Introducing a new Ranger class, one of many to come to the BG2 community. I am looking for a few testers to help me balance this Ranger kit. I will display the Ranger kit advantages and disadvantages in hopes to help me balance the kit so that its not over powering to the game.

Dragon Master is a ranger specially trained to battle dragons. Some dragon masters consider themselves to be on a holy mission of some sort or another, while others are simply part of an guild of rangers dedicated to protecting humanity from one or more types of evil dragons.

A dragon master is easy to recognize. Most of the time you can tell what a Dragon Master has killed based upon the weapons and armor he carries. Dragon Masters will forge their weapons out of the evil dragons they have slain. Their main special ability is that they studdied the druidic art of shape changing as well as severe training in two-handed weapons such as the halbred, spear, bow and two-handed sword. The Dragon Master is a very good edition to any adventuring party. Their primary goal is to seek out the evil dragons of the world.

Advantages:
- +2 Dexterity
- +1 Constitution
- Cast Cure Light Wounds (Level 1)
- Cast Detect Evil (Level 1-8)
- Cast Protection from Evil (Level 1-8)
- Cast Lay on Hands (Level 1)
- Cast Remove Fear (Level 1-8)
- Immune to Fear
- Immune to Poison
- Immune to Morale Failure
- Magic Resistance 2% per Level
- Cast Resurrection (Level 10)
- Cast Paralization (Level 11)
- Cast Cone of cold (Level 12)
- Shift Change to a Silver Dragon (Level 20
- 4 Prof slots to halbred, spear, bow, and two-handed sword
- 4 Prof slots to two handed weaps

Disadvantages
- Cant be any evil alignment
- -3 to str

I know there needs to be more Disadvantages to the kit. Thats where the testers come in not only to help in this area as well as to find bugs that I may have over looked. Which I do not think there is any bugs. I will let the testers decide that to help fine tune this good class. I have others that need tuning but have to start somewhere. If you want to help me test this class just send me a burd76@comcast.net and I will send you the exe to install Alpha 3 Build. I am also almost done with a expansion pack to the game but thats not ready yet for testing. But i will say this it adds to TDD and SOS fixing alot of problems that are still in those expansions as well as adding to the game as well. I will post when that is closer to Alpha release. For now I am focusing on the kits that will be in the expansion.

I think this is more than a little overpowered - why would a dragon-slayer shapeshift into a dragon and gain breath-weapon-like powers? Also, with the stated attitudes you've listed, why is it a ranger kit - this seems more like a Paladin or Fighter kit/subclass to me. I'd revise as follows:

As a Paladin kit - very similar to the Cavalier...

Advantages:
---------------
Immune To Fear/Morale Failure
+4 to hit/damage vs. any dragon
+2% resistance to fire, cold, acid and lightning per level
Indomitable Will once per day: the Dragon Master gains +4 to both Con and Str, and an additional +20% resistance to fire, cold, lightning and acid damage for level/2 rounds. At level 18, this becomes +6 to both stats and +30% to resistances.

Disadvantages:
---------------
Standard paladin disadvantages
Cannot use ranged weapons or draconic items (ie: anything containing dragon scales, blood, skin etc.)
Cannot Turn Undead or cast spells
-4 reaction penalty vs. dragons

Still very powerful, but tailored to fight dragons. Not so uber as before.

As a fighter kit -

Advantages:
--------------
Bonuses to hit/damage dragons, immune to fear/morale failure (as above)
Righteous Fury 1/day per 4 levels: the Dragon Master gains +1 STR, CON and DEX for every three levels, +2 to all saving throws, and gains one additional attack per round. This effect lasts for level/2 rounds.

Disadvantages:
---------------
Cannot use ranged weapons or draconic items
Must be of Good or Neutral alignment
-4 reaction penalty vs. dragons

Just my 2c - feel free to accept or reject any/all of it.

maybe i should of gone abit more into detail on why its a ranger. Ranger typically every one pictures a bow and arrow in hand with leather armor on and ability to charm animals and has a set point of advantage of over a certain type of monster. This Ranger Kit is designed to be that exactly but they gone into farther into developing and honing their skill further, I recall there is a kit in DnD that does allow shapechanging but like I said I thru out the idea as a Ranger and a Ranger is what he will stay. This is why I put up a post on him to get feedback and ways to help reform his original ideas because main reason is the expansion pack that is almost ready to come out involves this ranger kit in a quest this is raw format and this is ideas me and the other people working on this expansion have would like to see on the ranger but like you said hes overpowering that is why me and the development team decided to put up a post to throw ideas we may have not thought of to help balance, and again ill say this class is Alpha form right now so any constructive critics is welcome. Maybe just give the ranger dragon spell abilities and not able to shapeshift into a dragon. Thanks for the ideas though but he will stay a ranger it would push back the expansion to change him to something else.
Ok here is the refitted Dragon Master in hopes of making him more balanced to the world of BG2

Advantages:
- +2 Dexterity
- +1 Constitution
- Cast Cure Light Wounds (Level 1-8)
- Two-Handed Weapon Specialization ++++
- +15% to Hide in the Shadows
- Fire, Acid, Electrical, and Cold Resistance 2% every 3 Levels
- +4 to hit/damage vs dragons
- Save vs Breath Bonus 2% per level

Disadvantages
- Must maintain a good or neutral alignment
- Bonus to AC vs Missle equivalent to having no armor
- Cannot wear greater than Studded Leather Armor

[ November 21, 2004, 09:03: Message edited by: Tramplar ]

Still it seems to be very powerful.
That +2 dexterity, coupled with being an elf, would allow for 21 dexterity, 22 if you got the tome in BGI!!
I like the idea of +4tohit/damage vs. dragons, the fire acid, elec, and cold resistances and save vs. breath bonuses. +1 constitution is also good. I would drop the dexterity bonus, the +15% to hide in shadows, and allow the playerto pick whatever weapons he wants (as a ranger normally would).

Rangers in BGII have to be of Good alignment - you can open up the kit to allow Neutral ones too but the character will still Fall if his reputation drops too low.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the second disadvantage: Does it mean that against missile attacks his AC is 10 + DEX modifier only? I don't see how that would fit the kit too well given that dragons aren't prone to using missile weapons.

Also, why can't he wear heavy armour?

I am not a big fan of stat modifiers to kits either - why is a ranger who attacks Dragons stronger than one who doesn't?

Also, you can't have a % bonus to a save in BGII, so it'd have to be a +1 bonus per 3 levels or something.

I also think it'd work better as a Fighter kit or something, though as a previous poster said the Cavalier sort of fills this role. A Ranger can take the Dragon as favoured enemy already, so if you wanted a Ranger themed against dragons that'd be one way of doing it. :)

Also, I'm not sure I understand the second disadvantageIf you wear full plate mail, you get a further -5 (is it 5?) to your AC vs. missles. So that gives you 9 + 5 = 14 AC bonus vs. missles just from the full plate mail. Other armours give this bonus as well, just in different amounts. Armour also gives bonuses to crushing and slashing damage.
Go to the record page and look at your armour class modifiers. Take everything off but your armour to see what it gives you.

That's what I thought he meant, yeh.

Yeah being weak against missles his armor would be 14 AC with no armor on, since they focused so much on battling dragons they actually get a double bonus if you think about it, +4 to Dragon hit bonus as well as a additional 4 if you choose dragon in natural enemy list. Toyed with the notion to adjust thaco against missles as well but thought -8 modifier to AC against missles will make it rough enough being that there is alot of missle type enemies in game

Umm.. with no armour on, his base AC should still be 10, vs. missles or not. No armour gives no bonuses to missle AC. But, if you're wearing full plate (he can't, because of restrictions, but let's just say..) then he receives an AC bonus of nine (full plate has an AC of 1) vs. everything, but does not receive the normal +5 AC bonus vs. missles that full plate gives (once again, if it is infact 5).

So, what you are really saying, is he receives a penelty to missle AC, regardless of the armour he's wearing.
And where did you get that -8 modifer from? Shouldn't it be -4, if he has a base AC of 14 vs. missles. Or is that 14 vs. missles including the dex modifier?

Geoff your right i did the math instead of a quick quess and your right, and thats without modd to dex which i will probably be taking off of him. But having some bugs with the way the modifier for missles is working. So that might not be released with him till I sort out the problem with that but his other abilities are working fine just that one giving me slight problems, his beta build will be ready to download either tomorrow or the day after after i do some extreme testing with him the next day or so. Yes to those of you I am aware TDD has a Dragon Slayer Fighter, i like the challenge of making a class that is good do something abit extreme. Was toying with the idea of maybe creating so type of pet for the dragon master. That will be able to work with the ranger some way or another. I think the only way that would work was to make it a familiar type say for example a dire wyrm. have it protect the ranger to its death and not able to be completely controlled but controlled enough. basically like a familiar is to a sorceror if it would die would cause the ranger to lose a stat of some sort. What do you all think of a idea like that to make the dragon master more of a controller of minor dragons much more like a rangers abilities instead of a slayer type. Just ideas would like to get feedback on this would be apprieciated.

Tramplar, I'm with you on the controlling idea. From the title Dragon Master, I'd assume the more controlling 'Dragon Whisperer' type character, rather than the slayer type. To have some sort of affinity with dragons (I'm thinking of the movie Dragon Heart here), that would give this character abilities to charm, weaken, and elude dragons. Having a psuedo dragon familiar would work as well. I can definitely see a ranger in this.

sounds like a beastmaster :?
I too think that the ranger class could do with another cool kit. Though they've already got cool kits (stalker esp, archer kinda too), I just like rangers :p

Ok lady and gents The Dragon Master Ranger is up for Beta testing anyone interested plese let me know and ill send it via email since our website isnt launched yet. The kits advantages and disadvantages are as followed.

Advantages:
ABility to call a Dragon Companion (pseudo or fairy dragon)
Cast Cure Serious Wounds (Level 4, 7, 10)
+1 to Constitution
Racial Enemy +4 to hit (Assuming you chose dragon)
Fire/Ice/Elect/Acid Resistance +2 per level
Magic Resistance 2% per level equiv to 1 / level
++++ to Halbred, Spear, two-handed sword, and Long bow

Disadvantages:
Dragon Companion dies -1 to Con
Must maintain Good ALignment
Cannot wear greater then Stdded Leather
+ profiency to all other weapons (besides ones mentioned above)

I thank you to those of you that replied and gave suggestions it is greatly apprieciated, and stay tuned for more kits coming soon in the next few days and again thank you for the input was a great help. Want the new kit send email to burd76@comcast.net SUBJECT:KIT

If you want, you can send the file to me and I'll put it on SP for people to download. I won't list it anywhere on SP until it goes final, but you'll be able to just post a link to it so you don't have to send it to everyone manually. Check the submission guidelines (http://www.sorcerers.net/Info/Submissions/index.php).

The dragon is going to be a "familiar-esque" kind of creature?

Yes will be a familiar kind of creature. Original idea was to have the familiar type creature but have it able to go up in levels and progress with the Dragon Master. Had a few problems with that and would have to lean towards more of a NPC type companion. So yes Enagonios its been leaning in favor of the familiar-esque. May modify the 2 types of dragons to be slightly better in combat with you but again have to see how the current Dragon Master version will do and determine by what everyone likes and dislikes about the Dragon Master. Will decide the role the companion will have as well as any additional skills or taking away of skills to keep the kit balanced and fun to play.

oh okay, because it sounds like a really cool kit but it seems to be overpowered bec. it has too few disadvantages imo. The must maintain good alignment is a given for any ranger as it is and placing the proficiencies in the chosen weapons seems like a no-brainer bec. it allows you more slots than a regular ranger does (4 vs. 2), so restricting every other weapon to a proficiency doesn't really, er, restrict the class.

Seeing as this kit specializes in battling and killing dragons, hence the +4 bonus, it may be fair to give the kit disadvantages for a few other creatures. If he specialised so much in the dragon region the other regions must have suffered.

So give him -1 thaco and damage to all other creatures. Or -2 thaco and damage to a few dangerous ones like beholders and vampires.

Don't like it. Still way overpowered. Only has standard Ranger disadvantages (except being limited to + instead of ++ in most weapons, but this is more than offset by being able to get ++++ in all the best weapons in the game). And he/she gains monstrous benefits: familiar, innate spells, elemental resistance, magic resistance. Just how many magic items would a normal character have to have in order to get that many benefits? This is not balanced, not by a long shot. It's a powergamer's dream come true.

One more thing to add - while I agree that it seems overpowered, the 4+ to two handed weapon proficiency is impossible (at least I thought so). If I'm wrong, and this is in fact possible, what would be the bonus for having four, seeing as how the base game only gives bonuses up to 2+.

Fighters can get up to 5+, although Rangers are limited to 2+. It should be easy enough to alter the .2da than controls those limits.

No its not impossible to set any weapon for any class that allows the weapon to 1-5. But general rule of them I use is I try not to generalize the prof slots to those of a fighter having 5 all the way down pretty much. Anyways in response to Bombur and Aldeth the Foppish Idiot. First first post of original design to the Ranger I knew that was overpowering but this ranger and about 30 other kits for the new expansion im working on are being geared towards that and not towards a stock BG2 setup so keep that in mind as well as Im introducing one kit at a time to get feedback from everyone to design the kits to what people want and like but keeping them balance is what im looking to achieve. Oh and for everyone who is interested the new expansion thats coming out is called Dark Defiance and that is all that I will say about the expansion first the kits are being introduced, ok before I bore you all with rambling The ranger is coming along fine from advise from people who have posted Currently this is what his advantages and disadvantages are

Advantages:
Ability to call a Dragon Companion (pseudo or fairy dragon)
Cast Cure Serious Wounds (Level 4, 7, 10)
+1 to Constitution
Racial Enemy +4 to hit
Fire/Ice/Elect/Acid Resistance +2 per level

Disadvantages:
Dragon Companion dies -1 to Con
Must maintain Good Alignment
Cannot wear greater then Studded Leather
Cannot cast Priest spells
Only skilled to use LongSword, Halbred, Spear, two-handed sword, and Long bow

Oh on another note I do not think this ranger is over powering. Considering all he can use is his innate abilities , doesnt gain any spells from spell book, I took that away, only skilled in a few choice weapons, limited to studded leather armor, when you have your companion out with you if it dies you lose one constitution permanently, I took away magic resistance making it a weakness more then a advantage. Keeping the fire acid electrical and cold due to the fact dragons use those as breathe weapons making them only recieiving @ level 34 63% resistant to those. But i have plans to adjust that to instead of +2 per level to +1. Still having issues with the missle disadvantage but hope to have that ironed out soon. I have a new Update out for the ranger for those of you i have emailed it to I will send the update to you. I will have a webiste link within a day or so my personal server just about ready to fire up so keep checking back here for more information as well as we are looking for help for people who have some or alot of experience working with the infinity engine. Thats all i have to report for now any questions email me.

Bah, the ranger doesn't get priest spells, he gets druid spells. And all the good druid spells are high levels, much higher than level 3 (the max that a ranger can get). So taking those away really only gets rid of a bit of healing and maybe miscast magic / summon insects. Mind you, he's already got innate healing.

I still think the fundamental idea of this kit is flawed :/

Though you've already dropped it, I just wanted to pop in and mention that anything beyond two stars in two-handed weapon style adds nothing. This is, AFAIK, a hardcoded limitation.

The elemental resistances are very unbalanced. I would try to either replace them with another anti-dragon immunity (such as dragon fear or wing buffet) or limit them to be effective only against dragon breath attacks.

Already have dragon breath on the table as well and dragon fear and Wing Buffet, Just havent implemented anything to him yet because seems when we introduce the missle dephicit of being weak against missles it some reason or another counter acts with wing buffet. Either one will work and the other will not work. And thanks for the heads up didnt know two-handed prof was hard coded to 2. Learn something new everyday. As I move on its a mixture some people like the way he is some dont, cant make everyone happy That is why again i put this here so I can get the bashing and the suggestions to roll with him since original idea of the ranger was for him to have dragon abilities but seeing the replies made me and the others implement different strategies to the character and from my point of view You face a silver dragon say.. well silver dragon uses cone of cold and paralyze. True Cone of Cold from the silver dragon would be considered a breathe weapon but on the other hand would being 50% resistance to breath weapons be ok or would having 35% - 45% resistance to the elements be more fitting doesnt make him a god, doesnt par say hes unbalanced. May be on the touch overpowering but we could argue, contemplate, like, hate, bash, praise this kit till we are blue in the face and not to mention I have about 29 others right behind this one which arent as extreme as the ranger, but this ranger has these things for a reason. This is what will be implemented to Dragon Master Beta 1.0b

Advantages:
Ability to call a Dragon Companion (pseudo or fairy dragon)
Cast Cure Serious Wounds (Level 4, 7, 10)
Racial Enemy +4 to hit
Immune to Dragon Fear
Immune to Wing Buffet

Disadvantages:
Dragon Companion dies -1 to Con
Must maintain Good Alignment
Cannot wear greater then Studded Leather
Only skilled to use Halbred, Spear, Two-Handed Sword, and Long bow (++)
AC Penalty against missle attack

So as it stands this is what the ranger will have and will be tested any other ideas let me know otherwise if no bugs surface This ranger will be finalized and released in a few days and another kit will be presented to comment on

Dark Defiance... nothing like Dark Alliance I hope :D

Geoff: The Ranger gets Druid spells, yes, but these are a type of Priest spell. The Ranger/Druid and Cleric/Paladin spells are all Priest spells.

Trampler: Have you been able to force the kit to choose Dragons as favoured enemy?

Grr. You know what I meant :/ He doesn't get the useful cleric spells such as "Armour of Faith" and "Bless" and "Chant" and "Animate Dead" and "Holy Smite" and "Glyph of Warding". Instead, he gets such spells as "Entangling Roots" and "Shillegah" and "Flaming Sword" and "Call Lightning".
What a terrible trade off!

Yeh, I know, just clarifying. Probably should've included a . :)

And again, yes, I'd concur, the Druid spells are not IMO as useful as the Cleric ones.

To Enagonios: Nope no where near it. The story plot of this expansion pack is placed in a setting of where the dwarves and dragons are having bad conflicts with one another due to dragons taking over the caves the dwarves are mining in and vice versa. Not the main plot but one of many that are involved this specific quest is to investigate why the dragons are doing so and if there is a source behind it or not. but just a little teaser since we are introducing smaller dragons to the game and draconic relatives as well so itll be quite interesting. Itll have more quests then TDD and SOS combined as well as much needed fixes to BG2 as well as extended certain quests that seems to have just up quit not knowing the full truth about things. I would say TDD and SoS are to be compatible and may be tied to the story line itself but The guys would kill me if I reveal to much of whats going on. So I plead the 5th and remain silent about that 4 now

To Andyr: You are right about disabling the preist spells but was toying with it which would make it rougher for the Dragon Master to survive not having healing abilities as well as spells since his prime focus is understanding dragons and becoming one with them but dont have to worry that disabling of the spell casting has been lifted after a testing today against a young adult emerald dragon. if i was able to heal might of been able to survive the battle ran out of greater healing potions thats when i had problems lol. And the answer to forcing the ranger to take dragon as racial enemy we have tried to ways and both have failed do you have knowledge on how to bypass this please share would be of great use but if not its ok Ill figure it out soon enough if its unchangeable but as of right now since it cant be forced he does have a advantage of +4 temporarily until i resolve that issue. which shouldnt be a problem unless i find out its hard coded.

Has anyone else tried to force set racial enemy? If so has it worked or has it not been discovered how or is it just something we cannot do. If its doable alittle hint to as how would be much help thanks

[ November 26, 2004, 02:36: Message edited by: Tramplar ]

When I asked about forcing racial enemy it's because I don't know how to do it myself. ;) I don't think it is possible to force it.

Far as i can see, there is no way to force a racial enemy. Kinda of sad if you ask me so basically all I can really do is give him a bonus against dragons and if someone chooses dragon as racial enemy theyll have a bigger bonus verse them OR I can leave the dragon bonus off and let them decide who they want to be racial enemy leaving the structure of DM intact to what he has studied to be. Since he isnt a slayer type and doesnt consider them a racial enemy as it is. Since ive tried everything in the book to force racial set guess thats what im gonna have to do is let the player choose racial bonus. Kinda hurts the purpose of the DM but kinda forced to have it no other way. None the less true players will choose dragon as racial enemy to make the DM fully what he is. Even though hes a studier of dragons so to say and communicates with them when he can. So maybe it worked out for the better. We will see. If you would like to download the Dragon Master Ranger Kit you can do so at http://67.176.143.227 go to downloads section, please bare in mind the website was just put up and I am editing it probably as you come to it. I have alot of work to do to it so please have patience but the DM is up and working and can be downloaded. Feel free to explore the site nothing on it atm but is being updated constantly and will be 100% soon. I will be posting next Kit im working on. Scout (Thief Class) If link doesnt work let me know i will fix it ASAP.

Ok updates on progress Dragon Master (Ranger Kit)is at Final Beta and you can download him at this location use link above..... go to downloads section, please bare in mind the website was just put up and I am editing it probably as you come to it. ok now posting another Final Beta Kit that has been revamped Vampire Hunter (Paladin Kit) this is Pharaoh version of it.

Vampire Hunter:The Vampire Hunter has been raised from birth to hunt down the undead, and gives him exceptional combat bonuses against vampires and their kin.Long exposure to killing and hunting vampires has made their life-draining attacks innocuous to him. Nothing gets his adenaline pumping more then driving a stake through a vampires heart. Vampire Hunters are highly religious people and believe vampires are not Gods work and will vanquish all vampires they will meet in their lifetime. As a Paladin their oath has been sworn by the vampire hunters of long ago and passed down through generations that no vampire shall live safe as long as there are hunters of this caliber. With being immune to a majority of the vampires curses and diseases makes this Paladin a formidable foe to any vampire or undead creature.

Advantages:
Bonus to AC against crushing.
Immune to Level Drain.
Immune to Disease.
Immune to Slow.
+4 Against Vampires.
+1 to Wisdom.
+1 to Intelligence.
+1 to Charisma.

DisAdvantages:
Limited to Lawful Good Alignment
Cannot use any missle weapons
No skills in using 2-Handed Weapons
Spell casting limited to innate only.

This kit was Revamped by Pharaoh. So post away on what you think of his version of the Vampire Hunter for the BG II Expansion Dark Defiance. He will be monitoring this topic to use the feedback of his kit. I will be posting in next couple of days about the new kit im creating Scout (Thief Class).

[ November 29, 2004, 09:31: Message edited by: Tramplar ]