I'm a little curious about this since I originally started to play one in BG-2 (but found myself playing BG-1 again).

Anyway: Looking at the spellcasting slots at the x-cap both looked pretty similar (except for some high level spells after level-5.

mc fighter-mage:
lvl-6 spells: 4
lvl-7 spells: 3
lvl-8 spells: 3
lvl-9 spells: 2

pure mage:
lvl-6 spells: 5
lvl-7 spells: 5
lvl-8 spells: 5
lvl-9 spells: 5

So the mc fighter-mage is just 9 spells late (yep, some powerful .... ;) . So what I am curious about is if you think that ToB changed the advantages and power ballance in favour of mc chars.
Any opinions ?

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 08, 2001).]

Well, that's not necessarily an accurate comparision. My experience with ToB is that if you have a full sized party you don't get much beyond 5.5 to 6 mil exp in the normal course of play. So your multiclass wizard is only going to end up around 17 or 18th level. BG pretty much follows the standard PnP progression: spell casting multis are clearly better up to around lvl 10 or so, then rapidly fall behind. They are clearly weaker by the high teens much less the levels you get in ToB. [Of course, duals rock in CRPGs, while they are pretty rare in PnP since you don't gain a half a dozen levels a session.] :)

I think you should have at least one single class mage (Imoen, Nalia, Edwin, or a PC) if playing party style. My personal choice is to assign that role to an NPC and get a more versatile PC (bard or multi/dual type of some sort).

If you are soloing or going with a very small party, I'd think you would find the F/M the better choice. Since your group is so small, you actually will get to the cap. You don't gain all that much by being lvl 30 instead of lvl 22 or so, IMHO. I certainly think the ability to fight effectively is more valuable than the extra couple spells.

Enough rambling for now. :)

Aloha
Vormaerin

Of course I just told half the truth ;) Yes, the x-cap is the major problem - for the largest part of the game the pure or dc mage will be superior in number and level of spells.

Anyway, I think you can somewhat compensate this with the high level bonus spells and the mage rings (the same ones the pure mage receives as well :(
However, I actually try to get familiar with the mc fighter-mage but I fear I will use her as a back-up char for combat spellcasting and minor melee (due to the relatively weak AC).

My first frontline experiences with him were sobering as a result of bad AC and low hitpoints.
I'm curious about some gaming experience with this class since I rarely heared of people playing it in ToB.

Pure mage. You can always have another tank in your party and any kind of mage should concentrate on what they do: cast spells.

conserve your spells though if you're a pure mage - the last thing you want is to take on demogorgon wielding a stick after wasting all your spells =)

Well, "good" AC is pretty hard to come by in ToB. Seems most critters can pretty much nail you anyway. :) I think the best armor you can get for a F/M is the Aslyferund Elven Chain (which is AC0) which isn't really much worse than the full plates (generally AC-2). You can use any shield/helm/whatever that you want without bothering your spellcasting.

Fighter-mages (like their close kin, the bard) generally rely on their spell support for boosting their combat. Stoneskin, Protection from Magical Weapons, Improved Invisibility, Mirror Image, Blur, FireShield, Tenser's Transformation, etc all make a huge difference in combat. With the Amulet of Power, you can get off most combat spells pretty damn fast (like speed 0 or 1). If you are really pissed off, you can TimeStop and unleash all your Greater Whirlwinds on the baddies. :)

Aloha
Vormaerin

Alyfserund's chainmail is *the* chain of choice for a fighter-mage (excluding drow stuff) and *the* reason why I would never use an mc fighter-mage as a main char in ToB.

Since a main char gets immunity from normal weapons as a freebie from his tears of Bhaal the special abilities of this item would be wasted on a main char. Just cast protection from magical weapons and the melee enemies cannot harm you any longer ;)

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 09, 2001).]

I suppose that's a consideration if you play Multiplayer by yourself (I never have, so I didn't think about it). However, in a single player game there really isn't anyone else to use the armor except Haer'Dalis. I guess Imoen or Nalia could wear it instead of the Robes of the Archmagi. Besides, how many normal weapons do you actually face in ToB? The fight at the Oasis, maybe? I can't think of any others.

Aloha
Vormaerin

I ended up giving it to Aerie instead since I took a Kensai/Mage. And saved her life in Yaga Shura's battle. She was able to stand back and cast without being interupted from those pesky foot soldiers of Yaga's. Imoen wasn't so lucky until she got off an improved mantle.

I tried a DC F/M(currently level 13/20), and I switched armors between the Alslyterund +5, and the robe of vecna. (I was soloing)I exported a fighter out of BG1

Well, DC is a totally different story. In CRPGs, dual classing is much, much stronger than any single class or multiclass option. You get all (or nearly all) of the power of a single class character plus whatever benefits you get from your first class. There is really no downside to dual classing in a game like BG2 unless you are really keen to play a non human character.

Aloha
Vormaerin

Well, my point is that I think that the implementation of the high-level abilities in BG-2 ToB has changed exactly this. I daresay that now, in ToB, mc is stronger than dc.

A dc char is, due to total change of his class, basically an improved mage with better combat abilities. Oh yes, he can have grandmastery - sure.

BUT: BG-2 dos not have the extra attack for grandmastery - so you'd get along splendidly with **. If damage or THACO is too low - get yourself a strength girdle. Grandmastery is imo overestimated, nontheless ;) a question of status.
An mc char can use the special fighter abilities (like greater deathblow or magic resistance) a dc char can't get. Your fighter skills improve continuously so you'll end up as a lvl-24 fighter in the end.

So when you want to compare mc or dc fighter-mages it turns out to become a discussion about the number of spells, so we are back again, where this topic started ;)

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 11, 2001).]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure the high level ability issue actually matters that much. Really all that's happening with a MC character is that you are trading the high level mage abilities for the high level fighter ones. In 'normal' party play, a MC mage isn't going to be able to use the special spells until the very end, if at all.

Besides, Grandmastery isn't the big deal with dual vs mult fighters: its the hp. A MC fighter-mage will have noticably fewer hp than a dual Fighter-mage.

Aloha
Vormaerin

[This message has been edited by Vormaerin (edited October 11, 2001).]

I think better versions of the more powerful multi class combos would be the cleric(druid)/fighter class and the fighter/thief class. I have to agree that the mc fighter/mage isn't that great. The class can definately fight better than the DC version, but you are giving up under normal ToB conditions your high level mage spells until just before you fight Amellisan, if you even get them at all. Now that's alot to sacrifice for a better fighter. However, with the multi class fighter/divine caster combos, you get bother high level effects, and in the end truly come out IMO with a more powerful class than the DC version. I also think the multiclass thief is better than almost most DC combos except one: fighter D swashbuckler. That turned out to be an excellent DC, except for the lack of backstab.

Yes, I agree. Fighter/thieves and Fighter/Clerics are noticably stronger than the dual versions in ToB and at least as good in SoA (the lost 7th lvl cleric spells aren't *that* impressive, after all). I know that Sir Anomen would very much liked to have more fighter levels and fighter abilities by the end of ToB. He had all the Quest spells and most of the cleric levels weren't adding anything of note. On the other hand, Jaheira really wished she was a dual fighter-druid since she ended up stuck at 14th lvl for the entire expansion.

Aloha
Vormaerin

I don't know. I liked the multi fighter/druid I had running in my ToB game. She only ended up with two level 7 spell slots (thank god for that druid ring:D), but she had all the quest spells and had a few of the fighter special abilities. Now it would have been nicer to see the specific druid high level abilites to be sure, but then I really have the stupid druid level up scheme bioware used for that. But all in all, I didn't mind my fighter/druid. She was powerful enough for me, and I'd say more powerful than her dual class counterpart.

I love fighter mages (especially when they get time stop :lol: ) but they are not neccesary, you really HAVE to have a pure mage (or better a sorcerer) or maybe a dual like Nalia or Imoen. A fighter/ mage multi class won't get lv9 spells until they hit 6 000 000 exp which is pretty high. A fighter/ mage is just a fighter with spells and should not be used for your main mage, their spells are just to make them better fighters.

Cheers, Void.

[This message has been edited by void (edited October 12, 2001).]

Oh, Jaheira continued to be pretty effective throughout the game despite the complete halt to druid advancement. But there is such a HUGE difference between 14th and 15th level in all aspects it would have been nice to see. :Hmmm: But as a dual she wouldn't have had all those fighter feats, so that could have hurt bad.

I also wish there were some better one handed weapon choices for her in ToB.

Heh, my "line" in ToB consisted of Mazzy, Sir Anomen, Jaheira, and my bard. Oh, did I mention Mazzy? :D Jan and Imoen rounded out the team.

Aloha
Vormaerin

The thing to bear in mind here is that a mc fighter/mage can be used effectively as a fighter but simply doesn't have enough higher level spells to be used effectively as a mage. So you're still going to need a mage standing behind him.

The fighter/mage makes an excellent dual-weilding no.2 frontline warrior though (with a barbarian or paladin in front of/next to him). Spells (as someone mentioned above) like stoneskin, fireshied, blur, etc can make up for his weaker AC quite easily. He doesn't need range weapons 'cause he can cast spells if your main mage needs to cast area of effect attacks.

The dual-class option whould call for a lvl 11-13 mage (need a couple of stoneskins and fireshields at least) becoming a fighter. This takes a while to get the mage class active again if you look at the comparative XP tables but you can wear armour in the meanwhile.

Actually my current mc fighter mage is from BG-1 so she enjoys the advantage of having str-19 rather thn 18/43 :) so I have plenty of slots free for useful equipment like girdle of inertial barrier. I actually have Edwin as my main mage and I will trade him for Imoen when I come to spellhold. Currently she is lifesaver and melee core (with AC -43 :D ) for my archer main char.

Looking at Edwins spellcasting ability she looks really *poor*, but anyway, she can deal out some substantial damage. Since I want to keep her AC low I have the problem (she has the Alibakar elven chain) to need to have a slot for her ring/ amulet/ cloak of protection to keep my AC and saving throws low (quite simple: I cannot fight or cast spells when stunned).

The improved bladesinger chain will solve some of my problems for ToB but it is pretty away and anyway, AC remains to be my second concern :) however, protective spells help a lot to improve melee effectiveness :) But I think that while doing all the quests available (including the ust-natha massacre ;) ) I will collect plenty of xp - enough to gain suficient mage levels. This and the rings will help I think.
I still think that mc fighter-mages are better than dc ones, well, definitely they are not as good spellcasters as pure mages. However, I don't think that you will only need real high level spells later in ToB.

If this was a SoA thread I would say that I prefer dual-class characters, but it isn't, so I don't. :) I don't really know why, but somehow I don't like the lvl 10 spells that much (though I use Summon Planetar a lot, that spell is omnipotent :D), but I really like the fighting possibilities of a multi-class fighter/mage (the dual-class version is good at this too, but I think that this is better). I find the illusion and sequencer spells particularly effective. A Spell Trigger with Mislead, Improved Haste and Invisibility 10' radius really works wonders. Or you can load a Spell Sequencer with three fireballs and blast away all opposition (I played a solo fighter/mage, so I didn't have to worry about party members getting hit).
I think that the hardiness ability makes up for the lower hit points. Not that you get hit often, but it's still good to have... :)

Anyway, I'm rambling, and I shall finish here. :)

Well, I agree. Since I have Imoen for the few high level spells I'll need I can concentrate on sequencers and combat spells for my mc fighter mage. As for special abilities I look certainly forward to greather death blow and toughness (and, of course - the extra spells).

The absolute majority of enemies in SoA / ToB is of relatively low level (with relatively silly saving throws) so I found the relatively low level spells death, emotion, confusion, chaos & fear really marvellous since they allowed me to bring in my melee abilities effectively.

Why are you using Imoen and not Edwin??? Edwin is like the most powerful mage in the game!!!

I would play a thiefless party otherwise and I know that even Imoens restricted thieving abilities will come in handy on watcher's keep. Of course Edwin's spellcasting potential is awesome and he's certainly the better mage compared to Imoen (specialist mage + amulett).

I have a simple question which will likely put this whole debate to rest on which class is better. Under normal one time through the game circumstances, what will the fighter/mages thaco be by games end. Now my Kensai/mage's (dualed at level 9, frost giant girdle perhaps, celetial fury and the answerer dual wielded) thaco was *fairly* poor (-2 and -1), but he could still do well against weaker enemies and in larger battles, he could try to slug it out and cast spells front line to help my other front liners. I think the thaco of the multiclass will solve this argument. If it isn't that much better than the DC version, then I'd much rather have dragon's breath and comet than greater death blow or whirwind attack.

Well, in my 'one time through' game, Mazzy ended up with a net -14 THAC0. She had the gauntlets of extraordinary specialization, a +5 weapon, and the girdle of Fire Giant Strength. (Her unmodified THAC0 was -1). Anomen's net THAC0, with similar equipment, was -7. I don't have a multi to check, unfortunately. But I suspect the difference would only be 2 or 3 points.

Aloha
Vormaerin

[This message has been edited by Vormaerin (edited October 17, 2001).]

Hmm, I am still unsure about what's better, lvl-13 kensai-mage or mc fighter-mage. I like my chars to have a good THACO and about zero is great for SoA but I always felt it was kinda insufficient for ToB.

I read this topic too late - so I added a comparison here: http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003982.html

Hi,

I couple of questions and observations on this discussion, very interesting,

Firstly, I am only partway though my first SOA/TOB game and so have not seen all of the opponents throughout the game, however my question is what is the lowest armor class I am going to see in an opponent? From reading my PNP monster manual I think demogorgon has an AC of -8, is the lowest?

If the best AC I am going to be up against is say -10 then having a THACO of less than -10 does not help since I will always hit a -10 AC opponent on anything better than a roll of 1, 1 always misses.

If this statment is true then it is not whether I hit the opponent or not that matters but how many times I can hit him in a round that matters - I want to bring that sucker down as quickly as possible before he pounds on me.

From memory, don't have the PNP DM tables in front of me at the moment, if we are just talking about SOA then a kensai/mage dualed at lvl 9 would have a base THACO of 12 (start at 20, loses 1 per level), then add in the 3 extra for lvl 9 kensai, the possible 1 extra for grand master that would give a base THACO of 8 if using a grand mastered weapon, base THACO of 9 if using a specialised weapon.
A mc fighter mage would reach lvl 13 at the xp cap for SOA, this would give a base THACO of 8. He would get no bonus THACO due to class, his THACO of 8 would apply if using a specialised weapon.
I haven't added strength, + of weapon etc since these would apply to both characters equally - except that the fighter could use the various gaunlets and bracers to improve THACO and the kensai could not. Really there is not much difference, the kensai is probably the better fighter earlier in the game, but can't use magic for a while, whereas the fighter takes a little while to catch up in THACO terms but can use magic straightaway.
Also, the Kensai/mage will be the better mage by game end (higher level spells).

If we now consider TOB, and assume we can reach the xp cap, and further assume that we chose to dual our Kensai at lvl 13 now to take advantage of the extra attack and the higher xp cap, we get the following:

Kensai's base THACO is 8 plus the 4 class bonus for lvl 13 plus the 1 for grand master - gives 3 for grand master weapon and 4 for specialised weapon.
MC fighter/mage could reach lvl 24 as a fighter, base THACO by the end of the game would be THACO -3 with a specialised weapon.

This is significantly better than the kensai - pretty obvious really the new xp cap allows the mc fighter/mage to overtake the kensai/mage as the better fighter because the mc character will continue to advance whereas the kensai is stuck at lvl 13

Of course, this assumes that you can reach the xp cap in TOB, for every level you fail to reach add one to the mc characters THACO.
Level 17 fighter would give you the same THACO as the Kensai with a specialised weapon, 4.

Now add in the extra abilities the mc fighter has access to, whirlwind etc and the advantage the mc character has increases still further - both characters can hit the opponent, but the mc character can deal damage faster, probably the key thing with the tougher monsters.

Of course, the kensai/mage will still be the better mage, (more higher lvl spells).

Ultimately, it seems to me that both types of fighter/mage character have advantages, it all depends on your playing style and the party you are playing with and whether you are playing through to TOB or not.
If it is just SOA, then the kensai/mage is probably better, better early game fighter, better mage at the end.

The mc character makes a great backup mage and backup fighter all the way through the game but will never excel in either. Spell protections etc make a big difference but the pure fighter will always have the better AC. I guess that is what multi class means - jack-of-all-trades, whereas dual means you stop advancing in one class and start in another. As the levels progress, that first class is going to be more and more stale and less and less useful.

If you plan to play through TOB, then the mc character is the better fighter and the kensai would probably have to sit back and cast spells a bit more, The mc character would never be as good a mage as the dual. He might get lvl 9 spells but the dual would have more.

The party and your playing style are key things here. Both of these types of character are very powerful. How many high level mages do you need? and how many fighters?

In my game I am playing a mc fighter/mage. My party is keldorn, minsc, aerie, jaheira and imoen. Hence, I have three mages, four fighters, a druid and cleric and a pretty poor thief - just not all at once! Depening on the situation, I can send all four fighters to bash things or just my main tanks and more or less characters to cast magic when needed. Hence, I have a very flexible party, hopefully able to use several different tactics to solve problems. My mc character will be able to keep switching between both roles all the way through TOB, since each class is advancing. If I used a kensai/mage here, then eventually my PC would have to sit back and cast spells more as his fighting skills might not be fresh enough at the front.

I am in chapter 4. I use my PC as a backup mage and a buffed up (with his magic) frontline fighter. He is dual wielding the fury and belm and is very effective. He will never be as good a mage as imoen, (on a par with aerie), when Imoen eventually catches up - (spoiler - it was a bit of a shock to find imoen still on some crappy level when I picked her up in spellhold - however, it makes perfect sense, just annoying) and he can have problems with the hard hitting monsters, but thats well Minsc and Keldorn lend a hand.
I am planning to take him through to TOB. My playing style is to play a big Fighter and a small mage, whereas a kensai/mage would give me a small fighter and big mage.

Anyway, enough rambling on, as I said at the start this is my first time through SOA/TOB so take anything I have said with caution as I only have my limited experience to pull on. Also, the PNP tables stuff was from memory so its possible there is a mistake or two in there.

I guess it is discussions like these the make you realise what a rich game this is: there are just so many choices and so little time.....

Cheers,

WittyNewt.