Anyone happen to know exactly what Heart of Fury does to the monster stats?

On normal, the enemies (at least the humanoids..) seem to be calculated the same way your characters are, with all benefits from feats, equipment, attributes, etc being included in determining their effectiveness. There are only a few ways I've found the game 'bending the rules' for the enemy (some of which are appearantly bugs..) and usually it's not even in the enemy's favor.

On Heart of Fury, though, there doesn't seem to be any correlation to the monsters base-stats.. Where a Slayer Knight in "Normal" would have 126 hit points + (4 (Constitution Bonus) * 19 (Level)) = 202, the same Slayer Knight in Heart of Fury will have 845 hit points.. Which isn't evenly divisible using that formula layout, even if you change most of the values.

For the Slayer Knights in particular, I've noticed only a few recognizable patterns that seem to make sense, but they don't even necessarily apply to other monsters..

(You can skip this part if you want. It's only here for brainstorming information.)

1) All saves are increased by +15. However, Slayer Knights are technically 'Paladins of Helm', and, like paladins, they also recieve their charisma modifier to their saving throws. They (most of them, at least) naturally have a +2 charisma modifier, and unless the game doesn't impose a cap of 40 on monster attributes, this would still leave us in excess of +2.. So this +15 bonus isn't likely from Charisma... and if Charisma isn't being raised to 40, it wouldn't make much sense for all their other attributes to be raised to 40.. If all attributes *were* raised to 40, that would give us +30 to all saves.. Which isn't happening. (Note, my tests have pointedly excluded the fighter classed slayer knights for the sake of complexity. I am aware that they exist.)

2) Armor class doesn't change. This suggests that they don't get a bonus to their 'base ac'. However, if the game did try to give the Slayer Knights an AC boost via Dexterity, it wouldn't work, as their equipped armor is +7 Armor, with a Max Dex Bonus of 0. (Not None. +0.)

3) Challenge Rating is doubled.. Or increased by 10. One or the other, but the result is the same.

4) Attacks per round remain the same. This is.. interesting, because unlike players, NPCs attacks per round are calculated seporately from their base attack bonus.. Which is seemingly a value of it's own. Instead, the enemy is given a number of attacks per round based on a comparison to what it's base attack bonus *should* be after levels are counted, and then it's first attack is set to it's seporate 'base' attack bonus variable, and each successive attack recieves the appropriate -5.. and on that note.

5) The Slayer Knights I was testing all recieved a straight +20 to their attack bonus from 32/27/22/17 & 31/26/21/16, to 52/47/42/37 & 51/46/41/36.

6) Enemy damage is approximately 300%. I'm not sure if this is *2 from "Insane", and an additional *1.5 for "Heart of Fury", or if that is just for show.. I could probably try tampering with the .ini to see if I could cheat and turn off "Insane" while playing on Heart of Fury. Haven't tried that yet.. There is definitely some kind of *2 multiplication going on behind the dice rolls, though, as every single swing I observed from these knights was divisible by 2. 38, 40, 42, 44, 46, 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 62.. Crits for 76, 88, 90, 92, 94, 96, 98, 100, 104, 108, 112, 124, etc.
Normally their damage is 12-22 and 14-24 with some kind of -1 penalty reducing the damage range to 11-23 between them.. HoF their damage was 38-56 and 42-62.

7) The Greatsword of the Soulless +5 that they wield (00CWSKX1) is only considered a +2 weapon when calculating attack rolls. This is not the same one they drop apon death. (00SWDT93). Other weapons work appropriately.

8) Enemies, for whatever reason, recieve a mysterious 9 attack bonus when swinging at me, and things associated with me.

Example: Charmed enemy with 14 Base Attack Bonus. -5 Strength, Normal weapon, no proficiency attacks a slayer knight: (14, -5, -4 = 5.)
Slayer Knight with 15 Base Attack Bonus. +5 Strength, +2 Magic Weapon, +1 Weapon Focus attacks my charmed minion: (15, +5, +2, +1 = 23)
Charm breaks, charmed minion attacks me with a an attack bonus of 14. Slayer Knight attacks me with a bonus of 32.


What is really weirding me out and inspiring me to throw my hands up, though, is that I made a copy of 67SkXvm.cre and renamed it 63KntXvm.cre, changed their primary color to blue and green so I could tell them apart, stuck it in my over-ride folder to run some tests.. 63KntXvm, in spite of being the exact same .cre file as 67SkXvm, is receving a -1 attack penalty, and a -6 damage penalty difference from 67SkXvm.. Earlier, I was experiencing identical monsters having an excess of 200 hit points more\less than the one standing right next to them.. Even though they both were the same level, with the same challenge rating, granting the same experience apon death, dropping the same treasure, etc, etc.. It's as if the game decided people wearing green shirts get a -6 on damage rolls. =P

So, does anyone have *any* idea what the game is doing to the .cre files to determine their stats? Is there any blueprint in the .2da files, or is it hard-coded in the .exe? Are the bonuses uniform in any-way between monsters in different chapters? Is it some formula based on challenge rating, or level, or what?

*suddenly misses TeamBG..*

Well unless Jukka decides to drop by again, I dont think you really are going to get any answers. Try out the JUPP. You might find a few pointers.

The formula for HP I remember was HP(HoF) = HP(Normal) * 3 + 80.
202*3+80 = 686 != 845. :hmm: If you increase the multiple to 4 and treat the HP from Con bonus normally, we might get your answer.

Everyone gets a flat +26 to BAB iirc.
Some similar number for saves I presume.
The 2 multiplyer you saw comes from insane mode. It multiplies all enemy rolls by two.

The rest. Well, I haven't ever thought about it and have no ideas about.

I do know that the goblins have 150-155 hp. That was enough to tell me it was going to be tough, and I didn't bother with any more counting. Your figures seem reasonable.

The HP formula does help some. I had already figured there was a *3 multiplier, and I had started applying variations to the consitution bonus, but I always came up short.. That the enemies recieve a flat +80, -- or any flat bonuses at all independant of other modifier, might save me some time cross referencing between multiple enemies.

I've found that the Slayer Knights do get a +6 to their Dexterity attribute, which results in a +6 modifier (up from +3) - This, however, does not show up on their armor class because, as suspected, their Armor doesn't allow a Dex bonus.

This was throwing off my estimates because, when lowering their attributes all down to 1, and playing on HoF to see the stat difference, their Dexterity (and probably other stats) was being pushed up by 6.

If their other attributes are also being increased by 6, that would give them a +7 constitution modifier instead of a +4. Which would change it to:

(126 * 3) + ((7 * 19) * 3) + 80 = 857.
*really* close.

This would also contribute to their save bonus twice (once for charisma, and once for the govorning attribute), and to their base attack bonus, to some degree.


The goblins are strange.. I don't know why the developers added different creature files for the goblins on the docks, vs the goblins in the houses on the docks, for example.. but they did.. The goblins outside in front of the warehouse have 4 hps. I'm not sure if this 4 hps deviates from their base hit points before any constitution penalties or how much that would even matter at level 1.. But even using the formula above I don't see any way to arrive at 150+.. from 4 *3, they'd need to have either a constitution modifier of +138(!!), or have their level increased..

I don't *think* the monsters get their levels increased, since it *seems* that their levels alone determine their attacks per round, and I haven't noticed any monsters getting additional attacks per round.. I'd have to look into the goblins more... I was pointedly avoiding them since I'd have to repeatedly create a party and talk to Hedron at the beginning of every test (Unless I replaced *him* into a goblin.... hmm...)

It's possible the goblins I was testing in HoF are different .cre files than the one I was testing in normal, due to the fact that the party is higher level when they enter the docks on HoF, than they are when they enter the docks at level 1, on normal..


The JUPP was the was the first place I looked when I started this, but I didn't find the actual formulas. I imagine that Jukka does.. or did.. have the answers, though.. *sigh*..

Even if I could find it, I doubt my feeble rank 1 Hide-on-internet. move anonymously, and disarm firewall skills are even close sufficient to sneak into the his temple and excavate the ancient Tablet of Jukka without angering his lich.. I might be able to defeat it in melee, but the guardians he summons can cast imprisonment multiple times\day, so I'd probably be better served to go practice my necromancy and\or divination, if there is even any chance.

Regardless, thank you both for your replies.. I'll continue digging around and see what I can find.