I've skimmed over a few "powergamer" guides, and one thing I have noticed is that it seems like your classic heavily armored type warrior is absent in all of these builds. What's going on here? Does this type of character suck in IWD2?

Are spellsword types better?

Klorox, magic is alot more powerful in this game, as less characters have immunities plus there aren't that many mages compared to other games such as BG.

Thus, many people like to have their main fighter backed up with some Arcane levels. This helps them greatly in IWD II, gaining some protective spells and such.

But you'll always find someone with a Tank. My Fighter (4) / Paladin (x) reflects this. Pure Melee.

The "Powergaming Guides" are looking forward to the Heart of Fury mode, where armor class and pure melee tends to take a back seat to raw damage casting and such. Partial melee builds reflect the occassional need to kill something or guard a pure caster if and when monsters get close enough.

[ November 29, 2005, 21:39: Message edited by: Beren ]

Melee-oriented PCs suck hard in HoF, while casters of all kinds simply rule and dominate the game!

Example:My drow dual-wielding CG ranger takes on a Yuanti Elite in HoF. By the time he is able to kill ONE, my cleric/mage had to heal him TWICE completely by Heal Spell. Not a very efficient way to fight hordes of them eh?

Then my cleric/mage enters a room full of nasty guys in Severed Hand in HoF, those fighters/priests/mages and all kinds of freaks. He enters fully buffed of course, and sends a small army of Apocalyptic Boneguards for cannon fodder:a Malison, and then Recitation lowers enemies saves whilst they fight Apocalyptic Boneguards. Then a quick symbol of hopelesness leaves MOST of them paralyzed. (a mage or two can make will save but enemy mages are laughable at best in IWD2, :p ) Then C/M enters room, casts a WoB and %90 of enemies die. Quick. Rest can be killed via FoDs or Disintegrates, or if they are already paralyzed they can be ripped apart by Apocalyptic Boneguards or even my C/M can draw his Moonblade of Selune (yay!) and punish some! I do just what I feel like as they are at my mercy!

My drow ranger absolutely stands NO chance at all to fight those enemies, they will tear him apart so quick it is not funny!

So you do the math. If there is anyone who says that melee tanks are better in Hof than spell casters, I will gladly listen to their ideas.

There are a couple of tank builds that work in HOF. All involve a character with combinations of monk, thief, deep gnome, and/or enough arcane levels for Tensers + party builds with druids and bards. The key is to keep a character from getting hit. It's definitely not as efficient as summons + blasting, but it does work.

But when you aren't playing HoF, tanks still rule for the most part. Put one high AC sheild up front to attract all the damage, follow him up with a two-handed weapon weilding beserker and reach for the :coffee:

Its only around the Underdark that spellcasters start coming into their own. Still a melee basher will continue to have the most kills throughout the game.

The fact is that in HoF mode, most summons are better tanks than your characters can ever dream to be. A Boneguard can take a full group of badies hitting on him for some fights when my barbarian, even with his 400+ HP and his 35 AC can't tank most monsters one-on-one without healing/backup. Plus monsters have ridiculous physical resistances in HoF when a Wail of the Banshee can take down a full group in no time.

This game is not meant for the full plate, shield, long sword fighter tank character. Even with the best heavy armor in the game and a great two handed weapon, you just can't stand toe to toe with quite a few monsters in the game, normal of HOF. But you gotta have em with your spell blasters through the first half until the spellers come into their own. You would have a tough time starting with 4 to 6 arcane casters and no meat shields to cover them early. So no, they do suck late, but through the first ten levels or so you need them.

This reminds me why I don't play HoF! Kinda like that old game Battlespire, where you could technically create any kind of character you wanted -- fighter, mage, rogue, or diplomat -- but only a fighter-mage could survive to the end, so you could only craft a successful character in one way. Same here: given the enormous leeway that IWD2 gives in Normal mode to reward different tactics and party mixes, I can't understand the appeal of the constrained HoF mode.

In normal mode a heavy melee tank is essential for some encounters and is a main tactic for some battles (e.g. iron golems).

I agree that is HoF where the tanks become less useful, hence I agree with Grey Magistrate's comments.

IWD2 in normal mode is actually an amazingly balanced game with options to suit all sorts of character builds. I remember the time I tried to play a no-arcane-magic-party. The Sherincal fight was impossible until I finally discovered that that guy with the pet spider can cast buffs like Fire Shield Blue on you. The only reason I can think of why they built that little feature in was in order to assist parties like mine who had no arcane magic users.

Even in normal mode, soloing with a tank wouldn't really be an easy ride. I did play the game with a fighter(4)/ranger(3)/monk(3)/paladin(x) character who dual-wielded two short swords and wore no armour, but I lost that game file before leaving the Ice Temple... Unless I still have it somewhere but I doubt that. It was a good game, sure, and the character was a lot of fun to play but nowhere close to the pwnage of my paladin/wizard. It isn't an easy ride with a tank. It isn't with anything that has a sucky Attack Bonus. But spellwords kick the collective ass of everything in the game sore (not like high-level mages don't, but surviving the beginning with a mage is a different story). Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Blink, Fire Shield (Blue), Shield, Improved Invisibility, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendour, Draw upon Holy Might, Holy Power, Prayer, Mordenkainen's Sword, Tenser's Transformation, blast. Battles take a fraction of the time casting all your buffs takes. :rolleyes: Alternatively, you can skip on Tenser's and throw fireballs around or try to get surrounded and cast some five or six Sunfires in a row. With Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Greater Spell Penetration and Spirit of Flame, of course... :rolleyes:

Also, this comes from the freedom of 3E rules.

When playing BG or IWD games, didn't you ever wish you could dual your Paladin with a Cleric. Or think it was stupid that only Druid/Fighters and Ranger/Cleric multis were allowed. Now you no longer have to continue with a class when you could make it stronger by adding other class levels.

I don't think I'll ever play a pure fighter again. Or a pure anything. The pure Monk build is more of an abomination, or a curiosity.
We know that tanking abilities tend to plataue out after a few levels. Why do you think Kensai[13]/Thief[x] duals are so famous in BG II? After a while its just more of the same with those classes. No wonder you will never find a generic tank build in the powergaming guides.

That still does not mean that the heavily armoured tank is useless. Try taking a pack of wizards through Targos and uptill reclaiming the bridge. Now do it again with a Barbarian. You will see the difference.

OK so we agree that meat-shields are essential in the beggining of the game, where spell-casters develop their powers, but then in HoF, spellcasters are all so powerful that melee-fighters only try to stay alive and keep badguys busy until the mage manages to cast a WoB which kills lots. Sigh. ıt may be unbalanced BUT as I favor spell casters over fighting types it is great fun for me! :roll:

I had an evil necromancer which did not even bother to cast Stoneskin on fighters. 'They should bleed, they are stupid meatshields anyway' he thought. :evil:

Ofcourse, my cleric13/Evoker17 was much more versatile and helpfull to the party's meatshields, via buffs, stoneskins, instant healings etc. as he is such a good boy! (aka:A Silverstar of Selune! :shake: )

Shrikant,

I think a paladin would be better than a barbarian if one were putting together a 1 tank 5 wimp party. By the end the tank is going to be relegated to long range sniping anyways(with the mithral arc or twelve paces), and he might as well be able to cast holy power on himself.

I agree with DanSkibo, paladin makes a better late game tank. Use that platemail to your advantage, then don't forget the Holy Avenger sword. Self buffing, high saves, and some good melee damage.

Aah ... perhaps. Its just that I can't take the holier-than-thou bull**** of Paladin orders. I'd much rather make a Paladin who got fed up and turned over to a new class, eg. Paladin[3]Painbearer of Ilmater[17]. Or make a Barbarian[20] and just point-and-kill. :p