I wonder about starting stats sometimes in that many people re-roll dozens, if not hundreds of times to get a character with 100+ total ability points. I really question the sanity behind this at times. My latest character has 89 total points, and this is after taking him through BG1 and using all the tomes. So his starting stats were a mere 81 total. I will re-roll if I get a really bad roll (like less than 70 total), but generally speaking I find that anything of 80+ is a very playable character. How many total points to you really need? How many would you like to have? (Well obviously everyone would LIKE 108, but given that is highly unrealistic, what do you typically shoot for before you are satisfied?

NOTE to get all 18's (a total of 108) you're odds are 6^18, which is what, about one in 100 trillion?

[ February 28, 2005, 20:06: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

I roll to get good stats in the category that my character needs. I think 89 is the highest I've rolled. Usually around 84. I do try for over 80 which isn't hard. Time spent rolling is less than 20mins.

I usually aim at 84+. Long ago I could force myself to go over 90("Sarevok has this much! I can't be worse!"), but I don't really care nowodays. My munchkinism decreased a bit.

100+? Never ever had this much.

I agree with Aldeth. Nakia - even 20 minutes seems extreme to me. I would only ever spend a maximum of 30 seconds rolling stats.

4 reasons not to bother rolling for any longer:
1) I'd rather get on with playing
2) From an RP point of view, it makes more sense if some of the stats are a bit low
3) Under the 2e rules in BGII, the impact of stats is less than in 3e (e.g. charisma does not affect the difficult class of a Bard's spells)
4) There are so many items to be found in the game that raise stats anyway.

I agree with Harbourboy, especially on 4) if you played the game before and know what items you can get.
Though I must admit I usually roll for longer than 10 minutes before I remember what a waste of time it is.

I can understand in extreme circumstances that you'd want to reroll. For example, say you rolled a 60 total. That's not going to be very fun at all if your average stat is actually the normal average of 10. You're a Bhaalspawn damnit! You should be at least somewhat above average. A person with 60 total is just your average Joe Peasant.

over 100? I dont think I've ever got over 90. I will admit I re-roll a lot, but I get over 85 and I accept.

My very favourite was elven sorceress with 97 points. After I updated her (I played SOA+TOB, naturally), her stats were
str 10 dex 19 con 16 int 19 wis 20 cha 19

That time it took me 20 minutes. But I played lots of times, and sometimes rolled for two hours, though I dodn't get anything decent that time.

I normally play with 90 roll, it takes me 2-3 minutes to get it.

@Takara - I could be wrong here, but I'm almost positive I've seen a "Best Rolls Ever" thread that had a boat-load of people getting scores of 90+, and at least a few people who claimed to reach 100.

Note that 100 is just sick. Effectively, that means you have one stat at 10 and all the rest at 18, or perhaps two stats at 14 and all the rest at 18.

Can someone remind me which ability scores have an impact if they are over 18? For example, what happens if you have 19 Intelligence?

19 INT lets you memorise all mage spells, and adds quite a bit to lore. 19 STR is awesome (compared to 18 - why half-orcs rule the munchkin warrior world!), and 19 wis will add spells etc. Basically, it's all just a case of "the same, only moreso". DEX you won't see much difference, though, unless you're a rogue type. +5% to thieving skills & +1THAC0 with missile weapons doesn't mean as much for most characters. At 20 CON, things get interesting... Your character starts regenerating! In BG1, you could get a dwarf called Kagain who had this stat, and coupled with a set of Bracers of Dexterity he made the best tank in the game. Ah, those Halcyon days...

And my Ranger>Cleric from BG1 had 21 WIS after tomes; awesome casting bonuses! :grin:

Incidentally, he was probably one of my highest ever rolls; 95 pts, IIRC.

I will re-roll if I get a really bad roll (like less than 70 total)I once tried rolling for low stat totals, and I think there's a cap at the low end at 75; I thought I'd try to solo with the weakest possible character. After considering playing a rollable character with inappropriate (fighter: S9 D3 C9 I18 W18 Ch18) or flawed (bard: S4 D14 C14 I14 W14 Ch15) stats, I just SKed a human cleric S3 D3 C3 I3 W9 Ch3 (stat total 24; imagine what this guy would be like in RL). While this made for an interesting and novel trip through Chez Irenicus (carrying capacity 5lbs, 15 with DUHM; I gave up on weapons and armor), once I had Mauler's Arm (then a Girdle of Str), Gauntlets of Dex, the Con Girdle, and the Ring of Human Influence, it became a standard solo cleric run (albeit one where a Potion of Genius was needed to read a scroll). Actually, I was kinda sad not to be given stupid dialog options all the time.

So yeah, stats don't make that big of a difference. I suppose if you were going solo and aiming to maximize your stat total including items, you might start by maxing out Int and Wis (which require potions rather than gear), and then deciding on the basis of what gear you want to use which stats to maximize (i.e., the Cha ring is great and all, but would you rather use the ring slot for something else?). When playing with a party, you might make decisions based on other party members (i.e., maximize Dex because Anomen/Keldorn will need the Dex Gauntlets).

Of course, it would be a whole different thing to play with mediocre stats and swear off the use of items that assign a new ability score (rather than adding a point or two)...

@HB:

To wit on 19s:

Strength at 18 is +1 to hit +2 to damage, while 19 is +3 to hit, +7 to damamge. Yes, exceptional strength makes up for the numbers in between.

Dexterity does nothing if you aren't a thief other than give you +1 to missile weapons, it's still a -4 AC adjustment.

Constitution gives you +5 to hit points for warrior classes, nothing for the other classes, and yes, you do slowly regenerate once you hit 20.

Wisdom gives bonus spells. I think you get an additional level 4 spell and an additional level 1 spell (on top of everything you got with the 18 which I think is two extra 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells). Also high wisdom increases your lore ability, and I believe the difference between 18 and 19 is significant (somewhere in the range of 5-10).

Intelligence increases the chance of being able to successfully scribe a scroll to your spell book (I think it increases from 85% to 95%), and it allows you to have ALL the spells from a certain level in your spell book. Now I will admit that an 18 in intelligence also allows something like 15 or 16 spells per level which is all someone will realistically need, but still, it's cool to have. It also affects lore, but to a lesser degree than wisdom. I think the increase is something like 3 points.

Charisma - gives a more favorable reaction from NPCs (although I forget the modifier) and also store items get a little cheaper.

NOTE to get all 18's (a total of 108) you're odds are 6^18, which is what, about one in 100 trillion?
101.56 trillion. The odds are actually 15C6, however, which is 1 in 5005. That's still an impressive number.

I've found that there's enough stat-boosting items in the game to compensate for pretty much anything. If you're a mage then int matters (as no item raises this in BG2) but for a fighter nothing truly matters.

I used to roll a lot, but got bored. Now, when I feel like powergaming, I limit myself to exactly 10 rolls per character and use the save rolls function to get the highest.

Usually, I just take what the machine gives me. It never is unplayable with the ability to +/- stats.

In BG2 high starting stats are seriously overrated.
The main reason for this is the large number of items which give you 18 (or more).

I just take the 1st roll > 80.

To me, the interesting thing is how hard it is to get good stats as certain classes. Paladins for instance. It takes an insanely good roll to get a Paladin good stats in Str, Con & Dex, since a Pally has to commit 30 points to Wis & Char, both of which are almost meaningless.

Depends on the class what I want to play, but whatever I play, I usually use Shadow Keeper to up the stats as if I've played BG1 with all the tomes. But whatever you play you can always get items which up your stats for long enough to get any jog done. So yes they are overrated, but you're almost forced to have them as high as possible. Can't have a Bhaalspawn with lower then average stas now, can we? ;)

In the old D&D games, they let you modify your stats, so I'm used to giving myself straight 18's. So when I first started BG, I took 15-20 minutes trying to get the best stats possible. (I didn't know about Shadowkeeper back then)

But then I met you guys on these boards with your opinions on godliness. :)

So now I take 5-10 minutes rolling and keep the best score around 90. In my most recent run through, the first roll the appeared was a 91 pointer with 18(90) strength! That's my best first-roll ever.

But yes, I agree that high stats aren't really needed. In the end you'll be wearing girdles of giant strength and other items anyways and you won't see what you rolled again. (Except for wizard slayer - this guy can't wear ANY accessories so man was I glad to get the 18(90) strength).

It only really affects the game until you get those items I guess. And that's not very long either - charisma ring in Chapter 1, Hill Giant strength available for purchase in chapter 2, etc.

I dont have the patience to roll for more than 5 minutes. Still I generally manage 80+ stats. Thats pretty enough regardless of the class I am playing.

I know its possible to get items which increase your stats but its not an easy proposition.

Str: The Girdle of Hill Giant Strength is worth 14000GP at average rep and 18 Char.
Dex: You have to face various shades, skeletons and zombies before you can get these bracers. Then you have to face or slink around a den of Gauths and Beholders to get out.
Con: It works for 8 hours per resting period after which you would be back to lower HP.
Char: The ring is the easiest stat altering item to get. But you have to listen to Aerie's whiny voice at least thrice.

None of this matters if you stand at the back casting spells nad dont get targeted that often. But for leading-from-the-front melee charecters stats will remain important.

Strength is because there are so many items to raise it past 18. And there is the ring for charisma. High intelligence is a must though for mages. Almost nothing except the machine can raise it.

The problem is the way the items raise strength to a specific number. If the items just worked by raising an ability score by +1, then the score that you started off with would be more relevant.

Well yeah, but then you 'waste item space'. I.e. instead of Ogre Strenght there's Exceptional Mastery, and +1/2 attack is VERY nice.

It is also a nice to have high stats so you don't have to remember to re-equip the Ring of Human Influence before shopping, cast Strength and use belt for Con increase after resting, drink a potion of Genius before memorising spells and drink a potion of Insight before casting Wish ;)

I usually don't roll more than 10 times, however if I ever multi-classed I might spend some time re-rolling.

Actually, I find that multi-classing generally gives you higher total rolls for a few reasons. First, since you have to be playing a demi-human, most races of pre-set minimums higher than 3 that automatically get adjusted upwards. For example, I don't think an elf can be generated with intelligence less than 8. Secondly, because you have at least two, and possibly three classes, you get these minimums adjusted upwards as well.

There's a lot more info in one these old threads, as well as people getting over 100, and a whole lot of people upwards of 90.

See it here (http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/1088.html)

Just say you are an Elven Mage/Thief. You would want to max Wis and Intel to get the most of the spells available (thinking of wish spells here). As you cannot wear armour, you would probably want to max Dex (helps with the thieving skills as well).

Of course you can get away with Str and Con due to various belts and gloves, but you have to wait a while to get them.

In the old D&D games, they let you modify your statsDo you mean old CRPGs or PnP RPGs? If you mean PnP, I don't remember doing that at all when I first started playing OD&D. I think we just rolled 3d6 six times with no modifications, and maybe had the option to trash the character if it was too lame. Back then you felt like you were strong if you had a Str of 13. Maybe later with AD&D we started rolling 4d6, dropping the lowest die; even then it was impressive to have rolled, say, a paladin or ranger due to the class requirements; I was super-happy to have rolled a pally, even with a Str of 12 IIRC. In BG2, the lowest stat total you can roll, 75, can still give you the best fighter stats in the game: S18 D18 C18 I7W7Ch7, as the fighter's personality really doesn't matter much.

Ahh, those glorious days when "16" was a super high attribute, and not considered lame...

Here's an idea: how about playing with the first roll you get, without adjusting the stats?

I can spend 30 mins easy to rolling and I think the character creation is one of the fun aspects of any RPG. After all, it determines how you will play the next 50+ hours (at least). ;)

Anyway, I usually play as a sorcerer, so the main stat (int) and dex have to be at least 16. Char something like 15 simply because of roleplaying factors, even though it has no effect to the game and you get a ring that sets it to 18 pretty early. A matter of personal taste.

I did mean old CRPGs from AD&D, like the Dragonlance series or the original Pool of Radiance saga.

Ugh, now I'm thinking about stat altering items and maximum stats. Considering the entire BG series:

Permanent Stat alterations: Tomes +8 Stat Total; Hell Trials Max+4 ST; Lum’s Machine +6 ST; Deck of Many Things +1 ST (to prime requisite only; can the star card be drawn more than once?); also, one stat point is lost with the Spellhold dream

Wearable Stat determining items: Various Strength determining weapons, with Crom Feyr being the maximum (S25); Girdles of Giant Strength with Fire Giant Girdle the maximum (S22), Gauntlets of Dex (D18), Girdle of Con (C18 1/day), Ring of Human Influence (Ch18)

Wearable Stat adjusting items: Sensate Amulet (Ch+2, clerics only); Boots of the West (Ch+1); Nymph or Algernon Cloak (Ch+2); Helm of Glory (Ch+1); Golden Ioun Stone (I+1); Silver Ioun Stone (W+1); Obsidian Ioun Stone (C+1), Plate of Balduran (Ch+1); Shuruppak’s Plate (D+1); Kiel’s Buckler (D+1); Hrothgar’s Axe (W+1, Ch+1); Blade of Roses (Ch+2); Axe of Unyielding +5 (C+1). Is that everything?

So, with a maximum natural roll (all 18s) of 108, the use of a permanent adjustments pushes that to a natural stat total of 126, with a max stat total using equipment (without spells or potions) of 139. For example, consider a human cleric:

S18 D18 C18 I18 W18 Ch18 (108) Natural roll
S19 D19 C19 I19 W21 Ch19 (116) All BG/TotSC tomes
S18 D19 C19 I19 W21 Ch19 (115) Loss of Str in Spellhold dream
S18 D19 C21 I19 W22 Ch20 (119) Hell trials: good wrath tear (W+1, Ch+1); evil fear tear (C+2); evil selfish tear (D+0)
S19 D20 C22 I20 W23 Ch21 (125) Machine of Lum the Mad
S19 D20 C22 I20 W24 Ch21 (126) Deck of Many Things
S25 D22 C22 I20 W25 Ch25 (139) with Crom Feyr, Sensate Amulet, Nymph Cloak, Shuruppak Plate, Keils Buckler, and Silver Ioun Stone

Note that the natural strength for the maximum equipt stat total could actually be as low as 3, so that with a natural roll stat total of 93, you could potentially make this character without cheating the stat roll (though going all the way through BG with a 3 Str character before finding strength equipment could be tough).

Finally, natural maximums:

Strength: 23 (fighter only; +2 evil path with wrath tear, and +1 Deck of Many things; with Tutu, a half-orc could reach 24)
Dexterity: 22 (elf or halfling thief only)
Constitution: 23 (dwarf, or half-orc with Tutu)
Intelligence: 22 (gnome illusionist only)
Wisdom: 24 (cleric or druid only)
Charisma: 21

[ March 02, 2005, 01:08: Message edited by: Bion ]

@ Bion

Wouldn't Druid get 24 wisdom too along with Cleric or isn't wisdom the bonus they get from the deck of many things?

My evil thief can go higher than 22 I thought.

Elf = 19
+1 BG1 = 20
+1 Evil path hell (wrath/kill Sarevok with pure hatred) = 21
+1 Deck of many things = 22
+1 Machine = 23

The evil path gives +1 to anyones prime stat in Hell and +2 strength. So if you are a evil fighter you end up with +3 strength right?

Evil seems to come out ahead in BG games... :evil:

@Aces- Oops, forgot about druids; I'll add it to my post.

I didn't think you got +1 in the prime requisite stat along with the strength bonus for the evil wrath tear, at least not in my game. Can anyone confirm this?

You do, however, save a Dexterity point by choosing the evil path for the selfish tear. I neglected to include that above.

Evil seems to come out ahead in BG games...Of course powergaming is inherently evil. Like that tome in IWD2 said: Face it, you're neutral evil.

I didn't think you got +1 in the prime requisite stat along with the strength bonus for the evil wrath tear, at least not in my game. Can anyone confirm this?
You don't. You get +2 Str and that's all.

My Kensai got +1 con right after he chose to rain his wraith upon Sarevok (right after the dialoge ends)

Edit : same for my Inquisitor IIRC

You get +1 str for straight fighter-types and Monks
(so you get +3 str !), +1 int for mage-types, +1 dex
for thieves and +1 wis for cleric-types (I wonder why :) , it's not as it is a WISE choice)

I was just quoting the book as I haven't played an evil BG2 game yet.

I have my evil fighter/thief 25% done on a BG 1 run though.

:coffee:

Bion said
Here's an idea: how about playing with the first roll you get, without adjusting the stats? I'd go for that if you could roll your stats before selecting your race and class.

Where's the quote button on these forums?

Aldeth:
"@Takara - I could be wrong here, but I'm almost positive I've seen a "Best Rolls Ever" thread that had a boat-load of people getting scores of 90+, and at least a few people who claimed to reach 100.

Note that 100 is just sick. Effectively, that means you have one stat at 10 and all the rest at 18, or perhaps two stats at 14 and all the rest at 18."

In Icewind Dale I once rolled a Paladin with 18 STR, DEX, CON, CHA, 13 WIS 10 INT. You've all seen people boast of higher stats, but my paladin even had his 18/00 strength! I almost fainted when I saw all those 17s, and when I put one point into strength, it turned out to be /00. That was neat. I only wish I created that character in BG instead :p Hmm.. Might use Gatekeeper (even though it is extreme cheating, and I deserve to rot and burn in a thousand hells for it)

By the way, if you cheated with you character (shadowkeeper, or extra tomes) does it show in the character file somehow ? Not the character record in the game, just in the file as such ?

For some strange reason I thought what Aldeth's title meant was "Is starting polls(statistics) overrated?".
No offense, but realization came as a shock after I started reading the first post.

@kulyok
No. You can make a 25-25-25-25-25-25 Elven Kensai/Mage/Thief with 100% resistance to everything and there is no flag created which says "CHEATER!" However no one is gonna be fooled. :p

@Scythesong Immortal :lol: ROTFLMAO :shake: