hello folks,

after rereading a couple of threads in this forum i found that most people tend to prefer the multiclass-solution when it comes to fighter/mages whereas i have always chosen to dual class a fighter to mage once he reaches lvl 9. i was a little surprised that so many seem to consider the dual-class characters inferior.
so basically i'd like to defend the f/m dual-classers here and outline my reasons why i think they're better :

[note : everything i'll write here about the f/m - chars bases upon the condition that the game is played with a four to six person party and *not* a solo-character]
[note2 : i usually dual-class at lvl 9)

why dual-classes fighter/mages rule :

* more hit points
* much much better spell repertoire (at least until the very last stage of the game)- basically i think that a mc f/m's spell casting abilities are more or less useless until he reaches 4,5-5m xp - but at this time the dc f/m can already cast time stop, wotb, shape shift etc.
* once the dc f/m casts tenser's transformation he is also the better fighter (usually around 200hp, better thac0)

of course the dc-solution also has some weak points :

* dc f/m can't cast while under tenser. i see this would be a lethal weakness in a pvp-match but *not* with a handfull of companions who can dispel an invisibility or a mislead
* dc f/m won't get fighter-hlas. but : i don't think he needs it. when it comes to straight slaying nothing can beat a stoneskinned / mirror-imaged /imp. hasted / tens. transformed / two-weapon-styled dc f/m (that's like sarevok on acid)

ok guys, these are my thoughts. now i hope, you'll give a couple of yours. thanks.

[ December 02, 2004, 13:15: Message edited by: nightwood ]

Everything you said is true, but I am of the majority in thinking that the multi-class option is superior. Don't get me wrong, a DC f/m is a powerful character capable of tackling just about any situation, but to me a DC f/m is primarily a mage with some fighting ability, while a MC f/m is both a fighter and a mage.

1. Fighter HLAs are invaluable. You can argue that a dc f/m doesn't NEED them, but you can't argue that they are damn useful to have around.

2. MC f/m don't need spells like Tenser's Tranformation. As you pointed out, your dc f'm is a slightly better fighter when he casts this, but then you lose all your spell casting abilities. Without TT, the mc is still almost as good of a fighter while retaining all of his spell casting abilities.

3. A dc f/m has to choose between being a great fighter with no mage abilities (using TT) or a great mage but a relatively poor fighter under other conditions. A mc f/m is pretty good in both respects all the time. So really, the decision comes down to how you play. Do you want basically a mage who has a better THAC0 and can mix it up when necessary? Or do you want a more versatile character that can provide mage support to the party while still fighting along side the other tanks all the time? And that's why I like the mc option better. You get enhanced verstility.

As an aside and slightly :yot: the absolute bomb of all mc characters has to be the f/t.

@Aldeth the Foppish Idiot - One slight disadvantage is that you cannot have a kit with MC. My current obsession with Wizard Slayers is only workable as a dual class either to MU or Thief.

Not sure whether WS/MU is as good as WS/T but it has certain advantages over a multiclass.

@aldeth

"A dc f/m has to choose between being a great fighter with no mage abilities (using TT) or a great mage but a relatively poor fighter under other conditions. A mc f/m is pretty good in both respects all the time."

actually i think that's not true. particularly the second statement. since the mc f/m has to share his xp equally between the two classes he is neither a good fighter nor a good mage until tob. with a four to six members party you'll get around 3,2 - 4,5m xp each in soa. divided by two that's 1,6 - 2,25m in each class. as a mage the mc is not very likely to be able to cast 8th-lvl-spells in soa. as a fighter he'll have a slightly better thac0 than the dc f/m , but the dc has more hit points which makes up for it.
with his spellcasting superiority the dc f/m is easily able to have a contingeny or chain contingency ready (which the mc can't until tob, because of his poor spellcasting skills) which makes him also a better fighter.
i agree that this changes once tob is reached, but only then.

nightwood - I think you will find that the common wisdom about this issue is that, for SOA, dual is better than multi. However, for TOB, dual doesn't hold a candle. As you are posting in the TOB forum, I'm assuming that you have it. 'nuff said.

Also, if you are playing with a party, you sure as heck don't need your PC to be throwing level 8 spells in SOA, as Edwin, Nalia or Imoen can handle that. Thus, the mc "double support" character is an absolutely workable player. I like having an extra mage type for extra breaches, lower resistance, etc. Also, there are plenty of mage spells that seriously augment my f/m's abilities without having to worry about TT. A multi-class F/M with stoneskin, mirror image, mislead, and whatever bells and whistles you want to add is a formidable tank indeed, and either soloes with ease or takes a crucial role as the leader of the party.

To me, the only time I seriously worry about what my PC can do alone is when I am playing him alone -- i.e., solo. At that point, I'm getting so much experience that he's going to have whatever he wants in the mage department whether he's dualled or multi- Therefore, I take multi because I haven't played SOA without TOB since TOB came out.

I agree nightwood. It takes to the end of TOB for MCs to steam ahead. This is much earlier if solo'd - but you say you are NOT doing that.

Mc's are still improving at 5M exp where as dc's tend to have maxed out.

MC characters EVENTUALLY get to be powergaming dreams... but as you rightly say only with uber amounts of exps to cover up the fact that they spend most of the game lagging seriously behind their dual class counterparts of the same exp.

Regardless of the combo, dual class characters at VERY high levels are not gaining anything... yet another greater whirlwind, or trap, or in the case of mages and clerics, just 1 or 2 more HPs!

For dual character I think it is more a question of what the first class is giving you compared to a single class character. For a F/M that means loads of HPs, weapon proficiencies, ability to use a helmet, better number of attacks and Thac0. This needs to be weighed against the ability to create a specialist mage (1 extra spell per round) + about 1 extra level of experience.

The beauty of BG2 is that it is all about style of play.

Another thing to take into consideration is the possibility for using kits with a dual class character. (EDIT: Whoops, someone did mention it) Obviously kensai is the popular choice as it fits well with the whole no armour thing and buffs the f/m's fight abilities admirably, but berserker is no slouch either with the berserker rage's immunities coming in very handy. I still prefer m/c for the reasons detailed in others' posts, but I may give the dual class character a go some day.

There's also the issue of that painful period when you're waiting to get your fighter levels back. Not much you can do besides tossing a Magic Missle into the fray and then standing around paring your nails with your dagger. I find this makes dual classes very annoying.

@dmc

as i said, i do no doubt that at the end of the game a mc is more powerful than a dc f/m. BUT : the way i see it for mc f/m the 'magic' xp barrier is 6million because only then will you be granted access to 9th lvl spells. now 6m xp - that's around mid tob when 80%-90% of the gamne is over. so i wonder how people can say mc chars are more powerful because they are when the game is nearly finished - not taking into account the time before.

and of course, in the 'normal' soa it's rather useless arguing about how much power one needs - but come the day you install tactics things start to vary greatly. even more so when you are going with a four people party - be it npcs or be it a multiplayer game.

My opinion of a dual classed character is that it's just a vanilla character of the second class with some hit point and fighting bonus (and maybe some extra perk or two if the fighter is a kit rather than a plain vanilla one). If my PC is going to be my chief magic user, he's not a mage at all, he's a sorceror. If he's not the main magic user, then it's Imoen or Edwin, depending on alignment, which solves your problem about hitting 9th level spells as neither of those two are multi-classed.

Thus, my assumption here is that we're talking about a backup mage. That guy doesn't need to hit 8th or 9th level spells until TOB anyway.

By the way, with Tactics and the other mods in there, there's a lot more experience to go around. Just those enhanced random city encounters add some serious experience, not to mention the additional dragons, tougher (and therefore worth more experience) golems, the new pests to deal with before Kangaxx, etc.

I think you can easily get a party of six well into HLA land in the SOA portion of the game without even hitting Watcher's keep.