Ok, I have a little too much time on my hands. I have to. I decided that when I reached the pocket plane, I would find out of the three male NPC's who would end up the best "tank" between the following...

Saervok
Minsc
Anomen

I had the three equipped as follows:

Saervok weilding Two handed sword +3, wearing Gorgon Plate +4

Minsc weilding Lilacor wearing full plate +2

Anomen wearing Armor of the Hart, weilding Hammer of thunderbolts +3 (Ano, CN)

I decided to conduct a bit of a "pit fight", one on one between these three NPC's...the rules, nothing but your weapon and armor, no healing or other spells during combat, no cheats....

I put Anomen agaist Minsc, and allowed Minsc to take the first shot. Anomen won. He struck down Minsc in the matter of seconds. I placed Saervok against Minsc, Saervok won. So, It was between Anomen and Saervok.

The Anomen/Saervok battle was interesting indeed, they were toe to toe, blow for blow, each other's equals. Both severely wounded, and down to what seemed to be the last blow, Anomen got it in and Saervok lie dead at his feet. Wondering if the outcome would be different, I put the two against each other a second time, and Anomen won again.

My conclusions...If you are looking for the best most powerful tank out there, take CN Anomen, and then do what I normally do, and equip him with the Crom Faeyr, Armor of the Hart, and you can literally turn him into a killing machine. BTW, if you didn't know this, Ano can grand master in weapons, and by the time we reach Amkethran, I usually have him Grand mastered in warhammers, allowing him to use Yaga-Sura's too. Ano and Saervok have some good game banters too, Ones of taking each others eyes out.

Just thought this interesting.

What about our mad dwarwen berserker? Considered pitting him agains Anomen? :)

Then again Ano is lucky indeed that Sarevok did not score a Death Bringer Asault. :D It wouldn'T be pretty otherwise. :shake:

Indeed, Deathbringer would have splattered him badly.

So, there is no best tank. It is just some luck?

BTW, Korgan dual-wielding CF and that vorpal, regenrating ToB axe, all TRUE GM in them, with his berserk...hmm he is formidable too!

But it still seems Minsc is the weakest? Give him a vorpal Two hander too! And watch heads drop!

yeah, i was wondering that already, what about Korgan?

Heck, you have to consider Keldorn too. Holy Avenger +6 anyone?

I think the problem with this analysis is that the damage you do is heavily dependent on your strength. Anyone wielding Crom Faeyr has a significant advantage over someone who isn't simply because of that humongous +14 damage modifier for a 25 strength. So yeah, I imagine that Korgan dual wielding the AotU + CF would be able to take on just about anybody. But similarly, if you invested the necessary points in axes and war hammers with MInsc, and similarly equipped him, I think you'd find that the same would apply to him.

To really do it fairly, you'd have to use SK to give everyone the same proficiencies, stength, armor, and the same weapon. You'd probably have to modify the dexterity so the more dextrous characters wouldn't get bonuses to AC for dexterity too. Of course, if you do that, then there is no question who would win over a large number of trials - the character with the most hitpoints obviously. The only other X-factors to consider are special abilities, and in that we'd have to consider Korgan's berserk, Minsc's berserk, and Sarevok's Deathbringer Assault. Of those, Korgan and Minsc probably are more useful, even though they don't do as much damage as Sarevok's because you get the ability on command.

Anyway, for my money - just going on the most hp will outlast other most of the time, my money is on Sarevok.

I am also wondering where Keldorn and Korgan are.

Hmm, from my own experience: Kogan with that Vorpal axe+5, which name no one can remember, and with good armor can and will hack trough anything, his berserk giving him the final edge in tight places. Even without anyt super equipment, he can sweep the floor with just about anything.
I have very positive experiences about him, as well as Keldorn.

yeah, i was wondering that already, what about Korgan? I am also wondering where Keldorn and Korgan are. :rolleyes: Could they be *gasp* not in Lady Constance's party up to that point? :p And thus not even for testing at the moment? Ye of much pickyness. :shake:

If you want to make a comparison of the others, go ahead and do it, don't just b**** about how they're not included. Lazy bums. ;)

Who are you calling laz....eh, I can't be bothered arguing with you about it. :p

^Easy, guys! Do not start a fight. :smash:

Keldorn can be a tank as well, I guess, once he has Bracers of Dexterity.

That vorpal axe was axe of unyielding or something like that?

Korgan's major bonus in his usefullness is his dwarven saving throw bonuses, he has the best saving throws and thus much more durable against enemies with spells and special powers. He definitely is a tank!

Though if you want the best tank for defense, good old Jaheira is the best candidate, with her Ironskins, lowest AC, she is hard to kill. She is rather weak on the offense, but covers up the fact with her summons and many many useful spells like IPlague and CDoom, for instance. And she can heal. And she can cast a HARM spell! Harm spell will instantly reduce the victim down to 1 HP, no saving throw is allowed, though MR can and will stop it cold.

What say you for good old Jaheira? (please do not start bashing, I do fancy her)

Keldorn can be a tank as well, I guess, once he has Bracers of Dexterity.Why? Anomen didn't and he apparently kicked booty across the pocket plane. :lol:

But, I agree with Fel. Lady C most likely only had Minsc, Anomen and Sarevok in her party and probably didn't care about the others to summon them.

But..but...to not include Korgan? I've seen him wipe out an army all by himself in ToB. Yaga Shura's (sp?) minions in fact. He is absouletly my favorite! Now I'll have to pull ToB out and try him against the others.

Aldeth, if you made them the same way with SK, then it would be luck. You keep their stats, which is what makes them different, but equip the same weapons and armour.

Korgan is damned Destructive. He is the one I'm wondering how he fairs. I know that Keldorn's class and Kit give him certain broad superiorities but I think between the Axe of Unyielding's affects and Korgan's starting point of 5 in Axe's could match him. Even with lesser Axe's he can do a lot and he has two ways to go that you can set him up for early on. Dual Wielding and Sword and shield.

Sword and shield he can get some serious Armor ratings going because he does have one of the better dexterity scores in the game. Something like the Sentinel in his hand is almost tailor made for this.

Dual Wielding he's got the bonus of Only needing a single proficiency which he already has 5 in for A few differen't +3 axe's that most carry extra special damage. Sadly his alignment stops him from wielding Azure Edge...

I may just have to try this one some time.

Edit: Though I will point out that in Lady Constance test that Anomen did have 1 better ac. Though that really doesn't matter all that much at high level.

I have never had Korgan do Sword and Shield. I always think of him and axes. Wonder what kind of killing machine he would be? His defense would be better but would his offense?

Lady Constance has brought a new light upon this game. Set your party members at each other. Who is the better mage? :doh: Dumb question: Edwin although ..er :yot:

Jaheira and Haer'Dalis are hands down the best tanks in BG2. Iron Skins, Stone Skins, PFMW.....

I'd still back Jaheira over any of them at the start of ToB, unless they had vorpal weapons.

Iron Skins turns the tide of that battle considerable, since it's a bit inaccurate to say that instant-cast defensive spells are not permitted for a tanking test. Being able to ignore hits for a round or two (even Deathbringer Assault, IIRC) makes a big, big difference as far as survivability is concerned.

And as Drew has mentioned, Haer'Dalis (or any Blade, for that matter) can tank with the best of them as well. HP doesn't matter if you can't be hurt.

Hell, if the definition of 'tank' doesn't include the ability to cause melee damage, then I reckon Edwin is the best tank in BG2.

Prine, if we follow Lady Constance's rule we can't use Edwin. We'll have to start our own thread for that one. :)

Sword and Shield is just the name of the style. I still have him wielding an Axe. I have him wielding Frost Reaver and the Sentinel with two dots in the style as well as his customary 5 in axes. he does some serious tanking. Giving and Recieving. Thanks to having the lowest AC in my current party he's wearing the gauntlets of Dexterity. He's wearing Gorgon's plate and the Helm of Balduran as well. Currently has -11 AC. I'm half way through SoA. Had to take an early run through the Underdark after Imoen and now backtracking through a bunch of quests in chapter 6 instead.

which by the way the extra damage does go through iron skins as do other abilities. so I cannot imagine it stopping death bringer assault. I could be wrong though. That is something that would have to be tested.

Heh, I know. But we couldn't use Haer'Dalis either, or Jaheira's ironskins. If you allow instant cast defensive spells then you have to allow sequencers and contingencies. You can turn a pure magic-user into el supremo tank just by loading them up with mirror images and stoneskins and scripting them to keep both active at any given time, plus PFMW if they actually do take damage.

Sword and shield style isn't really worth putting points into. It doesn't increase your general AC, only missile weapon AC.

@ Starwalker

Deathbringer assault gets blocked by stoneskin.I have seen it in one of my games.It is considered pure physical damage thats why it doesn't pass through stoneskins-ironskins.

Missile Weapon AC is still something. And it does give a benefit when your using the smaller shields which don't give you any particular benefit against missile attacks anyway.

@theTruth

Thank you. I'd never tried.

Sentinel is a medium shield. But anyway, missile attacks in BG2 generally aren't very dangerous. I'd rather spend the proficiency points on another weapon specialisation.

Of the three originally mentioned, I'm definitely picking Sarevok. Deathbringer assault is something you do NOT want to mess around with...heck, it's the only reason why I'm giving him the 'Helm of CHarm' protection, in case some lousy succubus charms him while wielding the Ravager+6.....

I have to agree though...Jaheira's THE best tank in the game. I don't know about you guys though, but she seems to survive a LOT more battles than Korgan.

To prove my point, in that Yaga Shura battle, I was going toe to toe with Shura himself, Sarevok and the others were busy handling mages and archers. I carelessly left Jaheira alone (buffed of course...not THAT careless) and in horror, watched as three giants decide to gang bang her with sledgehammers.

For some reason, my half orc Barb PC (going 1 on 1 against Yaga Shura) seemed to be MORE in trouble than Jaheira (barely got a serious scratch).

I really wished I had that screenshot...the save's overwritten. :(

PS: Kinda OT....but I figured, that a F/C Half Orc with 16 dex, 19 str and cons WILL be the best tank after/next to Jaheira....but unlike our Harper lass, he can do more damage than her (FoA + Crom Faeyr + G. WHirlwind = FUN!)

Like I said before, Jaheira is the best defensive tank, but our question is, if I am not mistaken, who is the most offensively powerful tank, damage/kill wise?

Dual wielding Korgan is scary. But Sarevok will instantly kill most of the things when he scores a DBA. They are both big nasty boys you won'T want to mess uo with!

Then Anomen has HARM spell like Jaheira, but he has no Ironskins so he is %100 likely to be disrupted in melee when he tries to cast it. It has 1 round casting time IIRC. Korgan or Sarevok will SURELY hit him no matter how good his AC is. If you allow instant buffs, armor of faith can give Ano a good defense, and he is no weakling when HP is the concern. Then again a lucky DBA will instantly end the battle, and possibly it will be a really gory death=good bye to Ano forever. :wail:

I'm with Drew. Jaheira and Haer'Dalis (and Solaufein) are the best tanks.

(None of the three NPCs in the original post are tanks anyway. They're DDs. How is it possible to confuse the two?)

Just to remind folks; Lady Constance set up some very specific rules.

the rules, nothing but your weapon and armor, no healing or other spells during combat, no cheats....We have, as is normal in these threads, traveled a distance from the original post.

I am curious if any one has done a lab test such as Lady Constance has. Have you actually had whoever your favorite is go toe to toe with one of the others? I haven't.

what is the criteria for a tank? I haven't played with the Solaufein mod but why is Jaheira or Haer'Dalis a tank but not Minsc, Sarevok or Annomen? I really would like to know.

Spells. Non-casters depend on their AC to avoid physical damage and their HP to absorb it. Fighter-caster hybrids also have spells like stoneskins, mirror image and protection from magical weapons, which make them partially or entirely immune to physical attacks regardless of their AC/HP. This is particularly important for the tough enemies, who have THAC0 low enough so as to render AC worthless.

In response to this now highly viewed thread, I went back and did something else... I included many of those which were not included when I first performed this... and I made it entirely equal in all aspects. So this time around the rules are...

No spellcasting
No shields
No SK'ing of stats

Each fighter (and I am using those generally considered to be fighters of some sort even if they are dual class) are equipped with the following...

A plain ordinary plate mail without magic properties and a non magic weapon of their proficency.

When I did the Anomen, Minsc, Sarevok fights before, I had them similarily equipped, here they are all equipped the same...

Here are some of the results:
Anomen/Keldorn .... Anomen
Anomen/Minsc .... Minsc
Misnc/Sarevok .... draw, they knocked each other unconscious and would not kill each other
Misnc/Korgan..... Minsc
Minsc/Jaheria .....Jaheria

What did my conclusions find? They found that equipping the NPC's like I did, with non magical weapons and the same non magical armor, that the variant was like this...

With Anomen and Keldorn, both had natural unequipped AC's of 10, and three with their Armors on. So this makes them equal in every way, as they are also of the same race. How did Anomen win this? He won because he has an ever so slight better dexterity than Keldorn. Anomen's is 10, Keldorn's is 9, and if I believe correctly, Ano also had slightly more hit points.

The Minsc/Sarevok battle ended like it did, because there again you are looking at two NPC's who are equals. Both have an unarmored AC of 7, and again like Anomen and Keldorn of the same race, but they ended in a draw. Minsc is slightly stronger than Sarevok, but Sarevok has a higher dexterity.

Jaheria faced Minsc and won the battle for two reasons. Because of being a half elf, she had not only an unarmored AC of 6, but a dexterity bonus for being part elven.

Korgan fated the worst equipped as such, and no one really feared him unless they wanted to put their kneecaps at his mercy, as all the other NPC's defeated him. He was also the only player to turn hostile (red) by being attacked by other NPC's, the others stayed green, beat the crap out of each other and fell back in line. Like, Hey, I always wanted to do that!

One other thing I conducted...unarmed fighting. No armor nor weapons, fists only. No one dies that way. You just get knocked senseless. There it was much more of a who has the most hit points battle than it is who has higher AC, ad when I put Anomen/Minsc against each other, they were both KO'd.

One thing that I did realize by doing this, equipment is everything. Take away guantlets, belts, or weapons which modify strength or dexterity, and SK and you have some fairly well rounded out equal characters. The lowest AC I ever had any single NPC have was with Ano. He was equipped as following (at level 25) :

Ferra's Diamond ( from a mod)
Improved Cloak of Protection +2
Boots of Speed
Crom Faeyr
Shield of the Order +4
Golden girdle
Holy ring ( the one given to him by his god)
Ring of Gaxx
Helm of glory
which if I recall correctly = AC -18

The lowest I ever seen Jaheria's AC was -11 or -13, and I have never had Minsc's under -10.

Sarevok is stronger than Minsc (18/00 versus 18/93). Plus his mastery in two-handed sword should give him two more points of damage per hit.

Anomen is much stronger than Keldorn AND can obtain mastery in his weapons -- these two things lead for a big advantage for Anomen (although at higher levels the 'to hit' advantage of Keldorn should start to dominate). The difference in dexterity is not a factor (dex doesn't start helping until 15 and higher).

Unless you do several battles there is really not much you can infer. A single battle victory can simply be luck. By not allowing spells or individual special abilities you are actually handicapping the character (the true tanking ability lies in the entire package).

Strength bonuses:

Sarevok 18/00 +3 to hit, +6 damage (THAC0 -3)
Minsc 18/93 +2 to hit, +5 damage (THAC0 0)
Korgan 18/77 +2 to hit, +4 damage (THAC0 -2)
Anomen 18/52 +2 to hit, +3 damage (THAC0 4)
Keldorn 17 +1 to hit, +1 damage (THAC0 1)
Valygar 17 +1 to hit, +1 damage (THAC0 1)
Mazzy 15 no bonus (THAC0 0)
Jaheira 15 no bonus (THAC0 6)

Edit: Added THAC0. The THAC0 score assumes highest specialization with only strength bonuses and an NPC at 2,950,000 xp.

Weapon Specialization (unless you get the Grand Mastery fix):

* no bonuses
** +½ attack, +1 to hit, +2 damage
*** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +2 damage
**** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +3 damage
***** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +4 damage

Anomen, Saverok, Mazzy, and Korgan can obtain *****.
Keldorn, Jaheira, Minsc, and Valgar can only obtain **.
With the grand mastery patch, add one point to hit and damage for *** and above. Also ***** receives an additional ½ attack.

[ March 10, 2006, 17:27: Message edited by: T2Bruno ]

Oh, before I forget,

I believe the only true match for Korgan in battle done like this with such specific rules may possibly be Mazzy Fentan. I would have to try that fight, as I do remember her in the Copper Coronet in the pits with Gorf the Squisher, and she took out the Ogre singlehandedly.

I am impressed Lady Constance. As far as I am concerned you have proven that it is all in how the player handles the characters.

The developers created well balanced characters and left it up to the players to go about turning them into the beings that could defeat the dark evil that threaten Faerun.

I wonder if they knew that so many years later we'd be sitting around arguing about who is the best what. :roll:

Nakia,

That was what I was initially getting at. That the NPC's are only as good as you make them out or equip them to be.

I have played using every single NPC along the way in different games. People argue that the best NPC cleric is Viconia, if it is true, I have yet to see it, as unlike Anomen or Jaheria (who everyone well knows is a druid and not a cleric) , Viconia cannot wear plate mails, and even with some of the best of weapons she ends up dead way easier than Anomen or Jaheria.

Another good point someone brought up. Jaheria's use of Ironskin. Cernd has that ability also. Does it make him the ultimate warrior? Heck no, he is as wishy washy as ever, and has way fewer armor options than Jaheria.

If I had choice of only taking one ranger, it would be Minsc over Valygar any day of the week.

As far as thieves are concerned , while Yoshimo is quite the thief in the latter stages of SoA, he ends up dead. By the time you rescue Immy, her thieving skills are quite sufficent, and you can make Nalia a fairly decent thief using the gloves of pickpocketing/potions of master thievery, and making sure she knows the spell knock.

Mages? While Edwin is the "ultimate" of mages available, he does not always meld into some parties well. If you're playing a paladin, he's someone you definitely DON'T want around. Immy and Nalia both can usually cast 8th level spells by the end of SoA and sometimes 9th. It is beautiful to be able to maze Irenicus.

Now this is enitrely my own opinion...If I had to chose between Keldorn and Anomen, with Anomen being LG, I'd taken Anomen any day over Keldorn. At higher levels, Anomen can turn undead something fierce, the advantage/disadvantage? Anomen has all those wonderful priest spells, like restoration and ressurection. Disadvantage, if there really is one? He cannot weild Carsomyr, the Holy Avenger. I joke about the two. Is Keldorn secretly Ano's dad? Keldorn seems like he is just an older version of Anomen.

Then comes the other NPC's who have slightly different bakgrounds, Mazzy (who can become quite strong) and Aerie. Aerie is a cleric mage, who is not all that impressive if you ask me, and being avariel may give her bonuses as other elves, but her constitution seems extremly weak. Jan I have played with once. Haer Daelis is only ever incorporated into my party for comic relief (although his whirlwind attack is very good)

And the two true "fighters" of the game of the NPC's are Korgan and Sarevok, and my answer to that is take your brother. He is the overall better fighter.

Your NPC's are what you make them to be. Just if I were asked who had the best romance in the game, I would say Jaheria. I have played that through also as a male PC, although I had that funny MILF factor feeling going on, as she was supposed to be your guardian, followed by Anomen for female PC's, Aerie's is annoying IMO. Whining about her wings all the time.

The game creators put much effort and work into the game concept...

Anomen has better dex than Keldorn, a 10 vs 9, BUT these two scores are very same according to pure AD&D. Well, at least as long as we are talking about combat. A dex 10 character will be better in some non-weapon proficiencies than a dex 9 one, BUT they will be equals in combat, no AC, suprise, saving throw, or missile attack adjustments. So I guess Ano won as he had a little extra HP, plus IIRC Keldorn has 17 STR? 18/XX is MUCH better than 17.

After playing MMOs my opinion of the term 'tank' has changed. In my eyes a tank is somebody whose primary role is NOT damage, but taking damage for the party. This usually means they have a damage mitigation ability, a high armor class, a high amount of health and the ability to get the enemy's attention - it has NOTHING to do with their damage potential.

Given the 3 choices I would say Sarevok since spellcasting has been taken out of the equation - thus Anomen is the worst choice of all 3.

Viconia cannot wear plate mailsThis isn't a class restriction, it's a STR restriction. Give her any STR booster and she can wear plate mail just fine.

By the time you rescue Immy, her thieving skills are quite sufficent, and you can make Nalia a fairly decent thief using the gloves of pickpocketing/potions of master thievery, and making sure she knows the spell knock.I wouldn't call Imoen or Nalia thieves so much as mages with the ability to disarm traps and pick locks. Nalia is terrible even at that; what kind of a mage/thief has to waste memorisation slots on knock? Or quaff valuable potions just to disarm a trap? If they can't backstab worth a damn, they aren't thieves in my book. Jan is better than either of the two as thieving goes, but I usually use Yoshimo, just because he's a good thief and I like him.

While Edwin is the "ultimate" of mages available, he does not always meld into some parties well.He works as well as any other evil character in any party that doesn't contain Minsc. He also gets three bonus memorisation slots per spell level over any other NPC mage. As soon as he hits 18th level he has four level nine slots. Insane.

Keldorn seems like he is just an older version of Anomen.Come on, the two are nothing alike. Keldorn is far more knightly and agreeable in general than Anomen. Carsomyr aside, his dispel magic is superior to any castable version, but yes, I'd agree that Anomen has more raw power.

Aerie is a cleric mage, who is not all that impressive if you ask meCleric/mages as a class are absolutely devastating. But I find Aerie too unbearable to keep in a group for long.

Some quick corrections:
... but a dexterity bonus for being part elven. Nope. Only pure elves and halflings get a dexterity bonus, and even then they will have what you see on the record sheet.
**** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +3 damage
***** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +4 damage Not quite. The only bonus you get for going from *** to **** is a -1 bonus to weapon speed, so it would really be like this (the table is on p.237 of the manual):

* no bonuses
** +½ attack, +1 to hit, +2 damage
*** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +2 damage
**** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +2 damage
***** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +3 damage

I've read in several places the weapon specialization table in the manual was wrong -- although the only one I can list for now is the Dan Simpson FAQ. Either way, an extra hit point of damage isn't much.

Hmm, checked the 2DA file and you were right. You also get another -2 bonus to speed factor for the fifth point, making it -3 total. I guess even a veteran can learn things. :rolling:

So by just putting two points to two-handed weapon style, Sarevok has a speed of ZERO for Gram the Sword of Grief and the Psion's Blade with +10 to hit, +15 damage...wow. One more point in Halberds and Ravager +6 has a speed of 1. Plus that deathbringer assault of his (IIRC 5% change of 200 hp damage).

Court is adjourned -- Sarevok wins.

3% chance for 200 extra damage plus stun for 12 secs

Only %3? But then again when it happens it ends the battle completely. Nasty that! Sarevok is definitely dangerous in combat!

I remember once I wanted to see how much damage Sarevok can do against my ranger/cleric with 80% physical resistance
The fight went something like that
5 damage
5 damage
5 damage
deathbringer assault 40 damge
5 damage
deathbringer assault 40 damge
my char dies
:(

don't mess with Sarevok :)

A tank is somebody who can stand at the front of your party and take on any fight pretty much at any time. This means they are usually a fighter. They can give and recieve hits while others support them. Sounds like this translates the same into MMORPG's.

Haer Dalis doesn't count unless you want to rest every bit and memorize every ambush point. But still in a true sense he's not really tanking. Just taking advantage of the system. Try going fully into combat and having him stand on the front lines taking hits while Combat has already started. until you can do something like Chain Contingency Protection from Magic Weapons with Iron Skin and mirror image all in one. He's not going to make the battle. Even with his defensive spin. HIs problem is if somebody hits through it they damn near obliterate him in one hit. Two good hits from anything you really want protection from and he is often toast. Not to mention that those same types generally have either a way to bypass things like non-physical hits from magic or they strip magical protections. Specially when it comes to certain Mods.

A Tank is an all around package. They don't need to do devestating damage to stay alive. These are characters you would consider toe to toeing with a spell casting mage until said protections go away if you have to. There are very few characters that will do this just at any possible time. Equipment is an added factor. But none of them are things that need to buff up. Spells do change the equation a bit. But if you need to spend several rounds of combat to get your tank ready. Then somebody is going to have to stand there and take the blows until you do. Occassionally tanks will get into trouble or have something that can seriously hurt them. That's why it's good to have two of them. One drops back. The other fills the gap while you heal and deal with the problem.

magic classes are massive damage dealers at higher levels. If they have time and preperation they can stand up to something until their spells run out But these are not true tanks. Back in my MuD days we called this "playing tank" because few could do that at any time. And even fewer could do it for very long.

Defensive spin is nice and a real bonus. But it always seemed to be my biggest hindrence in the fights that really mattered because something would be able to hit through it. This take Haer Dalis out of the race. He can't take hits. Unless your fully prepared your scrambling to heal him or just pray it ends before he is dead so he can run away or hope you have a spell that can mitigate the damage a little longer. And none of this takes away from the fact that to cast several spells upon him you need several rounds.

Constance tests for the best tank were fair. They just need repeated a few times to show an overall average. Though as she has said and others have said in this thread and others. The Equipment means a lot.

People complain that Viconia needs a strength item which is easy to get early on. But I never hear people complain that Jan Jansen needs a strength item to carry other thing than his own damned starting equipment and if you make a few bruisers then you can't even carry those. Jan Jansen has the lowest strength in the core characters and doesn't even get a single stat for his own classes at a maximum rating when he is a prime choice to show off the special nature of gnomes if he had an intelligence of 19 to go with that low strength. his only real bonus is that the other three thieves in the game either are mediocre or die horribly half way through. That really sucks as a selling point if you ask me.

Thank you starwalker for that explanation. I was beginning to think that the term 'tank' had changed in meaning from when I first came on SP. The way I was taught was keep your spellcasters back and your tanks in the front.

Your welcome. I used to love to Mud and i love spell casters most of the time. The hardest problem was always the roaming monsters that were never in the same exact place unless you got real lucky and could run across you the way you would over a Mob(monster). The Aggressive ones were the worst. Because you either had your protections up from what you were doing already or you ran the hell away and hoped it didn't chase you down and kill you.

The Tanks would just cut them down as long as they weren't too far over their power level. Few casters were capable of that. The support chars were in between the tanks and the the casters in ability. But they were the ones that worked best in backup roles. They'd help fight well but they'd heal or provide other support to make fights easier and keep the tanks doing their job quicker, longer, better.

Many of the support guys were downright dangerous themselves. They never quite matched a tank but they got really good at running things on their own a lot faster than the casters. Some of them would even get so big that they'd just outright become tanks themselves or they were mixed with tank types to get the best of both. This applies to Anomen really. He's got the tank in the fighter. The support and protection from being a cleric. But he never does hit quite the level of the nastiness of the full on tanks which is often how it goes. But he's certainly got more than any support class.

Jaheira is also of this group but luckily she gets the benefit of the full fighter powers. She just doesn't get the levels. Otherwise she would deal as much damage as any of the fighters and do a fair ammount of her own support work at the same time. Her classes just need to manage to keep up with the rest to manage it. Which means a lot more work.

Korgan's the best pure tank all other things aside, because of his rage ability, he simply eats non damage dealing spell effects like maze, hold person and the such. Big scary Kangaxx and his unlimited Imprisonment? No problem for Korgan. Annoying Vampires and their level drain/domination? No problem for Korgan. Shadow Dragon and its level draining breath attack? Well you know...

I love Korgan for his high HP, low saving throws and the ability to make himself immune to most "Oh Crap" spells/abilities.

Let's be blunt: the only reason people believe fighters are the only true tanks is because it's a mindset. If you're fighting something with a THAC0 equal to or lower than your AC, you will be hit every time, which means that your fighter's tanking ability extends to their maximum HP and that's it.

The best tank in BG2 (no, I don't care about MUDs or other games or whatever) is the one who never gets hit. That's a magic-user. You don't need to memorise every ambush point or spend round upon round buffing up. You don't need to rest constantly, not that a fighter who takes over two hundred damage per fight would fare much better in that regard. Keep stoneskin up at all times, it lasts eight hours; cast mirror image at the start of the fight, and with that you have a better tank than any pure fighter could ever be. Those two spells plus protection from magical weapons as a panic button, nobody will even come close to killing you. I would never consider using a pure fighter to tank if my protagonist was a fighter/mage.

I'm constantly in situations where my magic-user is being attacked by four or five enemies at once. If Korgan or Anomen were in the same situation they'd be chopped into kibble. The ability to survive overpowering odds in this game is in magic, not some one-trick-pony pure fighter.

Prine, see starwalker's comment about "playing tank". :heh:
If you're fighting something with a THAC0 equal to or lower than your AC, ... ... then either you're playing a very messed up game, or you don't know how to handle tanking. :p Insane difficulty is just that; insane. I play on core because it's the way it's meant to be played. You've got a point about the F/M - Stoneskin and such are great for a tank - but AC is (or at least should be) a factor. When you've got someone who's barely getting hit at all without spells (buffs), that's your tank.

On a personal note, I'm getting rather disgusted at how un-tank even a high-level monk is. Sure, he can dish out the damage like nobody's business, but even at level 20 (AC -8) he's getting smacked around a bit too much in the Underdark by all those high-level drow with +5 weapons. So far I haven't had to have Imoen "play tank" to save his a$$ even when he's taking on five at a time on his own, and hopefully I won't have to. I just can't wait to get out and start doing all those quests I left behind to get to Imoen quicker. :evil:

AC is a chance to avoid damage, whereas defensive spells are guaranteed protection; that being said, characters like Jaheira or Haer'Dalis or a fighter/mage have access to both, anyway.

But the reason I consider magic-users so much better at tanking than fighters is because, practicably speaking, their ability doesn't decline. A tank who depends on AC gradually gets hit more and more as the THAC0 of whatever they're fighting increases. A magic-user can slough off the physical attacks of an orc or a dragon with equal ease.

I typically find when I have my mages wasting spells on defense, I'm doing something wrong. Mages provide much better defense for the rest of the party when they don't waste time memorizing defensive spells. Stone Skins, Mantles and the likes are much better when they're turned into Greater Malison, Emotion Hoplessness, Mordi's Sword, Projected Image, etc...

A dead mage isn't much use to anyone.

I don't use tactics or anything quite that nasty, but even UB's elementary improved targeting means that I can't count on my mage never being attacked. No way I'd leave a mage unprotected, even if he were watching the battle through binoculars from half a mile away.

I rarely ever let myself get caught in the open (and those fights where you are tend to be rather easy). I operate by clogging doorways with summoned monsters (or using them as mage fodder) while my mages blast away. Once the summons go down, I clog the door way with my melee bashers, that allows for Nalia, Viccy and Imoen to cast unmolested and allows for the fewest monsters possible to concentrate on my fighters (against strong melee fighters I make every use of slow and defensive harmony).

Nalia usually carries one stoneskin for cheese tactics (like against the Iron Golem in her keep) or to defang backstabs.

A magic-user can slough off the physical attacks of an orc or a dragon with equal ease. Ah, but a fighter doesn't have to "slough off" an orc's attacks at all; he can just avoid them. Meanwhile, the mage's Stoneskin is getting battered by the puny wretch's feeble attacks the same as if it were a dragon clawing at him. No matter which way you go, it's a double-edged blade. I just happen to think that a warrior can wield that blade better than a mage. :hahaerr: ;)
No way I'd leave a mage unprotected, even if he were watching the battle through binoculars from half a mile away. Man, I know what you mean. :heh: I just did the Beholder city a few hours ago, and they were shooting rays through walls to Imoen at the entrance while Chavesh (my monk) took them on all the way across the map. :rolleyes: I'm just glad I saw it and stuck the Cloak of Mirroring on her in time. Still, fat lot of good it did me to try to keep her out of harm's way. :shake:

Man, I know what you mean. [heh] I just did the Beholder city a few hours ago, and they were shooting rays through walls to Imoen at the entrance while Chavesh (my monk) took them on all the way across the map. [Roll Eyes] I'm just glad I saw it and stuck the Cloak of Mirroring on her in time. Still, fat lot of good it did me to try to keep her out of harm's way. [grinning, shaking head]
how do Beholders shoot rays through walls? That seems to take a lot of the tactics out of strategic positioning. I like to cast mass invis in Beholder areas and then just have whoever has the Shield of Balduran go "exploring".

how do Beholders shoot rays through walls? That seems to take a lot of the tactics out of strategic positioning. You got me. All I know is that one of the rays shot west-by-northwest when my monk was right on top of the beholders. Then I see "Imoen - Save vs. Spell", and I watch the next one that shoots off to nowhere through three walls and equip the CoM just before it hits Immy. :rolleyes:

And the SoB (hehehe) isn't an option when my party consists of only Immy and a monk. ;)

Ah, but a fighter doesn't have to "slough off" an orc's attacks at all; he can just avoid them. Meanwhile, the mage's Stoneskin is getting battered by the puny wretch's feeble attacks the same as if it were a dragon clawing at him.Yeah, this is true. Makes logistical sense to use AC when possible, but you understand my point about how indiscriminately powerful defensive spells are.

I operate by clogging doorways with summoned monsters (or using them as mage fodder) while my mages blast away.If there's a doorway between you and your enemy, you might as well just toss a death fog into the room and shut the door. But most of the fights in the game don't have convenient doorways. Beholders, demons, dragons, etc.

The spellcasting-through-terrain targeting thing is a stupid bug that I can't really figure out. I've seen beholders do it too, and it happens elsewhere. There's a trapped room in the Spellhold maze where you get locked in with umber hulks, if you cast knock on the door your character will instead fire the spell off into the northern wall. I don't know.

If there's a doorway between you and your enemy, you might as well just toss a death fog into the room and shut the door. But most of the fights in the game don't have convenient doorways. Beholders, demons, dragons, etc.
Hallways work just as well, any constricted area. The Beholder tunnels work perfectly, though I perfer to use summoned monsters and an invisible rouge (as a scout) to deal with beholders (if I'm not using my cheesy shield), the Illithid lairs work well also. As for Dragons, if the dragon starts chasing a mage, all the better, make sure the mage is hasted and have them run like hell, gives your fighter a breather from tanking. I love exploiting monsters who case mages :D

As for a lot of the demon fights, most of them have a narrowed corridor nearby which I can lure them down to if I don't have my don't just bum rush with by fighters protected from evil (curtesy of my Cavalier) or make old Korgan charge demons while enraged to absorb the gaze attacks and follow up with my other fighters. Pit fiends are relatively easy to trap and then bash with the flail of ages to make sure they don't go anywhere.

Actually it takes one hell of a thaco to hit through anything every time just because it's lower. Unless your taking the die roll out of it. A Thaco is just a base number for hitting. That is it. a person with a -1 thaco against a person with -11 ac still needs to roll at least a 10. Higher if they have things that modify the dice rolls to further negatives such as particular belts or the advantages of certain kinds of armor for example.

Against a sword that 10 that needs to be rolled suddenly becomes a 14 in full platemail. One thing that AD&D always took into account for is no matter the odds there has always been possible for that miraculous devestating blow. This is in the natural 20. It's enhanced by the fighting styles of Two handed weapon style and single weapon style. Increasing that margin. Has anybody ever bothered to even check if some of the biggest baddy's are even taking advantage of this little bonus the characters get? I wouldn't be surprised if some of the nastiest are.

You talk about stone skin being so great but most of the tank capable types at high level will rip through stone/iron skin in a round or so. That's the beauty of whirlwind. Even without it many can do away with it in a matter of two the way many here profess that dual wielding is everything.

Turning everything into a critical hit is nice too. Those can be some powerful blows.

And on top of that they can't just be stripped of their protections in one or two quick spells. We're just lucky that most scripts don't even try to take advantage of that fact and do to us what we do to enemy mages time and again that your swearing is such power at tanking.

If it was such a power at Tanking why would we solve most of them so easily? Why aren't many of the enemies that try such tricks harder than they are if this is the ultimate tanking technique? it doesn't stand up. It's not a true tank. It's playing at it until their spells fail them.

When I get really bored and am not feeling too particularly devestated by an enemies spells do you know what I do to these types? I take my tanks I throw them into battle and I wait for their wonderful spell protections to end or be worn away. Just mercilessly smacking the crap out of them with nothing more than weapons until the enemy mage is dead.

That is of course after I wipe out their nice little friends first just to make them feel like they are accomplishing something with their defenses first.

Yeah, this is true. Makes logistical sense to use AC when possible, but you understand my point about how indiscriminately powerful defensive spells are. Indeed I do. Playing an F/M/T solo will do that. ;)

a person with a -1 thaco against a person with -11 ac still needs to roll at least a 10. I believe Prine was talking about a THAC0 equal to or lower than your AC, as in -11 THAC0 vs. -11 AC or something like that. In that case you'd be hit 95% of the time (with critical misses still applying), but such a situation should not be happening unless you screwed up either by making it more difficult than it should be (core, people! :shake: ) or neglecting your tank.

EDIT:
For example, most dragons have THAC0s under -10 thanks to having 25 STR. Abazigal takes the prize so far with an adjusted THAC0 (STR, Gram the Sword of Grief, and proficiency) of -22.

EDIT2:
Even Demogorgon has an adjusted THAC0 of only -21, Abazigal's dragon form's THAC0 is higher (-15), and even Melissan is -17. And if you're not going to prepare for these battles, what will you prepare for?

The last one I checked (bed time) was GORDEMC1, a nameless "Balor" that I don't think I've seen anywhere in the game, because I'd remember getting ripped to pieces by this monstrosity. It's THAC0 is about 15 points lower than a normal Balor, leaving it with -25 adjusted THAC0. Given the prefix (GOR), it'd have to be somewhere in Watcher's Keep.

On another note, I haven't seen anything lower than a -12 AC. I'll look through the other half of the CRE files if I have time tomorrow.

EDIT3:
On a whim, I checked the scripts of the Balor and it's a cutscene creature in AR3017, the main area on level four (w/ Lum's machine). I suspect it's the one that Carston summons to chase away the other summoned creatures when you first get there. Therefore, as a creature you cannot fight, it is out of contention. :D

[ March 11, 2006, 07:21: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

starwalker - THAC0 = To Hit, Armour Class Zero.

If you have a THAC0 of 10, and you're fighting an enemy with AC 0, you need to roll a 10 to hit. If your THAC0 is 0, you will hit them every time except on critical misses. The toughest enemies have such a low THAC0 that it's impossible for your PCs to have a low enough AC to tank; the enemy will hit you nineteen times out of twenty.

You talk about stone skin being so great but most of the tank capable types at high level will rip through stone/iron skin in a round or so. That's the beauty of whirlwind.Hey, guess what. If you're fighting an enemy with more than five attacks per round, or critical strike, or both, then they're going to tear through your fighters like Kleenex. But no amount of impotent smacking away will remove PFMW, and Immunity: Abj. will stop other casters from stripping away your defenses.

If it was such a power at Tanking why would we solve most of them so easily?You say this as if enemies who don't use defensive spells are harder!

If we're talking about tanking, I'd just like to mention my Barbarian, who has a natural damage resistance of 45% (including David Gaider's Bhaalpowers). Add to that the flail with the extra 20% damage resistance and a Hardiness et voila, 105% damage resistance. That's right, he actually gets healed when he gets hit. Plus his 95% resistance to fire and cold he's by far the best (or easiest) tank I've got.

Sure, magic users can be played as a tank as well, but I'm not overly given to resting just to restore my spellbook, plus I'm not too fond of micro-management and sending in a couple of fighters is just far less of a hassle than managing a couple of mages.

The AC story is basically a moot point in ToB, because everybody and their grandmother can hit you just fine, even if you have -25 AC.

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You talk about stone skin being so great but most of the tank capable types at high level will rip through stone/iron skin in a round or so. That's the beauty of whirlwind.
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Hey, guess what. If you're fighting an enemy with more than five attacks per round, or critical strike, or both, then they're going to tear through your fighters like Kleenex. But no amount of impotent smacking away will remove PFMW, and Immunity: Abj. will stop other casters from stripping away your defenses.
ummm yeah. Right. Let's just go with that. Let's ignore oh say Ruby Ray and pretend your way is massively infallable and all warriors die in 10 hits or less and your invincible. Good enough for me.

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If it was such a power at Tanking why would we solve most of them so easily?
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You say this as if enemies who don't use defensive spells are harder! As if it makes them any easier either. Your picking a fight over it. I however. Quit.

No skin off my shaft. :rolleyes:

Well I can never trust AC in my heavily modded game, so pure fighters are just weaklings, they can not tank, and die easily on insane. Whilst those capable of casting mage or druid spells(iron skin) survive for rounds! YAY!

But ofcourse, that is just me. :p And my unique BG2 game...

And no one says a word about their tank mages when they've hit the dead magic zones in watchers keep? Give me a fighter with thick plate mail and a big sword any day of the week and twice on sunday!

^Come on, dead magic zones are so very rare. A high level mage will cripple a warrior even before he is able to act, via Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, and poor fighter is all yours to feast on! :evil:

A high level mage will cripple a warrior even before he is able to act, via Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, and poor fighter is all yours to feast on! Hmmm... I wonder why Big Jon didn't get a SINGLE spell off in spellhold against my Paladin. I even managed to save a couple of the inmates (sadly, Tiax was not one of them).

Isn't it a bit unfair to give them items that vary som much in power. i mean, the Gorgon Plate +4 is , if I remember correctly, much better then the armor you gave Minsc. As some other people said: to make the fight fair, you either have to unarm them and let them fight with no items at all, or you must give them the same items with Shadowkeeper. I suppose you could also give them the items that you think is best for them.

Actually. no. none of the items she gave are too remarkably better than any other to really constitute them as a great advantage.

@T2bruno

Come on, a level 40 sorcerer with right equipment will swipe the floors with JonBon's sorry a** too! :p What were you expecting from a little boss-fight anyway?

Level 40 ANYTHING should wipe the floors with EVERY boss. My paladin was level 12 (and a level 12 sorcerer would get his butt handed to him by a level 12 fighter).

I was messing around and looked at this issue where the different fighters would fight a equivalent level fighter. I used 550,000 XP for the NPC's and gave them equipment they should have early in the game, based on their individual strengths and proficiencies with no stat improving items (basically, they would need to get equipment from one or two of the easier quests -- nothing from Kangaxx, rogue stone, or a dragon). I also allowed them to cast one spell or use one special ability.

This was entirely statistically based and I simply wanted to know who could do the most damage before they were killed. I tried to roleplay as much as possible with choosing items. Most had the following armor -- Full Plate +1, Cloak of the Sewers, Helm of Balduran, Ring of Earth Control. Keldorn and Valygar kept their own armor. Those using shield used the Tower Shield +3, except Anomen who used his own shield. Only Valygar used two weapons (no shield). Keldorn and Minsc used two-handed swords (also no shield).

Anomen: Flail of Ages (without counting the slow ability), 181 damage before dying.
Jaheira: Belm, 148 damage before dying.
Keldorn: Hallowed Redeemer, 80 damage before dying.
Korgan: Frostreaver, 423 damage before dying.
Mazzy: Kundane, 271 damage before dying.
Minsc: Lilarcor, 186 damage before dying.
Valygar: Corthala Family Blade and Katana+1 dual, 165 damage before dying.

The opponent was a 10th level fighter with 18/50 strength and ***** in longswords. He/she had an AC of -3 and used a +3 longsword (and infinite hp's).

End of game get significantly more complex.