View Full Version : Stigmata
Intentioner of the Damned
Fri, 17th Jan '03, 3:53pm
I was reading Mathetais' thread about new years resolutions here (http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003761)
It made me think of the film stigmata, which is based around true happenings.
In the film, the bible is believed to be fake and that the REAL bible was really only short and said that basically, we shouldn't build churches and places of worship and should worship in our own way.
What do you all make of this?
Sat, 18th Jan '03, 2:25am
The movie story - sucks. The questionable texts placed in the movie as some secret or whatever are in fact The Gospel of Thomas. This text actually exists, it's found and known as part of gnostic texts from Nag Hammadi. And it has no connection to stigmas nor stigmatas.
These gnostic texts are almost nohow connected to the Bible. For details you may refer here:
If you're interested in life, community and beliefs of people in Israel 2000 years ago, I'd suggest you also Qumran scrolls (also known as Dead Sea scrolls) that contain some texts from Nag Hammadi, but many more.
You'll spot that the point was to obey the "law", not to build churches and temples. However a certain person called Saul (later - Paul) changed this into worshipping of a person - Jesus. Because of this and specific descriptions on how the church and christianity was developed in it's beginning, all Qumran texts were not available publically for more than 40 years.
What does that have to do with Stigmata? Nothing.
Except that the movie script was probably written by Bush. Um, nah. It's below him. However, it's selling. Just as lame TTT movie.
Sat, 18th Jan '03, 9:27am
I have this movie, and found it very interesting. I thought it was a horror movie until about 3/4 of the way through. The messages (that you should worship God, and not the church) were pretty similar to my own beliefs.
Anyway, after seeing this, I had been meaning to do a little research on the Gospel of St. Thomas and check it out, so thanks for the link, Extremist.
What is the Catholic Church's official position on this?
[ January 18, 2003, 09:29: Message edited by: Nutrimat ]
Sat, 18th Jan '03, 2:25pm
There is no official position on scrolls. The person responsible for dealing with it is called Ratzinger - and the stuff he deals with is always packed in a sort of secrecy. Modern inquisition.
However, the church official position on the movie is that it is aimed against the church. As I've said above, I find the movie story idiotic and I don't think that such movie could be aimed against anyone. It would be just as if the movie called Flatliners is used as a proof of afterlife, while there is no connection between that movie and actual near-death experiences.
Sat, 18th Jan '03, 2:33pm
The TTT movie is NOT lame. Don't diss it.
I have seen that movie and kinda liked it. And it aimed against anyone? Idiotic.
Me too, Tal.
[ January 18, 2003, 19:57: Message edited by: Eze ]
Sat, 18th Jan '03, 7:17pm
If anything, I'd say the movie's version of what Christianity should be is much closer to my idea of it than what it was historically and what it is today.
[ January 18, 2003, 19:18: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
Intentioner of the Damned
Mon, 20th Jan '03, 11:18am
I totally agree with Tal on this one. i never really wen to church through my life but was brought up with christian beliefs.
@Extremist: I guess the only reason i bought up the stigmata part was because i couldn't remember any of the details of what i was refering to but the film contains the detail. Sorry if the topic was slightly misleading. But cheers for the detailed breakdown. :D
Mon, 20th Jan '03, 7:08pm
I can see that my work is cut out for me! :good: ;)
The question really boils down to this ... what about The Bible (the books of the Old and New Testaments) is so special? Why aren't other books included (like the Gospel according to Thomas) and why are the books in there included?
This is really a good question. Its difficult to ask people to put their faith in Jesus Christ when they are not sure about the facts we "know" about Jesus and God.
This could be a very long reply .... in fact I just deleted about 4 paragraphs that were growing longer and more complex. So lets just focus on the Gnostic Texts you're thinking about.
There was a deeply rooted philosophical movement in the 1st and 2nd centuries called Gnosticism. They taught that salvation was reached by knowing the right things (Gnosis is Greek for Knowledge). The Gospel of Thomas is heavily influenced by this movement. It does not teach that salvation is brought through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Instead it teaches a code of thinking and living that is "based" on Jesus, but not completely reliant upon His Grace. This clearly flies against the things Jesus said and taught.
Does this mean that the Modern Church has it right? Not at all. Just this morning I was talking to my wife at how the church today is butchering true spirituality. Sometimes I feel like the tallest midget on the basketball court ... we've just not taken Jesus' words (and the rest of the New Testament) seriously enough.
Christianity is not about building in a church, it is about a dynamic relationship with the Living Savior. We should "worship" in our own way! Just be careful...."worship" means to live a life that brings glory and praise to God. We have to start with solid, accurate definition of who God is, and what sort of actions/attitudes glorify Him. From there, we are FREE! to live our lives with Him.
Take my own personal journey as an example. I was raised in the church, trained to be a pastor, and for 4 years served as the senior pastor of a mid-sized church. As the spiritual leader of 250+ people, I was talking the talk, walking the walk and getting lots of acclaim from other people and pastors in the region.
Soon I began to see that the church I was serving thought God was a joke. Their "religion" was shallow and hypocritical and soon they began to attack me and my family. When I realized that the Church and the Denomination I served would not take the Bible seriously I was faced with a difficult decision ... which resulted in me leaving the ministry and taking a secular job.
For the past four years, I've been working, reading and thinking ... trying to figure out what went wrong. What I've finally realized is that the flaw is not in the Bible I was reading or in the teaching that I lived by (or tried to live by). The fatal flaw was the people had built a huge set of practices and rules on top of the Bible (at least initially it was built on the Bible) and that they now lived to serve their own created rules, not to serve God.
Right now I'm working on building a church that focuses on the foundation, not on their own created set of practices. I don't give a rip about small groups, music selection, pews vas chairs etc. All that matters is that we take our faith seriously, we actually try to worship, and continue to cling to Jesus Christ.
Wow ... this is a long post! Sorry to get carried away, but this is a very real topic for me! :good:
Mon, 20th Jan '03, 7:18pm
Math good luck!!
Well I'll want to give my two cents as well so here goes!
Church is not the goal it's the means which can help you reach your goal.
It has taken me quite some time to realise this, but it's not the church that matters, but my personal involvement with God and Jesus Christ. A church can help you develop this bond, or it can kill this bond either by being to strict and too much "God is A Strict Judge" type church, or the other way around, by claiming that the bible hasn't really happened, that Jesus is only a good example for us, but nothing more.
As I read this again it sounds abstract, but this has taken huge amounts of struggling!
Mon, 20th Jan '03, 7:24pm
Welcome back, Math! I've been waiting for your input on some of these topics, and it was worth the wait. :) Many people forget to draw the line between spirituality and religion, and I think it's an important distinction. For me, too, it's the worship that's important, not the forms.
BTW, check your PM... ;)
[ January 20, 2003, 19:27: Message edited by: Rallymama ]
Mon, 20th Jan '03, 9:03pm
I don't agree with Stigmata, being a Christian. We believe that the Bible is God's actual Word. What rating is Stigmata? Is it violent?
Mon, 20th Jan '03, 10:46pm
Well Math we may no agree on the basics on religion but it is wonderful to see that even really religios people can spot what is my main peeve about all the churches in the world. They are more about the church and the rules of men than about whatever the teachings of their divine being is.
Tue, 21st Jan '03, 1:11am
:yot: This is off-topic (I haven't seen Stigmata and so cannot comment), but I wanted to express my support for Mat. Don't expect your church to be big though. :) Too many people itching for rituals and/or deep mysteries -- and too few wanting to make a total commitment to Christ. But those who are truly hungering will come -- and bringing just one sheep into the fold is worth the effort. May God bless you and help your ministry!
Intentioner of the Damned
Wed, 22nd Jan '03, 10:38am
@TeenS: Stigmata are marks resembling the wounds on the crucified body of Christ.
I had to use this in the topic/question because i couldn't remember the facts of what i was trying to put across, and the Dead Sea Scrolls featured in the film Stigmata.
Wed, 22nd Jan '03, 9:06pm
I saw the movie about a year ago. I liked it. Or at least it was ok.
But I don't believe in god so...
But the movie was cool...
/me is dizzy...weehee
Thu, 23rd Jan '03, 2:25am
Teensabre: The movie is fairly violent (it carries an R rating, which is 17+), it shows a person being wounded (nails driven through the wrists and feet, and whipping) by an unseen force, and there is a fair amount of blood. Like I said, until about 3/4 of the way into it, I thought it was a horror movie.