Yesterday the minister of justice (if that's the proper title). Proposed a law that says police can investigate people even if there isn't any evidence. In this way he thinks we can prevent terrorism from happening.

So what do you think is the more important? Privacy or crimeprevention?

There's a similar case in the states where a police official in NYC (who happens to be ex-CIA) is trying to have overturned the strict requirements for the police to establish surveillance of an individual or group. It'll be interesting to see the ruling.

There's a fine line between snooping and monitoring. Given sufficient credible evidence of potential threat, I think monitoring is necessary - but who gets to determine what's "sufficient" or "credible?" I think the line has to fall on the side of increased civil liberty, because going the other way leads to a society paralyzed by fear and paranoia. To paraphrase what several people said on the Abortion thread, understand your risks and take reasonable precautions, but don't stop yourself from living.

a favorite saying of mine that is particularly relevant today is:

there is nothing to fear but fear itself

I'm probably in the minority, but I couldn't care less what a stranger (of the crime-prevention rather than crime-perpetration type of course :) ) knows about me. I've never understood the big objection unless you plan on doing something you shouldn't. :)

I say bring it on NSA do your best, all you will find is my whites are whiter than yours.

On a serious side, this is a serious breach of personal privity. But I tell you once the government starts to monitor your actions, nothing you have is safe. Email read and stored, online purschases followed, credit history fully exaimed, your life will become transparent. Now the funny part that everybodies life is already transparent.

As an example just the other day I went to sign up at a local video store. Now to become a member of the store they need at least two pieces of identification PLUS a credit card.

Now I don't own a credit card so they asked me for my SIN (SSN for canadians). I asked what they need my SIN number for, the guy could not answer me so he got his boss. The boss went on about how since that I don't have credit card they needed my SIN number for safety reasons, now the law in canada says that you only have to give out your SIN number to your employer. So I told the guy he would hell would freeze over before he could enter my SSN number into his database(which any video store clerk could steal).

Next the manager wanted my drivers license, which again is agianst the law (a small law says that people can ask to see your drivers license but they cannot swipe, record the numbers, or posses the card). So finnaly the guy gave up and allowed me to use my student card, and I let look at my license.

So if you are worried about your security and about your personal privity, don't worry you don't have any.

The local video store tries to take the piece of id that contains everything about you. Credit Cards (our point cards) sell the information about what you buy, when you buy, and then they sell it to the marketers. Store keep records of what you buy. Email is sent in plain text (can be read by anybody). Mail is tracked so people now who you are talking to. So your life is transparent, with little effort a governemt or any single person can become you.

But don't worry, because it won't happen to you. And plus you don't know if I am telling the truth, heck I could be just outright lying to you. So don't worry.

Ignorance is bliss

[ January 11, 2003, 05:26: Message edited by: Thorin ]

It's frightening just how much information there is about us that we do not know about, and will never know about. But then I try to be as private as possible. I do not like the idea that MIcrosoft know I post here everyday, that any goverment could find out that I visit s many gaming sites, and I would love to know just how to get my hands on the information that they have about me but will never admit to.
Still, here's to the paranoid spies eh? Come the revoloution and all that ;)

Here in Sweden they have the record of over 100.000 leftist extremes on the 60's to the 90's. One of my relatives are with there. It was the SÄPO that have been recording the people, attacking our civil rights. Idiotical. Let us think what we like and get the **** out of our lives.

I suppose it's less shocking in general in Europe, certainly in the UK survailance under anti terrorist legislation has happened since the late 60's / early 70's because of the IRA campaign. The legislation itself was pretty draconian, and was just about anything goes in the name of the law.

Right or wrong, I'm not particularly bothered since the people it will tend to affect will be those that DO have something to hide, ill intentions etc. Having said that, with the sort of knowledge and information that may be collated about us all comes a large amount of responsibility. Problem is, do I trust them to keep it secure? I doubt it.

Agreed with Blackthorne there.

People have a strange misconception of how important they actually are. This is seen in many things. From how terrorists will aim their attack on the next plane they use, to the crime-preventation system using this personal information against them specifically (framing them or limiting their lives seriously). All the way to the lowest of levels, the observation cameras in big city traffics and credit cards. Always people seem to think that these are all made to observe THEIR lives, to control THEM more, to take away THEIR individuality and personal life.

Of course such systems are used for that. But not even nearly as strongly as many seem to think. I don't care one whit what the authorities know about me as long as they know the same crud on everyone else. I couldn't care less if they saw me having sex in my bedroom (going a bit extreme?) as long as they saw the same thing about everyone else. And as long as it would make sure that no crime, ever, would go unpunished. And much less crimes than you see today would ever even come to happen.

It's a choice between two things eventually. Either a knife in your back, of the back of your friend. Or then some unknown organization hunting and observing you with a camera all the time (and coming to check on you every now and then in person). And clearly, I choose the one that keeps me alive and safe. How likely is it that a common you will find yourself in the same situation as Tom Cruise in Minority Report, afterall?
Surely someone, somewhere in the world, will. But complete lack of injustice and criminality (even legalized criminality) will never disappear from this world. All you can do is to select the better of the 2 bad choices.

I'm a little sceptical about data collection, be for crime prevention or whatever, in general, by the gvt. We in germany have had bad historical experience with a gvt collecting data. The Dehomag, a subsidiary of IBM, was tasked by the austrian gvt in the mid-30s to collect and work up various demographic data with hollerit mashines, the analogue predecessors of computers.

When austria was, not quite but almost, occupied by germany, the Dehomag's business exploded - they were tasked to expand that revolutionary method to aquire statistic and personal data for the whole population of germany, and in the war, for the occupied territories as well. Of course RSHA and Gestapo worked up criminal's (mind that a criminal in that days included critical catholic priests as well as evil communists or plain liberals) data the same way.

Generally the data collected included significant property, funds, race and religion.

The lists the nazis used to find the residences of jews in the pogromes and to confiscate jewish property were produced that way. Thanks to IBM the nazis could go to work with what became renowned as german efficiency.

I'm amazed that the americans who want to own a gun as an insurance against their government don't have a problem with data collection as well. The orwellian vision of a gvt spying on its citizens isn't that far away.

Information abuse can be very harmful to an individual, it doesn't even needs to used in be racist context. Crime prevention and terror prevention are important, however, the collection of data includes the potential use for other purposes as well. What will happen to the data after beeing used for crime prevention? Will they be given to the next agency? Or be stored forever? Sure, the gvt has to be able to ensure the safety of the people - but not at all costs. There has to be found a compromise between protection of personal data and the gvt interest.

[ January 16, 2003, 11:50: Message edited by: Ragusa ]