Hey all, need some advice on my IWD2 party. I bought this game back when it was released in Sept. '02 and pretty much haven't played it. I think the most I've done was create a party and did a couple of the FedEx quests in Targos lol. So, recently I've gotten the urge to play this game and maybe this time I'll get a little farther.

I have an idea of what I want in my party but I'm unsure of race, levels to mc, and the overall size of the party. I like the idea of being able to create 6 party members, I just don't like the idea of managing 6 party members. Am I hurting myself by going with 4 or maybe 5 members? Let me break down what I have so far:

Fighter(4)/Barbarian(X), Human or Half-Orc
Fighter(4)/Cleric(X), Dwarf
Paladin(1)/Sorcerer(X), Human
Rogue(?)/Wizard(X), Drow

and if I did increase to 5 members, my 5th member would be:

Cleric or Druid(X), Moon Elf

Probably my biggest concern is with the Rogue. I don't really care for back stab but I definitely want a character that can scout ahead, disable traps, and open locks. So, how many levels of Rogue would be considered enough to do all that and be successful throughout the whole game? If it came down to where more than 4, 5 Rogue levels is essential then I'll make the Drow Wizard/Rogue a Drow Rogue(X)/Fighter(4) and probably go to 5 party members and take the Moon Elf Cleric or Druid.

I didn't list stats because I'll worry about that when I have my Class/Race set for my party members. Any help, advice you can give is greatly appreciated. :)

Since you are making a Drow Rouge/Wizard I'm guessing he has 20Dex and 20Int at make. You can start him off as rouge and then turn over to wizard if you so wish. With all the skill-points you get you needn't worry about being too far behind in the rouge skills.
Give him 2 levels of rouge so he gets the evasion ability.

As for your sorcerer, aasimar seems to be a better race. Seeing that the Paladin get immunities to fear and disease L2 and L3, consider taking those levels.

Your party seems pretty good to me. Taking along four characters instead of six will make the game a little bit harder in the beginning, but because you level up faster, you will be getting more powerful than a six character party.

I think a fighter/barbarian is probably the best pure tank you can make. You don't need any skill points, and you don't need that many feats either, so I wouldn't take a human. Half-orc is good because of the strength, but you should also consider a dwarf for their higher constitution (hitpoints) and some other bonuses.
I don't think a cleric benefits a lot from taking four levels as a fighter. Clerics are already pretty decent fighters and I think that it's better to be able to cast higher level spells faster than to get Weapon Specialisation. So I would level the cleric up to a point where he can cast a certain level of spells (six for heal for instance) and then take the fighter levels. Taking the fighter levels eventually seems good to me, because level 9 cleric spells aren't all that great anyway.
The paladin/sorcerer seems good. You could also take two levels of paladin for Aura of Courage which makes you and partymembers near you invulnerable to fear effects. The only problem that this character has is that you have to take the paladin levels after eachother. If you take some levels as a paladin and then take a level of sorcerer you won't be able to take any more levels of paladin. However, this is only a problem if you don't know yet how much pally levels you want.
I would probably take one or two levels of rogue. One is for the thieving skills and skillpoints and two could be for Evasion. Because your intelligence is high, you should be able to increase a lot of skills at level up and so you don't need any more rogue levels. If you don't have enough skillpoints, specialize in search and disable trap. Scouting can be done with the wizard spell 'Invisibility' and 'Knock' will open locks for you. Oh, and you should choose a Specialist class for the wizard. This will give you more castings per level. Don't worry about the fact that you can't cast some spells. Just specialize in something that has a bad opposite school and the sorcerer can cover the few spells of that school that are useful.

If you decide to take that fifth character, I would recommend the druid over the cleric, because I think it's nice to have some variety.

First, thanks for the reply. :)

Yes, if I were going with the Drow Rogue/Wizard his DEX and INT would be 20. So, give him 2 levels of Rogue and then jump to Wizard? Will my Rogue skills be adequate enough late in the game with just those two levels? I don't want to run into a situation late in the game where I can't open something....then again, I guess I could just use a Knock spell but my concerns other than that would be stealth, pick pocket and finding traps, if those are things to be concerned with.

I was thinking Aasimar as well for my Sorcerer. The bonus to CHA made it an obvious choice but I was concerned with the ECL and already being one level behind the Wizard as far as learning new spells. Thanks for the tip on the Paladin levels...I had only planned on taking 1 but it makes sense to go at least 2 or 3.

As far as my party size, is it just preference or was the game meant to be played with 6 characters? From reading the posts I know its quite possible to solo this game but I also understand by going with fewer characters, you advance quicker thus having situations where you might kill something and get no XP at all. I also didn't want to run into situations where my party was too strong, making the game too easy & boring.

You will find a few trapped chests which refuse to open or even identify . But its almost impossible affect them without magic anyways, so dont fret. Find traps, knock and potions of master thievery will find their use.
The only problem I really had was with pick-pocketing. Then again the returns are so bad that it almost doesn't matter.

L27 and L28 for sorcerer are almost the same so its either pally L1 or L3. Ofcourse thats only gonna happen in HoF, but still ...
ECL stops being a disadvantage by the time you get to Kuldahar anyways, so dont worry about it.

As far as number of charecters is concerned, the fewer charecters you have to control the more you can be involved with them.
I remember my first pass through the game when I had 6 charecters. It got to a point where I had everyone including the arcane casters dealing with the myconoids in the Underdark with just Quaterstaffs. Boring!
Having fewer chars means that you spend more time on each individual and can really find out their capabilities and limitations. Ofcourse the game gets harder to play. So 4 seems to be an ideal party with a 5th if added being a Bard or someone whom you just let sing away.

And dont worry about being too strong. You wont ;)

Menion, I just finished posting my reply to Shrikanth when I saw your post. Thanks for replying. :)

My plan is to have 2 characters up front who can melee and 2-3 in the back who are casters/ranged characters. I thought by giving my Dwarf Cleric a few fighter levels he could be a solid tank as well as healer but I now realize this may not give me enough protection. That's why I've considered taking a 5th character and making her a full Cleric/Druid. She can be in the back healing and using a bow. I also thought if I did take both the Dwarf and Moon Elf I could have the Dwarf be the so called 'buffer' of the group and the Moon Elf be the primary healer. This was just a thought tho.

As for my Drow Rogue/Wizard, that makes two of you that have said 2 levels of Rogue is enough and that's enough for me. :) Also, which Specialist School should I choose? Do you recommend one?

For my Sorcerer/Paladin should I take my first level as a Sorcerer then MC to Paladin for the next 2 levels and finally jump back to Sorcerer or should I just take the first 2 levels as Paladin then MC to Sorcerer?

Thanks for all your help! :)

I don't think that ECL is a disadvantage at all. ECL characters have great bonuses and their lower character level means your party levels up faster anyway (Drows and Deep Gnomes are awesome). I also agree that having less than 6 party members is more fun because it's too hard to manage 6 characters. Plus, I would recommend no specialist school for your wizard until next time you play when you'll have a better idea of what sort of spells you find useful.

A word about Paladins:
http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/iwd2/character/classes/warriors/paladin/

Below are the three divine orders a paladin chooses from when taking a level. A Paladin who multiclasses to a class other than paladin or their order's favored class will never be allowed to advance in that paladin class again.

Paladin of Ilmater
Paladins of Ilmater venerate the god of suffering. They willingly take the most horrible wounds in any battle just to prevent the suffering of others. They are typically knows for their humility. Special Order Ability: Can multiclass to Painbearer of Ilmater (cleric) without loosing the ability to advance in the paladin class.

Paladin of Helm
Paladins of Helm follow the teachings of the god of guardians. They are dedicated to defending the weak and protecting important places against assault. Special Order Ability: Can multiclass to fighter without losing the ability to advance in the paladin class.

Paladin of Mystra
Paladins of Mystra insure that the powers of the goddess of magic are not used for evil. They seek out evil spellcasters all over Faerun for protection of civilization and to protect benign wizards from the repercussions of irresponsible magic use. Special Order Ability: Can multiclass to wizard without losing the ability to advance in the paladin class.With a party of 4, you can advance rather quickly in Targos. I would start out as a Paladin for 2 levels then switch over to Sorcerer. 2 levels of Rogue will be enough. I have a Rogue 2/Wiz X in my party and with an INT of 14 I had like 34 skill points to distribute because I started him out as a Rogue. That's one of the good things about Targos is that you can start off as a pure melee party and then after advancing a few times start picking up your mage classes, but you don't want to wait too long. I think with a 4 member party by the time you are done clearing out Targos they will be around level 6 (w/ the exception of your ECL pentalites). You can check my party here: http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/14/2090.html

Weapon Specialisation is overrated. You can live without it and, certainly, there are better uses for 4 levels of experience for a spellcasting character. However, if you're aiming for very high levels (solo/HoF), it will pay off. Not on lower levels, though.

Especially if you're a cleric, you might be better off buffed to the max with spells cast with a good casting level than whatever fighter levels could give you. Unless you're actually planning a battlepriest character and you know what you're doing.

The plus side, however, is that a cleric with 4 fighter levels and specialisation in the weapon he's using doesn't have to cast anything to make a tank. Pure class clerics don't always make it. With two arcane casters in this relatively small party, you can live with your cleric slightly capped.

Drows are typically overrated. They make great and potent characters, but only if you build them right. If you want another extremely powerful spellcaster, don't go for it. But if you want to have a rogue but don't feel like wasting a character slot on a fulltimer (bad bargain in IWD2), that character is a great choice. Evasion, spell resistance and high reflex save will help keep standing where other casters would fall. Note, however, that you'll be 4 levels behind a non-ECL pure class wizard. Decide between focusing on stealth and guile and offsetting your shortcomings with Spell Focuses. I would definitely take Greater Penetration - to have both high spell resistance and potential to break through the enemy's resistance. Greater Spell Focus: Evocation together with Spirit of Flame (and/or other elemental feat(s)) will help you do way more damage than you should :evil:

As for your paladin/sorcerer, you might consider taking a second level in paladin class for Aura of Courage - immunity for you, +2 to saves vs fear for allies close to you. Don't take a human. Take an aasimar. That's 4 stat points for free in exchange for that extra human feat and +1 skill point per level. In addition, you can start with CHA 20. Imagine your saves... And you need CHA for DC, talking skills and bonus spells, anyway.

Weapon Specialisation is definitely not the ultimate feat as +2 damage is not all that much compared to a powerful spell but it's still pretty useful. Once again - depends on your playing style as well.

Weapon specialisation may not be an Ultimate but 4 Fighter levels and +2 to damage can make a melee char out of anyone.
My straight Divine caster was really bad at the frontlines. I had to give her a sling later on as she was doing so little damage.

The spell resistance makes up for a lot Chev. Add to that the bonuses to Dex and Int along with Favoured Class: Wizard make him the ultimate for me. And the ECL cant even be felt by the time we get to Kuldahar.

You might want to consider a tiefling for your rogue/wizard--you still get +2 Dex/+2 Int, rogue as a preferred class, and you only have a 1 level ECL.

The ECL doesn't matter when you're throwing fireballs around. It starts to matter when you have to get another 10+K XP to be able to cast Mordenkainen's Sword, let alone 8-9th level spells.

Bonus to INT is only an advantage in its own right when you start at INT 20. Otherwise it's just 2 stat points you can spend however you wish.

Weapon Specialisation makes difference when you're low level, don't have magic cast on you, your weapon is crappy etc. But later on, when you hit for 15-20 points, 2 point don't matter much. When you have access to 2nd level spells, Bull's Strength gives you that. And not only to damage but also to hit. Then comes Holy Power - +4 to damage. Don't forget all kinds of Bless, Prayer and the like. When higher levels come, you get more boosts and more potent ones. Two points of damage from Weapon Specialisation plus some improvement to your BAB from fighter levels pale before those. Also, when you're 4 cleric levels ahead, you're 2 spell levels ahead. Means you can summon bigass elementals much earlier. What does +2 damage matter when you can get an elemental pound the victim for you?

When you get the right spells, your cleric will own in melee. I had a Morninglord of Lathander who didn't have a single combat feat, not even Weapon Focus in mace. And he frontlined. He had more kills than that finessed ranger with two short swords and a bow.

Thanks you all for your input! Very much appreciated. :)

When I get home from work tonight I'll be assembling my party and I'll let you all know how it turns out. Thanks again.

Have a good time and don't worry, you'll probably finish the game anyway. The only way to blow it is to go the finesse route - but even that can be done (I've played a paladin/fighter/ranger/monk with 8 STR and 8 CON at start).

Ok, I've narrowed it down to two parties. One is a party of 4, the other being a party of 5. I'll break them down for you and see what you all think:

Human or Half-Orc
Fighter(4)/Barbarian(X)
STR-20, DEX-18, CON-18, INT-3, WIS-12, CHA-1

Human Aasmair
Paladin(2)/Sorcerer(X)
Skills: Alchemy, Concentration, Diplomacy, Spellcraft
STR-8, DEX-12, CON-14, INT-16, WIS-10, CHA-20

Shield Dwarf
Battleguard of Tempus(X)
Skills: Concentration
STR-18, DEX-18, CON-20, INT-3, WIS-18, CHA-2

Drow
Rogue(2)/Wizard(X)
Skills: Concentration, Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge Arcana, Move Silently, Open Lock, Pick Pocket, Search, Spellcraft.
STR-10, DEX-20, CON-14, INT-20, WIS-12, CHA-5

OR

Human or Half-Orc
Fighter(4)/Barbarian(X)
STR-20, DEX-18, CON-18, INT-3, WIS-12, CHA-1

Human Aasmair
Paladin(2)/Sorcerer(X)
Skills: Alchemy, Concentration, Diplomacy, Spellcraft
STR-8 , DEX-12 , CON-14 , INT-16 , WIS-10 , CHA-20

Shield Dwarf
Fighter(4)/Battleguard of Tempus(X)
Skills: Concentration
STR-18, DEX-16, CON-20, INT-3, WIS-18, CHA-2

Drow
Rogue(2)/Wizard(X)
Skills: Concentration, Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge Arcana, Move Silently, Open Lock, Pick Pocket, Search, Spellcraft.
STR-10, DEX-20, CON-14, INT-20, WIS-12, CHA-5

Wild Elf
Druid(X)
Skills: Concentration
STR-8, DEX-20, CON-16, INT-8, WIS-18, CHA-6

As you can see, with the party of 5 I added another healer(Druid/Cleric) and changed how I made my Shield Dwarf. Instead of putting all his levels into Cleric, I gave him 4 Fighter levels. I guess the question I have to answer is will I be ‘ok’ with one healer in the party or is it worth taking an additional healer and going to 5 members? If any of you have any input on this that would be great! :)

[ August 13, 2004, 00:03: Message edited by: Setzer ]

One healer is usually enough. If you take 2 then you can make one of them more of a tanker (as you seem to have done). You could always go for the Druid to get a bit of variety.

One Healer should be enough. I have only one for my 6 person party (also battleguard) and since i use her magic mostly for healing (and some animate dead)it is enough. The battleguard makes quite a good tank and don't need the fighterlevels. You can eventually take them in HOF.

Ok, if I do go the 5 party route I'll make the Wild Elf a Druid. Variety is good. :)

How do my builds look, as far as attributes?

You should minimize the intelligence for the characters that dont need more than one skillpoint (cleric, tank and druid.) Minimize charisma for everyone but the sorcerer and you should get some extra ability-points for other places. Use either ½orc or Shield Dwarf for your main tank to get 20 Str/con. And DON'T MULTICLASS THE CLERIC until it can cast leves 8 spells. otherwise it looks good

@ Setzer

Your party looks fine for most of normal mode. I would suggest you drop the Druid and go with a party of four. The best thing the Druid offers is Barkskin and, since you are not going for a high AC build, you have little use for that spell. Otherwise, just about anything the Druid can do either your Cleric or your Sorcerer/Wizard can do better. You will also level more quickly with a four person party.

Having said that, if you plan on going into HoF mode, then this party will not do. Looking at the tank at the end of normal, one might think that he is really tough -- having close to 300 HP is a thing of beauty. However, by the time you hit the Shaengarne river that tank in the frontlines will find those 300 hit points disappearing so fast your cleric might not even have time to cast Heal before the tank dies. Yes, HoF is that bad. This party will be forced to rely on a wall of summons in order to survive, and that's just boring.

If you think you might like to go into HoF, I would seriously suggest that you take an in-depth look at the JUPP. Once you understand the concept, the parties are easy to manage and absolutely own the game! In addition to making normal mode fun and easy, it allows you to run in HoF mode without relying on a massive amount of summons. My current party is at the Horde Fortress (not very far, I know) and has not had to summon a single creature. My high AC decoy cannot be hit, even by HoF monsters on anything but a natural 20. Try it, you'll like it.

Then what would be a good aproach for HoF? I mean, having a 72 AC decoy can't be the only way to finish it without having too much trouble. Not having such a decoy means that you will be hit, so what should be done about that other than acquiring a lot of HP?

And BTW: I'd recommend a human paladin/sorcerer over a Aasimar one. You are going to need at least 2 skill points a level (for concentration and spellcraft). The Aasimar has to take 12 Int in order to do that while the human could drop int to 3. That means that you have 9 extra attribute points that you can distribute among the phisical stats so that your sorcerer will die less easy.

Spellcraft is important to Sorcerer's? I thought all it did was help identify spells and increased the chance of Wizard's successfully writing them to their book? My Sorcerer is going to be the talker of the group so I'm going to need enough points each level to raise Bluff, Diplomacy, Concentration, Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft( if it's that important to a Sorcerer). That's why I have his Intelligence set to 16. This will give me 4 points at each level.

Just to clarify something on my Sorcerer/Paladin build, is WIS necessary? If Paladin's get Divine Grace which uses the CHA modifier for Saving throws then I really shouldn't have to worry about what I set WIS to, right?

Also, I'm thinking about adding a level of Ranger to my Fighter(4)/Barbarian(X) character for dual wield purposes. If I do that will I have a 20% XP penalty for all my Barbarian levels?

You could take three levels of ranger to avoid the multiclassing penalty.

A sorcerer/paladin should have high enough will saves, so you don't need wisdom for that. It's also used for the paladin's spellcasting, but if you are only level two that doesn't matter.

3 levels of Ranger w/ a Fighter 4/Barbarian X is a waste. You are better off creating a human Fighter 4/Barbarian X, then you can get two-weapon fighting and amberdexterity with the extra feats for being a human. Human Fighter level 1 will get you three feats, use two for two weapon fighting and amberdexterity and then put the other one in whatever else.

I've read that you need ten levels of SpellCraft to get the element feats for spell casters. Since you have three mages, split some of the stuff out. Not all three mages need to have Knowledge (Arcana) skill. I'm not really sure how many levels of Concentration is enough to keep from failing a casted spell. You should always try to build your parties so that your members compliment each other. Take weapons for example, there are three main damage types when it comes to weapons: slashing, piercing and bludgeoning. You should have one person using one of the these types of weapons as a main and a different type as a backup. I remember from when I first started playing IWD2 the number of times I was getting upset because I couldn't find a weapon to hit some creature. You've got to have some diversity in your characters in order to keep from struggling with every battle.

Yeah, spellcraft is needed for the elemental feats. Spirit of Flame is especially useful for your bombardier and his fire-based arsenal.

Well, I think I have a party of 4 that compliment each other quite well. :)

Slashing - Human, Fighter/Barbarian(Long sword)
Bludgeoning - Dwarf, Battleguard of Tempus(Axe)
Piercing - Drow, Rogue/Wizard(Long Bow) and Human Aasimar, Sorcerer/Paladin(Crossbow)

As for skills, I'll have my Sorcerer do Alchemy, the Wizard do Knowledge: Arcana and keep Concentration & Spellcraft raised for both.

@ Menion Leah

The only way to do HoF that I have heard of other than the Ac 72 decoy/tank is to have a wall of summons in front of you. No character will have the HP to survive more than a few rounds in HoF, hardly even that if they get mobbed.

When I was in the smuggler's caves in Targos, one of those worthless Targos goblins got around my decoy and hit my tank. Even though I had the rest of the party hitting the goblin with every missile weapon I had, it still took off about a quarter of my HP before it died. At the Horde Fortress exterior (where the drums and bridges are), one of those hardened Ice Trolls went the long way around and came up behind my party. I sent in my secondary tank who had about 150 HP and an AC of 44 and a mirror image up. He was just about dead within five seconds. Thankfully, my Sorcerer had managed to pump the Troll with so many Flame Arrows that it died before it could finish me off. HoF is nasty, and I have'nt even gotten to the tough monsters yet.

I am currently playing with a five person party, but I try to 'solo' as much as I can with my paladin(10)/sorcerer(13) because I think he's so cool. The sorcerer part is mainly for buffs such as both fireshields, ironskins, trollish fortitude and the most important: mirror image. He usually does pretty well, but sometimes I have to let my cleric or druid cast a heal spell on him. It's just a matter of keeping that Mirror Images up.

Another one of my tactics is to make my pure sorcerer invisible and then walk in on a group of enemies and cast Wail of the Banshee. It's still working now that I am only in chapter 1.

Setzer, sounds like you got everything covered. Let us know how it turns out. I'm hoping to be able to start playing my party this weekend.

@Menion Leah

There IS yet another way of surviving HOF, if you don't want to use a high-AC decoy or summons. In short - killing and/or disabling your enemies before they can attack you in numbers. (You could also cheese your way out by using Improved Invisibility, but that'd be totally boring.)

I used this approach with the original UPP party (I only replaced the pure tank with a second cleric since I wanted more buffing power) and I think I got pretty good at it. Here's the recipe of destruction that works on 95% of the encounters in game. I'm assuming there's two clerics and four mages in the party.

1) Make sure all of your characters are buffed to the gills with both offensive and defensive buffs. Mirror Image (or Invisibility), Stoneskin, Mass Haste, Emotion: Hope and Holy Power would probably make a 'minimum required' list.

2) When you see enemies approaching, start with your clerics casting Prayer and Recitation. Help them out with mages casting Malison and Emotion: Despair. Wait a couple of seconds with the remaining two mages and have them cast Slow and Chaos so that these spells get the saving throw benefits from other spells.

3) Follow up with a double shot of Symbol: Hopelessness with your clerics. Have your mages cast Wail of the Banshee. If enemies are immune to the Wail, run away with all but one character and pepper the area with area effect spells, the decoy recasting Mirror Image as needed.

4) Chop the enemies that are still standing. Highly unlikely, may I say. But if you got extremely unlucky with your enemies making their saves, repeat step 3.

5) Resurrect your dead party members - it's not unusual that the enemies manage to bring down one or two of your party members before you're done casting the Wails, no matter how careful you play. If they kill both of your priests, reload and redo the battle.

Kind of repetitive and boring, but works wonders. Needs split-second timing in phasing the spell casting and positioning the characters for best results.