Thu, 12th Dec '02, 11:12pm
What do you think about it? Is it moral? Immoral? Right? Wrong? Opinions on the topic would be greatly appreciated.
View Full Version : Prostitution
Thu, 12th Dec '02, 11:12pm
What do you think about it? Is it moral? Immoral? Right? Wrong? Opinions on the topic would be greatly appreciated.
Thu, 12th Dec '02, 11:18pm
Well, if drinking, smoking or smoking marihuana is allowed in this world, then prostitution should be too.. eh, your body, your choice. Itīs a "free" world, right?
As long as it it ainīt forced, and with children, I donīt see a problem there.
Not that I ever see the red light district or something...
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 12:28am
The oldest profession. I don't see anything wrong with it per se; there are scores of other services we pay for, why should this be any different?
It has to be cleaned up, though. Take the pimps out of the equation. Regulate it as has been done with the sale and consumption of liquor. So long as it is a conscious act on behalf of two consenting adults, it need not be an issue. There is no reason I can think of that prostitution cannot be as legitimate a profession as any other. With some government regulation, the profession can be cleaned up, the prostitutes need not worry about pimps and the subsequent abuses, the government can make some additional tax dollars from it and everyone walks away happy.
Looking at it from the basest of levels, sex is something everyone needs but, sadly, not always something everyone can get. Whether it be lousy looks, a lousy personality, or anything else, some people just can't "get any" in the conventional way. Rather than marginalising these people (or should I say marginalising them more as whatever it is that stops them from "getting some" has clearly already marginalised them in some way?) this can easily be viewed as a free exchange of services for money.
While it is a bit of a stretch - being since rapists generally act out of more than mere sexual desire - it may even help reduce the incidence of rape.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 12:34am
The problem isnt really if its right or wrong or about moral, I dont really see a problem in any of those departments and as Morgoth said: the body is the one thing that is completely one persons property for them to use.
The problem is really all the problems prostitution brings and the possibilities for abuse. For example so is drugs and prostitution closely related in an malevolent downward spiral either an addict prostitutes to get her dope and by be being a prostitute the need for drugs to numb the senses and get any similarity of happyness more drogs is need and to get more drugs you need to sell your body even more and so it continues. Even if the person that sells her body isnt an addict from the start there is a huge risk that she will be, selling your body is so degrading and 'filthy' to the person doing it that drugs comes easily as a way of fleeing from the horrible world.
There is also the problem of abuse, pimps invariable show up when prostitutes are considered and not only take away much of the monetary gains from the prostitute but take advantage of her in all other imaginable ways possible as well. They can even as can be seen all over Europe buy girls/women from poorer country to sell them to rich western europeans and luring them with promises of nice jobs in western countries while instead they lock them into some apartment and forces them to serve customer after customer, even children are abused in that way. It is very hard to distuinguish between 'willing *****s' and not so willing ones.
First I think that the act of buying sex should be criminalised, this has some problem of its own but I wont go into them now. But as long as there is demand there will be supply and by making buying sex a felony you take away some of the demand atleast. Secondly I dont think it will do any good to punishment for the prostitutes as that isnt likely to get them to stop selling sex but they should be given the oppurtunity to first off get clean if they have drugproblems and secondly social help to come away from the world they live in and start anew.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 12:53am
I will concede that prostitution and drug use do tend to be linked. That is not necessarily a causal relationship, however. Perhaps the drugs are used to numb the senses more from the abuse of pimps than anything else. Perhaps it is from a sense of helplessness. Is a prostitute turning to drugs really so different from the middle-aged, minimum wage waitress trying to put food on the table finding solace in the bottom of a bottle?
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 1:48am
Well, I think that like a lot of things, this has had to much fuss kicked up over it 'just because'. To me it's not hurting anyone, it provides a service which there's obviously a market for, and indeed should really be legalised. It's like drugs, if it's legalised, and regulated then all the bad around it will probably dissapear. And I'm shattered right now, so that doesn't really sound right, but I hope people understand what I mean.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 2:25am
Did you post this thread to try to get an incredibly emotional post from me?
Actually, believe it or not, I'm not really opposed to it. While I would not partake in it, nor would I ever be attracted to someone who did, I can see the benefits of having it legalized.
Drug use often leads to prostitution, as the women are attempting to get back their money to buy more drugs. It can also work the other way. Not sure which is more common.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 2:39am
What's the difference between exchanging sex for money and exchanging sex for services or items? The first is illegal in many countries, the second is called having a sugar daddy or an active dating life. I know many women who feel obligated to give sexual favors when they are taken out to "nice" restaurants or other similar places. One of my wife's former roomates had an actual monetary line, where if the date spent over $X, she would give sex. Why isn't that illegal?
Most important in this question is removing the excessive dangers involved in the profession: disease, drugs, pimps, rapes, etc. If it is legalized, will that get rid of these problems? Nevada has certain areas of legalized prostitution and it generally appears to work. i think you would definitely get rid of a lot of the pimp danger (not to be confused with paying the house a cut, i.e. to the extent that the prostitute is operating in a larger establishment, he or she should pay either a flat fee or a percentage for a share of the overhead and the like) and a lot of the disease danger. If the prostitute operates in a larger establishment, I would assume that would also cut down on the rape danger. I don't know whether anything can cut down on the risk of drug use because I don't know what mental trauma goes along with being a prostitute and whether there is a predisposition towards drug use by those who choose to be prostitutes.
However, given that the profession is not going away and it appears to me that more good than harm will be done by legalizing and regulating it, I'm in favor.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 6:38am
This one tears me to two sides. On the one hand, the libertarian side of me notes that if one person wishes to agree to have sex with another in exchange for money then there has been an offer, consideration, and acceptance -- the major factors necessary for a legally binding contract.
However, I'd like to note that we wouldn't allow one person to choose to sell herself to another for life -- a contract where you agree to become the slave for another is not legally enforceable. So, not all contracts made by legal adults are binding.
We choose not to allow certain behavior sometimes even when it might occur between consenting adults because we have determined as a society that the harm done to society is grave enough to outweigh the individual rights being suppressed.
First, I'd point out that the primary force driving women to prostitution isn't merely a desire for money but rather severe poverty and a lack of other viable opportunities. Legalizing prostitution would in my opinion amount to admitting that nothing can be done to combat the poverty which typically drives women to prostitution -- it is in many ways admitting defeat.
Legalizing prostitution would of course also amount to the state sanctioning the view of women as sex objects. Oh, you might say that legalizing prostitution would also make male prostitutes legal but be realistic, we all know the relative numbers of male prostitutes to female prostitutes without needing to find documentation. The state sanctioning this view might lead to promoting an atmosphere in society leading to a greater marginalisation of women -- you'll never convince me it's the poor men who can't "get any" that deserve our pity with regards to this issue.
I am more than skeptical that legalizing prostitution would have any appreciable effect on the number of rapes which occur. In over 2/3 of all reported rapes the vitim and assaultant knew each other socially. The FBI has stated they believe only roughly 1 out of 10 rapes is reported. It seems to me that you would be less likely to report a rape when the victim knew the person socially so the former numbers may be higher. In short, since in most cases the two know each other it seems there is more going on than a slow building of an overwhelming desire to "get some" and more a case of someone wanting sex with a particular person. That won't change by having sex with a stranger.
Legalizing prostitution also doesn't get rid of illegal prostitution. In the U.S., Europe, and Asia where prostitution is legal the women commonly have to turn over up to 50% of their profits which means they'll need to engage in more sexual encounters. Often women have to register as prostitutes and that will follow them for the rest of your life -- imagine trying to apply for a school teacher job in the future with "prostitute" on your resume. Legalizing prostitution will not likely leave the women who register much in the way of future options. Also, since they're registered, whenever the woman goes to the doctor or to court or wherever she can likely expect to be treated as a second class citizen.
Since the taxes, brothel costs, medical costs etc add up so high illegal prostitution is prevalent even where prostitution has been legalized. In Germany there are 3 times the number of illegal prostitutes as legal ones and in Greece 10 times the number. The problems that persist with illegal prostitution now persist with the commonplace illegal prostitution even where it has been legalized. So, you aren't really getting rid of the problem by legalizing prostitution since the illegal industry will continue to flourish.
If you really want to combat the problems associated with prostitution then the best way to go about it is to work to provide women economic alternatives. Also, instead of arresting the women engaged in prostitution which doesn't decrease demand and which is common the state should aggressively pursue the men in hopes of decreasing the demand.
I guess I'm saying that legalizing prostitution won't get rid of the problems which we have now due to illegal prostitution since that will continue to flourish. At the same time legalizing prostitution gives state sanction to potentially damaging images of women while at the same time attaching a state made stigma to the women who do choose to legally register. The underlying root of the problem, poverty, meanwhile would continue untouched.
My 2 cents, or 4 or 5.
[ December 13, 2002, 06:44: Message edited by: Laches ]
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 9:30am
Prostitution moral: Depends on your line of thinking
Prostitution right: sure
Prostitution for me?: never, IMHO paying to have sex is for the weak, even if I could never have sex I wouldn't pay for it.
Intentioner of the Damned
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 10:09am
I wouldn't say that it is wrong. I'm not saying that if i was really desperated i wouldn't purchase such services (but it wouldn't be the same as with someone you are truely passionate about).
However, I think the questions should be:
How many prostitutes are happy doing what they do?
How many of them, once into it can easily get out of it and into a "respected" job??"
For how many prostitutes is their work a means to an end, a way to get just enough money to live off or to feed any habits they have, which are probably brought about through prostitution?
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 11:37am
Hmmm, you forgot to also ask how many women would give up recieving Ģ100 upwards an hour according to the News of the World many many moons ago, for some crappy minimum wage job? Or even work for people who are stupid, lazy and worthy of less respect than a fly? Chances are thats where they'll end up.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 11:49am
Prostitution is unavoidable anyway, so any attempts for criminalising as well as demonising it are futile and foolish.
In germany prostitution, for a long time, was considered immoral. That meant that a prostitute who demanded her payment would have failed when claiming it in court. On the other hand, didn't hinder the governemt to make them pay income tax. They are also obliged to pay for their social insurance.
However, last year there was a case where a prostitute demanded payment from an unwilling customer. Usually this problem does not arise because of the mountains of muscles taking care of proper payment :D
A courageous judge in Berlin broke out: She, for the first time in a german court, sentenced a customer to pay - taking the consequences from the obligations to pay taxes and social insurance. Serves him right :shake:
[ December 13, 2002, 13:24: Message edited by: Ragusa ]
Master of Nuhn
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 12:50pm
Good sex is payed with love, not money. My reason not to go to a prostitute.
Lust can be bought with money, though.
I prefer love over lust.
I won't start the religious aspect again (Too late)
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 2:07pm
You can't always love someone who makes great sex, but you can always pay for it! Prostitution rules.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 2:18pm
Master of Nuhn: Religious aspect isn't needed, because it doesn't apply for everyone. There has to be a solid reason that defines the matter as such that everyone with any-, or no religion must accept it. Of course, religions offer good points on a lot of things, and on a personal level may decide everything. But a religion is comparable to an opinion in the sense that there are individuals who fully reject them, and have the right to do so as well.
Don't take my answer as a personal insult or anything such like as it wasn't intended to be one. I've had my own religious moments and am currently pondering through those things again, after being an atheist for several years. So I can respect religion, although too often I do find people blinded and unable to think on their own because of it.
Anyway, about prostitution.
If it could be assured that it is not done under forced conditions. That it did not involve and provoke the usage of drugs and criminal activity. If it would not further enhance the spread ratio of genital diseases. But was a free and safe choice that had none of the pre-mentioned side-effects. Then I could accept it. For it is true, many men do find these services needful. There's a huge amount of money involved in it, which tells pretty much of people's desires. And I imagine a great majority of the people who are not currently using sexual services would in fact do so if it were made easier and safer, and if the society wouldn't condemn it so. It's a fact (if a tad sad for some) that a human can easily have such a physical pleasure without much emotional involvement. And there's really no rational reason to prevent this.
My roommate (the religious one) says that people want to do many things, but it doesn't mean they should be allowed to. Meaning that the money that is involved in this business only tells of the corruption of the human soul and should not be fed any further, but cured instead. So she wants to remove prostitution alltogether. I on the otherhand once again think that even though she might have a point, this view of hers is a tad bit conservative. It is not her choice to decide what other people can and cannot do. For if prostitution does not harm her (and it wouldn't if it was indeed safe, and didn't involve criminal activity), then she has no grounds to claim that it affects her life. And as such, it simply isn't her business. If people want to do it, it is their right to do so. This applies to all matters known to man, as long as they are not done at another's expense.
[ December 13, 2002, 14:20: Message edited by: Forashi ]
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 3:32pm
hehehe. awww. Sometimes, when we are drunk shralp calls me 'his little prostitute'.
I think the whole idea of prostitution is wrong. But it won't be solved by arresting the men and women involved on the front line. They often do it as a way to live.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 4:24pm
Hey, where are all the girls in this topic?
I am all for education initiatives to take women out of this line of work if they aren't there by choice, initiatives to end the "human smuggling" that so often leads to slavery-type brothels, and combating the addictions that render even the most intelligent and educated of women unable to pursue other careers. But these are all anti-poverty measures, they aren't directly related to prostitution. Yes, the desperate and impoverished often turn to prosititution because it is all they are qualified to do. That doesn't necessarily mean that prostitution causes desperation and impoverishment, or that it is something you wouldn't ever do if you had the choice. I have known a number of women in Canada and Monaco who chose it as a career or part-time job (it is legal in Canada so college students often work part-time for escort agencies to supplement student loans) and most of them talked about their work with cheerfulness or sometimes outright glee. Women have always done dirty jobs and I don't see why prostititution is any different. Frankly, if I had a choice between making $10/hr as a nurse emptying bedpans and $200/hr having sex with strangers, I wouldn't even hesitate.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 4:37pm
Legitimizing prostitution as a career choice? Under the ideal conditions Forashi describes, I'd be all for it, too. However, what would happen if the same corporate greed that created the summer's scandals invaded this Eden? We'd be right where we are now, except that the pimps would be wearing Hugo Boss instead of Fubu.
Until prostitution is legal, I'm all for arresting the johns as well as the hookers. Around here, all the names of the men (and one woman, btw) arrested for soliciting in a recent sting were published in the paper. Talk about a scarlet letter!
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 5:22pm
I can’t believe that the majority of you think that prostitution is ok. In my book this is a moral issue and I am of the opinion that it is morally wrong. Notwithstanding the moral issues there are more cons than pros. Talk about a bad work environment. Very few jobs have more hazards involved. V D’s which are most times deadly. Physical abuse is very typical in that line of work. Yes, they do get paid well, but to legalize it would be a grave mistake.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 6:06pm
Sprite, out of curiousity, is prostitution legal in Canada. I thought I had seen a special where it stated prostitution was illegal but the law chooses to look the other way and not enforce the laws. If this is the case, then it is illegal and not enforced meaning there is no registration etc. like I talked about. Maybe this has changed though. The special was about prostitution and focused on some of the border citites in the U.S. and Canada.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 9:45pm
Well, i know one thing for sure...visiting a prostitute every once in a while is a hell of a lot cheaper than being married. :D
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 9:50pm
I'll agree with that Pac man. :D I don't think that marriage is supposed to be about money. It ought to be imho about love and friendship. That is definitely not what prostitution is about that fits more in the lust category.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 9:57pm
Prostitution as a career choice? That would be difficult in careers assemblys.
I don't think it's right, yes it may be successful for some people, some may actually enjoy their proffession - if it could be called that. But I don't neccessarily agree
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 11:09pm
I'm not sure how it works in other countries, but in Holland the "legal" prostitutes pay taxes over their income. So in a way, our government is the pimp here.
Fri, 13th Dec '02, 11:30pm
Laches, as far as I know you are right about the legality issue. While things may be different in whichever province Sprite lives in, prostitution is illegal here in Quebec. Nevertheless, the police tend to look the other way, especially where escort agencies are concerned.
Further, while your first argument gave me pause and much to think about, I feel it a bit of a stretch to imply that legalised prostitution is tantamount to the state sanctioning the view that women are merely sex objects.
I have a friend who is a driver for one of these escort agencies and, much like Sprite has mentioned, a fair number of these girls do it simply as supplemental income. This is not to say this is always the case, to be certain, but nor is it always an act of desperation.
To clarify and expand upon my previous post, I am not suggesting we feel any pity for those who cannot "get any." Never that. I am merely stating that, like it or not, there is a demand for this service. As such, and again like it or not, this demand will inevitably lead to a supply. I see no way around this. Hence, we may as well strive to make the most of a bad situation.
I agree with you that legalising prostitution will not eliminate the black market for it. However, legalisation and regulation would likely provide both a safer and cleaner environment for those who choose to operate "by the book." The fact that it will not entirely correct the problem does not mean the effect will be nil, does not mean no effort should be made.
As for the taxes and medical costs, I guess I am looking at things from a Canadian perspective (I tend to do that, naturally) where they are more or less one and the same. Medical coverage is provided freely (or almost) by the government and the money is recuperated via income taxes.
In terms of being treated like second-class citizens, well, what can I say? First, that is likely already the case, so things will not get any worse. More importantly, and this may be somewhat naive and utopian of me, I am talking about more than mere legalisation, but rather an effort to reshape peoples' opinions about the whole thing. I see no need for this to be frowned upon and legalisation/regulation may - in time - lead more people to feel the same.
I will not go so far as to paint the portrait of the prostitute as an entrepreneur catering to a specific market niche, but I suppose even that argument could be made.
In terms of rape, as I mentioned in my initial post, any thoughts of there being any significant impact are admittedly a stretch. At the same time, if even one rape is prevented as a result, then it was a worthwhile effort.
Sat, 14th Dec '02, 2:15am
The way prostitution laws are set up in Canada is that having sex for money (in any province BTW Johnny- this section of the Criminal code makes for very interesting reading!) is in and of itself legal if you are of age. However- this is the tricky part- telling someone that you are available to have sex for money is against the law. This is actually quite a sensible approach because if anyone complains their neighbourhood has turned into a red light district, the police can do something about it immediately. The end result is that most prostitutes, not including the unfortunate but inevitable drug-addled ones, work freelance by posting ads in the newspaper. The police usually only intervene in this case if they hear that the prostitute is also selling drugs.
Currently, Winnipeg and some other poorer cities are having real trouble with prostitutes and their clients taking over residential neighbourhoods. This is the reason we are starting to see police crackdowns on adult prostitution again in those areas. It's not common elsewhere though. I lived on the biggest red-light strip in Canada - Jarvis Street, Toronto - for a summer and while I regularly saw my neighbours out making a living in very short skirts, I never once saw a cop.
Sat, 14th Dec '02, 3:18am
Another factor to consider when it comes to legalizing prostitution: if it is legalized a woman is conducting business. She will be subject to the full force of the laws which apply to businesses, meaning, that if a woman is a prostitute and a man or woman seeks her services she will have to justify refusal or be liable. For example, many nations have gender discrimination laws -- a prostitute may not wish to engage in sex with another woman but the laws may not (and in nations like Greece and Germany this really has happened) allow her to refuse. The same can be said if the woman does not wish to engage in sex with men or a certain race -- civil rights laws could kick in. Maybe she doesn't want to have sex with physically or mentally handicapped men -- laws about discrimination of the handicapped would kick in.
So, are we imagining not only legalizing prostitution but then making special exemptions excusing prostitutes from the civil rights laws that apply to every other business. That is the argument I'm seeing some make I think, that it is a business like any other. Or, are we going to force the prostitutes to comply with those laws and isn't that a government sponsored rape?
Why not just leave it illegal and change the way we enforce it?
Sat, 14th Dec '02, 8:42am
Laches, you are an incredibly well spoken individual with great insight and rationale: I enjoy your contributions here.
Some topics remind me of hornets nests, or some other pest of life which cannot be easily driven away.
All the legal issues which would arise if prostitution were legal:
I mean can a woman choose or not?
Can a woman choose her partner?
Shall she be forced not to discriminate against the elderly?
Would she be responsible for all the children she might bear? (Why not throw abortion on the pile!)
I don't know why, but I think sex is one of those things women have in their handbags.
Men want it, and women know it.
That's what that damn apple Eve gave Adam is really all about!
Back to topic, the reason I would lean toward legalization is that I believe women would be safer and sex would be healthier for all involved, including the spouses of johns.
Sat, 14th Dec '02, 3:54pm
I don't have much of an opinion on the legal aspects; if I was rewriting the criminal code from scratch murder, aggravated assault and robbery would be the only crimes but I recognise that the government is going to regulate every other detail of our lives so why not prostitution too?
My concern is with the attitude that prostitutes are failed or fallen women. Sometimes they are, and deserve help and pity. Sometimes they aren't. In either case they should be accorded the same respect and protection that the rest of society gets. It makes me so angry that every time a woman who works in the sex trade is murdered, she is referred to by her career only in the media. You never read of a man arrested for "killing a lawyer" but far too often you hear about "killing a prostitute", and they don't even bother mentioning her name or her surviving loved ones. I go to candlelight prayer services when a woman in my city is murdered, and the ones for women who worked as prostitutes are always small, lonely, unremarked affairs compared with, say, one for a female engineering student or even a woman given the death penalty on the other side of the world. It makes me almost as sad as the death- that because she was a "bad girl" her death earns so little outrage. Prostitutes are PEOPLE first. What they do for a living should not be considered the defining factor about their lives.
Sat, 14th Dec '02, 4:09pm
All I'm going to say about the aspects is that it's immoral. If someone wants to do it, we should let them. We have all heard the stories of prostitutes who have been murdered by sick people, or have gotten life threatening diseases. So if they still want to do it, they already know the risks.
Sat, 14th Dec '02, 8:39pm
Well Sprite, the thing is that if prostitution is leaglized it is a business. Business requires laws for the benefit of society. The government must enforce contracts or there would be chaos, so contract law. Now, since we aren't always as open minded as we should be, the government has decided that they need civil rights laws which apply to businesses, and if prostitution is a business.... We have laws to protect the physically and mentally handicapped that apply to businesses and if prostitution is a business....
In short, any anti-discrimination law that applies to business might well apply to prostitution as well. If you argue that these laws shouldn't apply to prostitution I have to ask why? Doesn't arguing that prostitution is a specialized situation and shouldn't be subject to to the full array of laws that every other business is subject to undermine the argument that prostitution should be considered a business?
For the record, I don't find prostitution to be immoral. I simply think that it is something that most (not all) women would probably rather not engage in if they had options elsewhere. I found a study done in Australia and according to it 60% of prostitutes there didn't finish high school and another 14% have no education beyond high school. To me, and maybe this is wrong, this suggests that the majority of women in Australia that are prostitutes are seeking money and don't have many other viable alternatives.
Maybe my experiences are different than others but I have a friend that runs a homeless shelter in Seattle and I've worked there and met a number of prostitutes that would seek refuge there. I've never known a woman who worked for a nicer escort service. From what I've seen of prostitution, it is not so much a freely made choice as it is a choice born of desperation. However, in the interest of fairness here is the site on the Australian study (quite in depth) and it has info that could be used on both sides of the debate:
I'd favor keeping it illegal and changing the manner in which it is enforced to target the Johns while focusing on providing alternatives.
Sat, 14th Dec '02, 9:27pm
Frankly, there are problems with the kind of laws you are talking about that far exceed any problems related to prostitution. In most "free" countries no private individual is forced to work for anyone else, regardless of whether he/she is a freelance writer (as I am), a plumber or a prostitute. Any country that has a law that says otherwise is in such flagrant violation of the principles of human liberty and civil rights, that it should be addressed pronto because it amounts to slavery.
Sat, 14th Dec '02, 9:42pm
The laws don't force anyone to work for anyone else. What they do say is that an employer can't discriminate when hiring on the basis of race, gender etc. They also say that if you have a business that is open to the public you can't discriminate on the basis of sex, race etc. They in no way shape or form say you have to go to work for anyone. In the case of prostitution, if it is a business, they would be conducting business in the public sphere making them subject to anti-discrimination laws like any other business. No one is saying anyone has to work for anyone or be a prostitute.
Sun, 15th Dec '02, 1:49am
If we are going to treat this as a legitimate business, then it must be governed by the same laws that apply to all other businesses. This includes refusing service to anyone in a discriminatory fashion (ie. based on gender, race, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.).
For the private entrepreneur running her (or his, I suppose) own show, this may well create some uncomfortable situations. Make sure you know what you're getting into before diving in with both feet, I guess.
Of course we cannot make exceptions to these rules for one business or another, but there are always arrangements that can be made. Take, for example, a newly legalised brothel. The brothel itself cannot turn away a customer for discriminatory reasons but it may make arrangements internally to circumvent this. Say Prostitute A does not like people of type X. If a person of type X requests the service of Bella's Best Brothel, Inc., the business can easily offer the services of Prostitutes B, C, or D. The morality of this may be suspect, but I believe it would be legal.
Sun, 15th Dec '02, 9:47pm
The most important question is (IMHO): do people want to be a prostitute? I think (can't base it on facts) that most if not all women (and men) in this 'business' don't really (deep in their harts) want to be in it.
Next to this I think it is quite revolting and the most anti-feminist profession there is. Women (because most prostitutes are women) become beef. Pretty flesh and nothing more.
Mon, 16th Dec '02, 4:40pm
The most important question is (IMHO): do people want to be a prostitute? I think (can't base it on facts) that most if not all women (and men) in this 'business' don't really (deep in their harts) want to be in it. So now other people have to choose their future profession??
Mon, 16th Dec '02, 5:25pm
sorry my previous post was a bit off topic. But it is relevant in that the question should not be whether or not prostitution should be allowed officially or not. The issue should be that people are urged to not frequent a prostitute. What I mean is: it doesn't matter what we say about the subject, unless we try to change mankind's view on these matters.
the important thing is that people should realize that it makes sex less great if you do it with lots of different people (be it prostitutes or free one-night stands).
Mon, 16th Dec '02, 7:54pm
I agree with Aergron prostitution is anti feminist for the very reasons he expressed. I get so sick of women as meat.
Pac-man you crack me up: 'sure is cheaper than marriage..' LOL
Tue, 17th Dec '02, 8:27am
Prostitution may be anti-feministic, but it still is the choise of the individual. Well usually not much of a choice (or actually it still is quite often enough, only people who make those choices are somehow emotionally disturbed or don't see their other options for other reasons), but still. Prostitution as it is, has nothing to do with any sort of feminism. It's simply a matter of human rights.
I know, stating out the obvious here. But no woman should be denied the right to do prostitution on the basis of that it "makes other women look bad". Kinda funny way to put it I know. Still, denial of prostitution because of the protection of the individual is a whole other matter. An acceptable one.
Wed, 18th Dec '02, 3:13am
It is a FREE country after all(America that is) and it is legal in Nevada, but, sometimes people start prostitution and try to stop but get bullied or strong-armed into staying. But, every idea has a bad and good side. I love this forum. Mwa ha ha ha.
Fri, 20th Dec '02, 2:23am
Laches's first post definitely has a point. The reason that prostitution tends to be illegal is because of all the negative aspects that come with it. In a small town near my home, strip clubs were just outlawed for the same reasons. The same goes for drug abuse.
I don't think the argument here should be whether the people involved "enjoy" their line of work should be a consideration in whether or not prostitution should be legalized.
It is definitely immoral to be selling sex for money, but the government should not legislate morality unless it affects many other people. In this case, it does. Laches explained that very well already, so there is no point in reiterating.
Either way, if you want to make all the laws that apply to public business also apply to prostitution, then wouldn't that also include age discrimination? In that case, we could have a 13 year old kid hiring the services of the local brothel. I'm sure we'd all agree that that is entirely unacceptable. If we require that the services only apply to adults, though, then the brothels can begin to discriminate on other facets as well.
Next to this I think it is quite revolting and the most anti-feminist profession there is. Women (because most prostitutes are women) become beef. Pretty flesh and nothing more.Pretty much. But then, I have known women whose dream job was to be an exotic dancer. Isn't that the same thing from this standpoint?
As was said before, there is a demand for it, so suppliers will arrive. It's simple economic theory. At least by having it legalized, it may be possible to eliminate some of the other side-effects of the occupation.
Fri, 20th Dec '02, 9:01pm
Laches, I think Sprite has a point about contract work. It's my understanding that contractors are free to accept or reject a contract offer as they see fit -- in fact, in most types of contract work, the contractor has to apply for a contract, not the other way around. It seems a similar legal arrangement would work for prostitutes, without forcing them to have sex with a paraplegic.
This should in no way be taken to be support for legalization; I'm morally opposed.
Fri, 20th Dec '02, 9:34pm
I don't think a contractor or sub-contractor is the best analogy. However, I do know that contractors and sub-contractors are subject to the same civil rights laws as any other business, there have been some huge cases in North Carolina and Virginia with regards to racial discrimination in these fields. They are free to pick who they wish as a subcontractor but race, gender etc isn't allowed to enter into the decision process (race is protected more than gender and handicap.) If it is shown that these illegitimate considerations entered into the decision, look out, huge problems like in Virginia and North Carolina.
So, if you want to use the contractor analogy, the woman makes it known that she is taking offers, accepting bids, etc. She then receives bids, offers etc. She is free to refuse a bid but like a contractor she is bound by civil rights laws etc that won't allow here to refuse a bid because of certain reasons -- such as race, gender, handicap etc.
JohnnyRTFM's point about brothels more easily circumvents the problem I'd think -- a brothel would recruit women willing to accept certain clients etc.
Fhirn the Elven Archer
Sat, 4th Jan '03, 12:10am
I too see nothing wrong with prostitution - I mean, have sex and get paid for it! Who wouldn't want a job like that?!
Except of course the cases in which a women is a prostitute by force or is forced to a sexual relationship with someone she doesn't want to have sex with.
Sat, 4th Jan '03, 5:52am
I mean, have sex and get paid for it! Who wouldn't want a job like that?!Oh, I don't know... maybe 99.9% of the world?
Sat, 4th Jan '03, 6:58am
It's not our choice anyway, it should be the choice of the individual on what they want to do with their bodies and not of the masses. You can not force someone to confirm to your views on something since people will always and always have found ways around laws. At least if you legalize it other people can keep an eye on it but it can never be permanently removed. They tried the same thing with alcahol and it failed miserably.
Sat, 4th Jan '03, 1:22pm
To remove prostitution you must remove the demand
So the only, "good" working solution is castrate every men in a global wide operation named B.B.B. (Bye Bye Balls). *ouch*
Sat, 4th Jan '03, 6:17pm
But there are plenty of negative things involved with prostitution that the government should be regulating. Abuse, child sexual slavery, drugs, and STIs all fit in that category.
(Goodness, replying to my own question! :o )
Wed, 8th Jan '03, 1:12pm
@Laches: Gender, you say? Does it mean that for example a female hetero prostitute is not allowed to reject a female homo client? Such a rule is worse than prostitution itself on the part of those who impose it, in my humble opinion.
This is the oldest job in the world however immoral it is, and removing it is literally impossible. St.Augustine, who was very strict in the matters of body, said we shouldn't force them to leave the job because now decent women would then pick it.
We may of course divagate about prostitution in our civilised and orderly countries, but what about places where body is sort of coin? Where no skills count except for fighting skills. Where sex is being treated like our handshake & glass of whisky to validate a contract socially... Or the specific kind of courtesy that demands the host to give his daughter or sister or wife even to the guest(s) for the nights he/they is/are spending in his house. Or UN workers favourising certain families on similar basis? It was called sexual harassment as far as I know. As for me this is a kind of rape. In case of rape our good king Boleslaus the Brave (992-1025) ordered the man nailed to the block by what was most precious to him and a knife given to him together with the dramatic choice.