"The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowlegde.
There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

State if u know what it means, or if u havent a clue. if u do, state what u think it means. only non-christians may apply, for christians who have attended sermons are not... i would say, "pure"? i want to see if everyone has a universal view, or if there may be differences in understanding bible passages.

Is it just me or are there WAY too many religious discussions here for a RPG site? Well, I can't really reply to this, but I still don't know what it means, nor do I have the will to think about such right now. Gotta get on with the more important things is life. You know, DND ;) (That's a joke by the way :p)

Don't know what it means, but I do know I don't like you writing 'u' instead of 'you'. Neither does Taluntain. Write English.

Well, I'll have a go;

"No matter who you are, where you are from, or where you are going, be sure to bring an umbrella. Chances are, it's going to rain."

I hardly think this interpretation will end up in the next version of the bible, but there it is... :p

I know what it means, but am constrained by a "gag order" demanded by the founder of this thread. :D

When you get curious enough, let me know. I'll fill you in ;)

BTW - I am curious to see what everyone else thinks this passage means! It had a key place in my sermon last week.

Note to Crawl - Yeah, there are a TON of religious questions on this RPG Forum. It baffles me also. I think that goes to show that we as a community tend to think about the deeper things in life. It also shows that religion is important, even if you don't have a "mainline" worldview.

Well, i do not like analyzing things, but I could not resist, i really love the passage. I think that it is meant to express how God made us all, and everything around us, and how he can be seen reflected just barely in it all.

A puzzle. hmmmm *lukrks around in my usual cicles* I like puzzles.


My Go: Those who will not hear God, cannot hear God. And there is no excuse since he speaks to the entire world.

Am I right?

Here's my guess:

The proof of God's existence (and perhaps the deeper truths in life) are found in nature. If we look around every day, we see evidence that he is real and designed all the beauty and order in the world -- things that could not have come about by boring evolution or causeless physics.

Meta: I thought you were a cleric who'd lost his faith. How is that you had a sermon last week?

Sounds to me like follow me or die, but I'm an atheist from way back!

It means nothing... Those guys who wrote that were drunk :D


Lets face it... The blood of Jesus... Ja, it was just wine...


No dont try to understand that you will only waste your precious time... :D

Well, I think... <slap! bang! ka-pow!> ... urk... oooops, sorry, didn't notice the gag order. :)

Nice choice though. I'll check this thread out every now and then. I'd like to know the takes of others. :)

To Mathetais: Well, I'd like to know your answer to this query. Hope to see it soon.

[This message has been edited by eveningdrive (edited September 06, 2001).]

Ah my quote from Psalm 19, that it would me the reason to start a new topic... didn't expect that. I suppose I already explained it a bit but I'll do it again, part by part.

"The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

We think we know much but we have seen only a very small part of the universe. Look at the sky, try to count the stars. Try to understand the distance between them, and between teh stars and the earth. Try to understand the way they move, everytime they come back at the same position. Can thisbe happened just by accident? Can a big boom have created this? No way! It declares that God exists.

"Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowlegde."

Knowledge.. an important word here. Stars don't give light by themselve. They reflect the light of the sun. The also deflect something of God's wisdom. The million stars in the uncountable big universe, God knows them all and controls them all, makes that they all follow the path that God set for them.

"There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard."

The nature can't talk, but in it's beauty and how things need each other, are working together or give balance, for example, you still could pick up the message that's in it for you. Something so artful, and detailed like this can't be just "evoluted" from out of nothing.

"Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

This mesasge through nature can be read by everybody. Where you live, Northpole, or Africa, or on a place where no people told the message of God, you still can know him through this message that is brought to you by nature.

Any questions about this yet?!

Shralp - I'm not *exactly* a cleric who lost his faith. I'm more of a cleric who was exiled from the traditional church because I reverted to older ideas and different forms.

I was serving a church that worshipped complacency and comfort more than they worshipped God. As a spiritual leader in this group, I was compelled to name this sin for what it was "IDOLATRY".

When gossip started tearing apart the church, I asked the leadership to enforce Jesus' guidelines in Matthew 18:15-17, ""If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the fault. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses. If that person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. If the church decides you are right, but the other person won't accept it, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector."

The elders of the church told me that they flat-out refused to follow this part of the Bible. Other events like that began to unfold until I realized that the church I was serving, as well as the denomination that supported it, were apostate (or heading towards apostasy) and that I had a tough decision to make.

I had always believed that by "making my living from my faith" I would risk loosing one or the other (my living or my faith). Since I valued my faith more than money, I left the church, tried to press charges against the offending parties, and sought employment elsewhere.

The Bible warns us that this sort of thing will happen. Paul in Acts 20:28-32 warned the leaders of one church . . . "And now beware! Be sure that you feed and shepherd God's flock--his church, purchased with his blood--over whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders. I know full well that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock. Even some of you will distort the truth in order to draw a following.Watch out! Remember the three years I was with you--my constant watch and care over you night and day, and my many tears for you. And now I entrust you to God and the word of his grace--his message that is able to build you up and give you an inheritance with all those he has set apart for himself."

This might have been way too much information . . . but I needed to get this off my chest.

It's good to talk about this. I didn't knew this.

Always use the bible and when people in a church don't act like the bible says, try to change it, and else find a church where the Word of God is told the right way.

People can't use the bible only for parts, this part do I like so I act as is asked from me in it, and the part I don't like I just ignore.

I'm glad in my church parts in the bible like the part in Matthew you mention is not unimportant. But sometimes it's indeed hard to find a church where God's Word is most important, and where people try to live like God asks from us in the bible. You found a better church?

[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited September 06, 2001).]

How did you come to that conclusion on the verse headbanger? Even though you are probably "right" I dont like the Idea of splitting the verse into small parts and explain them seperately. I like to see it as a whole. And as a whole I see it as I mentioned above. Am I a sinner if I don't Interpret this part of the bible as you? ohhhh I find it so hard sometimes, I guess I am meant to go to hell :(

Looking at the passage as a whole . . . ;)

Prelimary notes . . . Its poetry, so you can't look for every word to have an isolated meaning. It only makes sense in the context of the entire poem.

It is also written by a believers for a believing community. The book of Psalms is the manual for group worship in Israel. The songs here were sung during ceremonies and gatherings of the community. On this note, it speaks to both individuals and to the community. Individuals, because it reflects what each person experiences in nature, Communities, because the force of nature doesn't hit everyone the same way and we need to listen to each other's appreciation of God's glory to expand our own thinking.

In this context, I take this passage to be a confession of faith - triggered by God's manifestation of himself in nature. This is called "General Revelation" . . . God revealing himself to everyone through the beauty, harmony, balance and power of nature.

The group is saying, "We believe in God! This belief is strengthened by the fact that everywhere we go, we see His hand, feel His touch, and hear His voice."

There is a necessary application that moves beyond the believing community. This is the "pure, universal view" that Arkados Blackmire was looking for. (Sorry Arkados, I held my tongue for 3 whole days!!!)

This Universal View of God is that people can see that he exists. Even if you believe in evolution or the Big Bang, it is very hard to believe that this ocurred without any sort of intelligent design. (IMHO, its as much of a leap of faith to believe that as it is to believe that a heavenly Diety guided the process.)

John Calvin once said that no one trembles more at the falling of a leaf as the staunchest unbeliever. What he meant was that in the simple events of nature, we sense God's existence. The book of Ecclesisasties supports this with a passage saying that we were created for eternity. In other words, we all have a "cross-shaped hole in our souls" (quote by Pascale). One more quote from Augustine on this, "Lord, you have created us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You."

SUMMARY . . . Yeah, I'm rambling a bit (blame the caffine). But in my opinion, this passage does two things. First, it affirms believers in their faith by supporting that faith with the witness of nature. Secondly, it challenges the unbeliever to consider faith due to the fact that something inside whispers about the possiblity that there is a God and that He might just love them very much and is willing to adopt them as children.

I won't say what my priest told us, instead, I'll give you an abstract view, ahem:

RUN DAMMIT RUN! ALIEN CRAFT SHAPED LIKE CROSSES ARE LANDING!

OK, first I would friendly ask anyone who don't wanna have a serious discussion, not to reply on this topic. The first one who wants this may start a new topic for non serious talk about religion. Don't spoil this topic with replies like the one above...

To Nobleman: When you say that, this discussion is useless, for what we discuss is only a part of the whole Psalm. (1/6 to be exact)

As you of course noticed, the explanation per sentence is aren't just several parts, but however theere are some differences, they all go about the same, just as the passage we discuss. So I don't devide it in four parts, I explain part by part. Put is all together and you see one story about one subject, just as you will see one piece of poetry when you put the four sentences I devided the psalm in together again.

Mathetias: You, as an American, and also a preacher, you said just what I meant, but with better words :) Talking english was never more difficult for me then in religious discussions :) But I'm glad you are helping me a bit, and even made a summary of the whole passage for me, (so nobleman understands it too). But you know, Nobleman... compare my explanation with the one Math gave. Isn't it almost totally the same?

Through nature you can know God, it can't be that nothing evoluted to this. A great Artist worked on this. The universe.. can we understand it? Can we understand the distances, how the stars get always in the same way, can we understand the size of it? We can't. But God controls it all easily. We can't understand all about God, but still he let us know he exists, us, small humans. Isn't that great?

Mat, sounds like a tough situation you had.

I've felt pretty strongly about those verses as well. Seems like people are so quick to complain to everyone else, but no one wants to be the one to stand up and take care of an issue. But I've seen it done the Scriptural way (with the right attitude, I might add; speaking the truth in love), and there's no comparison. You don't really have to worry about having to cast someone out of fellowship; if you go about it in a Christlike manner, reconciliation will almost certainly follow.

Reminds me of a story about a group of underground believers in Russia (or some other Slavic country). Missionaries were asking them how they dealt with sin in the congregation. They responded that they prayed together. Thinking of the aforementioned Scriptures, the missionaries pressed, "What if that doesn't work?" "We don't know," came the answer. "We've never lost a one yet." 1 Peter 5:16 in action.

But all this Scripture quoting brings another one to mind. This might be a tough question, but what about how 1 Corinthians 6:1-7 would apply to this situation?

Capstone - that passage applies to Christians taking brothers to secular court. I took the elders in question to the church court - pressing charges as the second to last escalation level in Matthew 15.

Since that didn't work, I have accepted the injustice and moved on.

The disciple was supposed to help them, to help them see their way back to God's grace. The fact that it didn't work breaks my heart.

This is my comprehension for it: If you don't believe in god, he's not gonna let you hear his "voice". If you do, you are praised.

We are always here for you matt.


EDITED HERE, Ahh just saw your message Shadow chick. This is the understanding I got too. If its a sin and I go to hell at least I wont be going alone :p

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited September 08, 2001).]

Shadow_Goddess: I don't think it has anything to do with God "letting" you here his voice. It's there for anyone who choses to hear it.
"Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
meaning quite literally it goes out to all the earth.
Nobleman:
"My Go: Those who will not hear God, cannot hear God. And there is no excuse since he speaks to the entire world"

With this statement I believe you portrayed it more accurately than any extensive explanation.
The "voices" are always there....... but only for those who choose to hear them.

Its time to wake up. You'll be late for school.

I'm joining the arguement a bit late, but I just have to speak up when I find religious discussions.
Headbanger: Your interpretating of the passage appears me Typical Christian Drivel™. If you'll forgive the expression, I'll continue. You say that since we, as humans, cannot possibly comprehend the distances between stars, the motions of celestial bodies, that it must be proof of your god? Stars don't give light by themselves? What do you mean? Something as "artful" and beautiful cannot simply have evolved? Do not all arts evolve over time? You don't think man is born with the knowledge to build skyscrapers, do you? As did nature and all things, this *knowledge* evolved over generations. Your arguements seem a classical play on the limited understanding of the human mind, which in no way proves that YOUR god is anything but a dream in the minds of the masses.
Just my 2 cp.

I think it means wherevar you are someone will preach religion at you.

Lol

I hate this computer. I've lost my post, but I'll try again.
*ahem*

Man's knowledge did not "evolve". It grew. He did not magically arrive at that knowledge by some process of "survival of the fittest" or random genetic mutations. He gained his knowledge by perseverance; by directed, conscious effort. His creations are not by random chance; they are a direct result of that conscious effort. No one would be foolish enough to say a clock evolved; it is just as ludicrous to say that the knowledge to build that clock evolved.

Incidentally, I find evolutionists' devotion to their theory (I use the word simply out of politeness, as I would hardly grant it that status) rather religious myself. They throw out any data that might contradict their preconceived notions, and grasp at any evidence that might support it in some way. Let's face it... when you have to stretch to similarity of embryos to lend credence, you're getting far too enamored of your hypothesis.

Evolutionists are just as intolerant as Christians when it comes to criticism as well, and perhaps more. There is a case (I'll supply specifics later, once I reread the article) before the courts now regarding a M.S. Biology major who was fired from his high school teaching position because he dared to teach some of the theoretical problems with evolution. He was not teaching creationism, nor was he making religious references; he was simply taking a critical look at the actual scientific evidence. But since these particular evolutionists desperately wanted their "theory" to be fact, they found that unacceptable.

As any student of thermodynamics knows, the theory of evolution actually runs directly counter to the known nature of the universe. The tendency of all things is actually toward maximum DISORDER, not order. This is known as the law of entropy -- the second law of thermodynamics. Everything in the universe is essentially falling apart, not achieving greater viability. :)

Oh, now you shouldn't have gone and done that, we don't want to turn this religious debate into an evolution debate do we?

I have talked about misconceptions of evolution such as yours in another thread, so I won't cover them again here, but your last paragraph, I MUST rebut.

As any student of thermodynamics knows, the second law of thermodynamics does NOT state that everything progresses from order to disorder. What it essentially says is that the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease. The earth and the life on it are not closed; the Sun provides more than enough energy to drive many processes that produce order from chaos and not the other way around. Look at life itself; if that's not order from disorder I don't know what is. If you believe that life is somehow exempt from the second law because of God's divine influence or something, there are plenty of nonliving examples as well; how about the crystalline structure of snowflakes? If order from disorder is not the norm in nature, then why is it all around us?

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited September 11, 2001).]

Heh. I thought you'd enter after that post.

Granted, the earth is not a closed system. But consider the universe as a closed system, or, by conveniently ignoring the "negligible" radiation of the stars (compared to the sun's, anyway), let's consider the solar system as closed. Now we see that although we do have some processes occurring where entropy decreases, in the end the sun is going to die, taking all life with it. Certainly there are some processes that can run "uphill", but the overall tendency is toward the lowest energy state and maximum entropy.

True enough, but while the Sun is flooding the Earth with its energy, using the Second Law of Thermodynamics as proof against evolution simply doesn't hold water.

Means if you get high on acid read the bible and look at the sky, judas priest will begin blasting at really high volume.