If you have a Lawful fighter, give him a single level in Monk. You won't regret it.

You get for free:
- Evasion ( which a fighter can't normally get )
- Stunning Attacks
- +2 Fortitude, +2 Reflex, +2 Will

All great additions that help the fighter a great deal.

Even a Paladin can use these!! (But you must start with a monk, then switch to Paladin).
Or any fighter or even non-fighter type!

[ November 04, 2002, 01:38: Message edited by: Quint ]

Sounds great. If you did this though, you would not be able to get more than 1 level of monk?

Would a paladin get the Wisdom bonus to AC as well?

@Khazraj:
You're correct, but one level of monk is enough.

@Belisarius:
Paladin would get the Wisdom bonus to AC, but only if not wearing any armor or carrying a shield (unlnikely).

hmm...my rouge has 1 level of bard & 1 of ranger ...

maybe give her 1 of monk next?

Since Rouge is the perferred class, she won't get any exp penalties ...

hmmmmmm

Yeah but my monk easily has the best armor class of all my characters for most of the game so maybe it would prove useful not to wear armor for a while. ;)

[ November 04, 2002, 23:30: Message edited by: Captain Carnage ]

@Captain Carnage:
A Paladin can wear heavy armor that gives him around +10 to AC. If you want to throw away his armor, then he must have a total DEX plus WIS bonus greater than +10 for it to be worthwhile. It could be difficult for a Paladin to have such a high DEX, since he probably needs it more in STR to do more damage. Plus a Paladin needs a relatively high CHA too (for saving throw bonuses and turn undead), which makes it even less probable he'll have so many spare points to put in DEX.

A Rogue would probably have a high DEX, but perhaps not so much WIS to make up for what a studded leather +2 armor can give him in Armor AC bonus (+4 or +5).

Plus both the Paladin and the Rogue are probably carrying a shield, which complicates matters even further, and makes it unlikely that they will want to give up their armor and shield to benefit from their monk's WIS bonus to AC.

@Mathetais:
Your Rogue gets Evasion and Improved Evasion automatically, so that makes it less interesting for him (but the saving throw bonuses could help if that's what you're looking for).

[ November 05, 2002, 02:28: Message edited by: Quint ]

All these concerns as (a) no AC bonus with armor and (b) no fast movement with armor (not even with robes) eventually convinced me it is better to add a few (4 actually) thief levels instead of one monk level:
The results of 4 rogue levels were greatly enhanced conversational abilities (bluff/ diplomacy/ intimidate), 2d6 sneak attack damage for a fighter using greatswords :shake: , improved reflex saves, evasion and uncanny dodge.

PS: Does a pally get a wis-based AC bonus ??! I always thought this was monk-uunique ... and further: Isn't the pally's saving throw bonus wis-based ??! ... and forth: doesn't a pally's charisma only effect his lay-on hands, conversations and eventually turn undead ??!

The paladin's divine grace feat gives them a saving throw bonus equal to their charisma modifier. The higher charisma you got the higher saving throws you get.(for example you receive +4 to your saving throws with a cha of 18)

Thanks for clarification, I overlooked that and I eventually found it in my PHB. Must have still been in the 2e world of mysteries :shake:

Sounds very nice but isn't the typical/best "tank" a F-4/Barbarian? Doesn't adding a monk level to that mean you get a xp penalty?

There is a difference between the improved evasion of a monk and that of a rogue.

The monk acquires it automatically when level up. The rogue has to chose to spend a feat on it when it becomes available at Lvl 10.

However, it seems to me that you get as a rogue a bonus feat at that level to compensate for that anyway. Can anybody confirm this?

Hi Ragusa. The discussion about monk AC came up because Belisarius suggested that this was one of the monk's advantages. I'm just arguing that, in the context of this thread, the monk AC bonus from WIS should probably not be listed as a bonus from getting your fighter 1 monk level, because he can't really benefit from it. That's why I didn't list it.

But this in no way invalidates the remaining advantages I listed. If you get 1 level of monk, you get the equivalent of *five* feats for free, one of which (Evasion), isn't even available as a feat!
This is with just ONE level, and you don't have to dilute your fighter with several Rogue levels (and lose on attack bonuses).

[ November 05, 2002, 13:53: Message edited by: Quint ]

Mathetais, even if your favored class is rouge, it only works with two classes not three (not that I know anyway, that's what happened to my dwarf).

Sure a monk class has it's goods but look at the sense it makes. A dwarven or halfling fighter/monk makes no sense at all. It may be good, but for the sake of story line it doesn't fit. If you want to go ahead, just my opinion.

[ November 06, 2002, 02:28: Message edited by: Rolsuk Fryulee ]

The evasion feat of the monk/ rogue is pretty pointless when you intend to beef up an armored fighter: Wearing more than leather disables it. I tried out yesterday with an armored evasive fighter and my rogue - the rogue evaded my fireballs while there wasn't even a response for my monked/ rogued armorclad (I tried out both combos) - that much for theory and praxis ;) However, the monks special abilities, saves & bonuses are quite handy.
As for the improved speed - I think it is disabled by wearing armor. And does stunning attack work with weapons or is it usable only unarmed?

Even when you aquire a feat automatically that doesn't mean you really benefit from it :D

Perhaps it would be a nice idea to create a non-armor fighter-monk a lá Chow Yun Fat in "Hidden Tiger-Crouching Dragon" - with maybe 6 or 8 fighter levels and then switch over to monk ... :hmm:

[ November 06, 2002, 08:44: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

Speaking very tongue in cheek here...

Rolsuk, my dwarf monk is crying now because he makes no sense in a story, wah wah wah...

I'm crying too...

Seriously, I see your point of view, but I'm mad, so I like making "odd" characters.

Cheers.

@Ragusa:

I also noticed a problem with Evasion in IWD2.
Either there's a bug, or they're rolling dice - after the reflex roll succeeds - to decide if your rogue/monk has evaded or not.

I noticed that problem some time ago, but didn't try to analyze it until I gave my fighter a monk's level and noticed he evades only infrequently with heavy armor, although he definitely does so, occasionally.
So I sat there experimenting, throwing fireballs at him :D and my Rogue together (the latter has Improved Evasion too). Even with no armor at all, both fighter/monk and Rogue were sometimes getting damage, even though they succeded in their reflex roll. The fighter had a smaller evasion success rate while wearing his usual heavy armor, though.

I even got the following:
XYZ: Reflex roll (...) Success
XYZ: XYZ Evades Fireball.
XYZ: XYZ gets 26 fire damage.
...which is impossible since XYZ evaded the fireball.

So I'd say there seems to be a bug.

[ November 06, 2002, 13:56: Message edited by: Quint ]

sounds like it, otherwise I would guess it has to do with te AC penalty of heavier armor ... anyway, practically it's of little use :(

But if you have all your heroes be 1 level monk no one'll be there to pick up the rewards from the quests as monks usually are rejecting them :D

Very true. :) You don't want to miss on all the goodies!

Not a single one of them :p :D :cool: