I do not purport to state that the Israelis have not made their far share of mistakes, blunders, and downright cruel acts, but I need someone to explain to me the staunch defense of the Palestinians that I have read here.

I am not an expert on the history of this dispute, but from what I have seen in recent years, givin the fact that I live in an admittedly pro-Israeli nation, is that time and time again the Israelis have come to the negotiation table, only to have the PLO, Hamas, or some other group set off a bomb in a bus, nightclub, or cafe'. I know that the Israelis are difficult to negotiate with, but the Palestinians make it too easy for the Israelis to justify pounding them. Maybe it is the slant that the US press puts on it, but it seems that the Israelis are targeting what they believe to be terrorist buildings, though at times it is easy to see that they are just taking retribution upon the Palestinians.

I believe that the Israelis, as the technologically and militarily stronger of the two should be held to a higher standard than the Palestinians. But how can they be asked to let up when every time the try to negotiate, they are attacked. I don't know of any nation that will enter into negotiations while attacks against them continue.

I tried, but was unsuccessful to find an existing topic on this subject. If this is an existing thread, please let me know.

Rant start:

I know that this is a heated debate, and I ask for everyone to stay calm, make logical arguments, and respect each other’s views. Counterpoints are fine, but not at the expense off others. I know that I have been guilty of this in the past, but I am doing my best to make sure I don't do it again. Believe it or not, as most of you are probably aware, this forum is a lot more fun when you stop bashing other participants. By that I mean more fun for you as well as them.
Rant over! :cool:

This is what i have been told

There wasn't a real Israel country until U.S. and U.K. joined forces and aid the Jews to forcefully take over the land. Israelis were not very happy with the land they had, so they invaded more lands and, again, forcefully occupied them and established Jewish colonies (i don't have the correct translation for this term). Now, the Palestinians (Muslims) wants a land for their own. Behaving like other Muslims when dealing with Jews and
Christians that threatened their lives and belief, they simply fight. Yes, this does give the Israelis a good, justified reason to kill. However, U.N. had, for quite sometime now, came to a resolution that the Israelis must leave those occupied territories. Israelis, obviously don't want to leave their newly occupied area, keep pointing out that they don't want to leave because of the hostility and potential danger that the Palestinians have on them. On the other hand, Palestinians said the reason for hostility comes from the occupation of their lands.

This is how the news is being reported here in Malaysia and Singapore, they always refered to these lands as "Jewish occupied area" or "Jewish colonies". Under such terms, wouldn't you think that the Palestinians have every right to fight for their land and the Israelis are to give up their occupied area.

Of course, one could argue that, even if the Israelis given up their occupied areas, they are still not safe from attack, given the fact that they are the only Jews in the area.

For me, since the U.N. had already agreed with an "Israelis must give up occupied area" resolution, the Israelis have to follow that order. Everyone have to listen to U.N. (that goes for America as well). If Israel still experience hostilities and threat after they have given up the land, well, we can talk about it in U.N. later.

Suggestion:

Before this topic gets too emotional, perhaps those of you that may be interested in the background to the current situation will want to read this (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument) from the UN.

I haven't had a chance to read all of this myself, but it should give a reasonably accurate picture of how it's all happened over the last 100 years, or at least the start.

Thanks Viking. I have read the first 20 pages or so, and I have learned a lot already.

All I will say is that Isreal are occupying territory that are supposed to be the Palestinians, Isreal forcefully took these territories as a buffert to their neighbours that really did not like a new country in their midst. Palestinans are treated worse than the blacks were in South Africa and they have no government, no leadership, no schools, no nothing. What little they do have is most often demolished by Israeli tanks and bulldozers. There are kids in Palestinian refugee camps that are third generation living in a tent out in the desert with nothing. It is not overly hard to recruit people to a resistance against the supressors of the Palestinians nor is it even very hard for convince someone to blow themselves up on a bus just to make the slightest dent in the lives of the people they have been brought up to hate. The Isrealis willingly wreck anything remotely like organisation for the Palestinians thus wrecking any part they could have negotiated with. Leaving groups like the Hizbollah and Hamas be the Palestinian face to the world, and that aint a pretty face.

While Isreal is a reasonable democratic and unified society, with a legitime government who is recognized more or less everywhere. Yet everytime they come to the negotiating table all they offer the Palestinians are crumbs, they dont want to part with the territory they have occupied for the last 40 years nor have they any interest in seeing a real Palestinian state. The current government in Isreal seems to be offended that the Palestinians just dont lie down and die or atleast accept that they are beated and act like the vermin Sharon seems to think they are. If Israel really wants to live in safety they better make the first steps, they better start working for an infrastructure and a build up of a society in the palestinian territories. For every school they demolish, for every stone throwing kid they shoot they create another lunatic with C4 on his chest. It is a school book situation of a lose lose situation.

The Palestinians should already had done what Gandhi did in India and what Mandela to some extent did in South Africa, passive resistance. Which most of them practice, or even no resistance at all but there are fringe groups that do not accept this. If they had the world would not sit down and watch what is happening there if the Palestinians never struck back.

Are you talking about the West Bank and the Gaza strip? Because if you are, there is some serious debate on that. The first thing I want to say is; If you believe the Bible is full of crap, stop reading now, but the Bible is the only decumentation we have to go back 3000 years. Anyway, the Isrealites had the West Bank and the Gaza Strip for centuries, but when they were taken into slavery by the Egyptions in about 1500 b.c., the Palestinians moved in there. When the Isrealites escaped from the Egyptions, they wanted those two places back but the Palestinians wanted it too, so it's been a fight ever since. The question of 'right and wrong' cannot be awnsered, but I ask yourself this... which side is bombing buses full of nuns and children and women? Palestine.

I have limited information on it too. But I have read/skimmed a few books on it before.

Yeah, a lot of it goes back to Britain and Turkey. Things might very well have been different if Turkey was allowed to just utterly crush the Palestinians, and drive them into the sea to drown.

I have also seen a tiny little bit of evidence where the Jews (in Europe) were buying land from Syria, back in the 1890's. I don't really remember how much, but the general idea was they were trying to make an area for the few Jews that were still living over there. I'm guessing there was some kind of "intermediary". The Palestinians say Syria did not have the authority to sell land.

Also, the Palestinians (Arafat, baby! Christ he's old!) were offered RECOGNIZED STATEHOOD back in the mid-1950's. But Arafat specifically said they did not wish for a Palestinian state that did NOT include Jerusalem. He figured it would be too tough to get it once they were tied down, so he left the "option open". The offer was made, and they said the terms were unacceptable to them; for the specific reason that Jersualem was not a part of their nation. The Jews said they'd keep their borders open to them, so they could visit their Holy Rubble.

The Palestinians are a unique bunch. They have ties to Mecca, but also Jerusalem. The rest of the Muslims could very well care less for them, for that simple fact alone. But because it's Jews, shooting at Muslims, they all stick together.

What would really be cool is if the Buddahist's found out they were distant cousins of the Jews, and harnessed some of their killer instincts, and saw all the Muslims as threatening their brothers-in-arms. Can you imagine some elite Buddahists, without fear of death or pigs or needing a carpet with which to pray, hunting Muslims?

Wicked!

Are you sure it is the same Arafat ejsmith? I always thought he rose among the ranks of the PLO during the 80's.

Yep, it's the same Arafat (the dude's, like, 80 years old fer frick sake!). I don't know when he first got started, but I'm pretty sure he was there before the 80's. That's maybe when he first started getting in the international spotlight.

Mystra's Chosen. Are you really considering the bible as a historically source and basis for a landclaim in the 21-century ? And it's by far not the only documentation. There are also some agyptian, babylonyan, greek, assyrian, phoenician and so on sourcers, peacefully resting in some museums.

And by they way, it was the romans who drove the jews from their land, so around the first and second century ad. That was punishment for some jewish upheaveals.

And the Palestinians are a mix between arabs, crusaders and jews who happend to be next-door neighbours and practicesd interracial-marriage.

[ March 29, 2003, 01:26: Message edited by: Yago ]

I was talking about the Egyptians. They took the Jews into slavery (something like 200 years), they then escaped and wandered the desert (for another 40 years). The bible is also the most recognized historical documentation. Most of it has been proven.

Also, the Romans did't drive the Jews out of their home, they came in and contolled it.

Who has the the most right to live in Haifa, a Palestinian Christian Arab born there in 1980 or a Jew who was born in New York in 1960 or Warsaw in 1950 or in Melbourne in 1940?

As far as I understand it, people should be allowed to live in the place where they were born. So why should people be kicked out because they are the wrong brandname?

Well, the Jews would've been born there if they had not all fled in the 40's. Anyway, that's not the point I'm trying to make. It's a pointless war that killing too many people for my tastes(one is too many for my tastes). Both sides are commiting atroscities, so I say it should stop because if one side wins, the other loses.

So, what were the Jews fleeing in the 1940s and where were they fleeing from?

well, there was that whole Nazi invasion thing and not to mention them being massacred like cattle. But it turns out that they were fleeing TO Isreal (my bad). Also, Palestinians don't get out of there country much. So why should the Jews (or the Palestinians) get out? I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. I just try not to take sides (although it is hard) because it's not happening to me and I don't know what it's like to be bombarded by tanks, or having to worry for your life every time you walk into a coffee shop or step on a bus. No one has the right to tell either side they're wrong.

I was talking about the Egyptians. They took the Jews into slavery (something like 200 years), they then escaped and wandered the desert (for another 40 years).yeah, I know you meant that, but the thing which usally is known as "jewish diaspora" (the exilation of the jewish population from their country, which lead to their state of "being scatterd nearly all over the world.) startet under the roman rule around the 1-2 century ad. And it's this "diaspora" which is one main part of the problem. The jews started their return to israel at the end of the 19th century. This Return accelerated after WW2.


The bible is also the most recognized historical documentation. No, no, no. I am no historian, but you don't need to be historian, to know, that that's not true. It may be "recognized" by some fundamentalilistic so-called christians. For an Historian it's nothing else as Mithology, which tells about the creator (i.e. the writer, not "god") and the way the world was seen in his time.

To make it short, Moses has nothing to do with today politics. Except maybe in the USA. But a Solution of this conflict can't be based on a landclaim which is based on the moses story in the Bible.

And anyway, protestants and catholics also claimed, that "god" punished the "jews" because the "killed" Jesus Christ. That's the same rubbish as taking the moses story and say, the jews are the "only" ones, who have a right to live in Israel.

[ March 30, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: Yago ]

That is an extremly difficult topic. I try to make as short as possible. (If anyone can confirm or correct my points, I'd be happy. My memory is very bad and I lend my "wise book" on this topic to my sister. ;) )

From my point of view, Israelis and Palestinians share an equal amount of guilt(if we want to speak about that). Palestinian suicide bombers blow themselves up whenever there is an diplomatic approach from the israeli government and the israeli army strikes whenever a similar approach comes from the palestine administration. It seems that hardliners on both sides have already agreed to block every attempt to make peace because they fear to loose their power.

The palestinians are very desperate by now. Terroristic attacks are the only way they know to defend themselves, because all other means don't appear to work anymore. They terrify the israeli population and damage the economy by driving away tourists and potential investors.
I can understand the frustration and the fatalism of the palestinians but I cannot agree with their means. Blowing up some israeli civilians is nothing more than stupid. Their main goal should be to drag these civilans on their side but they accomplish the contrary.

If you compare the negative sides to both israelis and palestinians, the israelis can be quite happy. Their only problems are the possibility of dying in an attack an losing their job. The palestines have a lot more problems. Having a bad memory, I can only post some examples :

- About 90% of the Westbank is in israeli hands because of entpropriation. Therefore, palestinians need a special permission for building houses, digging wells and suchlike. To add to their discomfort, the restricions for these projects are much more serious as if an israeli did plan them. For example, israeli settlers may dig wells as deep as they need to, palestinian wells have to be much more shallow.
Given the extreme shortage of water in this region, palestian farmers are hovering on the verge of bancrupty every day.

- Speaking of farmers: They do not have the right to sell their products in israel or export them. All they can do is selling them to a special israeli organisation to inferior prices. This organisation resells the products in israel and also exports ehem, labelling them as "Product of Israel".

- Everyone who wants to work needs also a special permission, which is as hard to come by as the permissions to build something.

- Political Parties or similar organisation are strictly forbidden in the occupied territories. They tried communal polls once, but since PLO-Members won the most of the posts as communal chairman, the military administration declared the polls invalid and installed people after her liking.

- The palestinian population is constantly aware of the oppression. Most of them see the israeli settlements or soldiers every day. In Bethlhem, about 300 settlers guarded by 1000 to 2000 soldiers live between 200.000 palestinians. Every main highway or road has at least one checkpoint. Most of the time the palestinians have to wait several hours before passing and the soldiers even don't let them pass in a case of emergency. Guess how many children are born at these checkpoints or how many people died because the ambulance did not reach the hospital in time.

There is more but I cannot remember everything.
This constant oppression is driving the palestians into desperat measures that don't accomplish anything because of the growing violant reactions of the israeli army. One side has to let up. Either the palestenians (at least the Fatah-Militia which was once under control of Jassir Arafat) stop the terroristic attacks and persecute members of Hamas and Islammic Djihad or the israelis withdraw their forces from the autonomic zones and dissolves the settlements. But I don't see happening anything of this in the near future.

)If Arafat makes peace, fundamentalists will kill him and take over the country in a revolution (popular or not). If Sharon makes peace, Hamas will probably kill him too. If not Hamas then surely Isreali fundamentalits.

Yago,
I'm not saying that the whole bible is historical fact (I'm not so linear :D ). I am saying that much of the bible has been proven and it's a good link to ancient Middle East and such places.

This thing is really complicated. But my feeling is, that the Israelis are more wrong than the Palestinians.

And I think Sharon is a nutcase and has worsend the situation and, in my view, is the main responsible for the suicide-bombings. His total irrational hardline stance against the Palistanians has turned them into Sucicide-bombers in the first place and gave Sharon the, from him expected, excuse, to get even harder on the Palestinians. This, of course, led to more Sucide-Bombings.

And by the way, israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin won the Nobel Prize for making peace with the palestinians and was assinated by an JEWISH EXTREMIST, who obviously didn't like peace. This murder ended the peace-process and paved the way for the nutcase, who's in charge now.

[ March 31, 2003, 00:48: Message edited by: Yago ]

Arafat is just as big (and dangerous) a nutcase as Sharon. He could've finshed all this business during the Camp David peace talks because Isreal really wanted peace. They offered them alot of Isreali land (including more than half of Jurusalem, a holy Jewish city).

Arafat has never wielded half again as much power over the Palestinians as the Israeli primeminister/president wield over the Israelis.
Arafat has never been able to stop suicide bombers and terrorist attacks completely. Hamas,Hizbollah and Ismalic Jihad has never been under his control so much of what Israel tend to demand of him is things he can not give.

This I find is incredible important and one of the main reasons it must be the Israelis that makes the first moves just because they can. It is not like one branch of the Israeli army has its own agenda and doesnt listen to Sharon, every atrocity the Israeli do are done in the name of all Israeli's as they have been ordered by a democratic elected government. No one has elected Hamas and Hizbollah to speak for the Palestinians, they may have alot of support but these are fringe groups. Extremists. Suicide bombings are the acts of lunatics belonging to an extreme group acting on their own while the Isreali army is an army belonging to a democratic society and which every act is an act by the entire Israeli people.

First of all,

And anyway, protestants and catholics also claimed, that "god" punished the "jews" because the "killed" Jesus Christ. I don't know where you got that. Check your facts before making statements like that.

Back to topic, IIRC Israel was artificially created after WWII. The Palestinians have a right to that land, even without the argument that Israel was ordered to relinquish the territory. They were dispossessed. If it's any people who should understand the Palestinians it should be the Israelites.

The real grudge between these two nationalities is that both want Jerusalem as their capital for their nation. They both have some right because the Jerusalem did serve as a capital for the Jewish nation until it was enslaved by the Romans and the Palaistinians have the same right because they are the descentants of a nation that was created by the crusaders and called the kingdom of Jerusalem. Nice eh; Another problem is that the Israel does not want (due to religious restrictions) live with other religions people. I know this is strange but don't forget that in Israel live the zealots of Jewism mostly. Also they really would love to have the whole region and that is what they are trying to achieve. The truth is that the Palaistinians are treated like animals and worse by the Israeli army and these suicide attacks you see (and this is a new phainomenon) are the outcome of this treatment. Are they justified; no, but they are desperate and rightfully angry. Did Israel's goverment really ever tried to reach a peacefull solution i don't think so because they want too much and they give too little. The Palaistinians on the other hand want too much in the exchange of almost nothing. Right now they have reach the point of no turning back (there is blood on the hands of both that cries out for revenge and they are willing to take revenge) and things can only get worse. As far as for Bible. i want to underline that this is not the whole story our religions (catholics, orthodox you name it) have taken out the pieces they didn't like, this goes for the gospels to. The problem is that the UN have a thirty years old decision stating that the Israel must withdraw from the Palaistinian territory but they are still have done nothing. So who is wrong in this case. For me Israel because it has the power to do something and it is using this power to do the wrong things.

What is so frustrating about the current situation is that peace was so close only 10 years ago.

I'm not suggesting that the Oslo accords (1993) were perfect and gave everything to everyone, but it contained a framework for a peaceful settlement of the key issues.

Unfortunately, for extremists on both sides this was not enough and they have subsequently derailed the process because they want it all.

To address the topic:

To start with the question of who's to blame is never going to get the process forward. Why, because it really doesn't matter who is to blame. It doesn't matter because looking backwards will never achieve anything in terms of a peace process. The only way to peace is to look forward without getting stuck in the past. Until they can do that, nothing will be achieved. The longer it is allowed to go on, the harder it will be, however, since positions only become more entrenched.

I dare say that one thing we will all agree on is that the current situation in Israel / Palestine is unsatisfactory in the extreme. It must be addressed from both sides, since at the moment everyone loses.

Arafat is just as big (and dangerous) a nutcase as Sharon. He could've finshed all this business during the Camp David peace talks because Isreal really wanted peace. They offered them alot of Isreali land (including more than half of Jurusalem, a holy Jewish city).After I saw the map of the would-be palestinian state, I would not have agreed to the plan either. It was an impudence. A country which is divided in three parts and surrounded by Israel?No way. Arafat could not agree to that.

The Taba-Plans are another matter. They are sound. I don't know why Arafat did not take the chance.

Charlie, i fully agree with the second part of your post.

To the first part of your post:

I don't know where you got that. Check your facts before making statements like that. Well, i got that from school -> history.

It's common heritage of the western world, so it's easy to find something on the net.

http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_query


In some countries Jews were welcomed, and they enjoyed long periods of peace with their neighbors. In European societies where the population was primarily Christian, Jews found themselves increasingly isolated as outsiders. Jews do not share the Christian belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and many Christians considered this refusal to accept Jesus' divinity as arrogant. For centuries the Church taught that Jews were responsible for Jesus' death , not recognizing, as most historians do today, that Jesus was executed by the Roman government because officials viewed him as a political threat to their rule. Logically, those "ideas" are also found in the US.


Actively fueling extreme antisemitism, the "radio priest" Father Charles Coughlin maligned Jews on his national program that reached millions of listeners. In the June 12, 1936, issue of his newspaper Social Justice, Coughlin castigated Jews as "Christ killers," "Shylocks," There is also a famous play from Shakespeare, which deals with this issue: The Merchant of Venice.

I still think it is absolutely wrong to decide over the fate of millions of people, just because someone "believes" that "god" has given a specific land to a specific people, because that is "someone's" interpretation of the bible.

The conflict hat to be solved in a fair and rational manner, not in a delusional manner based on bible-interpretation.

[ March 31, 2003, 18:22: Message edited by: Yago ]

Israel v Palestine, who is in the wrong, or at least more wrong Does it matter who is wrong and who is right??

Yago,

You are correct. But I was referring to today, post-WWII even. Those statements made by the Catholic Church (I cannot speak for Protestant ones)were decades if not centuries ago when The Catholic Church exercised more power. But if you check official Catholic doctrine not just statements made by irresponsible Catholics and clergy, you will find that it's not the case. Jesus Christ was a Jew, the epitome of one. (Of course Jews may not agree with me. ;) )

P.S. Shylock was a central character in The Merchant of Venice.

Jesus Christ was a Jew Ermm... Jesus was soooooo not Jew

What was he then, Christian? :rolleyes:

Well, if you ever read the bible, you would have known that Jesus had big problems with Jewish traditions, like circumsisions..

He claimed that if it was necessary, God would make it so that it needn't be done...


IIRC, Jesus was a jezuit(sp?)

Charlie, I was just using the example of the past miss-deeds of the churches, to enforce my point, that conflicts in the 21-century have to be solved by rational means, not questionable belief-systems.

Yep, Shylok, i am Y(I)ago ;)

But I agree, Jesus was born a jew. That's a fact that can't be twisted. It's even written in the bible. :D (Of course I wouldn't rely on one source only) :D

[ April 01, 2003, 11:52: Message edited by: Yago ]

Jesus had problems with Jewish law in that the scribes and pharisees (and other Jews as well)followed the letter of the law and not its spirit. They were hypocrites too, flaunting their 'holiness.' But Jesus didn't want to do away with the law. He observed it like any proper Jew would.

IIRC, Jesus was a jezuit(sp?) He wasn't Jesuit. The Jesuits (Society of Jesus) were founded by St. Ignatius of Loyola. He is the patron saint of my alma mater. ;)

Yep, Shylok, i am Y(I)ago Did you name yourself from the character in Othello? :)

yep ;)

But back to the topic. Israelis and Palestinians have to live peacefully on the same land together. They better start today, not tomorrow.

I think there has to be a huge political (not military) intervention, either by the U.S or the European Union, to make this happen. The sooner, the better.

And i'd prefer that the EU would take a leading role, not the US, to solve this conflict. Because frankly, I don't think the US is up to that task, because there's to much domestic quarrel inside the US concerning this conflict, which prevents the US goverment from taking a sober look at things.

On the other hand, the EU is still too weak, to play the role in world politics, which europe (according to the huge combined economic power of the european contries) should. So, I am rather pessimistic. :(

The situation now is just absurd. The EU tax-payer pays for investments in infrastructure (to further the peace process and make life saver for Israelis and Palestinans), while at the same time, the US tax-payer pays for military-equipment (to protect the Isreali citizens), which is used to destroy exact the european made investions :( . I don't think this is making the life of anyone safer or is a wise way to use goverment ressources.

Anyway, I stress it again, a solution concerning the fate of millions of people has to be based on reason, not on Bible or Koran interpretation.

And dammit, a state has to protect ALL his people, even if they are not Jewish or christian, but moslem.

[ April 01, 2003, 15:27: Message edited by: Yago ]

AFAIK the Koran only ever speaks of the Children of Israel in good terms referring to moral or spiritual lessons. It has nothing to say regarding modern day Israel nor Jews living there. Palestine or Israel (the country) is not even mentioned.

i have recently written an 800 word essay on the history of this whole topic. ill post it next time im at home. It is a bit opionised, but what can i say, im only human.

stay tuned for more info.