (SimDing in particular) think that they know more about my mod than I do. I think it's obvious that I know more about my own mod than other people do.

EDIT: I agree that it is, in principle, possible to have a mod which can be installed after IA without breaking anything; but since this "in principle" probablity is "practically" very low (and unlikely) and since I can't check every mod's content to make sure that it can (or cannot) be installed after IA (most of them can't anyway), I advise players on the basis of the higher probabilities and tell them to install IA last (which would most probably be the right advice in more than 99% of cases even if we had the time to check all mods). In this way, the chance of conflict will be minimized. For example, we are now sure that most NPC mods and all AI improving mods will break the game if the player installs them after IA. It's, of course, "in principle" possible to have an NPC mod which can also be installed after IA; but since it is a low probability and since we don't have the time to check everything in all mods, we recommend players not to install any mod after IA as the safest solution.

[ May 07, 2007, 11:24: Message edited by: Sikret ]

Kulyok

Mon, 7th May '07, 2:55pm

I'd second the recommendation of the Longer Road - it is worth playing at least once, as is (if you wish to experience a romance with a female PC) Edwin Romance.

One point here really makes me uncomfortable:

"(NEJ looks for it in the .tp2 and refuses to install if it's there)"

I know some mods check for the others, if both authors have agreed on it. For example, Kelsey has a Banter Accelerator and Banter Pack has a Banter Accelerator(an interesting add-on for players who wish to hear and see as many dialogues as they can, by the way). Same with many other mods. Gavin NPC(for TUTU, a very interesting addition), for example, checks for BG1 NPC Project(another worthy one, but I am biased, since I've participated in it). This is very useful for creating crossmod content, and helps to avoid duplicating content, as well.

But I think that checks for other mods should only be added when both authors have expressed permission to add them. Otherwise, they should well leave the other mods alone.

cmorgan

Mon, 7th May '07, 6:05pm

Hmmm...

Specific recommendations for folks who want the least trouble:

1. Google is your friend. There are several communities that can help you. There are a fair number of posts already existing that can give you some great recommendations.

2. The ReadMe and forums give what that modder would like you to use. A good read of forum posts will tell you alot about what works and what doesn't. If Drew, Chevalier, Azazzello, or any player who has been around on the forums for a long time says it works, and a Readme and forum review says otherwise, skip the modders, and PM them for a copy of their WeiDU.LOG to see what their order is (a number of forums have those materials available already posted - SHS in particular has a bunch of folks who play Mega-BP installs.)

3. Modders can't check for everything, but a read of the forum responses will let you know if a modder has time or is willing to help with compatability problems when you deviate from their ReadMe. A modder only has so much time; if they choose to spend it on making new content available, rather than making it work with another mod, this is a principled choice that means you get more of their content, so just find another community to get the help from. Don't bust their chops or ignore their mod because you have to play it "thier way" - you just got a free game expansion, and all they ask for 1000's of hours of work is that you set up the game for the way they built it. Besides, you don't have to bother them - go around them. There are several communities who actively work to try to make things compatible.

4. The debate over Baldurdash vs. G3 Fixpack is not really a debate - hasn't been one for years. G3 Fixpack is the only living, evolving fixing resource which takes into account the actions and coding of as much of the I.E. modding community as possible. Individual modders may argue all sorts of stuff, but for the end user, the most complete and supported set of fixes are there - as are a team of folks across several communities willing to chip in and change things. principles or no principles, it doesn't matter - sticking with a Model-T Ford is only good if you like to go to Antique Auto Shows. Baldurdash did a good job, but the community has moved on, and the game is much cleaner and better for it.

I personally choose BG2_Fixpack, and then have a huge range of mods from which to choose to install. Given Drew says there may not be a problem (and now Silkret has said it isn't specifically listed as "incompatible", I will go ahead and try IA4 this summer; the code looks good and the quests look interesting (from D and BAF excursions, not from playing).

My final suggestion is that there are a number of ways to play the game, so I would argue a great, *very conservative* install that will run pretty much bug free and happy would include just

G3 BG2_Fixpack
Moineese' Avatars
1PixelProductions
Keto
Taisha
Longest Road (or Ascension, one or the other)
Divine Remix
BG2_Tweaks
thebigg's Tweaks (a chosen few)
SimDingo's Tweaks(a chosen few)

Of course, if I was a player who wanted to load up my install, there are huge discussions on this at SHS, complete with folks who create Mega-BP installs, and get the impossible to happen.

my $2 (it started as 2p, but i got carried away. Go figure :) ) A final note - it's just 1s and 0s. in each case, you can back out what you don't want, and then install what you do. That's why weiDU is so great!

p.s. I agree with kulyok about the flagging things - but then again, i don't believe that a modder should 'gun' for another mod or modder in code. Fotrum posts, trash talk, etc. -- ok. But i hope our effrts at helping users doesn't turn back the closk to Mod wars. Face it folks, we are a small audience. Fragment us, and we will all go and play/mod Oblivion, and leave the jackals your bones.

[ May 07, 2007, 18:18: Message edited by: cmorgan ]

Drew

Mon, 7th May '07, 7:22pm

Baronius

Mon, 7th May '07, 7:51pm

@CMorgan: BD Weidu is still being actively developed at Blackwyrm lair, but, since it isn't a cross community effort, it isn't much larger in scope than the original Baldurdash....and is nowhere near as large in scope as the BG2 fixpack.Fortunately :) (I don't doubt BD-WeiDU has problems too, but its scope is still fortunately bugfixing and not tweaking in big sizes.)

Since bioware doesn't complain about BG2 players using third party mods, I don't think modders have a lot of room telling people what they are and are not allowed to do with their mods.They can recommend something, in order to guarantee the quality they want to give to the player. "This is what I offer. You are free to install X mod, but if you do so, I can't give support". Some modders give a stress to this by detecting if the other mod is installed. Everyone can have his/her own opinion about this -- to each his own. As long as its only detection, there is no problem. It's non-destructive. Modifying or actively doing anything else with another mod is a totally different matter (it's strongly unethical if it's done without the authors' agreements). And players can simply remove the line from the TP2 anyway. But at least it will protect from totally daft "players", and this is very important. See my "story" below.

I would like to point out that not all players are as smart as (most of) those who post in these forums. I saw someone at Bioware who was wondering why the game was so hard. After a few posts, it was found out that he had installed IA. Then he started blaming IA. It was totally obvious that he didn't know what IA does, in fact, at the end I realised the player didn't even know what the mods do that he installed. Probably just downloaded a bunch of mods and installed them without checking what they do at all. And then he starts blaming a mod... :help:

cmorgan

Mon, 7th May '07, 8:17pm

@CMorgan: BD Weidu is still being actively developed at Blackwyrm lair Ahhh... my bad. I read BWL, but hadn't seen activity, so I assumed it was no longer going. Bad assumption on my part; I forgot general forums don't post accessible workroom activity. Even worse of me to dismiss it without PMing Baronius first to ask if it was still going. Thanks for setting me straight, Drew.

I can only then speak from preference;

I can rephrase by saying "In my experience, working with tracking bugs and bugpostings from across several communities, investigating Tutu/BGT/BG2 installs and savegames, and learning how to do this modding stuff, I have personally decided the best choice for a player to recieve supported, comprehensive, community based efforts at repairing problems players encounter, coupled with a strong helpful ear if something goes wrong, can be found in the G3 BG2_Fixpack".

Plus, they have Nythrun. And I have it on personal authority that she is a Goddess.

Drew

Mon, 7th May '07, 9:57pm

Fortunately [Smile] (I don't doubt BD-WeiDU has problems too, but its scope is still fortunately bugfixing and not tweaking in big sizes.)The questionable fixes (which some may consider tweakish) are actually in a seperate component from the core fixes.

Sikret

Tue, 8th May '07, 8:58am

"Players have not reported any conflict between IA and G3 Fixpack" is true. BUT, "Players didn't have any bugs in their games while playing IA and G3 Fixpack" is certainly false. All those players who have tried IA with any version of G3 Fixpack older than non-betha v2 had certainly bugs in their games; they just have not noticed them. The fact that they didn't notice them doesn't entail that the bugs didn't exist. We now know very well that they did exist.

All versions of G3 Fixpack older than "non-betha v2" had a critical bug which would corrupt one of the game's original spells. The spell is actually used in some of IA's improved battles. The players who used G3 Fixpack with IA had a critical bug during those battles, but they never noticed it. They won those battles easily without knowing that the enmy's script was broken. Since they had not played IA without G3 Fixpack before, they had no idea of the real and intended difficulty of those battles. They were just happy to defeat (say) Draconis so easily, without knowing that G3 Fixpack had broken the battle.

For example, Drew said that he had tried IA with G3 Fixapck and had never noticed a problem. He says the truth. He never noticed a problem. But then, he concluded that no problem existed. This is false. He had a critical bug in his game for sure (unless he was using the latest current version of G3 Fixpack which was not probably released at that time.)

The bottom line is that all those players who want to play IA and experience its content in its full calibre will follow my installation instructions completely. Others who want to take the risk of possible bugs can do whatever they wish on their own risks.

As I said before, IA has its own Fix/Tweak pack which is optimized for IA's own requirements. All those bugs which are not fixed by Baldurdash TOB Fixpack V1.12 will be fixed by IA (itself). G3 Fixpack may (or may not) be compatible with IA, but you won't really need to take the risk of possible bugs by installing it. It is not listed as "incompatible" because we are not sure whether its latest version is incompatible with IA. Nonetheless, I still strongly recommend NOT to use G3 Fixpack with IA.

*Edited for typos

[ May 08, 2007, 15:49: Message edited by: Sikret ]

SimDing0

Tue, 8th May '07, 9:11am

I don't doubt BD-WeiDU has problems too, but its scope is still fortunately bugfixing and not tweaking in big sizes.Yes, I've definitely always considered the lack of a no-CD crack for my game to be the most severe of bugs!

Honestly, I'm not sure how anyone can talk about BD-WeiDU with a straight face given that the old author has taken to championning the Fixpack and the sole maintainer is Vlad who won't use anything that isn't vintage 1985.

Baronius

Tue, 8th May '07, 5:29pm

No need for this desperate defence of G3 "Fixpack", SimDing0. As Drew said, everyone is free to check the mods' own forums for information and decide what he/she considers to be a worthwhile mod to install. Readmes are useful too. I've also told my points. (On a side note, BD-WeiDU's latest version, IIRC in fact even the previous release, doesn't include any crack.)

All versions of G3 Fixpack older than "non-betha v2" had a critical bug which would corrupt one of the game's original spells. The spell is actually used in some of IA's improved battles. The players who used G3 Fixpack with IA had a critical bug during those battles, but they never noticed it. They won those battles easily without knowing that the enmy's script was broken. Since they had not played IA without G3 Fixpack before, they had no idea of the real and intended difficulty of those battles. They were just happy to defeat (say) Draconis so easily, without knowing that G3 Fixpack had broken the battle.

For example, Drew said that he had tried IA with G3 Fixapck and had never noticed a problem. He says the truth. He never noticed a problem. But then, he concluded that no problem existed. This is false. He had a critical bug in his game for sure (unless he was using the latest current version of G3 Fixpack which was not probably released at that time.)
Very good point. Many modders forget the fact that a bug or incompatibility doesn't necessarily causes a crash, a freeze or other spectacular phenomenon. They can have "hidden" effects. For example, a (released, known) mod changes the same attribute as another known mod. Only the changes of the last installed mod will take effect in case of this attribute, and for example, this will cause a battle in the first mod to happen in a (perhaps totally) different way than the author of the first mod made it (As we know, even one bit can make difference in certain cases). What's the result? Players know that the first mod improves/adds battles, and will judge it according to that battle -- and perhaps report that "it worked fine together with Y mod despite the incompatibility warning, though it's not particularly my cup of tea". Yeah, no crash and no broken quest, so no incompatibility! I'm talking generally and not about IA, but who knows if -- for example -- Drew has experienced what Sikret actually added to IA. (Considering Drew doesn't always follow installation instructions -- install order, incompatible components etc. He seems to be inclined to experiment and override the original recommendations.) That is, the statement those mods were tested together and everything worked perfectly is valid if and only if all important aspects have been checked. If there haven't been any broken quests or items, CTDs, incorrect dialogues etc., it still means almost nothing.

All in all, certain modders consider "practice" and "concrete examples" as the only useful sources of information on quality, compatibility, future compatibility risk etc. It's true that in many cases practice offers the most significant information eventually, but, for example, it's very often inadequate to allow us to generalize, or to give reliable information in case of a question. (Just imagine if science and engineering -- including the things that influence the everyday life of all of us -- was purely based on practice and tests. In fact, science would have never reached this level without abstraction and generalization.) And several problems of IE modding should be examined from a theoretical view as well. (NiGHTMARE's statement at BWL is a good example of wrong belief in this matter. He said he uses the word "theoretically" when he isn't sure about something. When I asked for clarification, his words made it obvious to me that his conception of the word's real meaning is completely wrong.) To sum up, I advise modders to include other aspects as well beside pure practice, when examining certain things.

This latter paragraph might be long and might look off-topic, but I believe that it's good if players also know about this (i.e. hidden bugs exist, incompatibility isn't just crash etc.) when selecting their "worthwhile mods".

[ May 08, 2007, 17:46: Message edited by: Baronius ]

Truper

Tue, 8th May '07, 6:28pm

Hey dmc: got that beer and popcorn concession up and running yet? It looks as if we're going to need it.

On an only slighty more serious note, I'm getting ready to start rating these folks on their debating technique, rather than on the content they've created (for which I thank them, even if I have never tried their particular contribution). Given what this thread has become, I could hardly be accused of hijacking it any further than it has already gone ;)

Baronius

Tue, 8th May '07, 6:56pm

Indeed it was somewhat hijacked, unfortunately. If you see my posts in this topic, you'll notice that most of them are answers to actual questions posted by players -- until Drew started to comment a fact I've taken from an official readme (i.e. what the official readme says about a required fixpack). However, instead of watching the technique, you might want to interpret (certain) content as well. For example, as a player it might be useful for you to know that when others say two mods worked perfectly, it doesn't mean they're completely compatible -- and perhaps it won't work for you in the way their authors wanted. This is what I detailed in the previous post (as well). However, if you're looking exclusively for "my favourites are X, Y, and Z mod, they're cool" sort of answers, I'll try to complete your request below.

I would like to add BG2 Improvements (http://balduran.blackwyrmlair.net/) to the list of the mods I've already recommended (ToD, IA). It has many components, so you can customize your installation easily. The selection includes a kit and a quest as well.

cmorgan

Tue, 8th May '07, 7:01pm

Point taken...

[directly on topic]
BG2 Mods.
From personal playing experience:
Keto rocks. Xan is a must if you have a female PC and want some tragic romance. Taisha is a new find for me, and already I am in love. Don't tell my wife; it is bad enough I can't romance Keto. BG2_Tweaks rocks. The Bigg has good solid fixes. If you want to play on Wine/Linux, go check his posts out - you can't do better than the current God of WeiDU for finding out what works and what doesn't. SimDingo's goodberries and sections of his tweaks make Druids (whether you are one or just taking Jaheira along) worthwhile, and his XP mod is immensely useful for balanced, fun gameplay. Divine Remix makes Clerics, Paladins, and Rangers truly a good, new, and balanced set of classes. Flirt Packs are fun if you don't mind a PG13+ environment. Playing without the Banter Pack is a huge mistake. Don't start an install without it. Kivan and D - I love Domi's work, so I am way, way prejudiced, but I have to say I am going to find it tough to allow anyone else in that slot in my party. I know there is more out there, but I am finding it hard to imagine BG2 without a full story-arc buddy who actually responds in character, has solid quests, pathos, but opportunities to be the good guy winner. Very, very cool.
From forum research and code review, but not playing:
Saerileth looks fun, but there are some forum posts indicating some troubles - it requires some reading. Plus some suspension of disbelief about a 15 yr old female Planar Paladin fallling immediately in love with a male PC. But I'm intrigued. AofE is popular, but I prefer to leave 2E class restrictions in place. Kits are interesting. Amber is an awesomely coded and interesting mod that allows Player2 to romance, so Multiplayer or singleplayer games who want more lovin' can be sure it is a well built, interesting, and well supported mod. BGT is a strong and well built mod that i don't usually play (I prefer Tutu), but it is a hugely good mod. I would recommend it if you are a single-playthrough-with-one-character-and-one-set-of-mods kind of player.
Most of the rest I reserve judgement on, either through lack of a full code review, through lack of unbiased forum posts to research/read, or because it does not ring any bells for me.
The good news is I have been studying these folks for over a year non-stop now, and I have only really scratched the surface. I have not worked with many CoM mods, or RPG Dungeon; and then there are all the foreign langage sites.

Lots to choose from...
[/directly on topic]

Taluntain

Tue, 8th May '07, 8:55pm

I'll thank the modders to stop with their customary bickering now and stick to the topic. We've heard all of the arguments from both sides in the past already, so repeat lashing at each others' throats, while certainly providing us with a spectator event that no one wants to miss, is really not winning any of you any favours with your general user base.

Since neither side is willing to tolerate (let alone accept) the other's philosophy and approach, you're obviously destined to remain in conflict indefinitely. Which, given everything that I've seen on the modding scene over the years, probably suits both sides just fine. But I'll thank you to leave your swords at the door if you intend to keep posting here. There's more than enough archived bickering here that you can link to it next time you have the urge to get into it afresh again.

Decados

Wed, 9th May '07, 12:18pm

Considering Drew doesn't always follow installation instructions -- install order, incompatible components etc. He seems to be inclined to experiment and override the original recommendations I have no wish to stand in the middle of the large brawl that occurs everytime you bunch meet, so I'll keep this to the point and hope you do the same. Do you consider experimenting with mods wrong? I can see it would be a bad idea if you were writing a review or playtesting components, but I'm not sure what is so wrong about making your own mind up with what you want to play with. This is even more applicable if the person in question is a modder themselves- they are more likely to understand the consequences of their actions. If they accept the mod author won't help them if they run into a problem, who's to say it is a bad idea?

Returning on topic:

Saerileth looks fun, but there are some forum posts indicating some troubles - it requires some reading. Plus some suspension of disbelief about a 15 yr old female Planar Paladin fallling immediately in love with a male PC. But I'm intrigued.
I'm in two minds over Saerileth. She is written fairly well and has well balanced stats. OTOH, the language seems out of place when no-one else uses it and I've yet to endure the entire romance. This may just be me, so I'm not against recommending the mod. As to the 15 point- if this bothers you, then simply imagine her to be your country's minimum legal age. Easy solution.

Sikret

Wed, 9th May '07, 12:29pm

I can see it would be a bad idea if you were writing a review or playtesting components, but I'm not sure what is so wrong about making your own mind up with what you want to play with.
Yes, as far as the person is customizing his own game, it's not a problem. The problem is when he doesn't follow a mod's installation instructions accurately and then appears in public forums to write incorrect things about the mod and gives misguided instructions and information to other players.

Baronius

Wed, 9th May '07, 2:30pm

Since Decados is a player (to my knowledge), and he asked a question publicly and not a PM while quoting my post, I believe a very short answer belongs to here.

Considering Drew doesn't always follow installation instructions -- install order, incompatible components etc. He seems to be inclined to experiment and override the original recommendations Do you consider experimenting with mods wrong? I can see it would be a bad idea if you were writing a review or playtesting components, but I'm not sure what is so wrong about making your own mind up with what you want to play with. This is even more applicable if the person in question is a modder themselves- they are more likely to understand the consequences of their actions. I've nowhere implied in that post that experimenting was wrong. All I said is that we can't be sure if Drew really had the gaming experience that the mods' authors actually included in their mods (due to the hidden incompatibilities that may be caused by the experimentation). And in such a case, when e.g. Drew judges the mod, he won't judge what the mods actually added, because their installation guidelines weren't followed.

If you have any questions to me related to any of my posts here, please feel free to send me a PM -- I'll reply when I can. I hope everyone will respect SP and won't keep bringing up mod development-related aspects in gaming topics.

cmorgan

Wed, 9th May '07, 4:37pm

[on topic]Good point on Saerileth. I am planning a summer game with her involved.

I realized my posts did not include some goodies worth looking at, and was male-centric...

I have used Zyrean's (I spelled it wrong, I think :( ) Accellerated Ust N component from his tweakpack, and it works great; I have also used UB. The only reason UB might not be on an "easy install" list is that it does require a little reading and edit at the present time, but I thik it's worth the forum time to read.

I don't usually add more dudes than Kivan (and Xan if I am thinking about a female PC, but I have never finished a game completely with him) into the game, but people report having strong reactions to Kelsey, pro and con. I think if you are looking for a dude, he's pretty interesting. [/On Topic]

It might be time for some of the playing folks to go do your own reactions/reviews, and put them up here at SP. Most modders like feedback (even when they don't agree, it means you played their mod - so if you are playing something you really like, it might be cool to write up your impressions as you play, and let folks know in a review format.

Modders really shouldn't do that review thing, unless they can report positively - it isn't cool to trash eachother's unpaid, labor-of-love, thousands of hours of eyebusting, headspinning, horribly tedious work. Every mod out there still involves someone's whole time and energy, and that is just learning how to try to get things to work.

Kulyok

Wed, 9th May '07, 9:38pm

Every mod that is out and in the public domain can and will be open to all sorts of feedback, from modders and otherwise. Positive and otherwise. "Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" is never productive.

Drew

Wed, 9th May '07, 10:10pm

Anytime you look at mods you'd like to use, compatibility is of paramount concern. If, for example you'd like to install the new NPC mod "Johan the homophobic half-elf supremacist" along with a "romances ignore race and gender requirements" tweak, you are going to have at least a conceptual compatibility problem*. A real world example of this would be trying to install the Chosen of Cyric encounter from Rogue Rebalancing along with BP. These mods simply will not work together (or, at least, they wouldn't the last time I checked). Another example would be trying to install two TC's at the same time. It'll never work.

By the way, I heartily recommend both the Chosen of Cyric Encounter and BP Weidu.....just not at the same time. While I'm not fond of "big" mods and don't use them, I am fond of BP's script additions and it's (in my opinion, much more sane) version of ascension.

And in such a case, when e.g. Drew judges the mod, he won't judge what the mods actually added, because their installation guidelines weren't followed.Not in this case, since the additions made by NEJ won't be appended by the fixpack (NEJ concentrates on adding new content and new items in new areas that the fixpack will not touch) and changes made by IA will take precedence since it is installed last.

* Admittedly, in a case like this the mod will probably still work . It'll just be.....weird.

[ May 09, 2007, 23:06: Message edited by: Drew ]

Sikret

Thu, 10th May '07, 8:48am

and changes made by IA will take precedence since it is installed last.
If, for example, another mod has already corrupted one of the game's original files (such as a spell file), installing IA (no matter after or before that mod) will not solve the problem.

Yes, when you install IA last, then IA's combat scripts will take precedence, but problems are not confined to combat scripts. When I give a certain installation recommendation or instruction for my mod, I have many other factors in mind. Don't follow them and you will most probably have problems/bugs in your game and your experience of the mod's content will not be as it was intended (even if you do not notice any problems during the game, it doesn't mean that they don't exist).

Drew

Thu, 10th May '07, 9:26am

If, for example, another mod has already corrupted one of the game's original files (such as a spell file), installing IA (no matter after or before that mod) will not solve the problem.While there is no such thing as a mod or fixpack that has no errors, this isn't what the fixpack is doing. It's true that the fixpack has caused some spells to function differently (for example, the fixpack stops multiple Vampiric Touch spells from stacking as per its description, several spells no longer exclude the wrong schools as per their descriptions, and the ranges of a few spells have been changed to match their descriptions), but that hardly qualifies as introducing a bug into the game. Perhaps your AI was counting on Skull Trap having a nerfed range, but I would argue that fixing the incorrect range modifier for Skull Trap isn't going to break anything.....and it hardly qualifies as a bug.

Kulyok

Thu, 10th May '07, 10:02am

Oh, and Xan is not only available as 'a romance option for females': he has a long, rich friendship path for all players, three quests, and an alternative class component(Fighter/Mage, Sorcerer, Mage, Wild Mage).

Sikret

Thu, 10th May '07, 10:04am

BG2 Fixpack (older than non-betha v2) contained a critical bug which would indeed corrupt one of the game's original spells very badly. It's strange that you were not (and are not still) aware of the existence of that bug in G3 Fixpack (non-betha v1 and older). Recommending a mod to players without knowing its version history and its bugs is really news to me.

EDIT: The reason I am talking a previous version of G3 Fixpack is to show that the general argument that "Players didn't notice or report a problem; therefor, no problem exists" is invalid. We have a counter example for this argument: "There were players who played the bugged version of G3 Fixpack with IA and never noticed and reported a bug; though we are now completely sure that their game was bugged."

Similarly, the fact that even now, no players notice any problem while playing G3 fixpack with IA doesn't entail that no problem exists in their games. If you want to play IA with safety, follow the installation instructions in the mod's readme file, please.

[ May 10, 2007, 17:51: Message edited by: Sikret ]

Decados

Thu, 10th May '07, 11:29am

Thanks for the answer Baronius, your meaning wasn't so clear from the part I quoted- it looked as if you were discouraging experimentation. Now I know.

Kulyok's Xan is pretty cool, even when not romancing.

starwalker

Thu, 10th May '07, 1:13pm

Is Xan a mod for just BG2/ToB or is it like a Tutu thing or Trilogy thing or something like that?

Kulyok

Thu, 10th May '07, 1:33pm

Xan mod from PPG is for BG2(SoA only or SoA+ToB, ToB content is present)/(BG2 part of BGT):
http://www.pocketplane.net/xan

For BG1 part (BG1 part of BGT)/TUTU you'll have to download BG1 NPC Project:
http://gibberlings3.net/bg1npc

cmorgan

Thu, 10th May '07, 4:51pm

I have played the Tutu side of Xan all the way through, from the male friendship perspective, and it was excellent.

I have only gotten through Spellhold with Xan on the BG2 side, and only through (Tutu) Baldur's Gate with Xan playing a female romance - not because of content, because of playtime (not much of it that doesn't revolve around bugfixing and testing other projects). I heartily recommend both Xan and Kivan for either install -

BUT I consider Xan a MUST install mod if you want a strong romance for a female PC. When Gavin comes out for BG2, I think that will be a tough choice for female PC players - that will mean BG2 has four solid romance choices, and only five party slots to play with.

I can't say from a player perspective either way on Kivan romance for female PC as I have not played it (I just haven't had the time yet), but the writing for the friendship side is stellar (remeber, I am biased towards all of Domi's work, so I may be a little fanboi-ish, but I don't think so; I hope I am able to report accurately). Reading the .d and .tra files, I am definitely going to have to find the time to try t from a player perspective.

I am interested to know if someone has player perspective comments on Solufain. I know lots of folks add him, but have never really tried myself - for a non-romance playthrough with a male F or F/M or Paladin (role-player), does anyone have player perspective?

[ May 10, 2007, 17:03: Message edited by: cmorgan ]

Drew

Thu, 10th May '07, 7:37pm

BG2 Fixpack (older than non-betha v2) contained a critical bug which would indeed corrupt one of the game's original spells very badly. It's strange that you were not (and are not still) aware of the existence of that bug in G3 Fixpack (non-betha v1 and older). Recommending a mod to players without knowing its version history and its bugs is really news to me.
Did I say that I recommended playing obsolete versions of mods? I don't. Would you recommend that players use old versions of IA? I really don't see what you are trying to say here. I don't understand why a bug which existed on an earlier release of a mod is really a valid reason not to play it now. If the only mods you are willing to play are the type that never had any bugs in the first place, than there wouldn't be any mods available at all.

Decados

Thu, 10th May '07, 8:27pm

Solaufain's banters are good- I really liked some of the talks we got into. He's also a very powerful party member, though you'll have to go early to the Underdark if you want to play most of SoA with him. The downside to using him is the battles. Without mincing words- these can be tough, especially if you haven't played them before. The worst part is that they are inevitable, so you can't avoid them (the exception being the Eclipse encounter in ToB, which is avoidable). He's certainly worth taking through at least once, although you should be confident you are good at the game first.

Baronius

Thu, 10th May '07, 9:26pm

As a (hopefully) interesting addition, I would like to mention the Auramaster Kit (http://www.blackwyrmlair.net/Mods/auramaster.php).

Cernd isn't the favourite character of many players, often because he is too weak. Auramaster mod aims to change on this, but it also allows you to choose the kit for your protagonist.

[..]and changes made by IA will take precedence since it is installed last.This quote is from your reply that you posted after I've suggested PM. I didn't reply, waited, but then you've made another two posts in the same topic. Why do you want to force the discussion here?

Your statement that I quoted is wrong (too). It's generally true that just because ModB is installed after ModA, it doesn't ensure that ModB's functionality won't change. It's because ModB has dependendencies. If ModA corrupts an original game spell used by ModB, it won't work in ModB regardless the installation order. (For example, ModA = earlier G3FP, ModB = IA). So the consequences of latent bugs cannot be avoided via installation order. That is, your IA battle can have the same (possibly hidden) flaws due to other mods even if you install IA as the last mod.

Did I say that I recommended playing obsolete versions of mods? I don't. Would you recommend that players use old versions of IA? I really don't see what you are trying to say here. I don't understand why a bug which existed on an earlier release of a mod is really a valid reason not to play it now.BG2 Fixpack "fixes" too many things and many things are untested. Despite what its developers imply, there are serious bugs in almost each new release of Fixpack. This is partly due to the development attitude and guidelines, and it's also somewhat natural -- it's relatively new, it wasn't tested as many times as, for example, BD. The newest Fixpack version, for example, causes a crash (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=10305). Optional component, but most FP players install all those, so it's no wonder Shaitan also encountered it (and for some reason reported it in the IA forum (http://forums.blackwyrmlair.net/index.php?showtopic=2722)). G3FP -- as every mod -- will have bugs, but it would have many less if more consciousness and discipline characterized its development. IA is a complex mod, changes many aspects of the game, and thus it's too sensitive to be used with such a dynamic, untested and problematic project such as G3FP. Now really let's stay with PM, please.

Thanks for the answer Baronius, your meaning wasn't so clear from the part I quoted- it looked as if you were discouraging experimentation. Now I know.Well, as long as they are aware of the possible consequences, why not. :)

However, I'm also not against anti-cheat protections made by modders. Smart players will avoid these anyway, while it will prevent certain people from spreading false rumours about mods -- like the one who posted on the Bioware forums (who didn't even know what mods he had installed at all).

[ May 10, 2007, 21:40: Message edited by: Baronius ]

starwalker

Fri, 11th May '07, 1:18am

I'm already scared of the overdone fixes and you guys aren't helping. Is there any chance we can just toss you guys in a room and see who comes out alive?

another question of curiosity about Xan. Does he still get to keep his moonblade? Though I am aware that it is easily outclassed by a number of weapons in SoA and ToB.

As for Soulafein he's got some tough fights. I understand that the one where he's turned into a vampire as part of the romance can be particularly tough considering he is quite powerful all on his own and it gets turned against you while you are a man down. it's particularly enjoyed by the guys that love to ramp up the difficulty pretty much as high as it can go.

Drew

Fri, 11th May '07, 3:05am

@Baronius: I will stay at PM if you stop bashing the fixpack in a thread about what mods to install and expecting no one to respond to it. Just as no one should be bashing IA or any blackwyrm mod unless it is to bring up a specific criticism, (in which case a response from someone involved with the mod should be considered reasonable) in a thread like this because it will always lead to a pissing contest where the modder would (rightfully) try to defend his mod or at least clarify any attacks made against it, you shouldn't be bashing the fixpack in a public forum and expect no one to defend or clarify your attacks on it......especially when you use non-core fixes that players should understand aren't likely to be as well tested as your example of a fixpack bug. If you continue to bash the fixpack publicly, then it is more than a little unreasonable to expect no one to publicly defend it.

[ May 11, 2007, 21:49: Message edited by: Drew ]

cmorgan

Fri, 11th May '07, 6:07am

@Starwalker - there is really no need to be afraid of *any* of these mods - SHS has folks that put together incredibly huge installs with just about everything out there including the kitchen sink, and have lots of fun playing them. If you take it with a sense of humor and adventure, you will probably find that there is alot out there that is truly enjoyable!

RE: Solufain -
Well, if Solufain's characterization and banters are cool, then it sounds like a good bet to try him in spite of the battles. As seen by my mod recommendations, I tend to be less combat-oriented or even scripting/AI oriented (thoughI do use cirreric's mods and SCS on EasyTutu, I tend not to mess with the AI on SoA/ToB). I have survived TGCep1 (barely, with huge numbers of repeated reloads, and enjoyed it) so I can deal with the fights (not well, but if they are harder than TGCEp1 (now "In Candlelight" worst comes to worst there is always Ctr-Y :) ). The biggest thing I am looking for is personality.

I want Valen, but I can't see playing an evil character, so I don't think I can go there. Have to stick to reading the files.

starwalker

Fri, 11th May '07, 7:25am

i'm like CM.

I go more for added content than added difficulty. The mentions of added difficulty are what have kept me away from certain mods.

And by being scared of the over fixes I do mean in a sense the "the armour is too brown" and bunch of other little things that aren't really fixes all until the point that at some stage as they keep adding new stuff and fixing bugs I don't really recognize the game anymore. I don't mind a few flaws honestly as long as the real bugs are fixed. Over my last year or two on these forums I've also heard plenty of different wierd things happening because somebody has put all these different fixes or changes or whatever to get wierd glitches. Also because I do like to add things for the content and not difficulty changes or the like. I do like to experience as much as I can what the modder intended.

But then I've also heard many of the wierd things that have ended up unexpectedly in Silverstar's games with his monolithic lists of mods he tries out which made me just a little paranoid when I was first learning about mods.

Decados

Fri, 11th May '07, 11:40am

Be warned that you will likely have to reload once or twice even with Soulafein's first battles- they really are nasty when you don't know what is coming up.

But then I've also heard many of the wierd things that have ended up unexpectedly in Silverstar's games with his monolithic lists of mods he tries out which made me just a little paranoid when I was first learning about mods. I wouldn't worry too much about playing with a lot of mods- so long as you read the readme for each and use some common sense, you should be alright. I've played with a similar number to Silverstar for a while and got away with it, so there's no reason you can't too. :)

I want Valen, but I can't see playing an evil character, so I don't think I can go there. Have to stick to reading the files. I tried her briefly, but didn't keep her all that long. I can understand the weakness during the day, but when she moved super fast at night (annoyingly outpacing the rest of the party), I couldn't decide when the best time to go out would be.

Is there any chance we can just toss you guys in a room and see who comes out alive?
This is the best thing anyone has said so far. If only we could- the Mod Wars would be practically over in one fell swoop. Perhaps we could partition Tal to bring it about?

Baronius

Fri, 11th May '07, 1:23pm

you shouldn't be bashing the fixpack in a public forum and expect no one to defend or clarify your attacks on it......It's you who started it all, by encouraging players not to follow the installation instructions of a (yes, blackwyrm) mod, and choose another mod instead. So I've clarified the reasons why that mod is risky (and thus the whole idea to override author instructions), then you told your counter-arguments, so now let's try to finish it at this point.

(not well, but if they are harder than TGCEp1 (now "In Candlelight" worst comes to worst there is always Ctr-Y ).You probably know that sometimes a few Flaming Fist members might have bigger combat efficiency than Ctrl+Y, if you know what I mean :) :p

Taluntain

Fri, 11th May '07, 1:49pm

Yes, do finish it, otherwise I will.

Caedwyr

Fri, 11th May '07, 4:08pm

One thing to keep in mind about Solaufein, is that his characterization is better described as Weimerfan (as acknowledged by Weimer); having little to do with his in-game characterization once he joins your party. This isn't to say its poorly done, but I kind of wish that someone would do a Sola NPC mod based on the Bioware character as I find him more interesting.

@ Starwalker: if you are worried about subjective fixes, but still want the most stable game, obvious bug-free game you can get, then just install the Core Fixes component from the BG2 Fixpack. These fixes have been heavily discussed/debated and vetted and have stood up to several rounds of bugtesting and troubleshooting. I would not recommend playing the game without any patches, as there's a definate chance you'll run into one annoying bug or another that while it may not ruin your game, will cause problems.

You could also go with the original Balderdash, but if you are wary of subjective fixes you'll want to stay away from the game text update, and probably want to go through the list of fixes (I think each individual fix is still downloadable) and pick out the ones that you feel are appropriate. As a warning, there are number of fixes that many feel are subjective in this package, so keep that in mind if you are thinking about installing it wholesale. I know that back before the Fixpack was even conceived, I'd never install all the fixes, but pick and choose as best I could.

In the same vein, the BG2 Fixpack has exhaustive documentation and instructions for how to not use certain fixes if you don't like what you see. The instructions are all given in the fixpack forum over at gibberlings3.

Personally, I'd stay away from the Weidu-Balderdash that is available at blackwyrmlair as the documentation isn't all that great, with a fair number of things lumped into "Miscellaneous Fixes".

Bottom line, you'll find people claiming every fixpack is imperfect and bloated with subjective fixes and tweaks.

My personal preference is to use the BG2FixPack from gibberlings3 as a base and comment/edit out the fixes I don't want, following the simple instructions given on their forums; refering to the documentation.

Mods I've personally enjoyed or want to try out include the following:

Amber NPC (though I'm waiting for the ToB portion to be released)
Keto NPC (same as above)
Xan NPC (haven't tried, but want to)
Tiax NPC (as above)
Kelsey (enjoyable party member)
Banter Packs (I don't play without this)
Flirt Packs (same)
Weidu-Ascension (ToB isn't the best conclusion, storywise to BGII, but Ascension makes it much better)
Questpack (the only thing that makes this noticeable as mod content, is a number of the quests are of higher quality than the original game material)
Virtue (the default reputation system is fairly restrictive. Virtue makes this all better)
Turnabout (haven't tried yet, but I definately want to give it a shot.)
The Longer Road (haven't played it before, but I've heard good things, and the auther is a good writer)
Kivan and Dehernia (sp?) (Domi is a modding god, and her stuff is always super high quality, never tried before but I haven't heard anything bad about this mod)
G3/BG2 Tweakpack (selected components)
Auren Aseph (haven't tried it before, but supposedly it has improved greatly in quality from when it was first released, I'll probably give it a try)
Cirerrek's AI scripts (or another AI script mod such as Yovaneth's. I like something to allow the NPCs to feel like they have their own minds, while I can still direct them if needed in combat)
Divine Remix (selected components)
G3 Anniversary Mod (more quests are good)
Every Mod and a Dog (more irrevant quest goodness)
NPC Kitpack (a few minor tweaks to the bioware NPCs, largely cosmetic, but it fits nicely)
Oversight (selected components, sometimes. I'll have to see if my favourite components have been superseeded by the BG2 Fixpack)
Song and Silence (selected components)
Sword and Fist (Selected components)
Moinesse's Avatars (never played with, but I've heard good things about it)
Improved Bams (never played with it, but I'll give it a shot)
Improved Horns of Valhalla (the originals sucked, this makes it more fun without being overpowered)
Dungeon Be Gone (I've played the first dungeon so many times that I never play the game without this mod now)
Rogue Rebalancing (http://rogue.rebalancing.googlepages.com/ all the content here is of high quality and fits very smoothly with the original game. Tactical challenge enthusiasts will enjoy the Chosen of Cyric encounter, which features a challenging fight against opponents who play by all the same rules as you do. No hacked stats/resistances/immunities, no cheating scripts. Whatever they can do, you can do.)
BG2 Refinements (Selected Components)
Taisha NPC (I've never played this NPC before, but apparantly Bri has done a fairly extensive makeover of the mod and I'll probably check it out one of these days)
Expanded Thief Stronghold (for when I'm playing a rogue or using the multi-stronghold patch to make the thief stronghold quests more enjoyable)
Shards of Ice (not really, I just include this on my lists to annoy Icelus)
Unfinished Business (with appropriate modifications to make it work and fix the bugs in the current old version available)
A Mod for the Orderly (A keyring mod, just a minor tweak to make gameplay more enjoyable)
DEFJam (modify experience rewards for a more challenging game)
DOTweawk (selected components)
MangO's Hip-Hop Mod (See my comments about shards of ice)
Planar Sphere Teleporter (if I'm playing a mage/sorcerer or using the multi-stronghold mod)

.... more to be added later when I'm not behind a lame firewall that keeps me from browsing the Pocketplane modlist.

[ May 12, 2007, 23:43: Message edited by: Caedwyr ]

Caradhras

Fri, 11th May '07, 4:25pm

I've tried Solaufein and Valen, both are good NPC Mods but I do find them too powerful. They tend to overshadow the protagonist and I don't like that.

I don't like Yasarena for this reason (she has some insane items, at least at the point when she joins the party) plus I believe that too many good drow is not a sensible option.

I tried Saerileth once, I was impressed but the voicing stood out a little.

I found Kivan way too talkative (perhaps I'm the only player to think that, I admit it's well written but there are way too many interjections IMHO). I remembered him as a dark and glum character in BG1.

Kelsey and Keto are great mods and if you want some fun I'd suggest Hubbelpot. I only have Keto installed at the moment though because I'm slightly bored with Kelsey (although it's a great mod). Does anyone know if a Keto mod for ToB is going to be released in the foreseeable future?

I still have to try Xan and Tiax and from what I've read it should be interesting and (a little off topic perhaps) I'm (im)patiently waiting for the completion of the Eranon mod for Tutu (Caradhras is crossing his fingers so hard that they are blue).

cmorgan

Fri, 11th May '07, 6:17pm

(same firewall troubles here, which is why my lists are never complete - having to dredge it up out of memory between tasks, so the contents are stream of consiousness here!)

I can't believe I missed Jasper and the best mod ever created - DBG!

I am waiting for Eranon too... but Andyr's PhD has to be finished first, I suspect :)

I am hoping that The Broken Hourglass wrapping up will bring the heavy folks back into BG modding for long enough to expand Keto into ToB - and of course I really wish she was romanceable. At the same time, she is fine the way she is, so I shouldn't ask for too much...

Now it really sounds as if I am missing something on Solufein. I too have roleplaying issues with "good' drow (FR seems to be teeming with them, when it should be the equivalent of finding a LG Tanar'ri in your party), but now you folks have really peaked my interest. I'm ok with "Weimerfan" - I tend to elevate many of the pioneers to a big pedestal, as they did impossible things and made it possible for us to make good mods. If I am going to allow another good Drow, I can deal with a little off-Bioware-characterization.

(Baronius is right on the Ctr-Y thing - it took me ages to learn tactics and strategic withdrawal in TGCep1, which was fun on its own - and I had to force myself to block CLUAConsole, until the day came when I found out that sometimes Ctr-Y is not enough - I am still not the best tactician, as I tend towards unit tactics and forget magic until last. That's why script additions are great for me, both C's and Y's work extremely well.)

I will check on Hubblepot this evening. What is his home forum, please?

And someone has to do something about this 24 hour day silliness -- I have been off in Tutu-land for so long that I forgot exactly how huge the IE modding universe really is. I need two extra gaming days added to every week, plus another two for modding!

Sikret

Fri, 11th May '07, 6:39pm

Did I say that I recommended playing obsolete versions of mods? I don't. Would you recommend that players use old versions of IA? I really don't see what you are trying to say here.
Had you read my previous post carefully, you would have seen my point. Let me quote from it again:

The reason I am talking a previous version of G3 Fixpack is to show that the general argument that "Players didn't notice or report a problem; therefor, no problem exists" is invalid. We have a counter example for this argument: "There were players who played the bugged version of G3 Fixpack with IA and never noticed and reported a bug; though we are now completely sure that their game was bugged."
You and SimDing were using the invalid argument: "Since players are playing IA with Bg2Fixpack and never reported a bug; hence, no bugs or conflicts exist and players don't need to listen to Sikret's advice."

I talked about a previous version of BG2Fixpack (as an example) to show that "players do not report a bug" doesn't necessarily mean "No bug Exists". As we know that many players were playing the bugged version of BG2Fixpack with IA without reporting any bug; while we are now sure that their games were bugged. They just had not noticed the bugs.