I'm very frustrated with thieves, they're necessary for a goodparty but always lack in actual combat abilities (only backstabbing, which, unless you have an AI script that does it automatically, becomes boring and tedious). The best thief I've been able to come up with is a halfing fighter/thief, but he's still pretty crappy. Valen (downloadable NPC), was terrific, but only because of her claws that level drain. Please tell me all your thief ideas. It's sort of personal quest for the most powerful combat thief retaining backstab and sufficient thief abilities.

Well, if you don't mind being quite seriously cheesy then traps can be very strong indeed... almost too strong, in fact. A few traps can dish out a lot of death, and can make some tough fights much easier

Actually, I had pretty good success with my very first protagonist – a swashbuckler dualled to a fighter. I dualled right away, but you could also wait until level 10 for the additional bonuses to AC, damage and thac0, plus extra thieving points. With this character, you essentially get a fighter (somewhat beefed up for the swashbuckler bonuses) with some basic thieving abilities for picking locks and detecting and disarming traps. The main downside is that you will have fewer hitpoints. But if you are looking for a basic utility thief, this is a good way to go.

Well he said he wanted a thief that could retain backstabbing. The best option you've already done, a mc Fighter/Thief. They're quite unreal once you get them high enough, what level did you get him to? An Elf specializing in long swords and single weapon style (double the critical hits, more critical hit backstabs which can easily hit over 120 damage by lvl 10/12 or so). Then you get traps of course, like someone said above, very powerful. Get the Shadow Dragon Armor and Boots of Speed and you can do plenty of damage. Just stick with the multi, if anything you'll be disappointed because he's too powerful. ;)

I also think the way to go is multi class fighter thief. Take halfling if you want slightly better thievery. Take dwarf if you want slightly better HP. If you're short of thieving points, you could carry the appropriate rings along in a gem bag, and of course there's potions of perception/master thievery.

You could even play evil and get the human flesh, but I don't remember if that is better or worse than the shadow dragon mail.

You could even play evil and get the human flesh, but I don't remember if that is better or worse than the shadow dragon mail Depends on how you plan on using your thief. The advantages of Shadow Dragon armor are that it has an AC that is two better than the human flesh armor and acid resistance (though acid resistance is pretty irrelevant imo). The Human flesh armor on the other hand has the advantages of a great +4 saving throws, magic resistance of 20%, and a hidden +20 to move silently. So, which is better depends on how you plan on using the thief as the only reason to use the dragon armor is for the +2 AC but that may not be crucial, YMMV. EDIT - oh, by far the most decisive factor in choosing between the two imo is that the shadow armor is a cool looking black and the human flesh is an awful looking pink color. 'Ooh, look at me! I'm the devious, neutral evil assassin..... in pink armor?' Blech, no thanks.

As far as THE strongest melee thief goes I agree that a multiclass f/t is very good however its true strength isn't found unless you play TOB and get 23 HLA. Likewise the kensai>thief. For SOA, I'd say some type of a dual class. Looks like you want melee power so a thief>fighter or fighter>thief would probably pack the most punch. You might consider a thief>mage too though (though there are plenty of those around) as a fun dual class.

Again, this is only considering SOA and not TOB.

Well, depending on what you want, a thief can be a weak character, but that's why he/she is a thief, and not a fighter. If you really wanted strong combat bonuses use a fighter, but if you want thief skills plus, use a multiclass. A swashbuckler is almost a fighter/thief, and get s good ac, but for good offence, go with the multiclass or dual to fighter when thieving skills are satisfactory.

If what you like in a thief is backstabbing, the way to go is the assassin. Equip him with the Boots of Speed and hit-and-run raids will deal massive amounts of damage while still keeping you unharmed. You are going to miss out on some other thief features due to the reduced number of ability points you will get, though.

MC Fighter/Thief is clearly the way to go.

My preferred set-up for playing evil is F/T, Edwin, Korgan and Viconia. A four-character party that is exceptionally strong and able to handle anything.

I used a Kensai dualled to a thief at level 12 and my record backstab was 240 points using the +4 short sword in Watcher's Keep. I loved that little guy.... <sniff!>

I am now trying to slog through as a Ranger/Druid keeping a party of 3 or less, which is a fun change.

Nobody is promoting Thief/Specialist Mage, and I am curious why. Seems they both complement each well. Biggest drawback is armor and THACO, which can be made up for with magic. They are some many strategies possible with this combination (thiefing, traps, protection magic, wands, etc.)Also reduces dependicies on other classes.

I am thinking about dual classing a thief to conjurer at ninth level. All really need to complement the party is front line fighters/archers and a healer.

I am now trying to slog through as a Ranger/Druid keeping a party of 3 or less, which is a fun change. And just how are you gonna do that? It's not possible with an un-modded game or IIRC a modded game...

For me, even if I could choose a Ranger/Druid, I'd take a Ranger/Cleric instead. The R/C gets all the druid spells anyway, since access to priest spells (cleric and druid) is based on the cleric's level, and ignores the ranger level. The only problem with the R/C is the blunt weapon limitation, but that's not a big deal anyway IMHO. (Sorry for getting off-topic here.)

Going waaay back to my first post in this thread, I suggested a utility thief because, even though Thewl said he wanted to be able to backstab, he also seemed to indicate that he was tired of it, so I was suggesting a different route he could take.

Depending on how much effort you are willing to put into backstabbing a thief/illusionist can be very powerful, using both spells to hide and swapping between a backstab weapon and Staff of the Magi, once you have it, to get more than one backstab where needed, and avoid taking damage at the same time.

A buffed uo Jan of course. Create your own gnome thief/illusionist wiht 19 in intelligence, 18 in dexterity, 15 in constitution and buff up you wisdom after that for the limited wish spell.

Thewl,

I'm thinking of taking a dual-class berserker/thief on my next run through BG][.

The berserker half gives fairly decent combat ability with some *very* nice (short term) immunities. The thief half is free to develop the appropriate skill levels and fine tune weapon skills.

Aeger's Hide is a good (though heavy) often overlooked option for armor that can be purchased as soon as enough money is available :D

I find backstabing in BGII is too tedious to bother about, before battle I cant be stuffed and during battle with invisibility the opponent is usually surrounded an inpossible to get in close enough.

I doo it heaps more in 3e D&D as I feel I have more time and to use my charactor to its fullest potential.
the battles seem to be less one sided in D&D :D

While backstabbing can at times be tedious it is very useful and having a hidden thief (or stalker as i normally have.) It allows you without prior knowledge or use of guides to find out what is ahead of you, and plan a good approach for your attack, and using poison on a backstab can disable enemy mages before they can get too many spells in, and will continue to damage them after thier usual protection contingency kicks in.

I usually have my thief use invisibility (potion, ring or spell) and search for traps at the same time. If enemies are spotted you can then plan your battle strategy better. I also have my thief carry potions of explosion for just such occasions.

@smr49

I didn't think it was possible to have a Ranger/Druid either.

@ Stump

I don't think that works. I don't think any thief can dual into a specialist mage. Also the only multi-class allowed specialist is if you play a gnome, and then you could only be an illusionist, not a conjuror.

Just to clarify Aldeth’s comment (and I have a feeling this is what he meant), I don’t think you can dual-class anything (thieves or otherwise) into a specialist mage, nor can you dual-class a specialist mage into anything (possible exception for an illusionist?). This is because, in order to be a valid dual-class, it must also be a valid multi-class, and the only valid M/C specialist mage is a gnomish illusionist/thief, as Aldeth said.

Think you could dual class a specialist mage into something for the same reason you can dual class a thief kit into something (ex. swashbuckler>mage is legit). You can't dual class 'into' a kit but you can dual 'from' a kit (barring the use of SK or other utilities).

The thing is, people typically don't want to dual 'from' a mage, kit or otherwise, because a mage gets her true power at high levels. Conversely, other classes/kits gain a great deal of usefulness at lower levels (like thieves, with a moderate number of levels you could have all the thief skills up to ~100; or the hp of a fighter class which maximizes its hp benefit at 9).

Generally I think that among the multiclassed thieves the mage-thief, the gnomish illusionist thief especially, is the most capable and interesting, as the mc fighter-thief becomes very mediocre over the game, gaining levels slowly. The mage-thief is a formidable back-up spellcaster and can even be a good primary one when he's backed up with a little brute force.

But even a normal thief can be surprisingly strong, just don't use him as a frontliner, he isn't made for that. So don't wonder that my favourite thief is a female halfling one (thanks to ability and paperdoll).

Reverting to less convential means it is possible to create a normal multiclassed thief as a pregenerated char (in MPlayer), open it with SK and add the kit you like to have - be it a mc barbarian/ kensai/ berserker/ wizardslayer or kensai-rogue or mc-swashbuckler/ assassin or bountyhunter-mage (especially the swashbuckler variant is a little cheesy IMO, because of the immense AC) or even my favourite - the very funny mc wildmage-thief (you only need to add the two spells the wildmage gets on lvl-1 to lvl-3 then - iirc chaos shield and nahal's something).

These are very enjoyable new chars that add some spice to a game when you have played it a couple of times.

@ Splunge

Thanks for the assist. Yes, I was trying to say you can't dual INTO a mage specialist regardless of what class you started with. I also don't think dual-classing works with illusionists, because only gnomes have the ability to be specialists and something else, and gnomes can't dual class.

However, I think it IS possible to dual from a specialist into something else. A specialist mage is like a mage kit. However, as stated, why would you dual from a mage into something else?

@ Aldeth - Yep, you're right. I just tested dualling an Abjurer and an Illusionist to a fighter, and they both worked. But as you suggest, this is a purely academic exercise, since dualling from a mage (specialist or otherwise) doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course, all this is way :yot:

Edit: @ dAS (below) - I didn't want to create another off-topic post, so I'm editing this one. Dualling to specialist mage only works in BG1. Confirmed here (http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003764#000000).

[ July 31, 2003, 16:03: Message edited by: Splunge ]

I'm pretty sure you could dual to a specialist mage, but you need the appropriate stats. For instance, a fighter dualing to a mage will need I believe 15 strength and 17 inteligence but will need 15 strength, 17 intelligence and 15 constitution to be a conjurer, or something like that. Illusionists require a different stat than a conjurer...I forget which goes with which specialist class. This was how it was in BG 1 but it could have changed in SoA. There was an FAQ I read it on and it worked from what I could tell. Maybe I'll find the link...

Thanks for the heads up. Anyway, to get back on topic, your thief will probably not miss anything by becoming a mage rather thana specialist mage. This is the only combination I find appealing, besides fighter->thief which I feel is a bit powergaming...A mage with the ability to hide and a better thaco would be nice to play, and being able to open a few locks or disarm traps that would kill them out right is a plus.

[ July 31, 2003, 17:15: Message edited by: dAS ]

Illusionists other requirement is dexterity. That's why I don't think it's possible because Imoen would have dualled to an illusionist - she certainly would meet the requirements. (Which is also why it makes sense that thief-illusionist is a natural combination for gnomes i.e., high dexterity required.

Gnomes don't get a bonus to dexterity. The combination makes sense because gnomes are a race well known for their aptitude with illusions.

If I recall correctly, dualing to a specialist was quite possible in BG1, but now that there are kits, and specialists are considered wizard kits, and one cannot dual to a kit...

You get the idea. I'm not sure this is correct, 'tis just what I remember.

I guess I misstated that "Ranger-Druid" comment. I was going to try that next, but have already packed my games since we bought a new house and don't know that it works. The comment about a party of three is a seperate idea and my favorite way to play, since everyone levels up so darn quick. :)

Sorry for throwing that "Ranger-Druid" thing out there before testing it... :(

Best thief huh? There's no such thing as the best thief. There's no such thing as the best character in the game. I like the assassin the most thoug. :rolling:

The best thief possible impossible? Of coure not! The best thief possible is a halfling pure-class thief with dex-19 - no other race-class-kit combination offers more thieving skills and greater versatility.

Thiefs aren't fighters. They aren't made for melee. Of course, there are thiefs who are better in combat, but eventually the best thieflike combat classes are either the monk or the stalker. So it's always up to your preferences, insofar you're right xnnixq, but there definitely is a best thief.

Well, I may be crazy for getting into a debate with Ragusa over the best thief possible, but I can think of two possibilities, depending on style. Both assume halfling for 19 Dex, with the Girdle of Hill Giant Strenth for 19 Str.

1. Assassin, for superior backstab and poison weapon. While there are fewer thief points to go around, IMHO the only important thieving skills are find/disarm traps, the 2 stealth skills (move silently and hide in shadows), and open locks; along with equipment bonuses from items like Nights Gift, the assassin will have more than enough points for these. Set traps is a luxury, but hardly necessary. The other skills IMO are not useful often enough to jusify spending points in; pickpockets can be handled by Gloves of Pickpocketing and Potions of Master Thievery.

2. Multi-class fighter/thief, for better melee and ranged attacks - weapon specialization (extra thac0/damage, extra attacks), fighter attack bonuses. Fewer thief levels, but full points per level; same comments as to allocation of points as above.

*steadies self for a pummelling from Ragusa*

The problem I have with pure thieves or pure thief kits is that after a while, the extra ponts you get become useless -- IIRC, there is ALWAYS a 1% chance of failure when it comes to picking locks or pockets, detecting traps, and all those things. So, once you have an ability over 100%, extra points seem kind of, well, pointless. This even happens with my favorite multi-class character, Jan -- even he ends up with 100+ points in all of his thieving skills (maybe that doesn't happen until, ahem, LATER, but it still happens).
Jan takes care of all the thieving I need him to -- I'm not much for pickpocketing, all I really use thieves for is picking locks and finding traps (though the ability to SET the occasional trap is quite nice from time to time, though I have a tough time doing that without cheating and using knowledge from previous runs through the game.)

I don't like putting my thieves anywhere close to melee -- their high dexterity makes them naturals for missile weapons, and even kits with melee combat bonuses like the assassin or the swashbuckler, well, they still only have 6 hit dice. Even a fighter / thief only comes out to 8 hit dice, and when you're going toe to toe with some of those big boys, you want 10 or 12 hit dice and the benefits of a 17 or 18 CON going for you. In the case of Jan or either of the 2 dualled girls, using a bow, crossbow, daggers, darts or slings makes a lot more sense than sending them in to flail around with a staff or a short sword.

If the backstabbing mechanism were more reliable, I'd use it more, and I might even try a full run through with an assassin, but I've just never got the knack of the old backstab procedure.

If the backstabbing mechanism were more reliable, I'd use it more...I've just never got the knack of the old backstab procedure Are you sying that you have difficulty getting the backstab to work? Because I used to as well, until I got the hang of it. Walk right up behind the enemy so that your circle is touching his, then attack. Some people suggest using F2, but I'm not really sure how this helps much (more my ignorance than anything else).

With the exception of pick pocket, imo, all of the thief skills are incredibly useful and necessary if you have designs on a solo career.

Detect Illusion is spectacular for getting rid of invisibiliy, improved invis., shadow door, etc.

Traps are incredibly helpful in a tough fight and of course if you ever want to play tob become the most powerful weapon a thief has.

I do agree that after a point more thief skills are redundant and largely not helpful but my point would be ~150 and not 100 -- it may appear that the numbers are % based but they aren't - a 100 in hide in shadows isn't really 100% with the always present 1% chance to fail.

To say who the best 'thief' is probably depends on what you're looking for and when you consider them. Looking at them at level 15 will yield a different result than looking at them at level 40 (assuming exp cap remover since this is soa). I also wouldn't discount combat ability as part of determining who is the 'best' thief since a dead thief's thieving points aren't particularly useful.

Edit - I've never had any probelms with backstab either. I don't worry about my circle touching or anything like that - just so long as I'm behind the guy and I've got the right sort of weapons it's always worked *srhug.

-As for backstabbing and the widespread popularity of the assassin here - I have played every sort of thief here and then and actually I didn't notice a real difference in damage between 5x backstab damage and 7x backstab damage - the assassin's poison weapon is spectucular, but that's about it.
-The bounty hunters traps are cool, but with the standard traps and the later high level ability traps you have tons of them - and who doesn't get bored setting ambush after ambush?
-And as for the swashbuckler: The great thing is the good THACO and the progressive AC bonus. That make up for a very good char. Then only dualwield shortswords or scimitars and you have a char who deals out formidably - lacking hitpoits to take damage.

As for skill points, I spend about 100 per skill, later as I get ballanced over the spektrum I spend what I get on numbers up to 200, even if that's hardly useful - but my thieves aim on perfection ;) .
A pure halfling thief virtually drowns in skill points when he comes to ToB. It isn't a real drawback then to choose an assassin, the high level compensates for the lack of skill points.

Definitely, it's what you're looking for: If you want a fighter with backstabbing ability, get a stalker and not a fighter-thief who may be more versatile but definitely inferior in combat. If you want a bread and butter solo char get a mage-thief so you can gain xp by learning spells, opening locks and disarming traps. If you have a party with strong chars a comparadly weak thief will be perfect as a support char. It's your choice.

fighter/thief multi-class - sit back and watch the body count rise

but i prefer playing a pure thief - much more challenging, and different strategies are required for different situations

Fighter/Thief/Mage will kick any Fighter/Thief's ass.

This is slightly :yot: , but it was mentioned briefly earlier in this thread. Someone pointed out that if you start with a thief in BGI, you could dual him to a specialist mage. From personal experience in dualling Imoen, I know this to be true. However, what was never answered is if your PC is a thief and you dual them to a specialist mage while still in BG1, do you still get to be a thief/specialist mage in BG2? or in this case would you revert to just a thief/mage in BG2?

in my last run through the game, I used a swashbuckler and a stalker to cover each others asses, it was a a good combo of characters, but if its for a pure thief, i thought the swashbuckler was awesome, the bonuses the kit gets much outweigh the penalties.

But if backstab is the way you like to play, I would suggest taking a stalker with you, other than that, i'd say a pure vanilla halfling thief, no other class will be able to beat them for pure thieving skills.

I havent had much experience with trying to tank up a thief, but my swashbuckler was moderately tough, but i just used tanks for that situation anyway.

@ Aldeth

I'm pretty sure you stay a thief/spec. mage from BG1.