I'm playing a wizard slayer dual to thief at level 14. He's got 30 thief levels and he just walks through spell casters...

With his hide in shadows, non detection, 100% detect illusion, 10 attacks per round (5 if suprised and he can't get imp haste off), assassination, 10% spell failure per hit, time traps etc. 100% magic resistance (though not at the same time as the 5 attacks per round!)

He truly does give even a prepared sorcerer a run for his money! In fact I suggest that he would beat most sorcerors of same exp level...

Any suggestions as to how the sorceror could cope?

I think this may work even with a normal mage:

1) Sorcerer uses this Chain Contingency that activates when seeing the enemy: [shadow door, Mordenkainen Sword x2].

2) Wizard Slayer/Thief tries to detect illusions to find the sorcerer while fending off the swords.

3) Wizard Slayer/Thief is defeated a couple of seconds later, when the sorcerer uses Time Stop and Imprisonment (ignores MR) on him.

2... Runs away... comes back after spell duration.
Once the chain contingency has fired it is obviously a get out of here moment. But other than stone skin having protections up all the time is not that feasible!

3... Youve not got a target... a hidden, non -detectable thief is not that easy to see.

2. ADHWx2 and after the timestop, any char would be dead.....

Mmm.... how about this?

2.a... Mordy's swords would go after the WS/T the moment he starts running, so he can only hide using invisibility potions or rings then, unless he can outrun the swords. If the WS/T uses magic potions or rings, the Sorc then could cast Dispel Magic, which should cancel the invisibility as spell, regardless of Non-Detection (although I have to try this first), forcing the WS/T to engage the Mordy's Swords or use more potions/rings.

2.b...If the WS/T outruns the swords and hide in shadows, the sorc can always cast protection from Evil and invoke a trusty pit fiend in the general direction where the WS/T went. Fiends can see invisible/hidden creatures IIRC.


3.. The sorc will have a target the moment the WS/T decides to attack him or the pit fiend. The attack will be wasted against stoneskin.

Instead of TS and Imprisonment, the sorc can use Maze, which is nearly instantaneous and also by-passes MR. Unless your WS/T is a genius, he should spend quite a while in the maze. The sorc meanwhile summons more fodder and casts Mislead to be out of the way before the WS/T re-appears. Then Time Stop from a safe distance the moment he shows up.

If that fails, I'd say... Expeditious retreat! :D

EDIT: @Balle

Good point, but you are forgetting the Wizard Slayer's magic resistance. He may be unafected, or just get half damage with a saving throw.
A dual-classed character has quite an amount of hit points.

Assuming the standard equip i'm carrying in the game Mordy's swords are no problem... Run away with boots of speed, corner, hide in shadows. They cannot see hidden with non-detect. You cannot dispel hide in shadows nor non-detection cloak.

The pit fiend is interesting wild card to throw in... god knows whether it would help or hinder you and your other summons.

As for point 3... it is not the point to damage you... if i get one round hitting you i won't do any damage due to your protection but you'll never cast another spell, WS cumulative 10% spell failure goes straight through everything..... v powerful.

Also if we are doing cheese then lure your summons onto time traps, go back and detect illusions and hack you to pieces.

I honestly think this could go either way depending on a bit of luck and second guessing your opponent. There was a beserker vs sorcerer thread a while back which more or less concluded the sorcerer would win in nearly all cases.

WS/Thieves with the ability to be invisible, detect invisible, get up to 100% MR, and 10% Spell failure per hit does add another dimension to the debate.

Is casting from scrolls affected by spell failure?

EDIT:
I consider using the Time Stop traps fair play. They are there to be used.

Taking into account they have the same exp. the sorcerer casts dispel likely cancelling most protections immediatly. Then runs around until spells can be cast again. If the WS runs away to hide again, follow to stop him, if he uses scrolls or items to hide, use another dispel.

Spell Trigger, two lower resistance and Greater Malison (prepped before battle) fired once detected.

1) Then there is power word blind, chain contingincy ADHW (x3 or x2? I never use this because I don't like it) fired when hit. followed by a power word kill or imprsionment.

2) Or cast timestop, Imp Alac, then fire as many or skull traps or sunfires as possible.

If all goes well, the sorcerer would have an easy time. This doesn't take into account pre set traps and is based on the WS not hitting the caster. What if the WS was using a bow with +3 arrows? Would probably use an illusion spell to ditract the thief from casting long enough to fire the time stop.

@Colthrum, re: Is casting from scrolls affected by spell failure? Great point... I've no idea cos no script that I've come across does it. I will give it a go when I get time.

I've got to say I'm a huge sorcerer fan... so in a way i'm hoping that they can get out of this... But I think WS/Thieves have all the attributes to give sorcerors a really hard time... The time stop traps are great cos they auto fire... and summons may well just play into the thief's hands.

@Malovae... I had not bothered putting any spell resistances up for the WS/Thief. It is all about the initial round. Remember you've got to stop the WS from hitting you and stoneskins are not going to work. 10 hits = 100% spell failure = dead sorcerer.

The simulcrum helm does give you a bit of an extra thing to worry about... as that image has cause spell failure built in too! If it comes down to equipment then the WS/T can use everything in the game. So scrolls on both sides!!!! Imprisonment and maze scrolls and staff of magi's spell trap!

But of course, I had forgotten the Use Any Item HLA... You've got a neat character there, It'd would be quite a fight. :thumb:

I was thinking of making one of these myself - now I know I will. :)

BTW, why did you choose to dual at level 14 rather than the more-typical level 13?

14 gets one extra 1/2 attack per round, IIRC.
There is no question about whether to dual wield... you simply have to ... and then stick something like blem in your off hand... that way you can get 5 att per round with the gloves of extraordinary weapon specialisation.

The MR at 100% only comes with Carosmyr... So it is defend with Carosmyr (and staff of magi spell shield + invis)... attack with CF and Belm or some similar combo... + Imp haste is your friend! Against non spell casters, time traps + 10 attacks per round + assassination = too much damage to calculate!!!

Actually, the extra 1/2 attack comes at level 13. But no big loss on your part - your thaco improved a bit by waiting until level 14, as did your saving throws and MR.

Easily the worst bit was the levelling up to get the WS activated again... Char was very weak and needed every trick I know to level up quickly. Then it is quite pleasurable up to UAI... when it is really, really big fun. Forget anything but solo... it is just a waste of exp!

If the wizardslayer/thief has standard ecquipment so has the sorcerer thus the sorcerer will have staff of the magi. You cannot strike what you cannot see, detect illusion is useless as the sorcerer can just re-ecquip the staff everytime the invisibility is dispelled. With that simple cheesy tactic only so is the sorcerer untouchable. May not be able to do anything offensive but that is a later problem.

But you have to think that the WST can do the same. Just re-equip the staff every time invisiblity is purged. Not only can the WST use any item or scroll that the Sorc can, but he can also use all of the other items from any other character.

I think that the WST would be able to defeat the Sorc, though it would be an extremely long battle.

@Scythe... just curious, is your WS/T solo? If not, I'm just wondering about the rest of your party makeup with that combo because it sounds interesting to play.

quote Splunge:
I was thinking of making one of these myself - now I know I will.Heh, I already have. And I love 'em! ;)

I think the WS/T would win, if he can take advantage of traps. But to do that, he'd have to lure the sorc away from his starting place to where the traps are, which an intelligent sorc wouldn't do. (Ha, too bad sorcs don't have to be inteliigent to get more spells!)

Both of them will be invisible at will, thanks to SotM. So the only things to tip the balance will be certain summons, timestops with true sight and area effect spells. So i think the sorc will win.

@ chiz:
the sorc gets summons: the WS//T can attack and kill them, since he is, after all, a powerful fighter. (plus the use of assassination would demolish those summons.)
The sorc gets timestop: so does the WS//T, using the time trap.
The sorc gets true sight: the WS//T gets detect illusions.
The sorc has area effect spells: the WS//T can cast from scrolls to get any spell he wants. He can also wear the Robe of the Vecna if he plans on using lots of scrolls.

It all boils down to the following question: can the WS//T get 10 hits in before the sorc kills him?
And that question boils down to maintaining invisibiity on the part of the sorcerer.

I think we're also forgetting something - equipping an item (eg: Staff of the Magi) will interrupt a spell if it's being cast, rendering it useless. Luck and timing will play into this battle as well, even if you have the maximum spell casting time reduction effects going, all it will take is one hit to inflict a casting penalty (and for things like Imprisonment, that would be more like two or three hits, minimum). Care to take a chance, anybody?

What can stop/prevent the casting failure penalty? Does Mirror Image work? Also, can you inflict spell failure chance with an area-effect or magical attack (for example, a Magic Missile scroll)? Finally (and most important, in my opinion), does SI: Abjuration prevent Protection From Magic scrolls from being cast on you? These, I feel, are the central considerations for this battle. Whoever gets their trick off first will win this battle, but won't be able to do it so easily as they might think they could.

If we include items, I think the WS/T has a very good shot at killing the Sorceror. I don't think anyone would deny the power of the dual-class thief in a player-vs-player confrontation. Of course, the WS/T could just detect illusions, use a scroll of Protection From Magic on the Sorceror and beat him to a pulp that way. Sure, the Sorceror bolts until the effect expires some number of turns later, but how are you going to survive an enemy that sees through your magic and which you can't detect or outfight without your magic - and which doesn't have to damage you to cripple you?

@Scythe: unless your Wizard Slayer is equipped with a bow, he stands little chance against a good Sorcerer.

I'd like to see how your Wizard Slayer can cope with Time Stop, or Chain Contingency: Sunfirex3 at 75% HP.

I dont understand how can anyone think the sorcerer could win. The WS/T has all kind of ability that the Sorcerer has, thanks the HLA. Plus the Thief and Wizard Slaying abilities.

The thief always walks in shadow. When spots the enemy sorcerer immediately runs behind him. This time is not enough to cast True Sight. So the WS/T has the first hit - but maybe the second and third also. (Dont mind the stoneskin, the 10% penalty just ignores it.) After that they can use the same tactics, just with the 10%-30% difference. That's a lot. (Dont forget the WS/T can cast everything from scrolls)

And the WS/T can run away anytime and the Sorcerer can't follow him/her because with that he/she would risk running into a trap.

I can even imagine a hit&run tactic also. Spot the sorcerer, fire 2 arrow, run, wait until the chained spells disappear than do that again and again. Thiefs are not straight fighters at all. They would act like this I think. Soon the sorcerer will spoil all of his/her spells....

I'm glad opinion is devided... I myself think it is too close to call.

@LdyWench... I play a sort of mainly solo sort of game... I tend to grab people as I need them. I do their quests with them then dump them.
By the time I got UAI all the other characters are almost useless. They just sort of stand around waiting for me to kill things with my lead character.

Strangely Aerie is the best one to tag along for the longest periods... Since I've loads of equipment she's got over 60 hps.... and of course can cast loads of different spells. When fully buffed she is actually a reasonable tank :D

In this instance, I'd have to say that the Wz/Thf would beat the Sorcerer...though it pains me greatly to say it, Sorcs being my favorite class and all. :(

UAI is just too cheesy... :(

@ Greystar: And how are you going to spot him, let alone hit him? The WS/T will be hiding and using a Cloak of Non-Detection, making him completely invisible. The guy can load up all the defensive items he will ever need before attacking, and since it's easy to make yourself immune to elemental damage, all the WS/T needs is to get close enough to use his Protection From Magic scroll ON the Sorceror. Chain Contingency anything you want, it can be defended against (probably Sunfire or Abi-Dalzim's, both of which can be reduced/stopped easily with magic and fire resistance) - and if it doesn't kill the WS/T, kiss your Sorceror goodbye as the WS/T switches to a ranged weapon and hits you ten times before wiping the floor with your now-magic-less Sorceror. Hell, doing that doesn't even require UAI...

@ Valer: Wish spell with a high-Wisdom Sorceror will frequently allow a full recovery of all spells cast. Given enough time, he will run out, but there's no guarantees of when. The problem in a Sorceror v Anybody Else battle is that the non-sorceror can't afford to just take everything the Sorceror will throw at them first - a full barrage will wipe you out. Of course, since you can stop him from ever being able to cast it, it should be almost a moot point.

Hello -

@Geoff:

the WS//T can cast from scrolls to get any spell he wants. He can also wear the Robe of the Vecna if he plans on using lots of scrolls. Vecna does not speed up spells cast from scrolls. The sorcerer is going to have a huge casting time advantage.

@NonSequitur:

all the WS/T needs is to get close enough to use his Protection From Magic scroll ON the Sorceror. I doubt this could ever happen to a competent sorcerer. All the sorcerer would need to do is instacast invisibility (or use contingency to insta-cast it without Vecna), and the WS/T would get a "can't cast a spell on invisible target" message and would lose his scroll, too.

IMO a sorcerer played to the fullest will steamroll anything else. It's possible for the sorcerer to win fights with the game PAUSED, for god's sake! UAI may be cheesy but emptying half of your spellbook with the game paused is even more so. :)

all the WS/T needs is to get close enough to use his Protection From Magic scroll ON the Sorceror IIRC, we had this same discussion on the Berserker vs. Sorcerer thread. After play testing, it was discovered that a mage or sorcerer can still cast spells after protection from magic is cast upon him. Evidently, the Protection from Magic only affects incoming magic, not outgoing magic.

Another thing to consider is where is the fight taking place? Are we in a fighting pit, or an area where a character can roam around?

One thing that could really tilt the fight in favor of the wizard slayer would be the use of Vhailor's Helm - let the clone do the initial work while the w/s helps out in the background (eg detect illusions), and have the w/s come in later if needed.

I know a simulacrum scroll would accomplish the same thing, but then the scroll is gone; the Helm is still available for future battles.

BTW, can a wisard slayer use the cloak of non-detection without UAI?

@The Shaman: Nope

@ Greystar: And how are you going to spot him, let alone hit him? The WS/T will be hiding and using a Cloak of Non-Detection, making him completely invisible. The guy can load up all the defensive items he will ever need before attacking, and since it's easy to make yourself immune to elemental damage, all the WS/T needs is to get close enough to use his Protection From Magic scroll ON the Sorceror. Chain Contingency anything you want, it can be defended against (probably Sunfire or Abi-Dalzim's, both of which can be reduced/stopped easily with magic and fire resistance) - and if it doesn't kill the WS/T, kiss your Sorceror goodbye as the WS/T switches to a ranged weapon and hits you ten times before wiping the floor with your now-magic-less Sorceror. Hell, doing that doesn't even require UAI...If you want to do it that way, then I can always use my Staff of the Magi & Cloak of Non detection (it won't disrupt your spellcasting if you know how to wield it).

And if you use the scroll of protection from magic on me, I will just make myself invisible and run away for 10 minutes and wait for your protection to wear off. And when it does, it takes little skill to finish the match.

The only weapon the WS/T has over the Sorcerer is trap, which can be disabled using summons (invisible stalker or mordy sword come to mind)

[ December 02, 2004, 04:17: Message edited by: Greystar ]

IIRC, we had this same discussion on the Berserker vs. Sorcerer thread. Was wondering why it hadn't come up again. Must be a bugged scroll - it's supposed to stop all spellcasting and spell effects on the target.

And if you use the scroll of protection from magic on me, I will just make myself invisible and run away for 10 minutes and wait for your protection to wear off.Detect Illusions penetrates everything, IIRC - even that vicious SI: Div + Mislead combo. Make no mistake - I don't think it'd be easy, I just think the basic WS/T should be able to go 50/50 with a basic sorceror. After all, there are so many variables to take into account - spell selections, items, location, preparation time - that will potentially shape the result.

I doubt this could ever happen to a competent sorcerer. All the sorcerer would need to do is instacast invisibility (or use contingency to insta-cast it without Vecna), and the WS/T would get a "can't cast a spell on invisible target" message and would lose his scroll, too.Depending on the timing, I'm not sure you'd get the chance - those scrolls go off extremely quickly, and you wouldn't be visible until the actual point at which the scroll was used. Interesting timing question - will have to ask around about it.

Detect Illusions penetrates everythingAnd Cloak of Non detection prevents all detection spells, and I mean "run away", not just hide.

@Greyster... Detect illusion is not a spell :D .

It is my belief it is superior to true sight in this respect... But both only work once a round. That is a long while in this sort of battle!

@Greystar: Summoning anything won't help the Sorcerer. Clever WS/T would set a spike trap and a time trap in pairs. Summoned creatures would just provide some time for the WS/T to pump arrows to the sorceror.

Mages must be still and of them summons otherwise they risk the time trap... How many Imprisonment spells can be memorized at that level? Because I think that is the only spell what dont cares the MR and effective enough.

But that would happen if the WS/T just surrounds the Sorcerer with traps just on the edge of the seen area and than starts casting Cloud Kills, Fireballs, and every other things to the middle? To the war of fog...

Which is why we need to set conditions before we can describe this.

Are we in a fighting pit or an open area?

Are we alllowed to totally pre-buff before a battle, or is this just like running into each other where you wouldn't have time to do things like set exact Chain Contingencies and Time Traps all over the place?

There are certainly more, but these are two basics that have to be answered prior to talking specifics.

I couldn't agree more Aldeth... Needless to say as the originator of this thread I'm satisfied that the fight would be a close one and the layout of the arena and the skill of the player would be important...

...therefore Ive changed my previously held belief that in a one-on-one a sorceror would easily beat all comers (largely held as a result of the beserker vs sorcerer thread).

Anyone else got a class that could give either of these two a good workout in a one-on-one. Cue a Scythesong Immortal 'blade' rant :D

I think we should follow the style of the game.

I mean just walking in dungeons, towns and forests when suddenly you face with a Sorcerer or WS/T in a red circle. (Maybe he/she is just doing the quests as you do too...) What do you do at that moment? Just the difference is that your enemy is as clever as you are...

We have to collect all the areas in BG2+ToB and roll with dice, which will be the current one. Of course twice bigger area should have twice bigger likelyhood. Junctions like inns and frequently visited places must be more likely too...

Funny thing is that if these two characters were in the same dungeon chances are they would walk straight past each other as both would have invisibility up :D

OK how about this. They are at opposite corners of one of those very small areas (not more than 2, 2 and a half screens wide on my comp) like when you get ambushed. It is an open area. Neither starts buffed *at all*.
Since sorc spell selection rarely varies if you know what you are doing, be don't need to worry about that. The question is- what HLA's has the F/t chosen? At 4million exp say. Gotta set a standard.

Another big question is what the sorcerer has in his triggers and contingencies... This largely is dependent of whether he knows what he is up against. I would venture a lot of these normally contain stoneskin and spell protections... not very usefull against a WS/T.

@chiz65_ My WS/T has UAI, Time Trap x 4 + Loads of Spike Traps. He has no Fighter HLA's because of when he dualed. Being honest that is all he ever needs. I never place the traps arond blue circled enemies but do lure them onto trap areas all the time.
(Maybe cheese to some but that is what they are there for!)

What do you mean in the title of the topic:
"the most powerful"?

Because if we would drop the WS and S to Irenicus dungeon and let them complete the game, WS/T could finish it in much shorter time. This means he/she is much more effective...

see, this makes me feel inferior; like I am not taking full advantage of my sorcerer. In most battles she casts chaos so the hackers can step in and cut and slash, or if magic users are present she'll use breach or a higher variant to get their protections down, and then see hacker comment from above. Lots of finger of death and summon fill in the blank. I don't think I use her offensive capabilities well. Or her abilities to assist the group. Any good links out there on sorcerer use/stratagy? (any maybe some on spelling and typing )

Well...I'm currently in the middle of framing an FAQ right now, but its going pretty slow so I dunno when I can even have the first draft ready...interested?

There's a sorcerer's guide here (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/index.php) (near the bottom)

As for spelling and typing, you could check with Arabwel. :p :lol: