Recently, PA governor Mark Schweiker approved a bill requiring all students in public school to say the pledge to the flag every morning.

This seems to me to go against certain moral convictions and beliefs that some people hold. While the only penalty for violation is a call to the parents, it still should not be required, but voluntary as it has always been.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Initially, I have First Amendment problems with this. However, students do not have anything close to the same First Amendment rights as adults (or other rights for that matter). They are subject to censorship in school newspapers, productions and the like and are also subject to locker searches and pat-downs in our wonderfully safe public schools.

Is the pledge that they are required to say the one with "under God"? Here in California, we're having quite a bit of fun with a lawsuit filed by a parent concerning his kid's rights with regard to religion in school because of the "under God" language, so expect that challenge to this bill as well.

Realistically, I have no problem with it because I don't think it does any harm. It's going to spin some significant issues and arguments, though. It's funny though, because when I was a kid in elementary school some 25-30 years ago, I remember that I asked the teacher why we said the pledge every day -- I thought it expired and had to be renewed every day. She had no reasonable explanation for me then and I am interested to hear what the explanation is here. Shouldn't the pledge at the beginning of the school year last for the whole term? Maybe a semester or quarter even. Why every bloody day? Maybe some people do forget it.

Thats not really a law that can be inforced since the suprime court rulled that "under god" is not a requriment to say. It was really big over the summer if I remember right.

This is the same deal as the 'moment of silence' deal they had going on when I was still in school. (Did they ever get rid of that? Someone give me the low-down...) You're basically telling someone that they have to do something and there's going to be people who don't like it. Personally, forcing someone to say the pledge bugs me because it's a force issue--I think it should be your right to one way or the other. Of course, then you get into the reasoning behind why someone doesn't want to, but that's another issue.

Dragon, the U.S. Supreme Court didn't make that ruling. I'm working from memory here and dmc can call me on it if I'm wrong but I believe it was the 9th Circuit which includes California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Alaska, Hawaii, and.... not sure, maybe Idaho? I'm sure it was the 9th Circuit and that it includes Cal, Wash etc. but not sure I remembered them all and not sure about Idaho.

Anyways, the 9th Circuit stated there were 1st Amendment problems with the phrase "under God" (and there are probably from a strict legal sense) but that will likely be overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court -- I would be stunned if it was upheld by the current court. Oh, and just an FYI for anyone who wants to insert a liberal court comment here regarding the 9th Circuit, the 9th hears a larger number of cases than anyone and has a lower % (but higher number) of cases overturned than at least most of the jurisdictions (it used to be all but no longer sure about this.)

As for the pledge requirement, I think it likely will be found unconstitutional if challenged, eventually anyways. A similar bill was debated by Tennessee and Gov. Ventura vetoed a similar bill (god bless that man, maybe not who I'd want for gov. but at least he doesn't mind making his stands now and then.) I agree with dmc wholeheartedly that students don't have the full array of rights that adults do but I'd challenge it on the basis of interfering with a parent's rights to raise her child as she wishes absent of undue interference by the government -- something the courts have strongly endorsed -- along with challenging it on the basis of abridging the rights of the individual students.

It's a nice political ploy though I suppose. You can say, "look at me, aren't I a good patriot. All of those who disagree must be pinko-commy bastards." With regards to the 9th Circuits decision Robert Byrd actually said:

I'm not going to let my country be ruled by a bunch of atheists That quote is scary in some ways but I still can't help but giggle when I see it.

Here is a link which can take you to the Newdow decision if you're interested. I'd urge you to read it before dismissing the court out of hand. It's a personal page but the link is at the bottom, not sure if I can link directly:
http://www.theelsewhere.com/relevant/06252002pledge.htm

actually, the [law] does NOT require kids to say the pledge-trying to avoid lawsuits there. It DOES, however, require a kid's parents to be called if they don't say the pledge. Kinda sounds like coercion to me...

say the pledge or I'll call your mom! :D

course, if I was a parent and I got a call like that, I'd respond, "**** off and place me on your 'don't call' list" :)

[ December 13, 2002, 04:54: Message edited by: AMaster ]

Remind me here what this flag pledge means please, Is this like that thing all those americans do by putting their hands over their heart??

I don't understand the whole concept as i'm not american.

Sounds to me like maybe people are forgetting what its all about so by making them say it everyday it forces them to remember. Like trying to institutionalize people to all have the same mind-set. Almost dictating to them a certain moral or something.

What i'm trying to say sounds right in my head but i can't quite express it in words (they have never been my strong point). Plus, i don't really know what the whole thing is about (as i said before) so i'm just trying to blag it. :p

It sounds a bit like brain washing to me. Maybe it's a conspiracy by Bush's little people in the white house to have a nation who actually believe he's not stupid :D .
Seriously though, what about those people who wouldn't want to? Anyone who would question how great America is and is it morally right? Yep, conspiracy, brain washing. Ah well, just my early morning thinking. :p

Pardon me if this seems like propaganda, but here's the text of the pledge that has people so up-in-arms:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation [under God], with liberty and justice for all."

I put the "under God" part in brackets because that was added in the tumultuous days of McCarthy/Eisenhower, and wasn't part of the original pledge at all.

Note that there's nothing in the pledge about supporting the positions of any administration, or the right to choose, or second-hand smoke, or gun restrictions. It just says that you support the idea of America as a republic where there's "liberty and justice for all."

Whether or not that's what we have here, or the best way of reaching that lofty goal, are topics for another debate.

I think that the americans shouldn't take their patriotism that far. If I had to sing the "wilhelmina" (dutch anthom) or any other 'pledge' I would probably move.

Brainwashing is indeed the right word.

:hahaerr: Oh dear, we've went and done it again haven't we?
Ok, perhaps I should illustrate what I am trying to say a bit better for those who can't actually understand it.
Forcing someone to pledge allegance to anything, or anyone is bad. If people want to love their country good on them. If someone is forced to love their country every morning in school that is bad. My joke about propaganda etc was to illustrate the brain washing effect that seems to be the only obvious goal of this excercise, my example being to make people think BigBagJawajDubyaa isn't an incompetent ivy league wuss with something to prove to daddy.
Any offence from what I've said I hope makes people sit and think about it for a bit before posting a flame. If you feel the need to flame me, email it with the subject flame so I know it's for the bin ;)
One last thing:
:borg:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation [under God], with liberty and justice for all."

I put the "under God" part in brackets because that was added in the tumultuous days of McCarthy/Eisenhower, and wasn't part of the original pledge at all.

Note that there's nothing in the pledge about supporting the positions of any administration, or the right to choose, or second-hand smoke, or gun restrictions. It just says that you support the idea of America as a republic where there's "liberty and justice for all."Actually, you are missing something from the Pledge there. Ironically, after "one nation [under God]" comes "indivisable." :rolleyes:

Hmm. And what if I am a Jehovah's Witness? I believe that means I have to pledge allegiance to a "graven image", which, hypothetically, be against my religion.

Ummm, how about the other religeons as well? That point should spark a whole load of new 'patriotic' flames.
/me sits back with a drink to watch the board burn ;)

hint:
:borg:

Agreed. Resistance is futile.

This is a serious question: Do most Americans know they *ever* had the right to decline to say the pledge? I went to an American school for two years when I was quite young, and part of my generally horrific orientation to that school was being told I had to learn the pledge immediately, the first day I was there, and recite it every morning because "not being an American is no excuse for being so ignorant!" as one teacher said just about every time he spoke to me. Maybe I just went to a really bad school where all the teachers were unusually disrespectful of civil rights, but it seems to me more likely that the teachers really didn't know any better, and these were very well-educated Americans.

I have never understood the reason of such a pledge, I as many other europeans see many similiarities with brainwash. And it isnt voluntarily no matter what the rules say, imagine the peer pressure and social stigma related to not saying the pledge? Sure it is not forbidden to go to school in a pink pig costume but I dont think many kids would want to. The citizens of a democratic nation should be brought up to critically evalutate their goverment and nation and not to glorify it every morning since they are five without any question. It may be effective, look at how popular Saddam is in Iraq even though he treats his people like garbage a majority even after you have taken away his threats and manipulation think he is the best thing that has ever happened to that nation.
I know that the pledge is to the nation and not the to the goverment and state but try to distinguish those two to a little kid.

I did not know about that, and I live in Pa! Hah. Oh well, it is a FREE country. I do not think most will enforce it. Anyways, even if you do not say it, it is a courtesy to those around you to stand, although Jehovah's witnesses do no such thing. I say because I love my country. And actually, school newspaper censorship should be legal as citizens of this country we are afforded all the rights the constitution has to offer!!! God, do I hate my nazi school admin.'s. Such damn nazi's. Anyways, if I think my teacher sucks, and I can put into formal type(no swear words etc.) and give reasons, than by cracky, I will. The Constitution is the law of the land. Nothing beat the Constitution, it IS the trump card.

[ December 18, 2002, 03:20: Message edited by: Jorgon ]

Actually, the censorship of student literature is an entirely different matter.

You are correct in that it will likely not be enforced, and it was buried in the local section of my paper, so very few people probably will even know about it.

The only penalty is calling the parents, so unless the kid is radically different than the parents, they won't really care.

I see some similarities to what we have in Poland. It's hard not to cease being a patriot if the patriotism is being enforced and mostly by people who are not that able to operate on complex conspects. Needless to say, it's either a brainless or instrumental use in 99% of cases. I'm not going to feel less patriotic for not falling for 19th century patriotic verses full of fire more than art, by the way. And I'm not going to add 'so help me God' after any promise or pledge some self-appraising authority invents to flatter their self-appreciation by (ab)using His name. As for enforced pledges themselves, I remember standing in first ranks in complete silence when the countless parts of a pledge were read and repeated and finally coughing in a special fashion when they got to 'we vow' to dispel any possible doubts. Ah, and one more thing is sure: I would never say the pledge you are speaking of if I were a non-American in some situation of the kind.

[ January 03, 2003, 03:24: Message edited by: chevalier des Trois-Tours ]