DO you believe there is an afterlife?
Many cultures believe there is one. Many religions do too. There are also those who don't believe in one.
I was raised in the Catholic church and was taught that there is an afterlife. But as I got older I started getting interested more and more in science. So I started looking at my religion, more specifically what I learned about heaven and hell, from that standpoint. I started to question whether it does exsist. While I don't regularly attend church, I do still believe in God and the afterlife. I was married by a priest.
As part of a paranormal investigation team, we did see some things that could not be explained. While there was nothing difinitive, it did lead us to believe in the possibility.
What are your views? Keep in mind no one is right or wrong in regards to this. I'd like to just know what people think.

I was raised as a catholic too, but since like 6 years after my 'hervorming' (I don't know the english translation for it, but it is the next mayor thing after communion at the age of 12 or something in that number) I realized that religion said nothing to me.

I can safely say I don't believe in a god, and don't believe in reincarnation either.

The beauty of this question (and answer) is no one knows for certain, you can believe in it or you don't. I am very curious what happens when I die, but I am not wondering if their is a heaven or hell.

So you could say I am impartial on this question and like it this way, I am not counting out either option and will see it when I die, that is what it makes it so interesting.

My experience with the RC church is similar to yours, Apeman, but I took a little longer to reach that point. At this stage of my life I'm loosely agnostic - I believe that there is a God, but its exact nature is unknowable. Religion is a purely human construct, developed for either:
1) Individual solace in times of strife, or
2) Profit through control of a large populace.

As far as heaven goes, I'm torn. I like to think that deceased people are able to "look down from above" on what their loved ones are doing, but I can't see any "future" for myself past death. I have no anticipation of going anywhere in particular. I guess I'll just live my life as best as I can and be surprised when the time comes.

As someone pointed out already, it is completely irrelevant in the end what the case really is. For as long as nobody knows, it is all up to each of our personal beliefs. As a religious friend of mine once said, freely quoted:

"It doesn't matter wether god exists or not. In the end, all that matters is that you yourself can feel safe while alive, and when you'll die. When you go through hard times, can you really trust in any human? Certainly not. For a part of being an adult is to be intellectually evolved enough to understand that no human is perfect. There is not one being on this planet that can always help you, always support you. For that reason, we need a god. A being who is supreme, who never does mistakes, and who will always be there for you. Wether he exists or not is not a factor. That you believe he does, is. For a lone human, with nothing to believe in, with no-one to trust in, is much worse off than the one who decieves himself through his religion. Afterall, all you need, is belief."

This was very well said. I don't believe in a god. I want to, and I try to, but in the end I don't believe I do. But I recognize the need for a human to do this. I can freely admit that those rare times when I experience extreme difficulties, a prayer will ease my feelings and condition far more than a talk with the person I care/respect most. I don't care wether there is a god that receives those prayers or not, all I care is that it helps me. And so it is with death as well.

I do not believe in afterlife either. But if cheating myself through trying to believe in such will make me feel any better, then I will do so. Be the source of this help a divine power, or a simple mental defense system, its purpose can only be good. To turn your back towards such a help is suicidal and idiotic.

[ January 10, 2003, 15:21: Message edited by: Forashi ]

I believe there is some sort of afterlife, but I suspect that is because I simply cannot grasp the concept of existence, and I can't imagine the world without me. (Where will I be if I'm simply 'gone'?). For me it's better to think of it as 'afterlife' than to worry about it too much and go insane...

I was never raised to believe in any god, and I doubt I will ever find myself associated with any religion. It's not the message of religions that is the problem; it's more the way religion has been practised where I come from that has left a bit of a mark. ('Holier-than-thou', and all that)

[ January 10, 2003, 16:26: Message edited by: Faded ]

I have never believed in Heaven or Hell
I don't really believe in re-incarnation as most people consider the term to mean.
I guess I tend to look at death as the end of my body and self as I know it, but I don't necessarily look at that as the end. Kind of a conundrum huh?

My spiritual vision for afterlife is one in which my life force/spirit returns to the source. In my mind this source is something completely non-human, more like a great ball of energy.

I'm generally agnostic or atheist depending on my mood. I absolutely disdain any and all organized religions. In another post, we've been referring to prostitution as the oldest profession. Check again, folks, as it's only the second oldest. The oldest profession is shaman/witch doctor/priest, i.e., the person who creates a position of power and/or relative wealth through preying on the fears and insecurities of the masses.

I act in what I believe to be an ethical and moral matter. In my mind, the jury is definitely out when considering the existence of "god" or an afterlife. I'm pragmatic and skeptical. That being said, there's some things that just cannot be explained. Look at this John Edwards guy: He actually invited people to check him out and a room full of Harvard skeptics and scientists couldn't figure out the "trick" and actually recorded interesting electrical manifestations around him that aren't around "normal" people. Does that mean he's really channelling dead people? I don't know, but, using Occam's Razor, I'm willing to believe that until a better explanation comes along.

Please note that, even if he is channelling dead people, that does not make any organized religion "right" or even support the existence of "god." It does, however, open up some pretty interesting possibilities. . . .

Seeing from above posts my point of view will add something new to discussion. I've been RC since my birth and, however not a fanatic, I've always been very serious about the religion both internally and externally (and yes, I am roleplaying). I do believe in afterlife. It's nothing to be proved scientifically, but it's not the point of faith. Something close to this statement can be derived from various teachings of Jesus recorded in Bible. There would be no question of faith at all if we didn't need to believe.

I have strange beliefs, I believe in souls and stuff. I think that peple are reincarnated into either their greatest desire or deepest fear. I also believe in the potential of the dimensions. I think it is possible for them to overlap so that someone can completely cease to exist in one world but live longer and/or have more impact in another.

I think that even though it can't be said to be true or it may be considered foolish - there have been people forgotten as time wears memories and there have been people living for yonks and having a profound impact on society. People are also have said to think of relatives or someone who has gone in a certain place or by a certain animal. It is not proof, but i think it is a nice idea just the same.

My beliefs are much like Faded's. I do belive there is somthing after death, but it might simply be because I can't grasp the concept of not existing.
A few weeks ago had my toncils removed, and was put to sleep with narcotics. Everything just went black, and then I woke up. It felt like there was no time between falling asleep and waking up.
I believe that death is like that, but i can't imagine what it would be like. Oh well, I'll find out sooner or later...

Well'm, I guess I would classify myself as an atheist. I believe that the above statements about the necessity of people to believe in something better than mankind can be found to be true. For me, I don't see that necessity. Through mental conditioning, bad experiences with the church, Rand's works, or some combination of that and more, I don't feel any NEED to connect to a supreme being.

I see myself as perfect. Now, wait- let me clarify. I see myself as being, at this moment, at this time, both the best and worst I could possibly be. For that, I am perfect. I am balanced. When I suffer, I do not turn to a being of supreme good and ask for his aid, the same way I do not turn to a dark lord when I rejoice. My happiness, my sadness, my needs, are MINE, and to me, even if there was a God, to ask some other being to help me would be taking something away from the merit of my life. I want to live my life, not have my life lived through God's blessing. If I stumble, let me stumble, if I break, let me break. At least then I will know that it is my hand by which I came to such an end. At least then I will know that I have truly lived, and not simply echoed my life.

When I die, I will cease to exist as far as I'm concerned. Other people might remember me, talk to me as though I could hear them, but the entity I see reflected on my computer screen will no longer exist. Plants die, animals die, inanimate things are destroyed, water boils, wood burns, and what is this "supreme sentience" that makes me so arrogant that I believe I am somehow different, I am somehow better? My body shall fall to ruin, those delicate nerve connections that I need to live will fade, and my body will change form and composition, become compost, just as the wood turns to ash, the water to vapor. Never shall those nerves reconnect and form me again, just as the ashes will not reform the tree, the vapors not reform the river.

Amon-Ra

[ January 10, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: Amon-Ra ]

WOW Amon-Ra, great reply :)

I dont believe in god (he havent really proved that he exists ) but i dont know if i believe in afterlife.
Since so many people have seen ghosts (i have heard one, and had my lights turned on by themselves) there gotta be something about it.

All I'm going to say is yes, I do believe in God, and heaven and hell. I am a Roman Catholic, and I attend mass every Sunday. Please, don't ask questions about me, just accept my opinion.

I believe in life after death.
That is nohow linked to gods nor any higher beings. Religions added several explanations on it only because the science cannot find a proof that it exists or that it doesn't exist.

There are plenty books about it. Please get anything about NDE (near-death experience) from dr. Raymond Moody. He got in investigating that phenomenon first and found out that almost all of these persons who were brought back to life (different religions including atheists and different cultures) experienced almost the same things while in state of "clinical death".

Amon-Ra, y'see, you won't cease to exist! :p
No matter how you hoped that there is a way to avoid your responsibilities. Everything pays back. Here or there, it doesn't matter. Read the book ("Life after life").

[ January 10, 2003, 21:38: Message edited by: Extremist ]

I like to believe we have an inner spark, soul or whatever...You can see it in peoples' eyes, and I've never really seen it in an animal. I can't really explain it very well, but I think humans are gifted with something that will "live" long after our fragile casing has ceased to be.

When I look at the world around me, it seems as if everything gets recycled, soil feeds plants, plants feed animals, etc...New things grow every season, the cycle of life, etc...It's always seemed to me that the world is constantly renewing itself, why shouldn't peoples souls be recycled too?

Sir Bel, maybe you just can't see it in animals because you're not one of them. Maybe wolves see it in other wolves, cats in other cats.

An interesting thing about that supposition that things recycle- things recycle to maintain an equilibrium, so that coincidently no one thing can dominate and all may live in some kind of natural balance. [predator/prey balance, predators die off if they overdo it, etc]. Yet if souls live on after death, and new ones are being created every day through birth, wouldn't that produce an overpopulation of souls? Souls aren't being recycled, they're being stockpiled. Where are the soul-eaters? [This is why a lot of people believe in reincarnation]

Supposing souls exist:

I think that we live and die an infinite number of times during our "lives", as we change. I am a clearly different person than my past selves, but recognizable as me because I can trace all the changes and most of the changes have been minor. But when something happens so traumatic, so wrenching-you-from-your-capacities as death, would we be able to recognize ourselves, so changed?

I would be some ghastly entity, roaming the heavens or here on earth, not able to speak and be heard, unable to dance or play with those I love. That, in my mind, is not a blessing but a curse. I would be ripped from my body so that I might spend an eternity never knowing, never feeling what it is to live as me again. That is the cursed shell I would become if there is a life after this one.

One thing I feel I am sure of: I have but one life [i]here, in this form, with this mind, and this body. Whatever "soul" transends this form will not be me. It might have been a part of me, but I am body and mind as well, and when they die, this configuration dies, and this configuration is all that this configuration is concerned with.

Amon-Ra

[ January 11, 2003, 00:48: Message edited by: Amon-Ra ]

I do not believe in reincarnation because it's just too scary. Not the best reason in the world, but that's my opinion.

My belief is when you die, you "go" to the same "place" as when you sleep. Except that your heart and brain stop functioning, so there will be no dreams. Just complete unawareness of time or where your body is or who you are. Even the blackness of inside your eyelids is unnoticable.

Again, I did not base my belief on anything. Didn't read what religion or science or cultural-based media says - just pure personal ideas.

no.
Still I enjoy life. Envy me dreamers?

I am not christian. I am a friendly and helpful person without any evil intentions and I ESPECIALLY don't need a cookie at the end of the line to be that way. Like some do... I simply cannot find any mortal logic in God's plot, except making us his own amusement park.

God made the worst "deal", I've ever read about, with Satan. And God is supposed to be divine, so so ungraspable ingenious to create the amazing molecular structures we are made of. Creating the uncomprehendable multiverse/universe. And then He/she/it sux so much at diplomacy? Yeah right; Bible Bogus. I'll see you in hell. At least I have a couple of good Islamic friends to meet there. They are bad. They are non-christian. lol Yeah, religion is so good for mankind. We deserve heaven so much more than animals... ;)

EDIT; In christianity why can't animals go to heaven? Or can they? How selfish of men to claim superiority over souls. Weird I would say.

EDIT TWO; Amon-WinRaR, If you get a transplantation will you then cease to be you? The bigger picture of your ending paragraph, indicates you will. Just let the doctors know that you need a new social security number. That's one way to wash your hands after convicted of murder. Get a transplantation. HAHA! Good one Amon-Ra :shake:

EDIT THREE; Amon-Ra you can't put a Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium onto paradise, and say it gets overcrowded if the predator/pray system doesn't rule there. I know it is not your invention so no offence meant, but that is about the stupidest argument against christianity I've ever heard. I'll get back to you on the size of paradise when I have talked to it's designer over supper.

[ January 11, 2003, 15:24: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

Nobleman, I agree with you about the animals. Having worked with many intelligent species, its almost inpossible for me not to think there is something more there.
I'm going to say something completely contradictory here. I do not really believe in organized religion. "But," you say, "you were married by a priest." Yes, I was. But he was kicked out of the church because he married. (Catholic priests are not allowed to marry. Hmm nother topic) Anyways, he does offer a weekly service. But as he puts it, you don't have to kneel when everyone else does. If you want to sit the whole time you can. It is more like people getting together and connecting spiritually.
My beliefs in the afterlife are more like those of Native Americans. I am related to everything around me. I am not NA and don't claim to be an expert there. So I do not want to offend anyone. But I get more out of going for a hike in the woods by myself, then going to the noon mass on Sundays.

yes I believe in God. And yes I believe even more firmly in heaven and hell. Not as a cooky for doing good, but as the result of the choices we've made on earth.

Why I believe in this is hard to put in words, there are too many little things that add up together. The main reason for believing in God is that by believing life starts making sense. Without a 'higher Being' there can be no morale. So it wouldn't matter if I would take a gun and shoot say my neighbour, or if I would help the old lady next door doing her shopping. This would drive me insane. So in that way it is my active choice. Next to that I see a lot of wrong things happening in churches (castrate all those bloody priest that lay their hands on children! :mad: ) but that's not God's 'fault. we mess up.

If you believe in God you should be in all the way. You can just take a little part to your liking and leave the rest untouched!

Aegron wrote
Without a 'higher Being' there can be no morale. So it wouldn't matter if I would take a gun and shoot say my neighbour, or if I would help the old lady next door doing her shopping. This would drive me insaneThat is exactly the core of what is wrong with Christianity in my honest opinion. No offence, but this is the overwhelming opinion I get from discussing with christians. Look at what you write damit. It's hard for me to find anything more wrong than saying morale has no meaning without a paradise at the end. I just call paradise a cookie instead. Or is paradise not as good as a cookie? *sigh*

Why the heck can't there be morale without a higher beeing? I am at a loss, as always, in understanding christianity. It's a simple question. I just can't get it into my thick head. Just can't. Even harder than understanding women. :)

EDIT; Plz I am not writing this to advocate Ateism, I am trying to understand. I just can't believe in a religion which's foundations I am utterly against. :(

Elios wrote
So I do not want to offend anyone. But I get more out of going for a hike in the woods by myself, then going to the noon mass on SundaysThe root of my feelings.- Nicely put Elios.

[ January 11, 2003, 15:37: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

I agree with Nobleman, I too get tired of the claim morality exists only because of God. Again, morality would then be based solely upon fear, fear of what will happen when you're dead. Logically it doesn't make sense to say that anyhow because it doesn't explain why all the athiests behave within generally accepted moral codes.

no it's the other way around! There isn't morale because of either fear of God or wanting to gain a place in paradise.

There is a morale. We believe some things to be wrong and other's to be right. These 'moralistic rules'apear in some form or other in every society. So how come? i believe we didn't invent these rules all by ourselves but to put it spiritually God inspired these in us.

Heaven isn't the purpose of believing in God. it's a nice 'bonus'. I would still believe in God if there was no afterlife, because I think christianity in it's pure form is the best way to lead your life or to build up a society.

(if you want to know more about the morale stuff, C.S. Lewis' mere christianity is a great book!)

Without a 'higher Being' there can be no morale. Make this assumption and look at what follows as was pointed out by the greeks:

(1) good is arbitrary -- based upon the whim of god.

(2) God is not good. If the good comes from God then God is prior to the good and is therefore outside of it.

(3) Good is unkowable unless you know the mind of god -- we need to talk to god to find out whether stem cell research is moral, whether.....

(4) Good is elastic. If god changes his mind murder is good starting Sept 16, 2003.

If you think that the good flows from god then you really need to agree with the above (what #3 means is debatable.) However, if the good is independent of god then god can be good, it is not necessarily arbitrary, and we can come to know it without having to understand god and aren't these good things?

@Aegron
So moral is put into us by God? Mankind is not able to invent such noble spirits by themselves? Then why aren't all people acting within God's moral codex? This leads us back to my other Grunt. The one that we are God's amusement park. If we are unable to be kind without God's help, then we are just as good of as toys. So you see either way around you put it; this Heaven for the praying only and the fact that we are unable to grow moral ourselves, doesn't make sense. At least for me. :)
If you can find a way to both explain why we need a God to be moral and at the same time not make us God's toys, You'll make me a very very happy dude :)

Laches wrote
God is not good. If the good comes from God then God is prior to the good and is therefore outside of it.Mathematically If A is part of B, Why can't B and A be equal? Or why can't B be even larger than A?
Put into words. If good comes from God. God can be both "only" good, but also something larger than Good. Something kinder. You see the deduction Laches?

Laches wrote
Good is elastic. If god changes his mind murder is good starting Sept 16, 2003This, on the other hand, is a shining example of a logic hammer brought to the weakness of christianity's laws.

[ January 11, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

Death is life's most inevitable experience. It's got a 100% success rate. It's probally life's most universially feared experience. And it certianly is mysterious. What will happen to me when I die?

Well I don't know all the details, and haven't gotten to experience one of those nifty near-death-experiences either, but I just can't wait to experience the warmth, the brilliance, the peace at last. The lion sitting down beside the lamb, the place were death and sorrow are not allowed in. You know we as humans are getting pretty smart. We can make a lot of things. Shoot we might even be cracking this human cloning thing sometime soon. But we can never make peace. True peace. Universal peace. That is something we can never get on our own. I can't wait for the real deal. I look forward to heaven.

I can't wait to see some spectacular sights too. Some real special effects, live action. I'm referring to when Jesus comes back and Satan is bound and thrown, him and all the lies he has fed to mankind throughout the years, into a lake of fire. It will be an awesome sight to behold (well depending who's side your on.) A new heaven and earth being created. New Jerusalem descending from heaven. It's going to be glorious.

If you want a realy good Bible study, check out Hebrews 11. Verses 13-16 tell us that the great heroes of the faith died "without receiving the promises." They got a glimpse of them "from a distance" and took God at His word for their fulfillment in another, "better country, that is, a heavenly one." In verses 25 and 26 we review that Moses choose to put his faith in rewards through God rather than the limited rewards of life. The idea here is faith and endurance are key. And at the end of the race are the real rewards. This world is not the real world. This life is not the real deal. This is just the prologue to a great story. Now don't think that because this life is so brief, and just a precursor to what's to come, that it is inconsequential. Our brief stay here may seem unimportant, but that is not the truth. We may not remember or care what our lives have been, but God remembers perfectly and cares very much. Eternity will hold for us what this life has invested in it.

Nobleman, you refer to it as a cookie. Here's how I think about the rewards in heaven. I think about the summer camp I worked at last summer and one of my campers, Scott, a mentally challenged man of 36 (but you couldn't tell, he looked 20 and was very athletic). Scott and I had a ball. He lives in Georgia though and I may never get to see him again - here on earth that is. But one day, Scott and I are going to get to continue that friendship - for eternity. That thought is very rewarding. When I speak of rewards in heaven. I'm not talking about my condo with a Corvette out front. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Friendships that last. Eternity is after all eternity. There's going to be plenty of time to get to know and share out of this world (literally) experiences with my fellow believers and that includes everyone from my family members, to friends, to the heroes from the Bible. Everyone who believes, has faith, and endures.

I was eating a quick lunch the other day, right before classes were about to begin for the new sememster here at college and this lady comes up to me. She smiles, tells me "welcome back", and gives me a half-hug (I'm still seated, trying to see if I recognize her). Well I realize that I don't recongize her. I've never seen her before in my life. And I said "thanks" and then she offered an explanation. She told me she had seen me praying before my meal and just wanted to come over and say a few words of encouragement since I had offered her some. Well I'll never see her again - here on this earth that is. But one day in heaven, we'll have plenty of time to talk and do things together. So like Abraham and Moses and other believers, I get glimpses of the kingdom, but I have to continue the race. I'm not there yet.

And although I know I'm not (my faith stands in the way), let's say this whole idea is a sham. That the Bible is full of itself, and I'm believing in a lie. In other words, let me buy into Satan's lies for just a second. I live my life and then I die. And like Blog suggests I slip into a state of sleep and nothing else. How am I going to know if what I believed in was right or wrong? I'm asleep. I'm nothing. That's it. What harm have I done? Wasted my life? Not enough fun? Too much time Bible studying and praying? How will I know though? I'm asleep remember? I'm nothing remember? I've got nothing to loose. However, let's come back to reality. When you find yourself in heaven or hell, you're going to know alright. There's a big difference. Here you've got everything to loose or gain.

Here's an idea to ponder: We say our life is ours, and it's all about us. ME and MINE. What happens to you in eternity is about you. It is YOUR DECISION. YOUR CHOICE. This is not God's playground. We are not his test subjects. God has given everyone the right to CHOOSE. He could have bound Satan already, taken us into heaven and that would be that. But would you have chosen that? Would it not be construed that God never gave you the choice? That in fact you are being held there against your will. That's why it isn't that way. That's why God lets us enjoy our lives, but he also has something even greater for us. But we have to choose it. That's the only way it becomes authentic.

I can survive a limited life on a battlefield for the sake of an eternity of peace. And I get the comfort of knowing it was my choice to choose between an eternity of peace and an eternity of suffering.

[ January 11, 2003, 19:43: Message edited by: Big B ]

Personally I find it hard to accept religion of any kind. I think that mankind first invented religion and the afterlife to comfort those who would shortly be traveling there. It's no co-incidence that churches are mostly inhabited by people above a certain age. There comes a time in your life when you begin to realise that you aren't going to be on this earth for ever, and as an outgrowth of that realisation you start wondering what will happen to youself afterwards.

We know, of course, what happen to the *physical* you. Decompisition, hole in the ground, worms having breakfast etc. etc. We've had a good long time to see that, and lets face it, if thats all that happens death isn't much fun. And so humankind invented the soul. Ah...now there was a good idea. Its not physical see, so when we die the body goes one way but the soul goes...well where? Now here comes religion. Another great idea. Yup, with religion comes the idea that after death you go somewhere nice, maybe with palm trees and sunny beaches, everybody is very happy. This is a great idea. Everybody is pleased. Untill the next complication anyways. Suddenly someone thinks to himself, "Hold on, does that mean all the murderers and rapists and whatnot get to go to this big happy place too? Hardly seems fair does it?" And so religion gets a few new rules. Now its "Live a good life and behave yourself and THEN you'll go to the happy place." The idea that you might not go to heaven of course, presented you with another problem. If not heaven then where? And so hell was invented too. (On a side note I'm not just talking about christianity with my heaven and hell, many religions share simular beliefs).

One of my problems with religion is that it tends to change when it encounters something new. The fanatics inside the religion itself might call it a "revelation", a new concept which changes the rules of the religion and which must surely be inspired by the resisident deity. <insert sarcasm in previous sentence> The thought that it wasn't a revelation, that it wasn't inspired by god, rarely occurs to them. Because that would mean the unthinkable: God, and by extension the Church, might not be infalible. And if god can make mistakes, then the idea of worshiping him isn't as much of a comfort.

Um...I think I've started to ramble, its been a long night. Eh...bye.

Nobleman, my saying god would be outside of good was a poor choice on my part. Better to say that god would pre-date good. Good would be something it made up at a later date and there wouldn't be the sort of moral worthiness associated with people who do good things associated with god. Sort of like there isn't any worth in winning a game when you made the game up and can change the rules as you go.

I disagree. Faith is not about doing good just because of fear or hopes for reward. Personally I do good because that's the way God created my in his image and I regret doing wrong because I upset him that way. Deserving your salvation in Christianity is related, right, but it's just this way.

I was talking with my mom and my wife. Both were raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools all their lives. (My wife is a little older than I am, so she went to school a genreation before me.) When they were taught about heaven and hell, it was if you sin, you will spend time in purgatory and then depending on your life, you cluld go to either heaven or hell. This is what my parents taught me as I was groing up. I went to a Catholic grade school for eight years. They didn't teach much about the logistic of heaven and hell till we were older. Than, in my eight grade religion class, we had a priest teaching us about heaven and hell and really getting into the details. He taught us that we are all forgiven for our sins when we die. First, we'll spend time in purgatory, I imagined it as a bunch of people sitting around playing cards waiting for someone to come into the room and say, "Ok, Dave, you can come into heaven now." Then we move into heaven. He taught us that no one goes to hell anymore? Anymore? Seriously, that is how he put it. What has hell reached its capacity? I didn't understand since what my mom had taught me conflicted with what I learned in school. I think it was around that point that I started questioning a lot of things with Catholisism. In a lot of cases I think the "rules" of a religion are made up to benefit those in charge of the religion at that time.

Laches
Yuo are right Laches there is no point in playing a game invented by oneself. But God made it for others. I don't see God on earth. So I I get a little Itch about your extrapolation. Anyway I agree that we can logically assume God Predates Good. But did he for a fact? God may have an ocean of feelings and that one day presented good. We cannot logically deduct that good wasn't part a part of God. He could have given us his heart not a flower, so to romantically say.

BIG B.
Whoa! I had one of those enligntening experiences. I don't know what it was in your post but I suddenly felt a rush of impressions rushing in. As if I was seeing things through your eyes, feeling your feeling. Sensing your peace. I am still not convinced at all, but I'll do just as you say. Ponder for a few days. redead your post over and over just to make sure "it" doesn't slip. I'll rest my case against Heaven/hell; for now :)

Just a two connected questions BigB. You ask what harm you've done when you are about to rest on this earth. I would like to ask the same. What harm have I done in this world if I preacher good, friendship and integrity? But on the other hand openly despise Christianity in all its heavenly/hell varieties?

Is it blashpemy to teach that the feelings God gave us, is infact mankinds' feelings amongst ourselves? I could even continue and say I certainly spend my time to encourage more people and help more people instead of trying to save my own and other's skin in an endless wave of prayers. I find peace in the moment and in other people, and not in the shared thought of an eternal afterlife. Big B, you say you can't wait to see heaven. I beg to differ I can wait to die. I'll treasure this world every damn inch of the way. Even when I am certain that all the choices I sacrificed were in vain, when I eventually die.

I'll quote the King, Elvis. He rounds my thoughts up pretty well. A little less talk a little more action pleaseEDIT;
BigB
All I can say is that I am sorry for myself. The peace I felt from looking at things through your eyes that split second was just a moment's revelation. I'll certainly not feel that comfort and warmth in my lifestyle. You have those revelations all the time. But I feel no envy for it.

I'll be so bold as to say that a true Christian would sacrifice heaven for his friends, even for the murderer who killed your family in cold blood while you were watching. Your dad. Your mother your brothers and sisters. If the sacrifice could make the murderer forgive his sins and be a better man then isn't it worth it according to the bible? How many christians would be left if they had to sacrife heaven for a sinner? One. Jesus

[ January 12, 2003, 13:40: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

I understand you're a good person Nobleman. I've always known I've enjoyed reading your posts. I even see why it makes people mad that they do good but just because they don't believe in God, some Christian comes along and has the audacity to tell them if they don't believe they are going to hell. I understand that. I can't speak for others, but I say it because I care. I know some people actually enjoy pointing the finger and telling people they are going to hell. I wish this didn't happen, but it does. I just want you to realize that you're close. You can continue to do good. You can continue to preach friendship and integrity. But you can add to it and become a believer. It gives your efforts even more of a purpose.

It's more than just saving your skin. I know when I was little that's what is was for me. I needed to get to heaven so I can avoid hell. Now that I've grown up I realize it isn't so much about saving my skin. It's about accepting a gift, receiving love from God, and doing what I can to give it back and share it with others. Once a believer, always a believer.

That's why I don't understand what you mean by sacrificing heaven. Once you're a believer, you're always a believer - you can't sacrifice it. Now you may have downtimes. Some people call it backsliding. I think it's more like discoragement, maybe even depression. Once you're a believer, Satan has lost any claim over you. But he will still try to get you down and out, to neutralize you. Because even if you're a believer, if all you're doing is sitting in the corner quietly, you're no threat to him. But still once a believer, always a believer.

Now one thing you can sacrifice is your life. I don't remember the details on hand, but didn't a girl at Columbine pray during the shootings, and one of the gunmen told her to deny God at gunpoint and she wouldn't. And he shot her. That was an example right there. Who knows how many people have been brought one step closer to Christ through that alone. Would I have done the same? Yes. If you're going to die, might as well go out with a bang. The thought that your witness at death might impact others makes the thought of death more comforting.

As for the gunmen or even the murderer in the example you gave, I don't believe anyone is beyond redemption. That's just another lie. No matter what you've done, you can be redeemed. You can ask for forgiveness and receive salvation through Christ.

Nobleman and Big B, thanks for all the stimulating postings. I hope you don't mind me adding something about the raised finger syndrome.

There are two passages in the bible worth considering in this case. (I'm not sure which chapters but I believe it's either the gospel of Luke or Mark) On one hand Jezus tells us that we have only two choices: 1) either choose for God and gain everything or 2) choose against God and loose everything. This passage is used by lots of people to condemn everyone not openly worshipping God they way they do.

But there is another passage where Christ says that unless people act AGAINST God we should warn them/hate them (not sure which one). So we should not use the finger (no pun intended) if people do good but don't say they believe in churches or whatever.

There's only one who can make the choices for/against God and that is you/me for yourself.

C.S. Lewis (yes I know I'm a great fan of his books!) but it like this in "the last battle":
everything you did good in name of an evil deity you actually did for me. And all the evil things done in my name weren't done for me but for the devil.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I like to believe this! But this doesn't mean people should do just good and leave it at that. I would like to see those people to take the last step into the light and warmth of God!

(nobleman if you have time and interest I advice you to read a few books written by C.S. Lewis on these matters. If your interested just pm me ok?)

I think there is life after death. But I am not sure if it is in this time or in this world.
I was baptisblah when I was a child. Almost all poeple here do that. But I don't believe a **** in any god. I don't think they exist and that doesnt bother me. All my friends are going to " konfirmeras" (sorry, dont know the word in english) except me. Tis when you read about god and then you do a test and theres alot of stuff in the church, and you get LOTS of prezzies!
I went to my cousins konfirmation.

Confirmation. ;)

I think that you will spend some time with god (or whatever) and later you will reborn into any creature on earth. I also think that no new souls are made, only the already used ones will come back. The time? Dunno, meaby a hundred or so years. I hope I would be a eagle or a wolf. Free or a respected killer.

Sorry I haven't written back sooner. I was thinking :)

The point about sacrificing heaven was a mere hypothetic question. You have a friend that is not a believer. One day God comes down to you and tells you that you can choose to let your friend come in heaven instead of you. Would you sacrife this amazing gift? If you do you will vanish when you die. And that is it. This is in a way my world. I sacrifice heaven each day to help others. The question is will christians? I know one who kinda did it. Jesus Christ.

Special note;
Unlike the woman you mention, who got shot for preying, I am still on earth able to help and trying to help the weak and the sad. Not up in heaven enjoying my gift and chatting with moses. Earth matters my friend. it is not a railway station where you just hang around and wait for the next train to heaven. In a way I am pretty mad at her.

An idea;
But If you want I'll gladly go around and telling every christian that I'll shoot them if they don't stop preying. And I will. Because all that christians spend their whole life looking for, is to get, as you put it, one step closer to jesus. Heck with you all christians happy up in heaven, there is more room for the starving and miserable here on Earth. World could be a better place. Just let me know everytime someone has chosen God(each confirmation perhaps). I'll bring my gun. It will save us a lot of time. You get to prove your faith and we get more space for the rest of us. I know I am harsh. But it is the only way to get some more believers' opinions into this. That is why I end up in hell, possibly with Han Solo ;)

PS: Please remember to answer my question. It is a simple yes or no.

[ January 14, 2003, 21:14: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

Believe is something nobody can take away from you. God reaches out to us, while we drown in a stinking pool of our own cowdy. When He reaches to pull you out (He sends His Holy Spirit), you have to grab His hand (accept and believe that Jesus died for you) and He WILL pull you out. Once He holds you, He will never let you go.

I can preach good, friendship and integrity, I can give my money to the poor, I can sacrifice my life, it won't help me if I don't believe that Jesus died for me.
People can talk down to me, bully me, take my selfrespect away. People can take my money. They can take my photographs. They can take my life and burn my family. But they can't get me away from God.

The devil wants us to believe that we won't be redeemed and that we shouldn't even dare to ask. An other lie. No matter what you've done, you can be redeemed. You can ask for forgiveness and receive salvation through Christ. "He has removed our rebellious acts as far away from us as the east is from the west."

About the raised/pointing finger:
Who am I to judge others? I'm as filthy as any other human. But on the other hand, What if I don't warn other people that they go to hell if they don't believe Jesus died for them? He would be cursing, crying and asking why I didn't warn him.

Many people ask 'If God is good, then why is there so much death, hunger and sorrow?'
-We chose it- 'Why did God made the opportunity to choose it?' Answer:
Imagine your the only man (or woman) on earth and a woman (or man...) would come up to you and shared her life with you. It would be different if there was an other for her to choose for. If she would choose you when there are others, her love means much more. IMO, it's the same with God. He didn't want us to be robots, programmed to love him. He wanted us to choose for Him so He could see our love. But we did otherwise. And still He loves us.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it. There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God."

I couldn't say 'no' to His proposal.

Master, could I basically sum up what you said in one sentence? God gave us free will.

Neat-o. I'm finall back, I have not posted in like at least a week. Anyways, the afterlife is such a neat topic for debate. It conjures up deliciously wonderful ideas about heaven and having fun and not getting hurt, and on the other hand spawns nightmare-ish fantasies in hell(or whatever other plane of existence you believe in) being whipped and burned and such. Some people, no names mentioned, believe that there is a collective human sub-conscience that all your instincts or shared ideas go to, and that can be what spawns deja-vu. At the same time, it's not my idea or belief. I do not believe in an extreme afterlife, maybe something more mundane, but i live for the mundane and mediocre. Like life here, but on a more personal level with everything generated by your mind(whats left of it?) but maybe black and white, with some gray for life. I am not sure. It's neat though. Just like melon ballers.

Elios, I'm not sure. Deep in our heart we always choose for the devil, the world and ourselves i.s.o God, the afterlife and others. Our soul is slave of our sinns and without the intervention of the Holy Spirit we would never choose for God.
This is probably the reason that some people don't want to believe in a god that chooses some of us, but not all. We can only be glad that some of us will go to heaven, since we all deserve hell, because we screwed the whole lot.
For them who believe in God, be glad. He saved you. For them who don't believe in God, don't think you will go to hell allready. There was a criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus, who changed his life at its very ending. ;)

Master what about my simple questions?
I know it is hard for christians to extrapolate beyond the standard phrases they learn in church and are explained by their parents at home. But try.

Question A
God comes down and offers you the choice to give your gift, Heaven, to a friend a non believer and instead of him, you vanish *puff*. Gone when you die. No funny chats with Jesus. No grandpa waiting. No eternal joy. No nothing. The End.
Yes or no answer?

Question B;
After confirmation I can come and shoot ya' all. Then you get to prove your faith, and come not only one step closer to Jesus but all steps closer. And We get more space here on earth. In christianity it is apperently only about proving your faith. Not about doing good. But accepting a choice. Right? Isn't that the core of it all. Choose? Doing good all life or evil all life is of no relevance. Just the honest choice at the end. Emphasis on honest. I can help you. All you gotta do is honestly believe when I shoot you. *wham* you are heaven. What a ride. It has no flaws in the christian concept of logic. Isn't it a fabulous idea?
Yes or no answer?

*I risk with this post that my previous post will be forgotten, but heck I am a gambler*

Edit; And I haven't even started *****ing about my third grunge. All in this scenario are presently non believers. A police officer accidentally kills a person when his gun discharges. He panicks and run but gets hit by a speeding Truck, whose driver is drunk as hell. The officer didn't get a chance to have a long life to figure it out and redeem himself and so goes to hell. The drunk driver do get a chance to have a long life to ponder and so goes to heaven. Christianity makes the world so easy, huh :shake: . I love that christians speak so much of choices when you instantly flip the coin and jab on about God's will instead, when the other doesn't fit.

EDIT 2; Now I think I have packed enough in this post. I hope you take the time to really think before you answer. :)

[ January 15, 2003, 14:57: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

Nobleman, don't take this the wrong way, but your questions are irrelevant.

A) God won't come to us with this question, because we can't help our next door neighbour. the only Person who could do this is God's son, Jesus Christ. Because he did this for us God comes to every person on this planet and ask him or her: "I've got the best gift in the entire world! you don't have to pay for it, I'm giving it to you for free! the only thing you have to do is bow down for me."

(For an answer to the question, I HOPE I can say give my place to someone else, because Jesus has said: "everyone who will give his life for me or for someone who needs it, will be rewarded with life in heaven")

B) I'm not sure if this is the answer to your question, but no it would not be great! Everyone hopes (I think) that he or she has the faith to make the right decision in these circumstances, but as said before: faith isn't meant to be proven (look how faithful I am!) but because you believe in God you want to act nice to people around you.

As shown in the example by my first answer, God gives us the greatest gift in the entire universe. IMHO it is only logical for christian to be glad about this gift and thus start showing this by helping other people/doing good deeds.

This is the fundamental difference between christianity and any other religion: christians get it for free and because of this they do good things. In any other religion it is because you do good things you are rewarded with a place in heaven, nirwana or whatever.

I hope I've made it somewhat clear, but this hard to do in a forum!

(For an answer to the question, I HOPE I can say give my place to someone else, because Jesus has said: "everyone who will give his life for me or for someone who needs it, will be rewarded with life in heaven")So you don't even have to be christian to go to heaven. That was a change. Actually by spending your life helping others, you'll be rewarded with heaven. Perhaps Jesus is not all that twisted as his Father.

This is the fundamental difference between christianity and any other religion: christians get it for free and because of this they do good things. In any other religion it is because you do good things you are rewarded with a place in heaven, nirwana or whateverHow can you be so sure of your faith when you know so little of the other religions? And just toss them all of in a single wiggle. This is even more frightening. Man, I have spent most my years really digging around religions. It is with overwhelming majority my most interesting study. Just because I attack your belief doesn't mean I do it in evil intention. I want to learn. I will gladly take a rumble with most other religions. Not for the point of getting a rise out of butkicking, but to learn.

Back to my two questions.
A:
I see it is impossible for a believer to help a non believer in his quest for God, since you will not extrapolate on a scenario that doesn't already fit into a believers mind. Am I supposed to believe before I can believe or what?

B:
It is really not your choice to make. It is actually my choice now that I think of it. Anyone who kills a christian has got it right. Man, a lot of people out there are doing a hell of a work for Christians each day. Since heaven is given for free, those who kill christians have seen the bigger picture. I wish I had the guts to help you die. :)
Fantastic religion. And you can't help me. Since it is my choice to kill you. Mine alone.

EDIT; And no, it is in fact easier to discuss religion in a forum. Since Religion is a very heavy topic, and in life action talk you have to answer immediately. And it accomplishes nothing. To say it boldly. Humanity is not intelligent enough to use its own creation, language, in life action speak. With Forums you can reread think reread. Think. etc. Much more suited for an open mind. open minds are important for any discussion though.

"I've got the best gift in the entire world! you don't have to pay for it, I'm giving it to you for free! the only thing you have to do is bow down for me." This sounds like a bribe to me. My momma always said to me, "When you play in the park, never say yes to candy from strange men". What you write could quite likely be the strange man's words...
Oh man, that was blashpemy sorry. :toofar: <--- to myself

[ January 15, 2003, 15:36: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

From my point of view, there´s nothing after dead, no joy, no parents waiting, no "big chief", just nothing..

That´s why I´m not afraid of what while happen to me after I die (when I die there might be something to be afraid of), because I´m not afraid of nothing..
and when I´m dead I won´t wail about the changes I missed in life or how I miss life, because there is nothing, also nothing that gives me the power to think, nothing that gives me the power to be me.

That´s my own afterlife, nothing. Or in other words I don´t have a afterlife

..

A few days ago a Christian came to me trying to save my soul, I thanked her because of that, but honestly, these people are afraid of what´s to come and therefore they make themselves believe that there´s a higher being, a reward waiting for them after dead and that reward is everything their heart desires, peace.

@Nobleman:

Let me say I am impressed by the fact that you even knew it was called a Hardy-Weinberg. Have they let you use the Flintstone Phone yet? Yabba-Dabba-Doo, I like talking to you!

My reference to a predator/prey system as far as souls go wasn't meant to be taken as an argument. It was a joke. You know, like the ones above. I do that. You know, with the joking. Try it some time. Seriously.

As far as a transplant goes, no, that wouldn't change who I am. I'd still have all of my other gooey organs and I'd be aware of the procedure. It's not like I woke up one day and WHOAAA! Where the hell is my spleen? That might be a little different, and severely disturbing [though not altering of an identity, again, still more gooey organs that haven't been pilfered]. By configuration I was being relatively loose, otherwise my mere breathing creates a new entity every second. But if I woke up and I was a friggin' marmot or something, that'd be pretty life-altering. [Mainly because I'd've lost me brain!]

Losing THAT [unless somehow after your brain shut off and you became a ghost you had a ghost-brain, now that would be awesome] Ahem... anyway, losing your conscious state, the only state you've ever truly "known" or perceived, well, consciously, is what makes life-after-death so hard to fathom for me.

Noblerman
...er- Amon-WinRaR

A. NO
B. YES

A. As stated above God would never force this situation to happen. But I see you want us to think hypothetically. Hypothetically, if this scenario happened I couldn't do it. There is no way I could exchange eternity in heaven for eternity in hell for a friend. Selfish? Yes. I'm human what do you expect. Eternity is a long time. But again this choice will never come into play so it is irrelevant. I don't have to be a super hero. God has taken care of everything. This is not the choice I have to make. The only choice I have to make is do I believe in God, do I trust in him, and do I accept his love and want to return it as best I can.

B. Yes you could kill me. Or anyone else for that matter. The loss is one less soldier on the battlefield, the gain is one more soldier welcomed home. However, it is important to know that I do not need to prove my faith to anyone but God. And since God is the only being who can see through everyone and their thoughts, no flashy scenes are needed. He knows.

"So you don't even have to be christian to go to heaven. That was a change. Actually by spending your life helping others, you'll be rewarded with heaven. Perhaps Jesus is not all that twisted as his Father."

Nobleman you argue the importance of studying other religions and not to just look at part of them and judge. This is what you are doing here. This is just a snippet of Jesus' teachings. You cannot accurately conclude that "you don't even have to be a christian to go to heaven" as Jesus teaches that no one can get to heaven except through Him alone. Please be considerate of the whole beliefs of Christianity. And don't judge on external factors. The Bible is the heart of it all. I know studying the Bible isn't always the easiest. It's been translated and words don't always add up. This is when pastors become a valuable tool. They have been trained. They have taken Greek. They can help you with your questions. Take classes yourself. Ask questions. Pray before you study the Bible. Ask for wisdom and understanding. Keep an open mind. It's easy to twist the scripture to fit your ideas. Keep yourself in check. Study the whole context not just the parts. If you study just the parts you may run into what seems like contradictions. But if you study it on a whole, and the context and really think about who the author is, what he was experiencing at the time, who his audience is, then the pieces fall into place. If you want answers then go to the source. The Bible. And if you have more questions/concerns post them. And we'll see what we can do.

Reply on Nobleman's questions in post of 14.17am this day. (I didn't read the others...yet)

A)That may seem a simple question for a non-believer. I could only answer it if nothing happens to non-believers and if christians would go to heaven if there was a god.
A major thing in christianity is that I love God and the other people. If I could swap places with a non-believer so he would go to heaven and I would vanish (No heaven, no hell, no anything), then I could let this man go to heaven, since I should help people and wish them all the best. But if I did so, what would my love for God mean? If you love somebody, you want to be with him/her. So I would choose for God AND my fellow-humans and see Him and all of you in heaven. That's why a christian would tell everybody about what God has done for us: to take some friends to the party! ;)
But you want me to answer with yes or no. I say 'yes, i would swap places'. (I only say yes to give an answer but it has no meaning. This question is impossible to answer)

B) Sounds great! I could also jump from a cliff or run into a train. But I shouldn't fall for that trick. God has given us a place here on earth. We should protect our lifes and musn't bring it into danger willingly, on purpose. We must never forget, though, that heaven is more important then this life on earth, so I would rather have myself killed if I should make a choice for God or life on earth.

Third grunge: You wont go to hell for accidentally killing someone. You didn't mean to, you won't be judged for it. You will only be judged for disbelieve. And even if that policeman didnt have a long life to think of his accident, he DID get a life long enough to choose for God.
The drunken truckdriver did have a longer life and he was sorry for his 'accident' (accident was not giving the policeman a shortway to hell, but getting drunk and speeding). If he believes Jesus died for him instead, then, yes, he would go to heaven. But he will hear there that he shouldn't have drunk so much.
Christianity doesn't make the world easy. Or mankind? I don't know, but I know that christians could expect a life not to easy.

--reading other posts now--

Aegron answer A: agree, but Jesus didnt mean to give our afterlife to someone else (as in Noblemans question), but this life.
Aegron answer B: agree

Nobleman, can you sum up some religions where the afterlife is given for free? This is not a challenge, I want to know more about other religions, especially the ones who give away heaven for just believing.

Fanastic religion! Indeed. and I can help you by telling you about it, the rest is up to you and God.

This sounds like a bribe to me. My momma always said to me, "When you play in the park, never say yes to candy from strange men". What you write could quite likely be the strange man's words...
Oh man, that was blashpemy sorry. <--- to myself
If you were really sorry, you would edit your post and take that away... :evil: ;)

these people are afraid of what´s to come and therefore they make themselves believe that there´s a higher being, a reward waiting for them after dead and that reward is everything their heart desires, peace. Or they are just so happy that they can't keep their mouth shut about it and want to take some friends with them to heaven... Just an other interpretation.

@MoN, Big B, and all other Christians/Catholics: I am very happy for you to have found such fulfillment and joy in your faith!

The "problem" I have with your version of Heaven, though, is that I find it hard to believe that paradise is a closed party. Is a devout Jew, someone who worships regularly and is a genuinely good person, eliminated from Heaven because of the technicality of not recognizing Jesus? How about a Muslim (leaving the radical fundamentalists out of the equation for now) or a Hindu or a Buddhist? These people have all accepted a being they recognize as God and live according to His teachings. Are they too condemned because the God that they know isn't the Trinity that you know?

This is the question that leads me to believe that God is where you find Him/Her/It and that you'll reach Heaven as long as you're true to your personal spirituality. As someone else said, I'm closer to God during a walk in the woods than sitting in a church.

Rallymama, as a devout Jew, you recognize the Old Testament, right? Exodus 20:3. You disagree with this part? You disagree with God? That is who you worship, correct?

What are your thoughts on Messianic Jews? I've yet to meet one, but I would really like to.

I'm not really a devout anything, Big B, and it's been a long time since I've read the Bible. Refresh me on the verse?

A brief comment: RC catechism says that the sole faith is not enough and that non-believers may be saved. Jesus once said people will be judged basing on deeds towards other people only. Of course almost no one would survive divine law based judgement in terms of being released from charges, and it's yet stricter in terms of merit. Thus faith helps and grace is needed. Non-believers are however not excluded since all the people are Children of God, regardless of whether they know and/or follow Him and His ways or not. Apostasy is a more complex issue though, so don't quote me there.

[ January 15, 2003, 21:23: Message edited by: chevalier des Trois-Tours ]

In all honesty, I don't like to believe that non-Christians who have never gotten a chance to come in contact with Christ, salvation, and the like all go to Hell. God is not mean. I believe that He gives people a chance to repent. Jesus talked to Prostitutes, he preached to the unclean. Perhaps God had other ways of revealing His love to those not exposed to Christianity. Frankly, I have no idea - that's what God only knows.

And yes, I believe when I die, I'll be with God and Jesus. You can point out that the Earth is not 10,000 years old, Jesus was not the Savior, that the Bible is inaccurate, and so forth. That does nothing; it is only proof, and proof won't change belief.

Sorry Rallymomma, misread your post. I though you said "as a devout Jew" not "is a devout Jew". But Exodus 20:3 is the first of the Ten Commandments, a direct qoute from God - "You shall have no other gods before me."

I am sort of inclined to Terry Pratchetts view of the afterlife in the Discworld books. You go where you are expecting to go. So I am real busy thinking up some really sweet places for me to end up after I have died in a freak accident.

I wont jump into the theological discussion here but I would like to say that Terry Pratchett must be one of the worlds greatest theologicans. Read his Small Gods and all of his other books as well, he is so right on target on the matter of religion. That is one area where the discworld mirrors our world perfectly. Atleast when it comes down to how we humans work.

No probs, Big B. :) And I'm fully on board with the "No other gods before me" part, too. The hypothetical people I described have each accepted God, just maybe not the God of the OT. Is salvation dependent upon what form God takes?

Ok, question for everyone. How do you account for the change in the teachings of the church on heaven and hell? Like I said in an earlier post, my wife and mother were taught if you were bad, you went to hell. When I went through grade school, 15 years or so ago, I was taught that everyone is forgiven and everyone makes it into heaven. Has anyone else heard or experienced similar teachings? How can what seems like "God's stance on bad people" change like that?

Come on Elios! They had to soften up or else everyone would leave the church. The beliefs and the truth changes with the society, to fit the world as it is at the current time. Eternal truth my...

Rallymama (nice pic btw ;) ): You're right, they won't get in heaven. Like Big B said, there is only one God. If you don't want to know Him, He doesn't want to know you when the time comes. Only those God recognizes as a believer may enter. No matter how good you've been.
Major thing for christians is to believe that Gods only son died for you instead. You can be a jew, believing in the same god, being good all your life, but if you don't believe that Jesus died for you, you would simply say that Jesus was hitted, scourged (?), humiliated, nailed to the cross with the sun on his wounds and choking, all this for zip, zero, zilch. Like we could do it better.
So it is secluded, but it would also be secluded if only the good-doers may enter.
I believe however, that there will be different punishments in hell. If you have been good and didn't believe there was a god, God would treat you better then those who believed there was a god, but raised the big finger to Him.

To Joacqin: If a church is changing its believes and thruth, then it would not be a 'good' church, since God hasn't changed and never will.

Couple of comments:

"Ok, question for everyone. How do you account for the change in the teachings of the church on heaven and hell?"

What does the Bible say? Look for answers in the Bible, not the Church. I hate to say that, but some times the Church gets off track. That's why God ensured the Bible was written. Interestingly enough, there's all kinds of letters by Paul to various churches concerning all sorts of issues.

"If you don't want to know Him, He doesn't want to know you when the time comes."

I think this is a bit harsh of stance. God does want to know us and vice versa. But at the same time the choice is ours. Thus he sends Jesus to save man. We even have the Bible. We get to decide if we are going to believe in it or write it off. In other words, before we die, we've had our chance.

"I believe however, that there will be different punishments in hell."

Careful, there isn't Biblical basis for this that I am aware of. I realize it's your opinion. I just want people to know that this is an opinion rather than something out of the Bible.

Knowing Him doesn't mean knowing Him like you know acquiantances, friends, celebrities even. You know Him if you know His ways and follow them. It's even explained somewhere... don't remember where.

And not everyone is to be saved according to the Bible. Of course it leaves some margin for such a possibility, I mean it doesn't necessarily have to contradict what's written in Bible, but is highly unlikely. Eastern Orthodox Church I think includes apocastasy as a part of doctrine.

about the being one of the selected few or not thing: I think we shouldn't say a thing about this because we do not know! We're not God and only He decides! One can say for himself: "I believe in God and therefore I will go to heaven" but we cannot say "oh he doesn't follow our doctrine! tsk, tsk no hard feelings, but down you go!" (not intended as attack at the other people around here!)

As Christ says: we can judge for ourselves and if we don't act like God asks from us in the Bible, we've got a problem, but if someone does good things, don't judge him for not believing (or believing different), let that be something betweeen him and God!

Just to clear things up, Nobleman, I wasn't arguing that god didn't create the good. I also wasn't arguing that the good was created by god. I just meant that if god created the good then applying moral judgements to god is inapporpriate because god was prior to the good logically and the good is defined by whatever it says it is. Most people like to think of god as good.

@Amon-Ra
The reason why I wrote Amon-WinRar in that particular phrase and not in the other, was to make sure that you understood it was a joke. A bend out angle of your quite understandable sense. It was a joke. Man you should try that one day. Seriously :1eye:

@Big B
I commented on the point about Jesus saying that heaven was for everyone who gave their life, just to prove that it makes no sense to quote one or two sentences from the bible. You say it yourself. it is a snipplet of his teaching. Quoting more or less relevant phrases of the bible gains nothing in the discussion, nomatter how well meant they are. They can be bend and streched to everyones liking. That is manipulation. And hence not a benefactor for the discussion. So please refrain from quoting single sentences from the bible. I like it much better how you do it BigB. Using your own words :)

@BigB
You tell me pastors can help me understand the bible since it is only made of words, which can be misconceived. But you also hate to say it but some churches are off track. I should go find the answers in the bible myself. You are really making it hard sometimes. But never tell me the odds :D

@MoN
You are right if I was truly sorry about that joke I would have deleted it. But My gut comedian side can't just let that quote hang in the air. If God doesn't have a sense of humor, then paradise is way of track. You can't just write this and not notice the dirty joke. :shake:
"I've got the best gift in the entire world! you don't have to pay for it, I'm giving it to you for free! the only thing you have to do is bow down for me." @Laches
I don't think we'll ever agree unless we get together with pen and paper. Let me try again.
If you give me a rose you have planted yourself are you prior to the rose? Yes of course.
If you give me your heart are you prior to your heart? No.
Can we agree so far? Now imagine good as beeing God's heart. Now is it logical to conclude that God was prior to Good? No.

****
I can't manage to agree with myself on all the new opinions here in just a mere day. I don't have a super mind that just figures it all out. I'll have to look into it for a while. I'll edit when that has happened. :)

[ January 16, 2003, 21:29: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

@Big B
In all cases you're right. A small comment about the God-wants-to-know-us-issue:
I agree with you that God wants to know all of us and that He sent His Son. But if we don't want to know His Son or if we are not prepared, then the Son will say He doesn't know us (Judgementday) Math 25:12

@Nobleman:
I understood the joke (you lil rascal you! :D ), but I'm not sure how God will react. Making fun is okay, making fun of Him is an other... ;)

/me anjoys the conversation and loves to see whe can agree with/disagree with/encourage each other. :thumb:

Now lets talk about the people who dont get in heaven and why not

1) Will I go to heaven if I murdered 20 heathens in name of God?? They worked on sunday, wore clothes of more than one type of material, they played American football without gloves, they entered a church with poor eyesight, well hey it´s in the bible!!

2) Will I go to heaven because God or Jesus didn´t reveal himself or themselves to me, or poorly, ey God is wise and has mercy and there´s no such thing as free will, so God will understand, right??

3) What if I followed the bible with all my heart (I was Amish or something in that direction) and the suddenly it appeared I implemented the bible wrong, I should actually not have sold my daughter even though the bible approves it.. Go figure :rolleyes:

4) I didn´t believe in God, because I was raised as a atheist, hinduist, budhist, etc. But I still served the community of <insert my religion> in a "good" way.

5) LPF style (Pim came, Pim saw, Pim conquered) heaven is full, sorry Morgoth but full is full, prob only Dutchies will understand :D

P.S.
A question to the Christians here, does God know everything??

[ January 16, 2003, 23:27: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

1) Depends whether you asked for forgiveness or not. But it says that thou shall not kill.

2) No. Seek the truth. Believe.

3) Ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?" If you don't get an answer, consult the Bible (consider the New Testament - the one with Jesus in it).

4) Question your religion. Ask yourself if it makes sense. And above all, do have faith, but only if it would provide fulfillment to your life.

5) I'm not Dutch. Won't get it, I guess.

P.S.) Yes. I figure he knows if I become atheist in the next 20 years and subsequently go to hell.

[ January 16, 2003, 23:54: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

@Morgoth: Yes, He knows everything and before it happens. Plainly speaking He just gets the full scope we can't imagine even due to our limited perception and understanding.

When Jesus tells us how to do to people, He doesn't distinguish Christians, Jews or any other group. Life is life, murder is murder, charity is charity, love is love, hate is hate. And it's God who decides who's going where. The Church is not. It's a part of doctrine based on illumination who's likely to go where, but it's still not like the Church decides. Although they have (Church=all adherents, not sole clergy) the ability to help or even help out at times. No human is to judge others in terms of salvation as he simply has no power in that.

1) Depends whether you asked for forgiveness or not. But it says that thou shall not kill. Exodus 35:2 is very clear on this, sabbathworkers should be killed. So I should kill them, but I can´t because then I would go against the "Ten Commandments"..
So there´s a contradiction in the bible or I should wait till a hand comes down from the sky and strikes them down?

Why should I even ask forgiveness, I followed his word right?? BTW, how can I follow his word if his word is contradictional??

2) No. Seek the truth. Believe.
But if God or Jesus would have revealed themselves good to me, I would be Christian, just as the rest of the world.. So now I should blindly follow a religion?? Officialy there are +200 religions in this world, so the chance I come in heaven is less then 0,5% even though I always followed the word of my God


3) Ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?" If you don't get an answer, consult the Bible (consider the New Testament - the one with Jesus in it). Remind that the bible has been rebridged for a few times and a couple of chapters about Jesus have been removed

4) Question your religion. Ask yourself if it makes sense. And above all, do have faith, but only if it would provide fulfillment to your life. Question my religion? Why don´t you??


@Morgoth: Yes, He knows everything and before it happens. Plainly speaking He just gets the full scope we can't imagine even due to our limited perception and understanding.
It was a trickquestion

So God is omniscient, so God knows everything.. He even knows things he don´t know but that is logically impossible..
The same thing is with the old "God is omnipotent", this will mean that God can make a rock so heavy, God himself can´t lift it, but then God can´t still do everything..
Therefore the concept of omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent are logically impossible.
Now if you would say that God is above logic, he could make it so that 1+1=8373. Which just seems absurd to me.

If you´re now gonna say that God doesn´t know everything.. then by what right does he deserves the title "God"??

Because he created life?? Then I should call my parents "God" a scientist who just cloned a new animal "God".. Think of the question: What exactly is life??

[ January 17, 2003, 15:25: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

It's more like 'thou shalt not murder' in original text.

Well. This is certainly interesting.

There's so much to respond to, I don't know where to start. But how about with Laches... ;)

First of all, to say that good is arbitrary (based on God's whims) or that it changes depending on His viewpoint at any given time is to lower Him to human standards. It's like the gods of the Greeks -- quarreling with each other, doing things out of spite or whimsy, changing sides, etc. But my God is no such. Infinite and eternal, He has no need of changing His mind; He's already seen the end from the beginning. So that point is moot.

Point # 2 sounds completely bogus to me, sorry. Let me rephrase it slightly: I am not good. If good comes from me, then I predate the good and therefore am outside of it. Therefore, good deeds done by me serve to prove that I'm not good??!?

As for #3 (good is unknowable outside of God), you're correct. See I Corinthians 2 for an exposition.

Try to see that differently: If you're not a Christian and have never heard about God, but do good, than you know God better than a Christian who has heard much of Him, but for example limits himself to not doing evil. This is what is actually meant, especially if another passages touching the subject are taken into consideration.

One thing I cannot repeat enough:
It's not about doing good, it's about faith and believing that Jesus did the job for you.
When you believe that, then you will do good. (John 15:5, the True Vine)

Chevalier, I don't understand where you're getting that. Could you please explain further?

It seems to me that the passage clearly states that without the spirit of God, you cannot understand the things of God.

Incidentally, Laches, after rereading your post, it seems that my interpretation of your comment about God predating good is not accurate, but on the other hand I'm not sure what you're driving at. Clarify?

[ January 17, 2003, 21:02: Message edited by: Capstone ]

Try to see that differently: If you're not a Christian and have never heard about God, but do good, than you know God better than a Christian who has heard much of Him, but for example limits himself to not doing evil. This is what is actually meant, especially if another passages touching the subject are taken into consideration. o_0

Limiting oneself not to do evil is doing good, so a heathen which does "good" things knows God better than a Christian that does "good" things. So to know God, you must be heathen who does 2good" things, I´m heathen who does "good" things and I see God as not excisting, so God does not excist

:confused:

What is your definition for that "good"

[ January 17, 2003, 22:41: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

Morgoth:

The Old Testaments says, "An eye for an eye." The New Testament says, "Turn the other cheek." I am Christian; I believe in the latter. I believe that Jesus' sayings should be followed - not all of those in the New Testament.

Secondly, I do question my religion. Do you think that religious people blindly accept their religion and spend the rest of their days living happily ever after 'til they die and go to Heaven? I wonder about God, Heaven, and life in general. I've lost plenty of sleep over it. But I still accept what Christianity's main message is.

Thirdly, what we suppose and what we know is nothing compared to the scope of infinity. Sure, the idea that omniscience and such are contradictory, but that amounts nothing in the face of belief. I believe what God says, and facts and proof don't alter that. I have faith knowing God more would lead to more answers that we can't explain.

Fourthly, a believer (not necessarily Christian, I suppose) knows more about God than an atheist. Why? Because he has faith in Him; he trusts faith, not works or deeds.

Finally, like Master of Nuhn said, what you do doesn't matter. One bad apple tarnishes the whole bunch; one sin among a million good deeds ruins the whole lot. That's the point of salvation.

You should understand that I'm not here to impose my religion on any of you. Religion is not a didatic white man tell you how to live your life so as to get to heaven.

It is God telling you to accept Him for a better life.

[ January 17, 2003, 23:10: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

To paraphrase an argument I believe started by Socrates:

If an omniscient God is in fact omniscient, on what does he base acts of good and acts of evil? Look no further than the Ten Commandments and you will have found God making judgments about what are and what aren't moral human actions. Why is killing someone evil? Why is idolatry evil?

Logically, there can be only two sources of this information:
1- God came up with these ideas arbitrarily. He just picked at random and said, "You go in the 'good' category, you go in the 'evil' category, blah blah."
OR
2- God drew upon something already in existence to decide what was good and what was evil. There was some standard by which "evil" things were harmful or somehow disrespectful to God, and he saw this.

In either event, God does not seem all that omniscient. The first renders him arbitrary, and the moral rules Christians use to guide themselves as equally arbitrary. The second states that God's moral mandates were simply interpretations of societal truths: i.e. killing is bad for humanity. These are things that can be plainly seen, so whether or not God decrees them to be so is inconsequential.

Can there be any 3rd choice? People have told me that "God simply knew." How did he know? Did no one tell him? Did he not base his decisions on logic, that if we were able to reason at his capacities, we would be able to plainly see it also?

Amon-Ra

Belief is thinking, not knowing, how can I believe in God while he has never revealesd himself to me??
Yup by blindly following a religion

Can there be any 3rd choice? People have told me that "God simply knew." How did he know? Did no one tell him? Did he not base his decisions on logic, that if we were able to reason at his capacities, we would be able to plainly see it also? Where did God come from anyway

[ January 18, 2003, 11:33: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

How could Socrates have started that argument as he lived in a polytheistic society long before Jesus and when the jews were just another grubby desert people among many?

Just another little point.
Didnt god exist before he was accepted amongst great parts of the world? How come that this desert people and their beliefs are more true than any others? And why did he only show himself to some people while the rest of the world lived in happy ignorance? As everything else it is about humans and coincidence. It wouldnt have taken much for us to still be worshipping whatever old gods we had before one freaky emperor decided that the christian god sounded like a nice chap. Or if the battle of Pointiers had been lost and Europe fallen completely under the mores then we would all be muslims now. Religion and faith is an erratic and arbitrary aspect of *humanity* which may points at some higher being but I doubt that any one church is more right than any other.

Not really a desert people then. Socrates died in 399 BC, that is 600 years after Jews united into a prosperous kingdom ca 1000 BC dived ca 926 BC and fallen 722 BC (Israel, North) and 586 BC (Judah, South). At the time Socrates lived they were sort of Persian protectorate or autonomy. :)

It's also not like that God was a desert tribe's idol like many others. He's not just a patron spirit chosen from a range of options. The true issue is monotheism and this is older than Jewish conceptions. As many Greek and then Roman philosophers logically deducted there being one god and referred to Him as (the) God, the same was possible for far more ancient civilisation. I don't really know of any monotheistic concepts in Mesopotamia, but in Egypt there had been present for a long time. Of course there's some difference between that and illumination, the latter being unquestionable once you believe in God and that the illumination comes from God and not your imagination or from the devil.

This religiongame (http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm) might become usefull

Hmm I bit two bullets, one about inner moral convictions and about if god exist if he can do anything. Pretty nifty test.

The idea you're looking for, Amon-Ra, is that God drew the definition of good from His own nature. In other words, actions in accordance with His own nature are good.

You have to remember, God created the natural system and thus the natural order of things. So what you term "societal truths" are direct outward expressions of God's own inner truth. The universe being a creative expression of God's nature, it's only to be expected that His definition of good (if you wish to look at it that way) will be the best for the society that He created.

Haven't tried that religion game yet, and I'm out of time. Bye for now.

if God did "good" things, why would he do that??

The religion game is internally contradicting. Messes up cathegories, plainly speaking.

I am a christian and i do believe there is life after death, in heaven. Im positive that evolution isnt true with all the scientific facts and so many ways they have proven it wrong. (If you want to talk and yell at me or ask questions my email is meganburd@msn.com) I believe that there is only one way to heaven and eternal life, and that is through God.>> Believe and be baptised every one of you then you shall be saved. << thats a verse from the 'real' Bible. For people that believe in Christ but dont follow the Bible i have one question for you... If you believe that Jesus is real, then why arent the rest of the parts of the Bible true and real? Somethin to think about there. I believe the only way to be forgiven of your sins, yes everyone sins, is to ask, and try your hardest not to do it again. Also, no purgatory, no buying your way out of it. And that hell is not a set thing , everyone isnt going to hell if your bad. It wasnt even made for humans, it was made for satan and his angels, because they tried to overthrow God.
But god is giving you a gift, and if you dont except it your breaking his heart. and i see it as your following satan, so you become one of his followers, and burn in hell, sorry for going out so straight, but thats what i think. oh yeah and god CREATED the universe, in six days, rested on the seventh, and he created us in his own image, thats why we have love, because chaos certainly didnt create love, and if love comes from the left side of your brain, who created that? and who made the dna? certainly not primordial soup
that is nothing creating something. the second law of thermodynamics says entropy increases, so slop couldnt create everything.
~Megsta~

[ January 19, 2003, 21:21: Message edited by: megsta_kitty ]

@megsta_kitty

Because you haven´t answered my original question, let me ask it again:

You said God created the universe, who created God??
If you´re going to answer that God always excisted and therefore was not created, then how can God excist??
If you´re saying that God was created out of nothing, then you´re going against your former argument.
If you´re saying that God was created, then what right do we have to call the created God, God?
And if you´re jumping on the "proof is not necessary bandwagon", then you just have shown you don´t know the answer and just hide behind your blind belief

But.. to be fair, I´m showing my "afterlife" version to everyone here so that anyone can throw arguments, bash it, so I can defend it and find my own mistakes (with your help) and therefore improve my version:

There´s is no afterlife, when I die I become nothing, I can´t see, hear, think, or be.
I won´t wail about the missed changes since I´m nothing, I don´t have to do anything in this life to achieve nothing, save dieing. I don´t believe in God, nor I ever felt his presence so why should I?

Edit:
humping/jumping.. big difference :D

[ January 20, 2003, 15:35: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

I believe that when I die, or you die, that you will go to the place that you believe you will go to. If you believe in Heaven and Hell, then you will go to whichever you should go to based on your actions, if you are atheist, ie myself, it will be like you are sleeping, if you are Native American and have not converted to Christianity or whatever, then you will go with your god(s) when you die, if you are egyptian and believe in Ra (sp?), then you will ride down the river of (sorry, I forgot the name of it at the moment) then Ra will judge you on your actions and it will be just like your religious tradition dictates. Whew, that was a lot of writing & everybody won!! alrite!
@megsta_kitty - If you don't believe in Jesus, then you just use the Old Testament which was the "real" Bible I believe, or am i wrong? somebody plz correct me if I'm wrong on this. The New Testament is just an appendage of the Old Testament that includes "new truths". Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you or anything, just what I have read, heard, and watched.

There´s is no afterlife, when I die I become nothing, I can´t see, hear, think, or be.
I won´t wail about the missed changes since I´m nothing, I don´t have to do anything in this life to achieve nothing, save dieing. I don´t believe in God, nor I ever felt his presence so why should I? Pascal's Wager: Atheists believe that when they die, they die. Believers believe that when they die, they go to heaven (or what else have you). What does an atheist have to lose by believing in something? He can either accept what he believes in and either become dead matter (if he is right) or go to hell, or otherwise some worse afterlife (if he is not right).

In other words, if atheism is right, this world woudl be quite a hopeless and sorrowful place. Why doesn't everyone just lay down, die, and get it over with then?

---

And as a Christian, I see evolutionism and science in general as perfectly acceptable and hardly contradictory to my religion.

It's useless to try and prove God's nonexistence through logical claims of how "if he is this, then he cannot do this, for if he can do this then he is not this". That was referring to what has earlier been said here. Fighting over this matter will get you nowhere for the entire point of a possible God is that it's supposed to be so much over us that we can't even begin to comprehend it. So, you make something up which the devoted christian cannot find an explanation or a counterclaim for? He'll just answer "well I'm nothing but a human so I wouldn't understand why there's a conflict, but God knows". You can't use any arguments against something like that.

As far as the good vs. evil goes, I'm sure any one of you (even the ones that seek to blind themselves) can come up with a number of situations where the attempt to do good will result in evil. Or vice versa. Where's the line for when intentions mark more than consequences changes to consequences over intentions? It's illogical to argue over good and evil, when obviously most forms of these both cannot be realised by man.

There was a story once, which I read. It was a christian story of a man and his sons. For some reason, the story -though christian- told that the man had committed such sins that there was no way he could be saved from the fires of hell. His one last request, as he realised his mistake and came to accept his doom, was that God would show an angel to his sons to prove them that He does exist, and so save them from the same fate he would have. And God's answer was: "If your sons do not believe in me now, they will not do so even if I were to show them a message, as they would merely find another explanation for it and blind their eyes from the truth." I thought it was a wise thing to say at the time. But when you think of it, it's the same with all things. It has nothing to do with religion or the God, only us humans. Someone who completely believes in her religion and God, will not accept any amount of counterproof to deny her God's existence. No matter what you would show, for the God is omnipotent, and any proof saying otherwise is simply an example of how she, a mere human, cannot comprehend what is going on. Just as a person who believes in science will believe that there is a logical and scientifically provable explanation to every single thing there can be. No matter how you show her the existence of paranormal, or prove to her that her logics cannot know all things, she will merely think that she does not have the information. That she cannot understand, but she KNOWS there is an explanation, she just doesn't understand it yet.

It's a human trait to be as stubborn as an ass, and everyone has something that they believe in over all else. There is always that something for every man and woman that is the basis for all their beliefs, visions of world, and their own ego. When you try to destroy such a thing, you'll invariably fail. And when you succeed, assuming you'll not break that person completely, you'll risk changing the entire personality of the individual, not always for the better.

@Capstone: How can you be so sure that the universe is God's creative expression, and not his sadistic game? As I see it, God did a pretty piss-poor job creating us "flawed" individuals- or maybe, he likes watching us squirm. Is it so unfathomable?

@C'Jakob: Are you saying that unless you have INFINITE time to live, life isn't worth living? Then why wouldn't you want to drop dead right now? Your afterlife is waiting for you. Get it over with? Why get it over with? I'm having fun, I'm enjoying life, you know, that thing that to you is only a proving grounds, to me- my one shot, my one life, and I'm going to live it to the fullest.

I am happy, I don't know how else to say that. I'm an atheist, and I'm happy. I'm not miserable, there's no reason for me to be miserable. I don't feel empty, and as I've said before- an idea worth considering, the atheists I've met treasure life far more than anyone else I know.

Ponder: to whom is water more precious, he with but a few drops, or he who bathes in the ocean?

Amon-Ra

If I go to heaven when I die, why don't I just kill myself? Two reasons.

First being that I oppose killing. Of any kind. Even suicide to get to heaven.

Secondly, and more importantly, I have doubts. I'm human. I'm simply not able to stand up with 100% conviction and say that I believe in what I believe in. I admit it: I'm afraid; I have no idea what the afterlife will really be like. All I have is faith. To be honest, I don't want to die - it scares me.

If you believe that what you have - only 75 years on this place, then it's "poof!", I think that you have found nothing to place hope or anticipation. You're only trusting what you can see, not what you can believe.

Pascal's Wager: Atheists believe that when they die, they die. Believers believe that when they die, they go to heaven (or what else have you). What does an atheist have to lose by believing in something? He can either accept what he believes in and either become dead matter (if he is right) or go to hell, or otherwise some worse afterlife (if he is not right). Because I rather live this life, my only life, than waste it by crawling through dust in hope for
a better afterlife.

If you´re really that afraid of afterlife, then why don´t you follow all the other religions, just to play safe, as changes put it, you have now less than 0,5% to reach heaven.

In other words, if atheism is right, this world woudl be quite a hopeless and sorrowful place. Why doesn't everyone just lay down, die, and get it over with then? Because everyone is believing in an afterlife

The world without God is what you make of it, I want to fullfill my life before I lay down and die, just to prevent to become depressed

[ January 20, 2003, 15:37: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

@c'Jakob: Suicide is still a murder, so not the best way to go to Heaven anyway. It's also rejecting what God gave you and surrendering to obstacles.

Chevalier: That's right. I agree.

First being that I oppose killing. Of any kind. Even suicide to get to heaven.Of course, assuming that does get you to heaven.

Amon-Ra, your last quote tickled me to death. Ponder: to whom is water more precious, he with but a few drops, or he who bathes in the ocean?
Now what did you mean by that? I've heard a similar quote from the Bible -- goes something like "Who would love his master the most: the one to whom little was forgiven, or the one to whom much was forgiven?"

But let me twist it around again: who will get the most out of heaven -- us or the angels? Surely those who have experienced suffering and pain will have the greatest enjoyment of peace and comfort. God created choice. And because we can choose, we appreciate the effects of our choices so much more. But if God had created everything "perfect" and never allowed evil to develop, we just might be taking heaven for granted. Perhaps that might seem a little repugnant to you due to all the suffering going on in the world, but let me remind you that God is not responsible for people choosing evil. He simply gave them the choice and left it up to them.

Morgoth: God is eternal. No beginning. No end. He didn't have to be created; He is the Creator.

Foradasthar: You're quite correct. But the fact is, any sort of understanding of the world MUST be hung on a framework that is at its foundation a matter of belief. It's not just stubbornness; it's required. And naturally changing the foundational belief that your perspective of the world rests on changes you completely. It's only to be expected.

Morgoth: God is eternal. No beginning. No end. He didn't have to be created; He is the Creator. The universe is eternal, so God was created during the Big Bang, who created the universe?

[ January 21, 2003, 13:42: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

Since when is the universe eternal? Can you prove that one?

The universe is both space and time, you can´t divide the two, since how do you want to measure time without space and space without time?

If God wanted to create this universe, he had to act within his own space and time, which are affecting only Him, meaning God lives in his own universe, who created the universe in which God lives?

To your last question:
Eternal is till the end of time, time too has an end, when the universe collapses, time will collapse too.

[ January 21, 2003, 20:17: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

As a Muslim,I believe in god and afterlife
And you don't need to prove if God exists,the universe haven't popped in the middle of nowhere.

Thomas of Aquino provided several proofs similar to this one. Yet anyway religion is faith. Faith does not rely on proof. Assuming God exists we may give several examples of those to back our conviction (in discussion for example), but ex definitione there must not be enough proof not to require faith.

Hello! That is not what is meant at all by eternity. Eternity essentially means existing outside the bounds of time, just as infinity suggests an existence outside the bounds of space. Even Big Bang scientists will tell you that the spacetime continuum did not exist before Planck time (the beginning of the big bang). If you think the universe is truly eternal (did not have a beginning) then you will have to explain to me just what exactly started the big bang.

Hello! That is not what is meant at all by eternity. Eternity essentially means existing outside the bounds of time, just as infinity suggests an existence outside the bounds of space But if something exist outside the bounds of time, it can´t move, act, be.. when time stops excisting. You can´t measure space without time.

What is outside space, the boundaries of the universe? nothing, so nothing is infinite,
if there was something outside the universe, it wasn´t outside, it was part of the universe.

If you think the universe is truly eternal (did not have a beginning) then you will have to explain to me just what exactly started the big bang. I don´t think the universe is truly eternal, it´s just eternal in our timestandards, forever, until the forever stops existing, I cant imagine a truly eternal world, since how do you want to define it

nothing is truly eternal

and no the universe didnt pop out of nowhere, there was no "before" the universe, nor "after"

[ January 21, 2003, 22:54: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

What makes you think nothing exists outside the boundaries of spacetime? Once again, let me introduce you to your own beliefs. Before the big bang (according to modern theory), spacetime did not exist. All matter was compressed into a singularity; none of the laws of physics existed -- for space nor time were present to circumscribe them. The Big Bang produced not only the universe as we know it, but the laws that govern it and the spacetime continuum that provides the framework.

All that to show you that even matter, according to your own theory, did at one point exist outside of spacetime. How much harder is it to believe that God Himself could exist outside the boundaries?

All this talk of time and space and logic. That's great but you know what? It amounts to nothing but semantics. God exists outside of mankind's languages. He does not have to abide by the rules defined by our so called "words" with so called "meanings". The only words you need to put your stock in is the Bible, because that is God's gift to man for communication and instruction.

Old brother John puts it best in the first few verses of his gospel:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines into the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

And John knows what he is talking about. After all he's the only person so far who has been able to see all the events that take place in Revelation and in the future from his vision when he was exiled on the isle of Patmos.

Big B proves the precise reason why there's no point to arguing with a religious person. Religion is a thing unlike any other. In any debate over any thing, it's always essential to be able to prove your point to the others. But a as a religious debate goes very much like a debate with a child who's parent's have told a lie to. You can't prove otherwise.

This is not to undermine religious people. It's simply a fact the very nature of a religion is such. You can't force another to give it up as it's completely a matter of personal opinion, rather than any proof. How many times have I had to go into a debate where when the other says "prove it", I do my best to prove it. And when I say "prove it", he says he doesn't need to, for if I don't know that he's right then I'm just not enlightened enough. I mean, that's rediculous. There can be no winner in a debate like that.

Too true. To each his own. My points are merely about the enjoyment of life- whatever floats your boat, go nuts.

@Capstone: My tickling comment was in regards to the enjoyment of life. If you believe that after this life, there is another, far greater, far vaster, far more infinitely pleasant existence so long as you play your cards right, does that not detract anything from how much effort you invest in exploring this world, how much you broaden your horizons and learn about other people and their cultures? Far too many people wrap themselves up in their beliefs and refuse to hear one word otherwise, let alone inve