I was trying to d/l the Revised Hell Trials mod to check the readme. It took me to an outside link in German (I think) and I was supposed to log in with email and a password.

Last time I d/l this mod, I was able to do so with no problems or having to log in on another site. Is this new and if so, how do get in to d/l the mod?

Isn't the Revised Hell Trials part of the Quest Pack mod? Or is it a different mod ?

Revised Hell Trials is no longer available for public consumption by itself. It has been made a part of the PPG Quest Pack.

All righty...and what else is part of this Quest mod that I probably don't want?

Oh it's a nice mod, you would probably use the whole bunch ;) , nay I would take the quest stuff if I were you, but here's a link (http://mods.pocketplane.net/d0questpack_v2readme.htm) to PPGs Quest Packs readme

OMFG, it's this (http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=128&Itemid=89), isn't it? :nono: :grr: Bad, very bad. I don't want 'improved AI' and 'smarter/intelligent opponents'. I like stupid enemes! I don't play BG and BG2 for junk like this. I want to have some *fun*, not frustration. And I liked the Hell Trials mod! Maybe I have a backup cd from my OS rehaul weeks ago. Gods, I hope so.

You just have to install hell trials, no more no less. :)

Or, if you're really desparate to make sure none of the "extraneous" stuff gets in, I could just e-mail it to you. I've still got it from back when it was still available. :)

Bad, very bad. I don't want 'improved AI' and 'smarter/intelligent opponents'.Don't install those components then.

I like stupid enemes! I don't play BG and BG2 for junk like this. I want to have some *fun*, not frustration.Quest Pack is not, in fact, a mod designed to make everything ludicrously difficult. It is, as the name indicates, a pack...of quests!

And I liked the Hell Trials mod! Maybe I have a backup cd from my OS rehaul weeks ago. Gods, I hope so.By all means, feel free to delete the AI folder from the QP package if it will help provide confidence that I'm not trying to sneak it onto your install somehow *because I'm just that dastardly*.
Alternatively, just stop fretting and use the damn mod. :)

[ May 26, 2006, 10:52: Message edited by: SimDing0 ]

Alternatively, just stop fretting and use the damn mod.No. I don't care if it's possible to install each component separately.
Quest Pack is not, in fact, a mod designed to make everything ludicrously difficult. It is, as the name indicates, a pack...of quests!Uh huh. I've heard this line before with other mods. I'm not talking about Tactics or Improved Sendai here. If, as you say, it is a mod of quests, why the need the change the enemies AI and placement (in certain dungeons)? :skeptic:

My ability for playing BG (and its sister games) is related to the difficulty provided by the game itself (Normal, Core, Insane). When I want a harder game, I use different PCs/NPCs or change the difficulty setting.

No. I don't care if it's possible to install each component separately. Irrational.

Uh huh. I've heard this line before with other mods. I'm not talking about Tactics or Improved Sendai here. If, as you say, it is a mod of quests, why the need the change the enemies AI and placement (in certain dungeons)?The FAQ discusses this.

My ability for playing BG (and its sister games) is related to the difficulty provided by the game itself (Normal, Core, Insane). When I want a harder game, I use different PCs/NPCs or change the difficulty setting.And this.

What was the point of your last post, Sim? If you don't care to explain/talk about your mod, then just say so. Because I feel it unnecessary to d/l Quest pack for one select section does not mean I am irrational.

And how would you know how difficult/easy I like my game? I did not see this mentioned in the faq.

I'm so sorry that I am too staid in my gaming ways to want to have my hard-rolled PCs consistantly die (thusly a consistant reloading of games) due to others AI alterations (be they 'minor' or 'major'). It is not even one modder's mod that annoys me. I have tried several mods in similar veins (Greyclan from BWL, UB from PPG, Solafein from Weimer to name a few) and find I don't like people mucking with the AI. Period.

/rant

Irrational. What you talkin' 'bout, Spock? :shake: People can be irrational; get over it.

@kuemper:
My offer still stands. :)

Because I feel it unnecessary to d/l Quest pack for one select section does not mean I am irrational.No, you are irrational because:
1) You want a component of Quest Pack without downloading Quest Pack.
2) You seem to think packaging said component alongside AI changes somehow affects it. Perhaps you should avoid downloading any mod which shares a site with any AI changes. After all, YOU NEVER KNOW!

While we're on the subject, I'd like to point out that Sim's improved AI is really balanced. He doesn't give enemies abilities they should have had and, in some ways, enemies even get nerfed. Beholders, for example, now can lose eystalks when you attack them. The AI "improvements" merely make enemies seem more credible......not more powerful (unless you up the difficulty setting).

SimDing0 is also very thorough with his readmes. If the readme says that component x does x.....that means that component x does x. It does not do y, because if it actually did y in addition to x, Sim would have documented it. You won't get tougher AI if you don't install it.

1) You want a component of Quest Pack without downloading Quest Pack. Wrong. She wants the RHT mod. The fact that it is no longer available on its own, when it used to be, does not make that irrational; it did exist separately, and there are undoubtedly many who have a copy of it like that. I want more 2e cRPGs; that's not likely to happen. She wants the RHT mod by itself; that is likely to happen, if she takes me up on my offer, or finds it on a backup CD.
2) You seem to think packaging said component alongside AI changes somehow affects it. Perhaps you should avoid downloading any mod which shares a site with any AI changes. After all, YOU NEVER KNOW! That's not irrational either. Untrusting, perhaps, but I really can't blame her for that, given her past experience. It's quite rational to expect the same treatment from other mods that you've been consistently given by ones you have tried. Your...reputation as voiced by Drew notwithstanding, I can't blame her for not trusting that your mod won't screw with the original content of the RHT mod. (Don't get me wrong, though. I doubt that it would.)

The only irrationality here is adopting a defensive attitude instead of just politely correcting misconceptions. And then expecting her to trust your assertions despite calling her irrational and telling her to "just...use the damn mod". :rolleyes:

Sim tends to get annoyed when people don't believe him on a subject about which he'd have absolutely no reason to lie. In truth, the QP version of the Hell trial mod is a better one to use. It has been bugfixed and the code has been improved so there will likely be less compatibility issues with other mods. Any trepidation regarding QP, or any mod from PPG or G3 for that matter, doing something other than what is documented is thoroughly misplaced.

She wants the RHT mod.The latest version of which is in Quest Pack. She wants an older version for an obscure reason. I'm simply trying to allay the mistrust she seems to harbour of my documentation for whatever reason. (It frustrates me, in fact, that I have to bear the consequences of other modders' inaccuracy--this is why, for example, Game-be-Gone irritates me.)

In any case, I believe Drew is doing a more polite job of representing me than I ever could. (Thank you.)

I should note, however, since you touch on it, that aside from bugfixes, I do make some changes to RHT based on discussions with the original author (specifically, the neutral path to the selfish test is no longer simply the good path without consequences: it is now more sensibly balanced from a roleplaying perspective--although you might well believe that means I'm only pretending its balanced and really I've ****ed up the mod completely). If these are what bother Kuemper then I believe that's a more legitimate concern, and I apologise for misinterpreting. However, being worried that I've included a ton of arbitrary crap as some sort of trojan really is downright offensive.

Incidentally, Kuemper, you mention UB as having influenced your opinion somehow. I'm curious. While it includes a restoration of the end battle (by myself, ironically), I'm not aware that it silently packages anything without properly documenting it.

And I really have been typing for a long time.

Why is that all modders out there have this "prima donna" thing about them?

She had a mod, she wants that mod. Nothing more, nothing else.

Some people don't like having to go through a custom install in order to install a simple section. I myself hate having to do that, especially when mods can be provided separatedly, as well as part of a package.

Also, did you know that some people don't have broadband? That means that downloading bigger files, especially for no reason other than a modder's whim, is a pain in the arse.

Moreover, some people simply don't feel confident enough to install things unless they are 120% sure that they won't mess with the way their games work, or the way they are used to play. I think this is reasonable too, wouldn't you say?

The fact that she had a bad experience with some mods is reason enough to mistrust any other mod unless proven otherwise. What's wrong with that? Do you download and install anything that you see advertised on the internet, without question it first, unless you knew the provider well enough? Why should I trust that your mod will be properly documented and that it won't screw my game the way other mods out there may have in the past, especially when you refuse to provide a simple explanation, and instead you get all defensive when confronted?


And for crying out loud, kuemper had only mentioned that the mods she installed so far had modified the enemies' AI, not that they had installed "secret components" in her PC. Relax mate, go for a run, have a smoke, or drink a cup of tea. Then read her post again, and try to understand what she said this time, not what you wanted to understand. :rolleyes:

You should not trust me. I have a huge list of ulterior motives here. The truth is that I am actually Noel Edmunds, and I am attempting to trick everybody into downloading my mods so I can make fun of them in a new TV series.

Seriously, guys. I wouldn't recommend ever installing anything on your computers. You never know what might find its way into your My Documents folder.

^^^
oooh your voluminous bull-throwing is only defeated by your spanking-monkey attack.

Anyone else get the feeling that both SimDing0 & Kuemper really enjoyed the evil god ending? ;)

Bitter and sarcastic post about to begin... please skip if you may be offended.

Moreover, some people simply don't feel confident enough to install things unless they are 120% sure that they won't mess with the way their games work, or the way they are used to play. I think this is reasonable too, wouldn't you say?
I completely, whole-heartedly agree. As such I'm sure you do the same thing I do before I download or install everything: I decompile it to see what code it changes and then debug the entire thing because those dang modders can't be trusted and make notes on every change so that I can properly spend hours testing every change occurs exactly as described. Oh, what... you don't do this? Yeah, neither do I. I typically tend to go "The author just personally told me what it changes... and I was going to use the component anyway in different packaging... nah, I can't be bothered, definately just trying to trick me into adding 1 million HP goblins".

And for crying out loud, kuemper had only mentioned that the mods she installed so far had modified the enemies' AI, not that they had installed "secret components" in her PC. Relax mate, go for a run, have a smoke, or drink a cup of tea. Then read her post again, and try to understand what she said this time, not what you wanted to understand. Where does UB change enemy AI? The others do of course make the game harder... though interestingly, I believe that's what all of Weimer's mods do... weird. I see a trend here. Mods that say "I make the game hard"... do. And mods that say "I make the game ____"... do that.

Why is that all modders out there have this "prima donna" thing about them?

She had a mod, she wants that mod. Nothing more, nothing else.

Some people don't like having to go through a custom install in order to install a simple section. I myself hate having to do that, especially when mods can be provided separatedly, as well as part of a package.

Also, did you know that some people don't have broadband? That means that downloading bigger files, especially for no reason other than a modder's whim, is a pain in the arse.
Last time I checked, a modder has 0 responsibility to do anything with their mod that they don't want to. Revised Hell Trials was given to Sim's mod and he has incorporated it into his mod. If you choose not to use his mod, in its 100% seperately installable components, that is a choice that the user has made. Additionally, modders appear to go to through a lot of trouble making mods compatibile with other mods so that you can use multiple different ones if you choose.

I applaud any modder that has the dedication that Sim has shown; he developed a similar group of changes and fixes to a product that we love and produced them at a high level and relatively bug-free. Sorry but if you don't like having to pick and choose individual components out of a single installer (because as mentioned, it's 1 install with no install order as there is 1 mod).


The fact that she had a bad experience with some mods is reason enough to mistrust any other mod unless proven otherwise. What's wrong with that? Do you download and install anything that you see advertised on the internet, without question it first, unless you knew the provider well enough? Why should I trust that your mod will be properly documented and that it won't screw my game the way other mods out there may have in the past, especially when you refuse to provide a simple explanation, and instead you get all defensive when confronted? No. She got screwed over by certain mods and she has now every reason to not trust those mod writers. Not every mod ever. As an analogy, you do not say "Man, those writers wrote a lie in that book, I refuse to trust any writers ever" and then berat them for not doing what you want them to do. He provided a solution to her problem: download my mod, install the Revised Hell Trials (and only that section) and you will get an identical experience as if you had the standalone version... though likely with less bugs because it is still be updated.

Wrong. She wants the RHT mod. The fact that it is no longer available on its own, when it used to be, does not make that irrational; it did exist separately, and there are undoubtedly many who have a copy of it like that. I want more 2e cRPGs; that's not likely to happen. She wants the RHT mod by itself; that is likely to happen, if she takes me up on my offer, or finds it on a backup CD.

That's not irrational either. Untrusting, perhaps, but I really can't blame her for that, given her past experience. It's quite rational to expect the same treatment from other mods that you've been consistently given by ones you have tried. Your...reputation as voiced by Drew notwithstanding, I can't blame her for not trusting that your mod won't screw with the original content of the RHT mod. (Don't get me wrong, though. I doubt that it would.)

The only irrationality here is adopting a defensive attitude instead of just politely correcting misconceptions. And then expecting her to trust your assertions despite calling her irrational and telling her to "just...use the damn mod". I couldn't disagree with you any more Felinoid. Kuemper desired the Hell Trials component, which unfortunately is no longer available as a standalone package (I believe Sim was not the original author but I could be wrong and I apologize if I am). After being offered two very simple scenarios (recieve it from Fel or download the widely available Quest Pack and install the Revised Hell Trials 100% seperately from anything), the response was "Sorry, I don't care what you said your mod does, which of course you understand 100% better than I do and I don't care that you said that each section is seperate, because I don't believe you." This apparent distrust is due to previous bad experiences (which I can definately relate to)... however, she is placing complete faith on the seperate installer of the Revised Hell Trials, with no assurances from the author of that mod, as to what it changes. That is irrational.

And beyond that, I wish to thank you Kuemper for isolating a great modder on a site where many people enjoy mods. Please, by all means, keep asking for advice and ignoring it because of your mistrust. Maybe you'll hear me because I'm not a modder... or am I part of the great conspiracy to make your game impossibly hard by adding a thousand 1-million-HP goblins?

[ May 27, 2006, 02:41: Message edited by: UCLAEnigma ]

Would the 1,000 million hp goblins all be in the same place or scattered throughout Faerun?

I think there's a problem in that over the past year or so a lot more people have begun modding, and have been dishonest or just lazy when documenting their changes. This then results in situations like those described above, where players stop trusting decent modders because of a group of people who either don't know really what they are doing, or are bundling undocumented changes with their mods to force people to play the games "their" way.

As a modder it is frustrating to be lumped in with the dishonest, as new players aren't sure which mods are really "trustworthy" or not. The large (and often conflicting) desires and opinions of players don't help the situation either, particularly as it can be tricky to know who is actually worth listening to.

You can trust Sim's mods. I'm not sure how I can add any credibility to my statement, but there you go.

Why is that all modders out there have this "prima donna" thing about them? Unavoidable god complex. "I am the creator of WORLDS!" :shake:
I decompile it to see what code it changes and then debug the entire thing because those dang modders can't be trusted and make notes on every change so that I can properly spend hours testing every change occurs exactly as described. Oh, what... you don't do this? Well, I do. Or at least something very similar. I started with just using it on a "dummy" install on another computer and looking for things it might have changed. But once I got to understand WeiDU a bit better, now I just look through the TP2. Nothing touches my laptop until I'm sure of exactly what it is and what it'll do. My computer, my game, my rules.
If you choose not to use his mod, in its 100% seperately installable components, that is a choice that the user has made. Ah, but the separateness can be questioned. Is it really 100% separate, or did something slip through? (I'm betting it didn't, but still...)
No. She got screwed over by certain mods and she has now every reason to not trust those mod writers. Not every mod ever. As an analogy, you do not say "Man, those writers wrote a lie in that book, I refuse to trust any writers ever" and then berat them for not doing what you want them to do. Exactly. But it's not as extreme as you're making it out to be. Kuemper just doesn't trust mods that include AI changes, like the Quest Pack does. Better, worse, whatever, it still changes the AI that she's played with and enjoyed.
This apparent distrust is due to previous bad experiences (which I can definately relate to)... however, she is placing complete faith on the seperate installer of the Revised Hell Trials, with no assurances from the author of that mod, as to what it changes. That is irrational. Wrong. She is placing faith in a mod that she has used before with no ill effects. What she won't place her faith in is a mod that outright admits that it includes AI changes not to have gotten at least one of those changes mixed in with another component. (Though I have to say there's not much AI to change in the RHT areas. Maybe Sarevok and the Pride Dragon, or the Selfish Demon, but that's about it.)

All in all, I think Andyr summed it up pretty well. There are more than enough reasons not to trust a modder you don't personally know. Instead, it is the unreasonably trusting who are the ones who should be labelled 'irrational'. I don't remember the Latin at the moment, but even in English it makes sense: "Buyer beware."

I really don't know what to say. Enjoy sticking with mods from three years ago? It always pains me to lose players, but it makes it a lot easier when the players are being silly. :)