Hi all,

I'm gathering suggestions for kits that MAY make it into a future version of IA (thanks Sikret). Below are the 2 templates that Sikret and I have come up with. Suggestions on how to improve the 2 kits to balance them are welcomed.

Spartan

A Spartan is born and raised for only one purpose. War. A Spartan is trained from youth to be a disciplined and deadly fighter, and is especially skilled with the spear. In addition, many a comrade in arms have found refuge behind a spartan's phalanx stance.

Advantages
+1 dmg +1 thaco with spear every 3-5 levels
May use 'Phalanx stance once per day. While in phalanx stance, Spartan gains -5 ac, while nearby allies gain -2 ac
Can use spear with one hand(possible?)

Disadvantages
May not wear plate mail
Can only spec in weapons other then spear.


Huskarls
Huskarls are royal bodyguards whose unique skills are often called upon to storm enemy fortresses and constructs. Unlike normal infantry, Huskarls are near immune to missles.

Advantages
Innate -5 ac vs missle weapons
+2 dmg +2 thaco vs constructs

Disadvantages
Need suggestions here


References
http://imdb.com/title/tt0416449/trailers-screenplay-E29552-6-3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation

Sadly, there's not much info on the huskarl. What I have here is from Sikret's knowledge and a unit from age of mythology.

Finally, I would just like to say that that is one heck of a trailer, and i'm definately looking forward to that movie^^

[ October 19, 2006, 17:21: Message edited by: Mongerman ]

Good to finally see someone who's interested in spears.

Can use spear with one hand(possible?)I don't think that's possible, I've tried to SK dual-wielding two-handed swords and the game stopped. You'd need to add some new one-handed spears(different animation also needed)

I remember something of Huskarls in Age of EMPIRES II. Quite old but I remember there was a lot of info there so I'll see if I can dig something up for ya ;)

I really do not like the Huskarl kit, its advantages are not all great to me. I think they are pretty minor bonuses which have limited use in the game whatsover. +2 to hit and dmg to constucts are hardly useful. Golems have pretty bad AC and good resistances anyway. (usually)
And -5 missile AC, while partially useful, is too minor to be a kit advantage. Look at other kits, they offer far greater things. That's my :2c: anyway.

My original suggested advantages for Huskar(l) kit was way better than this. I was thinking of a +8 damage bonus vs. Golems + 25% percent resistance to crushing damage (Golems damage type is crushing). Mongerman sent a more cautious suggestion as a template and as a starting point.

Huskar(l)s existed in the history. They were heavily armored Gothic(?) warriors specialized in attacking strongholds, consturctions and towers. They were practically immune to missiles. I don't have the time at this moment, but I will write more about them in the near future. Any other info others send will be most appreciated, too.

Perhaps Huskar(l)s can have an innate ability to make a temporary Golem Slayer weapon in their inventory which lasts for a few rounds, eh?

My suggestion for a disadvantage for a huskar would be some kind of movement speed reduction, not attack speed, just walking speed. Could be so that Boots of Speed make the walking speed normal?

Spartan looks good to me, but we know that spears are under represented in vanilla game. Add a spartan specific quest, in which a reward will be a powerfull +4 spear, that can be upgraded to +5 in ToB, via Cespenar.

Also, I fail to see why he couldn't wear plate mail armours. After all, he is a fighter. Add some other disadvantage, like not being able to use slashing weapons, due to spartan ethos, or something along this way. Considering the bonus he gets with the spear, and new spears he could oobtain, that would be a fair way to balance a class.

My original suggested advantages for Huskar(l) kit was way better than this. I was thinking of a +8 damage bonus vs. Golems + 25% percent resistance to crushing damage (Golems damage type is crushing). Mongerman sent a more cautious suggestion as a template and as a starting point.

Huskar(l)s existed in the history. They were heavily armored Gothic(?) warriors specialized in attacking strongholds, consturctions and towers. They were practically immune to missiles. I don't have the time at this moment, but I will write more about them in the near future. Any other info others send will be most appreciated, too.

Perhaps Huskar(l)s can have an innate ability to make a temporary Golem Slayer weapon in their inventory which lasts for a few rounds, eh?You've been playing a bit too much Age of Empires II. The definition of a Huscarl depends on whether you are referring to the Norse Huscarl, or the Anglo-Saxon Huscarl. The Norse Huscarl (or Huscarle, or House-carle) was a house servant, carles in Norse society being free men. Huscarls in Anglo-Saxon society were a warrior class, initially belonging solely to the king, having been introduced to Englaland by Cnut. Their purpose was to serve as a bodyguard, and stringent entry requirements ensured that only the best entered their ranks.

Edit: And I should add a more helpful bit, since I'd quite like to see a Huscarl class in BGI/II. IF you want to make a change, and have any suggestions from me, I'd happily provide some.

Could be so that Boots of Speed make the walking speed normal? IMO, that would be a too great disadvantage. It'd also be really annoyng as it'd be like you are under the slow spell all the time.

@Mordokai: I really like your ideas. :thumb:

Can use spear with one hand(possible?)I don't think that's possible, I've tried to SK dual-wielding two-handed swords and the game stopped. You'd need to add some new one-handed spears(different animation also needed)Adding a new weapon animation is a fairly horrific process--this is reason #1 why the groovy BG flaming swords have never turned up in BG2, despite everyone and their dog requesting it. You could try substituting a different weapon animation that works in one hand (DR does this for the Stormlord's half-spear) but it's a really lackluster solution.

Spartan looks good to me, but we know that spears are under represented in vanilla game. Add a spartan specific quest, in which a reward will be a powerfull +4 spear, that can be upgraded to +5 in ToB, via Cespenar.:confused: What do you mean? In SoA, Impaler is 1d6+3, +10 piercing damage, Withering is 1d6+4, +4 poison damage.
In ToB, Ixil's Spike is a powerfull +6 weapon that pins down the enemy and does 1d6+5 extra damage.

Three spears, compared to... how many swords? Sure, you have some selection, but not near as much as with other weaponary. Beside, I've seen to miss this Withering spear, since I don't recall ever having it in my inventory. But still, one +4 weapon is pretty poor choice. If we're having a spear specialist, we also need a variety of spears, with fitting special effects.

Also, Phalanx stance is pretty poor in my eyes. Five point bonus isn't that much, especially if you can't wear the best armours in game. Berserkers only gain +2 to AC, but they also get loads of other bonuses. The Spartan kit needs some working out if you ask me. You can make so the Phalanx stance in a combination of barbarian rage and blade defensive spin, with +5 bonus to AC, inability to move for duration of it, and +2 bonus to CON and STR that lasts for the duration of the stance. Bonuses could improve with leveling up, to +4 to STR and CON, but that is optional choice. And for those that know something of 3.5 edition of d&d rules, yes, I'm using defender of Sealtiel as a model here.

I still think it's a good idea, but I definetly also think that more spears are needed. Vorpal spear meybe? :p

Realistically the Phalanx soldier should be able to wear plate. They were generally heavy armoured with the best up to date technology.

Though I think that Mordakai does give a very interesting option should you not them wearing the many ample platemails in the game.

As I have explained to Mongerman previously in a private discussion, I am really reluctant to add kits to IA unless I found the kit really well-designed and well-balanced. I'm still open to the idea of new kits in general and I think that threads such as this can be helpful. However, custom kits are in danger of being either overpowered or underpowered. I will keep reading all suggestions on this thread. If the final design of the kits (advantages, disadvantages etc...) happens to be "good", I will make the kits in a separate mod. For the kits to be added to IA, they need to be "excellent" (being OK or good doesn't suffice).

Check the links i provided. The typical hoplite armor is breastplate + greaves. hardly full plate armor. The majority of his protection came from the phalanx formation. I deliberately made the bonuses modest for now, so as not to add an overpowered kit to the game.

Your talking about a time when full plate armour wasn't even available for troops. What they are displaying is the height of the armour available at the time though and displaying many of the innovations that would go on to later make full plate possible. The greeks in turn wore some of the most advanced armour to help their troops in their own time before the Romans came along.

Though I am well aware of the group capabilities of the Roman army built around the Phalanx(which is actually technically a unit made up by a number of soldiers and not a single soldier). They had many tactics built around that number involving a variety of weapons.

My two cents on the spear-chucker is that he cannot use blunt weapons at all, can only be proficient in slashing weapons and can only specialize in piercing weapons other than the spear. I have no take on missile weapons, although I see no reason no to treat them like piercing weapons.

I think armor should not be restricted but I disagree with the idea of a general defensive harmony effect to an entire party. I would think that the two characters next to that person could get it on a proximity basis.

I might tinker with the HLA's to eliminate the whirlwinds, as I think of phalanxes and spear-pushers as more deliberate that, say, a Kensai type.

Also, I would make sure that there is no using the spear as a missile weapon (even with magic returning types) as that is not what I envision this class to be about).

For the Huskarl guy, I'm a little at a loss. I don't really see why this guy is any different than any other figher character with regard to armor class against missiles. Is he so bloody dextrous that he has a monk-like dodging ability? If so, how does that work with heavy armor (I'm being realistic here, not BG'istic, so don't tell me that the dex bonus applies to full plate in BG, I know)?

If the idea is to make him a specialist in dealing with constructs (i.e., golems), I don't really think it's enough of a perk to justify a new kit. If you want to open it up a bit and take some poetic license within the general characteristics posted, how about a specialist against large beings of any type plus golems (the bigger they are, the harder they fall). Anything that is a construct or larger than, say, human size would allow for some sort of significant advantage.

Disadvantages would be obvious: penalties against things smaller than, say, an elf. You could keep your missile bonus if you want or, in keeping with the big/small dichotomy, provide a bonus against crushing damage and a penalty against piercing damages (in line with what weapons large/small enemies are likely to use).

Perhaps we can forget the name "Huskar(l)" altogether and start thinking of a "Golem Slayer" kit from scratch. Given the fact that IA adds a number of new and powerful types of golems to the game, such a kit may be attractive for players who play IA.

The ability to create a temporary golem slayer weapon and also the resistance vs. crushing damage would be the kit's main advantages. The kit's disadvantages should also be decided carefully to make sure that it will be a balanced kit (neither underpowered nor overpowered).

A Spartan is born and raised for only one purpose. War. A Spartan is trained from youth to be a disciplined and deadly fighter, and is especially skilled with the spear. In addition, many a comrade in arms have found refuge behind a spartan's phalanx stance.

Advantages
+1 dmg +1 thaco with spear every 3-5 levels
May use 'Phalanx stance once per day. While in phalanx stance, Spartan gains -5 ac, while nearby allies gain -2 ac
Can use spear with one hand(possible?)

Disadvantages
May not wear plate mail
Can only spec in weapons other then spear.
I wouldn't have the +1 every 3 levels- this gives them the offensive ability of a Kensai, but with armour. Delay it to either every 5 or 4 levels, depending on how strong the other advantages are.

Phalanx stance appears to be quite a defensive posture, so I'd prevent movement while using it as a disadvantage. In return, it could also provide immunity to fear and confusion-type effects. Resistance to Wing Buffets would also fit in, though I'm not sure if this is too much. Similarly, I cannot see any justification for immunity to level drain and imprisonment, although these would be decent advantages (OTOH, I can't see why a Babarian's rage would help against these either). The AC bonus to allies could have the effect of Defensive Harmony with a slightly smaller area of effect.

The description of being raised soley for war is pretty cool, but I don't feel the kit advantages reflect this. However, I'm not sure how best to represent this.