When do you all think it is the best time to dual each class? I heard someone mention for Bards it should be at level 12. What about the others? Why? If you would like to add your favourite combos as well.

It's not really a matter of when you are going to take levels in a different class but how many. "When" starts to matter when you're threatened by the multiclassing penalty to XP. This happens if your classes are more than one level apart, excluding your favoured class. For humans and half-elves, their highest level class is the favoured one, so you can have as many levels of bard and one other class as you wish. But if you're something else, you will lose XP for waiting till level 12 with multiclassing. And 11 gives you all bard songs. Not sure what 12 gives you... maybe a spell slot level?

I don't know if Svy's post was influenced by my earlier post, but level 12 gives an additional boost in Saving Throws and BAB for a Bard. If you want to have Bard, and be really good at another class, you want 11 levels of Bard maximum.

It depends on what advantages you wish to gain.

Barbarian
Barbarian[2] for Uncanny Dodge and speed bonus. Barbarian[15] for Greater Rage. Barbarian[20] for Tireless Rage.
Bard
Bard[11] for last Song. Bard[12] for added saving throws.
Cleric
Cleric[1] to enable Specialist Wizard to learn all spells and for class bonuses. Cleric[17] for all spells.
Druid
Druid[12] for maximum strength Barkskin. Druid[15] for Immumity to fatigue. Druid[22] for all Wild Shapes.
Fighter
Fighter[2] for 2 free feats. Fighter[4] to enable specialisation.
Monk
Monk[1] for Evasion and saves. Monk[5] for +1AC.
Paladin
Paladin[1] if you only want the saves. Paladin[2] for Immunity to Fear. Paladin[3] for extra Turn Undeads if Cleric is main class.
Ranger
Ranger[1] for free Dual-Weilding. Ranger[5] for extra racial attack bonus.
Rogue
Rogue[1] at charecter-creation for extra skill points. Rogue[2] for Evasion. Rogue[10] for improved feats.
Sorcerer
As many as possible.
Wizard
Wizard[21] is most efficient.

Thanks. What combos you like doing, out of curiosity?

Paladin/wizard (IIRC 13/13 at the moment of finishing the game) was my favourite. Paladin/sorcerer wasn't bad but less fun. There was that girl Archentrudis who started as a fighter with 8 STR and 8 CON but 20 WIS. ;) Then I got her Fighter(4)/Ranger(3)/Monk(3)/Paladin(x). She was a nice character to play. My brother had a drow rogue/wizard and liked him a lot but wasn't able to do the final battle. I like the Ranger(x)/Rogue(2) idea, as you don't need a pure rogue.

For a bard, I suggest Bard(11)/Sorcerer(x) or Fighter(4)/Bard(x) (unless you also want Rogue(3)).

Edit: Oh, and remember about Favoured Class. IIRC no race or subrace has bard. Double-check your character builds to avoid the XP penalty for multiclassing.

[ November 05, 2005, 16:25: Message edited by: chevalier ]

Tiefling Barbarian[20]/Rogue[10] 18-16-18-14-10-2 is a sneaky bastard who can really beat the crap out of any target. :evil: Barbarian[20]/Battlegaurd of Tempus[8]/Fighter[2] was made only for the added protection of elemental feats. (I agree, it was a retarded plan.) Barbarian[15]/Druid[15] is even worse but it works. | Bard[12]/Druid[18] sings, uses darts and wades into combat only if shapeshifted. Bard[11]/Sorcerer[19] is the most common type of Bard. The bonus to saves from an extra Bard level is not worth losing an L8 & L9 spell. | Dreadmaster of Bane[17]/Druid[12]/Monk[1]'s only wish is to buff up other party members. Leave Monk for as late as possible. Watcher of Helm[20]/Paladin[8]/Fighter[2] does pretty well in combat as a punisment absorbing tank. Mask, Tempus and Talos make for good 1 level mixins for their bonuses. Lathander and Oghma are best taken to L20, atleast. | Druid[26]/Fighter[4] makes a decent fighter. Druid[26]/Fighter[2]/Rogue[2] has no problems sneaking while in panther shape. | Sorcerer[29] is as good as Sorcerer[30]. It is then a tossup between Aasimar Paladin[1]/Sorcerer[29] v/s Drow Sorcerer[30]. Drow Sorcerer[27]/Paladin[2]/Monk[1] has superb saves, MR, use of practically all weapons and armour, superb tanking ability when properly buffed. This comes at the expence of a spell each of levels 3,5 & 7. | The confused Deep Gnome (TM) looks like this:
Illusionist[21]/Dreadmaster of Bane[1]/Rogue[2]/Monk[1]/Fighter[2]/Ranger[1]. Last 2 levels of your choice.I rarely use Fighters, Monks, Paladins, Rangers and Rogues as other than mixins.

How this favourite class works? It deals only with xp penalty?
Can I start leveling up another class and then start leveling up my first one?


# Bard[11]/Sorcerer[19] is the most common type of Bard. The bonus to saves from an extra Bard level is not worth losing an L8 & L9 spell.
Why you need to sacrifice a L8 $ L9 spell? I take your maximum overall level is 30?
Anyway, thanks for all your suggestions; I will try some dual classing, as I think my pure fighter and rogue would be more useful multi classed.
Considering the high WIS of my Monk, I suppose it will be a good combo if I turn him into a Sorcerer as well.
Sticking with my pure Drow Wizard though, I think.

XP penalty is what you get when your classes are more than one level apart. Your favoured class simply doesn't count in the calculation.

For example:

Female drow have cleric as their favoured class. So if you have two classes, cleric and whatever else, you can take your levels as you want. But if you have other classes, e.g. fighter and wizard, those need to stay within one level from each other. Female drow fighter(5)/wizard(6) gets no penalty but fighter(5)/wizard(7) is penalised. If it's a fighter(3)/rogue(4)/cleric(20), it's like fighter(3)/rogue(4) because cleric doesn't count. And fighter(7)/cleric(20) if just like fighter pure class.

Humans and half-elves are a bit more complicated. Simply the highest level class doesn't count. For example:

Human fighter(20)/cleric(6) is fine, no penalty. Human fighter(10)/cleric(6)/wizard(7) is also fine. But said human fighter(20)/cleric(6) stops being fine when you add wizard(1), which gets you the penalty because the difference between cleric and wizard levels is 5 (fighter levels not taken into consideration).

Therefore, bard in order to be your favoured class, needs to be the highest level class. So, bard(11)/sorcerer(3) is fine. Add fighter(1) and it's not fine (11 doesn't count, 3-1=2 ergo penalty). Of course, sorcerer(12)/bard(7) is also fine but not if you also have fighter(3) or rogue(12) or something like that. And so on and so forth.

How this favourite class works? It deals only with xp penalty?
It's "favored" class, and it works like this:

Normally, if your class levels are more than one apart, you will receive an xp penalty. Each race have different favored classes (look in the manual), and this favored class does NOT count for the calculation of xp penalties.

The second definition of favored class is for the paladin and monk orders--each order has a favored class (see manual) in which you may freely level-up along with your pally/monk levels. If your other class is not one of these, you will no longer be allowed to level-up as a pally/monk. Oh, and the first rule above still applies.

Can I start leveling up another class and then start leveling up my first one?
Yes, unless your first class was paladin or monk and your second class is not one of your order's favored classes.

*Edit: OK this took so long to type that Chev beat me by five minutes...*

Just curious: Shrikant, how does 1 level of Cleric allow a specialist Wizard access to all spells?

TIA

If you have read Klorox's recent posts, he mentions that Bard[12] get a bonus to BAB and saving throws as compared to Bard[11]. However taking 12 Bard levels with your Bard/Sorcerer would mean that you can only take 18 Sorcerer levels and the difference between Sorcerer[18] and Sorcerer[19] is a spell each of L8 & L9. Thats what I ment.

Clerics and Druids have Wis as their casting stat. Wizards use Int. Sorcerers and Bards cast according to their Char.
A high Wis will not help a Sorcerer.

@Klorox
You know specialist Wizards cannot cast spells from opposing schools. However there is a bug in IWD II. Due to it if a charecter can cast spells from a different source, then spells of all schools become available.

The Specialist still cannot use arcane scrolls of the opposing class. But he can learn from them, effectively overriding the specialist mages' disablility.
Bards, Clerics, Druids and Sorcerers too can cast spells from early on. So any of these classes will work. I just prefer Clerics since then you have access to all the Cleric items including scrolls and wands.

It is useful if your Wizard can cast Resserection from a scroll.

[ November 05, 2005, 21:09: Message edited by: Shrikant ]

I'd rather have the level 8 and 9 nine spell, really. Even if it's just a use per day, but definitely so if it's (also) a spell known.

By the way, ever tried Tenser's Transformation, Mordenkainen's Sword and Executioner's Eyes on one character at the same time? Executioner's Eyes is the ultimate buff and a level 9 spell. For a bard/sorcerer, it will only really matter with aforementioned other spells, but it should create a powerful melee presence.

It is spell known Chev.

The Specialist still cannot use arcane scrolls of the opposing class. But he can learn from them, effectively overriding the specialist mages' diablility.
Bards, Clerics, Druids and Sorcerers too can cast spells from early on. So any of these classes will work. I just prefer Clerics since then you have access to all the Cleric items including scrolls and wands.Oh cool! I need to go edit a post...

EDIT: Are you saying they need to actually be able to cast from a different school, or is being part of a spellcasting class enough?

i.e.: Will a level of Cleric with a WIS lower than 10 work? Will a level of Bard (who doesn't get spells until level 2) work?

[ November 05, 2005, 23:41: Message edited by: Klorox ]

Thanks. What combos you like doing, out of curiosity? Drow Sorcerer X / Monk 1 / Paladin 1

In theory a 40% xp penalty, but there are a couple ways to get around it:
1. Add Monk and Paladin at the end. You'll suffer a 20% penalty for one level; no big deal.
2. Get Monk and Paladin right away, then squat until you are ready to add all the Sorcerer levels at once.

Summons don't improve after level 27, so we could add a third non-sorcerer level:
Monk: +1 to all saves, deflect arrows (which I've heard is useless)
Cleric (favored class): scroll use, two castings of Sanctuary.
Paladin: Immunity to fear. Probably the best option, even though your Will save is already sky-high.

I have a Drow female Rogue, at level 10, and I was thinking in multiclassing her into a Ranger, but considering this xp penalty, I suppose it wont pay off? I read in the manual it is 20% for each level more than 1 apart. What do you think?

Seriously, if anybody knows the answer to my question, I'd love to hear it.

I wouldn't know. No spellcasting class other than Cleric receives innate advantages at L1. No charecter has -ve Wis modifier since I don't want them charmed. So I just take Cleric.

iirc they should know spells from the other class in order for this to work.

So, should I start leveling up my rogue Drow as a Ranger at all?

@Klorox: Different spellcasting class should be enough. With my paladin/diviner, conjuration was still greyed out but I was able to learn the spells (which I didn't). This is a bug exploit, not a particular interpretation of the 3E rules in the game. ;)

@Svyatoslav: Not worth it, I think. Instead, either enjoy a single class rogue (even if for the fact it's totally not required for successful game completion) or try a rogue/cleric. Sounds odd but not in the case of the drow and priestesses of Lloth. No, I think it's not such an odd idea for a priestess of Lloth to have rogue levels.

Unless you want to level squat for 9 levels, don't. The 20% XP penalty really bites.

Since Drow females have Cleric as favoured levels, taking Cleric levels is better. You can have fun casting Santuary in the middle of the fight and backstabbing the confused idiots.