I was thinking about how powerful sorcerers are, and of ways to tone them down a bit. How about soloing a sorcerer, and only being able to use spells that aren't normally used. Has anyone done this? Is it doable? A list of spells that are "usable" would be something like these:

1: chill touch, color spray, grease, infravision, larloch's minor drain, shocking grasp, charm

2: deafness, detect invisibility, ghoul touch, glitterdust, know alignment, luck, power word: sleep, ray of enfeeblement, vocalize

3: clairvoyance, dire charm, hold person, hold undead, invisibility 10' radius, monster summoning 1, minor spell deflection, non-detection, prot. from cold, prot. from fire, prot. from normal missles, vampiric touch

4: contagion, emotion: helplessness, enchanted weapon, farsight, fireshield: blue, minor sequencer, monster summoning 2, Otiluke's resilent sphere, polymorph self, remove curse, teleport field

5: cloudkill, conjure lesser air/earth/fire elemental, domination, feeblemind, hold monster, minor spell turning, monster summoning III, phantom blade, prot. from acid, prot. from electricity, shadow door

6: chain lightning, death fog, disintegrate, flesh to stone, power word: silence, stone to flesh, wyvern call, spider spawn

7: cacofiend, control undead, delayed blast fireball, mass invisibility, power word: stun, prisimatic spray, sphere of chaos, khelben's warding whip

8: incendiary cloud, maze, power word: blind, summon fiend, symbol: fear, symbol: stun

9: black blade of disaster, energy drain, freedom, meteor swarm, power word: kill, shapechange, Wail of the banshee


I suppose once you got to a high enough level you could do it, but it would be difficult to not rely on the standard spells.

Probably not possible, since the first 3 levels dont have any damaging spells. Neither are there mass sleep, confusion spells. So I'd say it isnt likely.

With that spell list you would probably be cut to ribbons in no time. You seem to have left very little in the way of pure offensive or defensive spells. Also you have removed most of the spells that could be used to counter enemy defensive spells. A recipe for disaster if I ever saw one.

Here's an idea...how about make a sorcerer and randomly roll for spells. That could actually be really interesting. Anyone ever done it?

Spider Spawn is not a level 6 spell.

I think you should list spells you're not allowed to use instead and perhaps limit to banning four spells per level. That should be enough to cover almost all the most used spells and be a little bit more lenient.

I think it's doable with the spells you've listed, but would rather have another list, based on my suggestion of banning four spells per level.

Here's a suggestion of banned spells:
1: MM, Chrom Orb, Sleep, PfEvil
2: Mirror Image, Blur, Web, Melf's AA
3: Fireball, Skull Trap, MMM, Haste
4: Stone Skin, Greater Malison, Polymorph Self, Minor Sequencer
5: Breach, Lower Resistance, Animate Dead, Spell Immunity
6: Mislead, True Sight, Death Spell, Pf Magical Weapons
7: Project Image, Mordenkainen's Sword, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Spell Sequencer
8: Abi Dalzim's HW, Simulacrum, Pierce Shield, Spell Trigger
9: Chain Contingency, Time Stop, Wish, Shapechange

I've thought about getting a sorcerer like this for use in a totally player created party -- he'd be the guy that has the spells that are hard to find on scrolls for the use of regular mages. But he'd really kind of suck in a lot of ways, especially with spells like Infravision (who included that spell in the game, and WHY?)

He doesn't have to take Infravision, it's just one of the spells he still may pick.

I forgot to say that I think this is a very interesting idea.
Thumbs up to nataben1314 ! :)

The thought sortof came to me when I found a scroll of shocking grasp and realized that I have never once in my illustrious history of Baldur's Gate games ever cast it. It seemed a shame that

1. sorcerers are so overpowered because of a few particular spells

2. most spells are never used

Imagine beating mages without the help of precious spells like breach, imagine getting through melee fights without stoneskin, mirror image, magic missle, skull trap, or fireball! This could perhaps provide the fun of a spellcaster without the overpowered nature of a normal solo sorcerer.

I've tried randomly rolling for a sorcerer's spell list in p n p and it can be quite interesting lol :p

My 2 1st level spells were Endure Elements and Ray of Enfeeblement. :D

Personally, I'd think that the kind of sorcerer you've suggested nataben1314 is best suited to a party based game and not a solo one. Though if you are able to get far in the game using that spell list then good on you :)

Remember to spend much money buying spells until you can kill things properly

Yes, what about buying scrolls and casting the "banned" spells from them? It wouldn't last too long, but it could be a way around the restriction, so should that be allowed?

I'm seriously considering this now.

Perhaps it could be allowed... I'm not familiar with exactly how many scrolls of said spells there are available. I suppose if it is around 5-6 or less it would be fine, since you would only use them for the toughest battles. The main thing we are trying to avoid with this is the standard sorcerer (cast best spells, rest, cast best spells, rest).

Another idea I had was to use a sorcerer but have a rule that you must use every spell in your book before you can rest, but this really wouldn't probably be very difficult.

Using every spell sounds too contrived to me.

What do you think about my suggestion of banning the four most used sorcerer spells per level as an alternative to the list you initially posted?
Any of the spells you'd change?

At first I thought it was a great idea to give the more unused spells a fair chance to show what they really go for. But when I really though about it, it turned out to be a really bad idea. The reason for why there are two groups, used and unused is not because some are immensely owerpowerd and some are just average. It's because some may be used in all most any situation and some are just crap. I strongly believe that some spells were created only to fill out some quota. But then there are probably some spells that just didn't get the proper scripting due to lack of time.

Between, are we talking party or solo Sorcerer? I'm having a hard time figuring out how a solo Sorcerer could even manage Chateau Irenicus without Stone Skin, MM and Chromatic Orb.

I think your way is good, Earl Grey. And since I do not know the spells as well as you do, I would say your list is good (although I never knew polymorph self was a good spell! what is it used for?).

Algarion, I think Irenicus' dungeon could be managed with some cruddy damage spells (whatever happens to be available... maybe shocking grasp or vampiric touch or something like that). Just fire spell, cast invisibility, rest, repeat.

It would be tedious, but I think at least doable.

If that's the way you like to play the game then go for it!

I would prefer a sorcerer with a bit wider spell book. Not just the standard spells but some of the ones that you mentioned in your first post. Like I said before, many of the unused spells really stink. If you created a Sorcerer with all those unused spells you would end up using only a few of them, the only ones that actually worked decently in most situations. A mix of popular and un-popular spells would give you the safety to try different strategies whit the unused while you relayed on your standards to finish of the situation in case something went wrong.

But how would you possibly decide how many spell slots would go to popular spells, and vice-versa? Methinks that even if you were allowed only one or two slots per level for popular spells most people would just end up using those, resting, repeating.

It can be done.
I've soloed an Enchanter relying only on enchantment spells (and an alteration/abjuration spell or two) and if you know your way around it gets easier as you gain levels.

You'll need a working knowledge of the properties of the items and equipment in the game, though, since you'll be relying on more than just your spells to see you through.
Offensive Spellflinging seems to be a favorite amongst Sorcerer/Mage-users in this board, which is as it should be. But it should also be known that there are other effective tactics Mages can employ.
Especially in BG2.

Most of the unused spells are underrated.
Although some are indeed useless, its your overall selection of spells that count. Some spells can work wonders only when used with other spells- and this is how it usually works for the non direct-damage spells.

I'm with Scythesong. With the exception of a few spells I consider truly essential (such as Breach, Ruby Ray Of Reversal), it should be possible to pick "non-optimal" spells and succeed. I would have thought that a creative player could find good uses for underrated spells, especially in a spell sequencer/trigger. Charm and Hold are always strong, but undervalued when magics with more obvious applications are selectable (such as Abi-Dalzim's, Time Stop, etc). Combining them with spells like Greater Malison or using magic to *avoid* combat or strategically separate enemies, throwing in a summon or three and turning them against one another, it can be even more effective than throwing out blasty-spells-o'-death.

A great part of this is that you might get to see the graphic effects of some spells for the first time!

I never knew polymorph self was a good spell! what is it used for?Polymorph Self is used mainly to gain 100% magic resistance by morphing to the Mustard Jelly. It can be a true lifesaver.
There are only two spells I consider great at 4th level and those are Stoneskin and Greater Malison.

are we talking party or solo Sorcerer? I'm having a hard time figuring out how a solo Sorcerer could even manage Chateau Irenicus without Stone Skin, MM and Chromatic Orb.Solo sorcerer.

If those three spells are the only ones you are not allowed to use then getting through Irenicus Dungeon is a piece of cake. :)

Chromatic Orb is IMO overrated. I've never liked it. The save is at +6 for heaven's sake!
Besides it is bugged since it disregards magic resistance in its Stun, Petrification and Slay abilities. You need to get the fix for that if you decide to use this spell.

Most of the unused spells are underrated.I agree. When comparing one spell with another it's so easy to discard the weaker one and then, subconsciously or not, think of it as a "crappy" spell.

Time now to plan the "Lesser Sorcerer" spell selection! :)
Without Greater Malison, most save or else spells will probably have a hard time making the cut.

I'll be back! ;)

Edited:
Almost finished with Irenicus' Dungeon.
I picked these starting spells:
1:
- Friends
- Larloch's Minor Drain
- Reflected Image
- Shield
- Spook
2:
- Agannazar's Scorcher
- Knock
- Glitterdust
3:
- Slow
- Lightning Bolt

[ July 29, 2004, 17:19: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

Great to see someone trying this idea, Earl Grey! I'm anxious to see how hard (or easy) it turns out to be. :thumb:

Here is my planned spell list:

Level 1
Larloch's is the replacement for MM and Reflected Image is the replacement for Mirror Image.
Spook has a -6 save. Shield is nice very early on and protects against MM's. Friends is for cheaper shopping.
- Friends --- (1)
- Larloch's Minor Drain --- (1)
- Reflected Image --- (3)
- Shield --- (5)
- Spook --- (7)

Level 2
- Agannazar's Scorcher --- (4)
- Knock --- (5)
- Glitterdust --- (7)
- Invisibility --- (9)
- Resist Fear --- (11)

Level 3
Remove Magic is taken early only because it automatically dispels Mirror Image and Project Image. I´ll use Remove Magic as a replacement for True Sight.
Vampiric Touch does not require an attack roll.
- Slow --- (6)
- Lightning Bolt --- (7)
- Flame Arrow --- (9)
- Remove Magic --- (11)
- Vampiric Touch --- (22)

Level 4
Spider Spawn is the early summoning, if this spell was not allowed I'd have to go with MS I or MS II.
Teleport Field is anti-melee.
- Spider Spawn --- (8)
- Teleport Field --- (9)
- Spirit Armor --- (11)
- Farsight --- (13)
- Polymorph Other --- (23)

Level 5
Oracle - the second replacement spell for True Sight.
Feeblemind saves at -2 and so might prove useful at some point even without Greater Malison.
- Cloudkill --- (10)
- Sunfire --- (11)
- Oracle --- (13)
- Chaos --- (15)
- Feeblemind --- (28)

Level 6
Death Fog replaces Death Spell as the summons killer.
Invisible Stalker is a good summons and replaces Mordenkainen's Sword as well as Animate Dead.
Pierce Magic replaces Lower Resistance.
Tenser's Transformation is supposed to be cast after casting Black Blade of Disaster. Hopefully that will work. :)
- Invisible Stalker --- (12)
- Death Fog --- (13)
- Pierce Magic --- (15)
- Tenser's Transformation --- (21)
- P f Magic Energy --- (30)

Level 7
Both Pf Elements and Energy (8th level spell) are taken so that I can get total immunity by casting both (and not abusing the stacking bug).
- Delayed Blast Fireball --- (14)
- Summon Hakeashar --- (15)
- Mass Invisibility --- (17)
- Limited Wish --- (22)
- P f Elements --- (31)

Level 8
Improved Mantle is the replacement for Pf Magical Weapons.
- Power Word, Blind --- (16)
- Incendiary Cloud --- (17)
- Improved Mantle --- (19)
- P f Energy --- (23)

Level 9
Imprisonment - casting time 1 (manual erroneously says 9), no save, ignores MR - it could be useful!
- Spellstrike --- (18)
- Spell Trap --- (19)
- Black Blade of Disaster --- (20)
- Imprisonment --- (25)

There are a few spells I'm unsure about. Farsight would be nice to have earlier. Cloudkill might have been a bad choice, since you can just use the wand instead.
I hate Lightning Bolt! Very rarely can I get a good result from it.

I've made it to level 11. Finished Copper Coronet, Riddle in the Sewer, Slavers in the Slums and the Circus quests.
Reputation is at 20 so I've just bought the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength and the Robe of Vecna.
Next purchase will be the Staff of Rhynn.
Here we go! :D

Edited:
Swapped places between Invisible Stalker and Death Fog.

Edited again:
Swapped places between Improved Invisibility and Farsight.

Edited once again:
Incendiary Cloud added, Bigby's is out.
Mass Invisibility and Limited Wish switched places.
Impr Invisibility is out and Polymorph Other takes it's place.

[ August 03, 2004, 10:07: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

This brings up an interesting question about "lesser" spells -- I have never cast certain spells (infravision comes to mind) but the one that was just mentioned by Earl has me thinking -- Friends. It boosts your Charisma, but does that boost your reputation as well, thus lowering the cost of items? Is there ANY other use for this spell in a game mechanics sense? I can totally see how it would be a powerful spell in PnP, but in the computer games, most of the enchantment spells I find are too weak -- they fail too often.

Try to keep a good pair of daggers .
A dagger dual-wielding wizard is better than one wielding a staff, especially when your enemies are held/asleep. Held and Sleeping enemies suffer massive AC penalty, and any character can hit them just about regardless of THAC0.

It's because of this that I suggest you pick some spells with hold/sleeping effect to replace some lower level ones. You won't be using direct damage spells much (since all of these fit into both the "usable" and "overrated" category), so Dagger-Dual Wielding+Held/Sleeping spells is an alternative that can help you get through the easier encounters unscathed. The Wand of Paralysis can be used in place of the spells, but getting it early on can be a problem.

For a replacement level 5 spell I suggest Carrion Summons, another underrated spell, which is perhaps one of most effective anti-wizard summon in the game. As long as the Wizard is humanoid the Carrion Crawlers will keep them at bay, regardless of their protections. You can try your luck with this one also. :)


Perhaps the biggest problem with the "lesser spells" spell list is the lack of ideal summons and offensive spells. The first one is taken cared of by the many summoning items in the game (not that many actually, but many enough) but getting around the second one is the problem. Killing the stronger monsters, Undead and bosses will form the more challenging part of the solo, and for this I wish you luck.

@Lord Keldin
Enchantment Spells are perhaps the most powerful spells in the game - provided they succeed and provided that the particular monster they are targetting isn't immune to the effect.
Since the game is particularly good at making everything immune to enchantment spells and making your low-level enemies succeed their saves while your high level party gets ripped to shreds with a mere Confusion Spell, though, they are particularly underpowered.
As for Enchantment Spells working as per PnP, if only Lionheart was as good as BG2...

[ July 30, 2004, 16:27: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

Both reputation and Charisma modifies the cost of items.
With rep 20, "that" ring and casting Friends you get the best possible price.

Quite a few encounters are modified by your charisma. Since you so easily can get 18 charisma via that ring, the spell Friends is AFAIK pointless except as a means of getting the best possible price.

I've reached 1 million xp now and even though some spells are sorely missed I'm getting the feeling that as you add more and more spells to the arsenal it's getting more like a normal solo sorcerer.

I got the Orog ambush (6 or so orogs and two humans) when the only spells remaining was two level 2 spells. That was nasty. I drank a potion of speed and twice cast Agannazar's followed by running around the enemies to hit as many as possible with the fire. Then it was a matter of running and using the sling.
What was really hair raising was that after handling that ambush and being completely out of spells I ran straight into a standard ambush (mage and four other humans) before getting home! I had to defeat them all by using the trusty sling. :eek:

In the Skinner quest it was necessary to use a scroll of True Sight which I had picked up somewhere. I got killed in the first try as Glitterdust is not quite as good as True Sight. ;)
Those Rune Assassins are really dangerous!

A dagger dual-wielding wizard is better than one wielding a staff, especially when your enemies are held/asleep.Yes, I took Dagger proficiency as my third proficiency for that purpose. Even without disabling spells, dual wielding two daggers might prove useful at some point. There are a few daggers with nice effects and that was actually my main reason for taking that proficiency.

Without Greater Malison I really don't like the idea of taking spells that are save-or-else. I view each reload as a huge defeat so I prefer "sure things" so to speak.

Edited:
I just reached 1.6m xp and here is an update on the spells.
- Spook has not been used even once.
- Glitterdust is very unreliable, but sometimes it has been good. Not spectacular, just good.
- Agannazar's has been quite useful, with the ability to cast and then try to catch several targets by moving. Obviously great to finish off trolls with.
- Lightning Bolt was only used in Irenicus' Dungeon and even then it was irrelevant. Agannazar's or even Larloch's could have been used with practically the same effect.
- Remove Magic has been good. There are two reasons for that: soloing means the level of the protagonist is higher than normal so the chance of success is good and secondly it's automatic dispel of Mirror Image (and Project Image) which is a bug.
- Teleport Field has not been that great on the few occasions when I've used it. Spider Spawn takes priority among the 4th level spells, so TF just never gets cast.
- Cloudkill, Sunfire (after casting Invisibility) and Invisible Stalker are frequently used.

Edited again:

I've had one problem with a Greater Wolfwere.
My summons were unable to do anything but soak up attacks and my magic attacks were hindered by a combinations of high magic resistance (50% I believe) and very high regeneration.
I solved it by casting many (about 8) Delayed Blast Fireballs in one place and then, by running in a half circle, leading it into the fireballs. Even though it resisted many of the fireballs it died instantly.

I reached 3m xp at the start of the Asylum.
With the addition of 9th and quest level spells I feel that this test can be concluded as with spells like Summon Planetar, Dragon's Breath, Energy Blades and Improved Alacrity the sorcerer is again on top.

To me this means that this experiment has been successfully finished. The "lesser sorcerer", with the restrictions that I posted, is very viable.

[ August 03, 2004, 10:01: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]