a mail delivered to my
inbox:
If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11, please observe a moment of silence for the 5,000 civilian lives lost in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks. While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush, Sr. Take another moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the streets.

Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by troupes supported and trained by the CIA.

Plus 10 minutes of silence for 300,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.

We've just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims throughout the world.

If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to admit. The US went to another continent thousands of miles away and burnt tens of thousands of Vietnamese peasants with napalm.

Or for the massacre in Panama in 1989, where American troops attacked poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands more dead.

Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.

Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by US-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador to name a few).

Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember t he USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was there even any retaliation?

We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their vulnerability and the attacks and other tragedies that they have caused around the world.

The dead in other places hurt as much as the dead of the Towers, maybe even more!

What about the 560,000 Iraqi children (as per current UN data) who have died as a direct cause of the US supported sanctions against Iraq? Are these the children of a lesser God?

What about a new generation of nearly one million Iraqi children who are currently having their lives being ruined by improper nutrition, lack of medicine and inferior education because of US supported sanctions.

Now, let's talk about terrorism, shall we?

[ September 18, 2002, 18:49: Message edited by: vonGriffin ]

And a moment of silence for those who are acting as smartasses.

What on earth is your message other than just mocking US? Is war terrorism or is terrorism war? When is war necessary, and what is the greater good? If you put up a thread like this be prepared to be prepared.

WTF!?!?!? America were still thrashed in that war, there's no need to bring up about killing civilians. I have an American Airbourne flag hanging in my room. It says "Kiil em all, let god sort em out. (Just thought i'd say that i'm not poking fun of Airbourne, just saying it's from VietNam

Methinks you just tried to bring up yet another America bashing argument and try to get us all to start aguing. For once we were all not arguing and now you're trying to provoke us all again. What a stupid thing to do you whiney mainland idiot.

[You know better than include personal insults in your posts, please refain from doing so in the future - BTA]

[ September 18, 2002, 19:25: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

Always so one-sided. Like the litany of deaths caused by other nations are non-existant.

These two are my favorite:
Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by troupes supported and trained by the CIA.The US didn't directly cause any deaths here, but we sure were responsible! :rolleyes:

I also like how the sanctions on Iraq are only US supported, nobody else supprts them eh? And also the failure to note sanctions would be dropped as soon as Iraq complies with UN resolutions.

This is not from me, just from my mailbox

whiney mainland idiot why, thanks I`m sure NOT on your high level

[ September 18, 2002, 19:23: Message edited by: vonGriffin ]

No no no! It is from you. Yoda keeps yelling at you. Revealed your opinion is.

No one forced you to post it, right? Responsibility. Mark that concept. And it was you who started. Not Z-Layrex. You can't piss on someone and expect them to be happy about that.

[ September 18, 2002, 19:27: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

I did`t say: "I entirely agree with this mail"

What are you? a kind of über dork? :mad:

You wouldn't post it if you didn't agree with it! :mad: We will NOT bow to you and start having another fight over whether America's evil or not, let it go. :toofar:

I guess we're missing a point here.

Guess who benefits from war?... Politicians and industrial tycoons.

Politicians certainly raise their popularity when "going tough against the enemy" and tycoons don't have to worry about strikes, deal with few taxes and prepare a lot of the supplies "while it lasts".

So, in the end... Who likes war? You the poor infantry man sent to a cetein death, the lone sniper behind the enemy lines, waiting to be ambushed, the marines waiting in red alert for years... Or the politician and tycoon that "support" our troops and raise their "morale"... while "meditating and counseling" in a villa full of wine, food, hot chiks and lots of money without to even raise a finger to eat a grape.

Guess who wins?

And in the end?... Your war "for life" pension, your medal and no employment due to injuries or poor mental health?... After all you were the hero of the day.

Your "profits" from supplies which allow you to buy another mansion in another country, to own a bank, or to gain more chicks?... After all you "provided" the heroes.

Guess who likes it more?

It's not about America vs. Irak or Justice vs. Terrorism... It's about who profits most in the end.

It's threads like this one that make me wonder why I venture into Whatnots at all. It is becoming a dumping ground of rhetoric and personal insults.
I have tried to encourage open, honest discussion when I reply to some slam on my country, but I realize that it is pointless. It is obvious to me that many of the folks posting this stuff don't want to actually discuss anything. They just want to take a cheap shot and walk away. It happens time and again.

Jack Funk (and others).

Give the guy a break. He said, in the original message, as well as in followups, that it wasn't HIS writing; he just forwarded it.


And by the way, I agree that it wasn't a good idea. Forgot to add that, thanks Slim for reminding me.


And the 'personal insult' actually came from Z, who called him 'a whiney _mainland_ idiot' (as opposed to a whiney _island_ idiot, I suppose). What's with the British ultra-nationalism anyway? I have never heard that 'mainland' thing before.

Also, Jack, I do believe you are familiar with the concept of 'freedom of speech'? You seem so infuriated that everyone is 'bashing' the US...did you stop for a moment to think that there is a REASON why this is happening (i.e. why so many people from all over the world, even from INSIDE the US, are criticizing, or 'bashing' the current administration)? Maybe it is because they are doing something that is not very 'right', although it is quite 'right'? (bad pun, I know).

-thanos

[ September 18, 2002, 22:40: Message edited by: Thanos ]

Oh, great!

I think I'll dump every piece of **** mail I get into Whatnots, most of it is on par with this crap...

[ September 19, 2002, 02:16: Message edited by: SlimShogun ]

@ Slim:

Well, everyone has a right to express an opinion. And the only ones that can do something about it are Tal, Ext and BTA so far.

If you think it's not worth mentioning you also have a right to say so. And that's the point, everyone has a right to reply or post unless our Admins and Mods think not.

Me, I think war depends if you're the general or the soldier; but ultimately worthless attempt to domain brings another attempt to do so from the loser's ashes.

What do you think Slim?

Let's have a moment of silence for all the retards who fail to recognize violence, greed and lust for power as fundamental aspects of human nature.

Thanos.

Honestly some people just want to nag. For instance if Saddam really has biochemical weapons and Bush actually prevents the deaths of many million Americans, there are always a bunch of people who would say that Bush forced Saddam into producing those weapons. In truth Bush, or anyone else in power doesn't really stand a chance to those who use their freedom of speech to, freedom of lynching. The freedom of speech should be changed to freedom of coherent arguments, agreed?

Take VonGriffin, he makes a direct insult at americans and won't take any responsibility. Yet no one forced him to post that junk.
Lets see how he would react if I wrote a whole bunch of bad things about Slovenia. Spitting on them and their pride and nationality. If VonGriffin got sad and upset and yelled at me, I would just imply he is a prick.

vonGriffin isn't as innocent as mother Theresa. He shouldn't have a break untill he understands what he is doing wrong. Or he could start backing the claims he posts. Period.

Nobleman:

Ah, but that's the 'fundamental flaw' of democracy: the fact that EVERYONE is allowed a chance to speak up, no matter how absurd it sounds. Sure, some people will say that. But let's take the other extreme: Let's pretend for a moment that Bush actually takes Saddam on his offer and inspectors are back in, and they find nothing. Aren't there people that will say that inspectors were being played/payed by Saddam, were anti-american European 'mainlanders' (to use Z's expression, that one really cracked me up), or Arab sympathizers, anti-Semetic fanatics or whatever else?

But that's freedom of speech for you. The underlying assumptions are that:
-you get to hear ALL sides of the story, no matter how absurd they might seem to you
-you make an intelligent PERSONAL decision on which side is right, based on which side you believe is right.

In the end, freedom of speech, even with naggers and all, is much better than the alternative. After all, isn't lack of that one of the reasons that 'arabs hate america' ?

-thanos

clever.

You have made me speechless. (no pun intended :1eye: )

Fine. Have it your way.

Shadowhunter, my *opinion* is that you're a [snip] and that you also probably have no friends and a TON of back hair.

You wanna play this game, child? I can play, too.

[I noticed this too late... People, if you see anything against the rules that isn't dealt with promptly, PM me!] -Tal

[ September 19, 2002, 21:24: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

@ Slim:

See, that's the point; you have the right to say anything that suits you...

And answering you hasn't the slightest interest since I don't give a **** what you or any other human being thinks of me or has to say about me.

BTW watch your sharp tounge there "fellow" it may cut your own neck faster than you can imagine and it will be your fault only if you get yourself into trouble for it.

I didn't get that about the black hair? :confused:

Re: USA the best = offensive?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is this arrogant, imflammatory bull****?

Yep, the world is more than the US, but the facts remain that a) the US of A is the most powerful country in the world (right now) and b) pretty much everything in the world revolves around us (world economy, "peacekeeping," humanitarian aid, etc).

Hmmm let's see, i think to other countries this translates more into a) big bullies who push everybody else around in the name of our "foreign interests" and b) stick our noses into everyone else's business and strut around acting like the world's police force


Normally I'm not into rah-rah chest beating and blatant flag waving, but all the people in the world who hate the US just because we are the most powerful country really irratate me.

No they hate us because of arrogant "i'm better than all you because i'm an American" attitudes like the one you so proudly display.

I mean, of all the nerve the UN is demanding that we consult with them before taking military action anywhere.

OMG the United Nations wants to be consulted before we sic our military on somebody? Where do they get off huh? Guess someone forgot to send them the "we own the world, so STFU" memo.

Then when we get attacked, the UN and all the morally indignent countries in Europe turn up their noses and parade around speaking of restraint, asking permission, more resolutions, etc...

Gee i don't remember it like that at all, i recall the European community reacting with horror and outrage to the WTC incident. I recall support for our military campaign in Afghanistan, even though the vast majority of Afghans had nothing to do with the terrorism, in the name of finding and punishing Osama Bin'Laden. Which we failed to do btw.

I have news for you: You cannot pass a resolution to stop terrrorism. I highly doubt Al Qeda is going to honor some silly piece of paper concocted by the UN. You cannot pass a resolution to prevent tyranical dictators from obtaining and using weapons of mass-murder. You cannot pass a resolution to make the Palestinians and Israelis get along.

No **** Sherlock. Neither can you accomplish these things by waving old glory at them. And taking military action won't solve these problems either. We've already tried to hunt down Bin'Laden, didn't work eh? Tried to muscle Saddam Hussein into doing what we wanted, only made him more stubbornly opposed to us AND ended up pushing a lot of people into supporting him who hadn't before. And exactly how do you propose that the US force Israel and Palestine to play nice nice, hmm? Shake a missle at them? Now you two behave or we'll nuke you! Right.

The point is yes: United States of America is the most powerful country in the world. At almost every point in history there has been a clear-cut most powerful country, it's a fact of life.

And at every point in history, said country has FALLEN, and usually due to their own belief in their infallability, such as what you display.

Now you can choose to recognize this fact and just accepted when someone points this out, or you can get all upset that your country's figurative "rod" doesn't measure up and make "I'm offended" posts on Internet message boards every time your country is not listed as the "best."

Gee you seem to be awful offended that someone implies that your country might not be the "best," think maybe that might piss off someone from another country too?

In closing, stop spouting this drivel and take one ****ing second to put yourself in another person's shoes. Yes, America is a great place in many ways, and i am glad to live here and i am glad to be a citizen, but there is no need to try to compare penis sizes with the rest of the world, ok? It only perpetuates the stereotype that all Americans are spoiled, whiney, self-centered, uneducated, intolerant *******s.

[ September 19, 2002, 10:43: Message edited by: vonGriffin ]

He said "back" not "black". Most people don't mind black hair, but back hair is another story.

I think scarampella said it... Human nature is not a pretty thing. We'll always fight. There will always be terrorism and war. We rule the world because we killed everything that stood in our way. I'm not referring to a nation, I'm referring to our race. Even today, when we know full well how much destruction we bring, we continue to bring it about.

I don't know who is "right" and who is "wrong" in the America / whoever vs Iraq conflict. Every time someone puts forward a point for one side, there's a point from the other. Our media is bound to report that which favours our allies. How can anyone really know? Is there truly any such thing as right or wrong? Or just how it affects our goals? Doesn't it stand to reason that people with different goals will have different values?

One thing that really gets to me is the definition of war / violence. I think of violence as "inflicting physical abuse upon someone". How is starving someone through sanctions not violence? The economic disruption involved with the times around wars seem to kill far more people than the actual fighting does. Sanctions are never viewed as seriouly as bombings, but they kill more people. US sanctions have been mentioned here, but I'm not picking on them in particular... sactions operate on both sides, I'm sure. However, I will say this: my country was very happy we could still sell grain to Iraq. Do you think we cared more about the Iraqies we'd be feeding, or the extra coins in our pockets?

We're ok with the fact that some half-starved child in a far-away land makes our shoes, because it means we only have to work for 2 hours to pay for them. We all say we're not, but we all keep buying those shoes.

In my opinion, life in general is treated too cheaply.

What is this, a bloody mass flame. Get over it. I refuse to offer any oppinio in this case as this is just flaming and no real debate at all.

Don't diss vonGriffin, it is only from his mailbox and if i posted all the sh*t I get in my mailbox then i'd take up all the whatnots space.

That isn't true. The whole thread isn't one big flame - there are non-personal bits in there (if you look hard enough). Read the whole post.

I think it is important for various opinions to be voiced. You've got to keep an open mind. This doesn't mean you can't have an opinion, you've just got to keep considering all the facts as they come.

There are quite a number of personal attacks in this thread, though. I'm surprised more warnings haven't been issued.

I'm also surprised people get so worked up about their countries. My beliefs aren't always accurately represented by the actions of my country as a whole. As such, I don't take an attack on my country's stance as an attack against me.

I never understand how people think name-calling is a valuable contribution to a discussion, though. When you think about it, insults are just chains of pointless information (the more profane, the less meaning you'll find in them). Are people simply trying to shout so much they can't hear other people?

First of all, I copy&paste all the writtings...

My point was only to see your opinions,,and yes majority of this is trash

[ September 19, 2002, 11:07: Message edited by: vonGriffin ]

I did read all of it, it seems that everyone has gone all out insult, shadowhunter is the ignored voice of reason and vonGriffon is despartatly trying to defend himself against the flames.
This thread has turned into a flame war with a few good points that have been discussed elseware.

Aikanaro.
Why is Shadowhunter ignored? He just shared an opinion. Thats all. I take it you feel he's ignored since you only read his post just now? A problem with forums is that you can't see people nodding. But that doesn't mean they don't nod, aye?

Anyway VonGriffin desperately defendig against the flames? What gave you that idea. As far as I see he has only been called one name, which has even been removed. The rest started just as a discussion of principles and now in the end of USA. Agreed? Call it heat if you want. But flame? *bleh*

[ September 19, 2002, 14:46: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

:D This thread is surprisingly busy for a moment of silence :shake:

@Thanos:

Where did I say I was infuriated? Frustrated, yes. Infuriated, no. I have real issues (child, mortgage, pregnant wife) in my life and do not have the energy to get infuriated over the postings here.
I never accused von griffin of personal insults. I merely observed that the thread was littered with them.

About freedom of speech. Yes I am familiar with the concept. Where in my post did I attempt to suppress speech? I merely stated that I don't know why Whatnots has become full of USA bashing and insults.

Last, I explained my frustration. I would like to understand why people feel the way they do. I would like to have discussions where people are not throwing around figures that they cannot provide sources or proof of.

In other words, I would like to discuss these topics, but let's base the discussion in reality. Let's try to have a dialog where we can exchange facts, opinions and ideas without making personal slams.

That is what I would like. To reword what I stated in my original post, I am not getting (nor am I going to get) what I want. Most of the people posting are not interested in facts, dialog, or an intelligent exchange of ideas.

If I was not clear (it appears crystal clear to me rereading my original post), then I apologize.

[ September 19, 2002, 16:09: Message edited by: Jack Funk ]

You see!??? Already this thread has upset alot of people! :flaming: :bang:

Oh BACK hair? Hehe don't I feel silly now :1eye: Just shows you how carefully I read stuff :D

Anyway, although I don't think the grilling you're currently giving him is absolutley necessary I wonder what possessed vonGriffin to post this? Although there is one interesting point:

What about a new generation of nearly one million Iraqi children who are currently having their lives being ruined by improper nutrition, lack of medicine and inferior education because of US supported sanctions.
I don't think that the US sanctions are the main reason for this. In fact I recognise this - it is actually what Slobodan Milosevic blamed all of Yugoslavia's troubles on (unjust and unprovoked sanctions - as his 'family' liked to call it). Now the same excuse is used to indoctrinate young Iraqis and make them into hateful revenge-prone fanatics (it sure worked on a large number of people here). Clearly the situation needs to be resolved - but not quite sure that bombing the hell out of Iraq is the answer.

Loyal boardmembers, you misunderstood me.

Shadowhunter declared that we were all fit to have our own opinions. While I agree, having my own opinion does NOT constitute posting bullplop on SP. All I was doing was showing why felt it was wrong that a random, foolish chain letter was posted. Just as it was wrong for me to flame him over a minor detail.

But this is just my OPINION...

[Check your PM.] -Tal

[ September 20, 2002, 09:54: Message edited by: Taluntain ]