View Full Version : Why do you dislike the US?
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 3:11pm
I've been reading a few articles lately about this and it got me curious. I also saw a thread below about what topics here are the most irritating to people and I had an idea. I went back, and unscientifically looked over the topics that showed up for the last year. 25% of them contained negative remarks about the US. Of those, 60% (59.38 actually) were started by non- US citizens. Of the topics started by Americans, a number (should've thought to count at the time) didn't start out as touching on the US but were more general. Another interesting point is that the numbers are a bit skewed because two people, and one in particular, who are American just started a large number of threads in a relatively short time frame. The threads started by non-US citizens that become critical cover a wider timeline imo and those starting the threads are a little more diverse, though, there are strong consistencies there.
Now, some of those criticizing strike me as not being dogmatic and rather reasonable. Just as a way of example, and I hope they don't mind, I'd point at Sprite and Viking. Both can be crtical of the US but at the same time you see posts where they also agree. What is interesting to me though is the number of posters that have nothing positive to say about the US over the course of a year or do so only as a perfunctory way such as, "I don't hate the people, I just hate...."
So, how about it. Why do you
1) personally dislike the US? culture, policy, etc
2) think other people dislike the US?
Now, here is what I'm requesting not to be included in the responses. Lubby dubby crap about how you really don't dislike the people you just... yada yada yada. We'll assume that to begin with just for the sake of discussion (if you really dislike the people, please state so too though.) This isn't a veiled attempt to search fro compliments, don't want em. I suppose if you feel you absolutely must to give your full rounded opinion go ahead but... well, you get the idea. Because of the nature of the request platitudes aren't convincing.
I'm also requesting that if you disagree with what is being said about the US that you refrain from debating it in this thread as it will... potentially cause it to degenerate I suppose.
I've got some thoughts on this now, but am going to sit back for a while and just read. Maybe I should even open a new thread to talk about some of the things these articles have brought to mind.
I'd also like to thank anyone willing to answer in advance for taking their time to do so; I look forward to reading any responses. thanks.
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 3:34pm
Well, most of the people dislike Bush not US.
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 3:47pm
That's an interesting question. And I think it's nearly always (well at least for me) a Love-Hate realationship.
I love America. And I hate America. Both is true.
I love american movies (from Star-Wars to Casablanca, from John-Wayne western (which I watched with my Grand-Ma) to Matrix. )
I love american Books and writers. (from Grisham to Mark Twain and Edgar Allan Poe).
I love Coca-Cola and Mc-Donalds (but I shouldn't eat there too much)
I love the US-Constitution (especially the first amendment). I love James Madison and Thomas Jefferson (even if he was a slave holder (no one is perfect)) and their Ideas.
I love American CPRG Games :)
But I dislike US Foreign Policies, George Bush, Ashcroft and Donald "old Eurpe doesn't count" Rumsfield.
And I don't like being told "you are either 100% for us (i.e. the Bush administration) or 100% against us"
Or things like: "If the French don't do what we say, we just boycott them"
[ April 03, 2003, 15:59: Message edited by: Yago ]
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 4:31pm
I was just going to post "Americans are just fat nasties." and leave it at that. But since this is the Alley, I can't.
In the end, there is a certain amount of "envy" abou t it all. I'm not saying all the other nations wants to be the US; I'm saying that they all want the economy strength and luxuries and ability that we have. They want all the "good" things, without having the "bad".
Europe (and other nations, but I have had more exposure to European history than anything else) is in a pretty interesting position. They've had to live so close to one another, with so many different languages defining their various cultures, that "domestic issues" have become second nature.
Look at the movies that come out of Europe. They are all dramas, with maybe a little action thrown in as a plot device. You can have full nudity, and the movie is still "PG"; but throw in some murders, and the movie becomes "NC-17".
I think America could learn (God, if we could only ship the all the Puritans off so some uncharted desert isle, for a while) quite a bit from the Europeans and Asians.
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 5:33pm
(God, if we could only ship the all the Puritans off so some uncharted desert isle, for a while) That's what we did :shake: :thumb:
All you southern baptists and calvinists, greetings from the motherland :wave:
[ April 03, 2003, 17:50: Message edited by: Yago ]
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 6:55pm
It is a love hate relationship for as for many others, I see all the movies, I have plenty of American friends the basis of what the US was founded on is something to be very proud of.
What I do not like is what it seems to have degenerated into. The democracy in the US is in my eyes weak and abused and the will of the people (which all too often sadly doesnt even seem to exist) is completely ignored by the ruling elite. An electoral system just doesnt work very well with a good democracy.
I also really dislike that the US has reintroduced religion into politics, something I had hoped would be isolated to small theocratic horrostates in the Middle East where the people were surpressed. Faith and politics are a dangerous mix in my book.
There are plenty of things that I dislike, the entire 'you can make it if you just try hard enough' attitude and the view that it is more or less your own fault if you dont make it is something I find to be a pretty nasty view of humanity. The list can go on.
Of course the foreign policy is mightily important as well, the US arrogance when it comes to foreign policy is annoying especially since they have no real reason for being arrogant except for the fact that they have hte biggest stick. If they had been successful in what they claim they are and if they had been as benevolent throughout history as they was in Europe after WW2 I could take the arrogance but they havent so it jars my ears.
Now I am going to say what you dont want to hear Laches, I like the people I like individuals. I like you, I like most people here on the boards. Heck I even think Darkwolf seems to be a pretty good person that I could imagine myself hangin out with. People arent a society or a goverment, a government representing the people (even if that might be questioned when it comes to the US) and a society is all the people put together but is not the individuals. But I really think the entire political system in the US needs an overhaul, mostly for the good of its own people.
Most of these things wouldnt have mattered if the US had been a small country with little or no influence and there are plenty of other countries that I have problems with as well. Not the least all dictatorships and mock democracies out there but you dont here very many of them thumping their own chests claiming to be the best, most free and the peak and glory of human civilisation and democracy.
Everything the US do affects everyone so it is bound to elicit comments and thoughts, most of which are negative and I have self insight enough to know that envy do play a part in my feelings even if it is not a big part and I do my best to ignore it.
I love the US though, I have been there and it was wonderful. The US has the most friendly, helpful and open people I have ever met and they can take in a stranger and treat him wonderfully without hesitation. Many of my opinions could be because I think such a wonderful people deserve better than what they have?
Master of Nuhn
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 7:49pm
My view on America:
Capitalism, Individualism, contests and stress.
People don't seem to work so they can live. They live for their work.
I can be wrong, but there are a lot of Americans in my country who would agree.
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 8:04pm
I don't dislike the US.
I dislike the idiots amongst its population. Just as much as I dislike the idiots amongst mine. It's just that the US Idiots seem to be a lot louder than those in my own neighbourhoud.
Oh and Joac, you might like this. From my good friend George Carlin:
"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State.
My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own,
so both of them together is certain death."
Thu, 3rd Apr '03, 11:44pm
A few questons, mainly because the "confused" has me confused.
1. How has the US "re-introduced" relegion into politics?
2. What, specificially, is wrong with the electoral system.
3. "There are plenty of things that I dislike, the entire 'you can make it if you just try hard enough' attitude and the view that it is more or less your own fault if you dont make it is something I find to be a pretty nasty view of humanity. The list can go on." I am a firm believer that you CAN make it if you try hard enough. What exactly is wrong with this?
4. And I have a feeling that this is going to cause some problems....but I am curious.
"Of course the foreign policy is mightily important as well, the US arrogance when it comes to foreign policy is annoying especially since they have no real reason for being arrogant except for the fact that they have hte biggest stick"
Historicially, power on the planet earth has flowed from the "barrel of the gun". It's not pretty, it's not fair, but it is true. It is also true that the US is indeed the most powerful country on this planet. It is also true that it is also the most powerful in many NON MILITARY areas. I'm curious which country DOES have the right to be arrogant, proud, happy, whatever you want to call it?
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 1:08am
Quit it man, I already feel bad enough about how rude I have been on occasion, especially to you, and now you are making me feel even worse about it. :(
I know this thread is really intended for those outside of the US, but I would like to comment.
Believe it or not, and I know as obstinate as I seem this may be difficult, many of you have actually swayed my opinion. The problem is, when I agree with you I usually don't say anything. Some of the views here have actually resulted in discussions with my friends that become somewhat heated.
I think the one thing that I dislike most about a lot of my fellow Americans is our attitude of "screw the world, we know best, we are the biggest and strongest, and too bad if you don't like what we do". In other words, they think "Why should we care what they think?" I hope that as the world continues to shrink Americans will begin to think in global terms, and be more understanding of how other nations feel. I know that this goes against some of what I have said on the war in Iraq, but hey, it is a process. Also, this does not mean that we will or should bow down on every issue, but at least we can consider and do a better job of explaining why we are making certain choices.
That said, LLandon, what the hell are you trying to do? Keep that up and they will be using you as the example of the bad American! ;) :D ;)
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 1:21am
Thanks everyone for the input so far.
I don't want to seem pushy, but I'd like to make a request or two. It is good to know generally what you dislike but it would also be helpful if you had any specific examples that stick out. For example, foreign policy is a general complaint but perhaps there are one or two ( or three or four whatever) issues that really stand out?
Oh, and it may've seemed addressed solely to non-US citizens and if so I appologize, of course I'm interested in what anyone has to say.
Also, I'm not a moderator or anything. But, if possible, since this was in hopes of gathering information, I'd like to reitterate a request not to debate too much since it might take away from the information gathering aspect and just be a back and forth. I'm hoping to put together some thoughts in the future based on some things I'm reading but will either hold off for a week or so or start an entirely new thread, suggestions?
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 1:48am
I applaud you for conducting this thread. I too want to understand this issue as best I can, as I'm sure many Americans do who don't quite understand where all of the bad sentiment comes from. I recognize it and am very aware, but more often than not I'm just confused about the actions of certain countries (I know...welcome to International Politics). In fact, the main reason I've been so interested in the forums as of late is so I can learn from everyone here. Having voices from so many places around the world and hearing their views is a warm welcome.
My answer to this question: I love my country and what we were founded on, as I think most Americans truly stand for what we say we do. However, I am consistantly frustrated with our government. I hate how we preach democracy but rarely practice it. I hate how our political leaders are never, IMO, the best person for the job.
American politics today is such that the most learned, respected and qualified citizens, the ones who SHOULD lead us, won't go near public office with a 10-foot pole because of the effect it would have on their families. Those who can't be bought by one interest group or another are quickly crucified politically and swept under the rug, while the guy who doesn't mind "crossing the line", and has done so so often he can't even see the line anymore, gets elected on the money that will buy 'favors' later.
We claim to be so great, but our leaders are just as corrupt as any so-called 'terrorist state'. Case in point: am I to believe it's merely a coincidence that Haliburton was awarded the biggest Iraqi reconstruction contract and Dick Cheney used to be it's CEO? Could you be any more obvious? I honestly love my country, even though I consider myself a raging cynic. But it gets harder and harder to believe in it with each passing election.
[ April 04, 2003, 01:53: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 2:06am
Well... I dislike the US because of their propaganda system. All the wars they've fought over the years have mostly been moves on the giant chessboard called Earth. They claim these wars were to liberate the cultures and peoples of the nations they've 'helped' (aka invaded).
Nicaragua was one war that they should not have fought the way they did. They basically 'hired' guerillas to kill anyone who thought of contesting.
Vietnam was a dumbass mistake (although that is probably the most uncontroversial war of all).
Chili and Pinochet was idiotic.
Saddam Hussein was ridiculous, although at the time he was regarded as a necessary risk.
Panama was a tragedy.
I could go on but I want to give one example in detail...
East Timor was trying to separate itself from the rest of Indonesia and the only way it could do that was through violence. Indonesia is an Islamic state, so the Christian East Timorians were being prosecuted (much like the Kurds, but less severe). When they retaliated, Indonesia asked the US for help. At first the US said: "we support you, but we're not sending any weapons over". The US also said not to use the arms the Indonesians already had from the US (although they did anyway since 90% of their arms were US imported). The US later sent more arms over to help Indonesia commit genocide against East Timor. After the war, the US said they didn't condone the Indonesian's acts against East Timor, but apparently they did so in secrete because no one ever heard the US say anything about Indonesia... ever. The one time any press got out on the war, it was a British freelance reporter filming the atrocities.
Anyway, I dislike the US administration... never the people. The US population isn't responsible for war, the government is (even if the war is under popular vote the people never get both sides of the story or even the whole of one side).
[ April 04, 2003, 02:11: Message edited by: Mystra's Chosen ]
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 2:07am
I hope I'm not in the running for an example of a bad American. My last post was kind of rushed since I was at work, and had a customer waiting for me.
I mainly am interested in a little more detailed information. I am NOT trying to start any kind of fight or push anyone's buttons.
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 2:09am
that was wierd... my post showed up 2 times.
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 6:33am
Wow check it out Darkwolf and I agree! :D
For me one of the biggest promblems I see in the US is partisan politics.It doesn't seem to matter anymore if its good for the country if it is a republican idea the democrats vote against it and vice versa.What ever happened to doing things because they would help the people.
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 8:39am
Posted by Llandon: 1. How has the US "re-introduced" relegion into politics?
Well, this might not be what Joacqin meant, but after 9/11 throughout the "War against Terrorism" have you heard Bush talk? He couldn't finish a single sentence without mentioning "God bless America" or something of the sort. That really antagonized me, as it made it look like a Christian/Islam war, which is not a picture one should paint, because that's exactly what fits the muslim extremist image, as far as I know.
It's not so much that religion plays an active role in politics, but more that politics uses religion to put more weight in their words. But then again, Joacqin might be talking about something else.
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 9:22am
Every nation has it good and bad points, the only reason people pick on America is because it has a more prominent role in the world.
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 2:40pm
The electoral system has a lot to answer for in the US. Everyone is directly elected from the local sheriff to the president. From this follows two things:
Firstly, with politics so personalised politicians are more worried about where the next campaign buck will come from than proper policy making. To take someone down you don't need to look to improve on their policies, you just dig up some dirt and that's it.
Secondly, special interest groups buy their way to policy. They contribute, they get their way in the voting. This aspect is downright corrupt.
Finally I also dislike the way religion is being given such a high prominence in US politics. Religion should not be the basis for policy making. Take a step back and look at the Arab world. Not a good way make policy in any area, least of all foreign policy.
Only other point that spring to mind: Gun control. Nuff said on that one.
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 2:51pm
Gun control, the Movie Academy thinger and Bush.
Some guy said, that she was hot.
That guy is a crappy idiot.(Sorry.)
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 3:07pm
Bush, a lot of republicans, and their stupid our-country-is-the-best attitude.
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 7:02pm
Faragon makes a good point, that is part of what I meant. Another part is that the different churches in the States are very powerful and have great influence on mostly the Republican party. As has been said, it reminds in a scary way about the middle-east.
The electoral system instead of a proportionate election system is in my opinion a huge block for a functioning democracy. It totally eradicates diversity, allowing the two most powerful parties to further consolidate their power. It may give strong government but it takes away the power of the people to choose. For far too many people the choice between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between plague and cholera which leads to them not choosing at all and thus not voting. Not voting is the death of any democracy.
Just for the record so has the UK more or less the same problem.
It is not easy to change either as neither democrats nor republicans are going to make a change that would diminish their own power.
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 7:32pm
I think it was a good idea to start this topic, because problems between US-Americans and the rest of the “Free-World” can’t be overlooked. Especially since this problems affect nearly every forum on the net, so this forum too.
And I think it would also be fair, to turn the question around and ask: Why are Americans so hostile against people outside of the US ?
And I also noticed, that nearly no Asians post in this forum. They probably prefer Japanese games.
My point of view is, that there’s a fundamental difference between the way Europeans and Americans think about themselves and the world. This leads to misunderstanding and later to aggravation on both sides.
And I think this will problem will become bigger and bigger in the future and separate Europe and America more and more.
And there are a lot of things which divide. Some are:
Americans think of themselves as rich. What they are. Europeans think the same thing about themselves. Europe is financially pretty well off too. (Japan is the second richest country, China third, Germany forth (but “only” 80 millions citizens)
But Americans are sometimes perceived as “beggars”. Right now European Countries waiting for a begging tour from Powell and Rumsfeld, knocking on the door of their allies for some money, because their war has become longer and more expensive than they thought. And European Countries have paid huge sums to the US in the past, for the costs of their wars. So many caricatures show “baby Bush” making a mess and European leaders have to clean it.
Most Europeans don’t agree and can’t understand how the US is handling its problem with the Middle East. Searching for an “Islamic aggressor” that attacks “without any reason” is, given the colonial background of European countries, not comprehensible.
Colonial Background: Nearly the whole Middle East used to be European Colonies. So it's not surprising, the some Algerians aren't to fond of France, or some Egyptians dislike the British. That's not because their Religion tells them so.
Americans mostly deny to belong to the former colonial powers (they used to have colonies too: Hawaii, Cuba, Philippines etc.)
Americans like to say “everybody envies us for are judiciary system”. No. Certainly no. No European Country would give up their own judiciary system to get the American one. No way.
Americans make strange comments. In a Swiss TV Show they asked an American (who lives and works in Switzerland) how he explains the hyperpatriotic flag-waving of the Americans. He said, it was because of WWII, because all Americans had to stick together.
That’s a confusing answer, because nearly every European country was more involved in WWII than the US, and therefore their people had to stick even more together. And they rather stopped to do such things after WWII:
And Because "thinking" about this topics is so different between Americans and Europeans, it's just difficult to have even a conversation. Things which are not intended to be offensive are understood as offensive. But this is a problem for both sides.
"When I say "I" don't like the american judiciary system, than that's my opinion about it, not america-bashing". But Americans tend to automaticly understand it this way.
Clash of Civilications
[ April 04, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: Yago ]
Fri, 4th Apr '03, 8:45pm
Same here. I do not dislike the US. I dislike their government as it is IMO a dangerous and irresponsible bunch and I strongly wonder about many things. Like: I cannot understand the american reasoning (or IMO lack thereof) when it comes to guns - it is utterly mysterious to me, only explainable by the US perception of their constitutuion.
. Beeing german I have learned one thing: That nationalism is dangerous. Nationalism has brought so much bloodshed over europe. The intense display of nationalism (IMO) in the US therefor repulses me.
Children in class doing flag-call in school in the morning, singing the national anthem. For me as a german that sight has long lost it's innocence.
. The US legal system is always good for a funny story of stupid people sueing others for millions. Well, the idea of punitive damage isn't bad in itself - the problem is it beeing dependent on a more or less intelligent jury (or the eloquence of a manipulative lawyer).
Another problem is IMO the election of prosecutors and judges as it invites to use cases to gain public notice for a later career in politics - quite a number of people are in death row because of that. And when we are there already, I don't understand the ratio behind death penalty either.
. Christian fundamentalists ... :mommy:
. I can't understand the US perception of the middle east and the logic how they reacted on 9/11. Europe has suffered terror since the 1970s, quite a lot countries here had their own domestic terrorists and had to deal them.
Surprisingly the US seem to feel that they are at the forefront in the war against terror and that the others do nothing, only obstructing them. Maybe it's that we think it's apolice job and are relucant to bomb other countries? It's not that we just lack the power to do so - it's a massively different philosophy.
. I despise the current US gvt's way to do foreign policy - as the decisions come from the pentagon rather than from the diplomats that's always bad. The actual isolation of the US is a sign of how bad it exactly is.
I especially despise the unscrupulous ignorance for international law and the grandeur with which the US decided the current war with Iraq.
These are just a few things where my european sight and the US perception clash .... By criticising these points I IMO do not want to "bash the US" or insult them - despite my occasional polemics or caustic jokes I do respect the US.
Perhaps that's why Moore's film is so popular in europe: It may give a hint how to understand the "alien cousin" overseas. At least it, again, gives a lot to wonder about.
Chandos the Red
Sat, 5th Apr '03, 4:49am
Ragusa -- I agree with everything in your critique except one thing: The pentagon is not deciding policy. In fact, Rumsfeld and the gang have been trying their best to intimdate the hell out of them. None of these guys, with the exception of Colin Powell, are true military, and have no understanding of what the military is about.
The word is, that because some of the top brass in the military can't stand these guys, Rumsfeld has already begun nameing successors to some of the generals who are close to retirement -- making them lame ducks. A few of them appeared before congress and said that they think the guys making policy don't know much of anything. Thus, Rumsfeld has begun to "clean house" in the Pentagon (in other words, he is looking for yes men).
That should clue you in as to how dangerous this adminstration really is. Policy is dictated by ideologues who think that we are in the "American Century." They are arrogant men who believe that the rest of the world needs to be in step with whatever their idea of "America" happens to be. Things here are much worse than you can imagine. Those of us who dare to protest are branded as traitors. It's that bad. Maybe someone will be courageous enough to bring freedom back to America again.
Sat, 5th Apr '03, 7:34am
I haven't read all of the posts here, and I don't think I need to in order to post my opinion. My mother was American, and I know a fair bit about the country. I don't hate the Americans, the polity, or the Constitution. What I do find troublesome is the arrogance displayed by SOME Americans. Here in Canada we have a comedy show, and one of their infrequent segments is a piece called "Talking to Americans". A reporter goes and asks Americans on the streets really silly questions, like "Should Canada legalize personal fax machines?" and "Did you know Canada does not follow the 24 hour clock system, but have their own 20 hour system?" You wouldn't believe what they'll swallow. He even caught an American governor, and in fact had the first President Bush acknowledge that the Canadian Prime Minister was named Jaques Poutine. Now, not knowing about a country that is several thousand miles away on a different continent is one thing, but Canada is right next door! Now, my pride isn't too damaged by this, but the fact that some Americans don't know the first thing about a neighboring country highlights their introspective arrogance, and undercuts their credibility when they decide to go off and attack a country overseas (and before anyone forgets, I'm in FAVOR of the US actions in Iraq, I just wish Americans looked outside their supposedly perfect bubble a little bit.)
Sat, 5th Apr '03, 10:39am
I don't have anything against the US, it's the people that live there :rolleyes: They are S..O T...H....I....C...K at times. Especially Bush. And they're all either fat or anorexic
[PM warning pending.] -Tal
[ April 05, 2003, 21:57: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
Sat, 5th Apr '03, 12:53pm
What I don't like about America.
The Americans seem to look down on others, planty of people I have talked to on the internet say nasty things about the Brits and when I say I'm from England they sort of go:
"Oh, I thought all Brits were <unrepeatable insults here>"
Even though it is most likely untrue for many there is also a vast amount of people who consider themselves above others because they are American, it is also true for other places, but I think Americans make it more obvious.
Recently - an American woman and her son asked me for directions, the Woman kept laughing because I have a British accent and then the little boy said "Do you like paries?" and the woman turned to him and said "Now don't go confusing her, honey, Brits don't party."
Another reason is that Bush and quite a few others seem determined to have a war, many of them actually seem to ENJOY the fighting. On TV we see them cheering as they blow people with bombs and they also shoot the British troops.
I think people feel patronised by the US. Also (no offense) many seem a bit ignorant to some things. I saw a program with an American scientist and he said that most Americans in high school thought the whole of Europe, Asia and parts of Africa were the USA, because it was so big. They sometimes use slang and their versions of words and then think others are stupid for not knowing what 'pants' 'sidewalks' 'trash cans' and other things are, some things are different over here, several times I have been given shocked looks or am the ones giving them because I haven't understood what was said :eek:
Sat, 5th Apr '03, 1:42pm
The American word for a see saw is 'teeter totter'! lol need i say more.
But seriously. Just like the sense of Nationalism that swept Europe in the 19th century, Britain is succombing to a severe case of Yanky-phobia.
One of my best friends is the opposite, he has been to America several times and declared the other day that everything over there was 'igger and better'. Needless to say this got him very close to a bruising from some of the more right wing members of our college. This would initially seem to be a form of envy, however i do not see it as that.
I do not think we (talking Britain here) is envious of America, belive it or not, our class of living is just as high and we DO party, like hell. America is not better than us, it just thinks other's are not as good. This annoys me to say the least.
I have recently experienced an exchange group from New York. I met a guy called Sammy, nice guy, but totally ignorant of anyone elses culture but his own. Needless to say we ensured that he gained a new respect for Britain by taking him and several others on the booze up of the century (small point: The yanks just couldn't take the pace).
They were then opened to the experiences of rugby, pub culture, my best mates driving, rock music gigs and clubbing.
The opinions when they left were seriosuly contrasting to the opinions on arrival, there was almost a sense of respect for us.
And on one more cultural note, these yanks must have had mcdonalds almost every night, i mean MY GOD! how can anyone eat so much junk food!
Anyway, my point is this: America is not better than any other country, or at least on a cultural level. People do not hate Americans because they are jealous or threatened. People just get angry because noone gets respect from Yanks. They consider themselves better simply because as far as they can see they are! American media and popular culture shields them from seeing anything remotely cool about other countries culture.
Any yank who thinks Britain's can't 'party'..... well i challenge you to spend a week with me and my mates. :p :p :p
Sat, 5th Apr '03, 8:16pm
As the secretary of defence Rumsfeld in the essence *is* the pentagon. I agree with you - the Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz gang are dangerous indeed. If interested in what they are up to, ask them themselves (http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm) (thanks again BOC :thumb: ) and have a look here (http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0902/29bookman.html).
When you see at the current global military and geopolitical events you'll notice they're working on it already. Most interesting as no one ever asked the US citizens if they wanted to maintain a global presence for hegemonia ... err ... fighting terror. For these dudes 9/11 was a gift.
Chandos the Red
Sat, 5th Apr '03, 10:25pm
I am not sure that Rumsfled is in essence the Pentagon. It is a deeply entrenched institution with traditions that go way back and has seen bigger monsters (and been run by bigger monsters) than this current bunch. These guys were private citizens before Bush was appointed prez by the supreme court. The real problem is the lack of opposition in this country. Thank God for Europe! But I did not want to get off Laches' topic. Maybe this should be on another thread. . .
Sun, 6th Apr '03, 10:18am
well excuuuuuuuuuse me. I thought we were supposed to post opinions? That's mine :)
Seriously though, sorry if I annoyed anyone
Sun, 6th Apr '03, 10:48am
Opinions delivered in accordance with the extra rules specified for the AoDa forum in the sticky on top of the topic listing in the AoDa forum. There it's written quite clearly what you can and cannot do.
Anyway, let's get back on topic.
Sun, 6th Apr '03, 2:33pm
To make it short, I simply agree with Ragusa's point of view. ;)
Mon, 7th Apr '03, 6:01pm
I too dislike the U.S. government but not its people. My great grandfather was American.
The U.S. government looks after its country just like any other government would. Unfortunately, its influence is far greater than most others. Its foreign policy greatly affects the affairs of other countries. Often its to the detriment of those countries. I guess it wouldn't be as bad if we didn't hear news about Americans who don't know where Iraq and other countries are and then they go out and support whatever actions the government pursue.
Strange too that the Americans support their government (propaganda aside) when voter turnout is low. They don't seem to care enough to vote and then become vocal about issues later on. It promotes the idea that the average American is ignorant and yet supports whatever its government says it should do.
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 2:04am
I have recently experienced an exchange group from New York. I met a guy called Sammy, nice guy, but totally ignorant of anyone elses culture but his own. Needless to say we ensured that he gained a new respect for Britain by taking him and several others on the booze up of the century (small point: The yanks just couldn't take the pace).
LMAO !! :lol:
Well said Dargorn! :D
It's true that a lot of yanks think they are better then their european and asian cousins, but the ones I have met in MMORPGs wasnt like that(Although a lot of them didnt even know what Denmark is :p )
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 4:40am
I will say this.
Although I have always had respect, I have a newfound sense of Awe where the British army is concerned.
They are seriously kicking *** and taking names. Transcribing that list to text is going to suck, hardcore, for the poor fool that has to do it. Gear up the OCR.
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 9:15am
Do you really want to know WHY we don't like Americans? It can be answered in one word. Arrogance. I do not want to seem racist, i have nothing against americans as persons, but as people, you are real d**kheads. I mean that in all sense of the word. Asterisks and all. It may seem unfair, but there have been many proven facts and polls that you are really arrogant/stupid. Here in Australia, we have a television show (Yes, TV! We dont live in the bloody stereotypical circumstance that most people seem to attach to Australians) called CNNNN. I'm not sure, but it may have been aired in other countries, I'm not sure where it is from exactly. In this television show, they had a poll with American 'citizens' on the streets. Simple questions such as 'What is a Mosque', 'What religion are the Israelis', 'Should Saddam Hussein be punished for 9 11' were answered with such blatant stupidity that i found it hard to beleive that you think of yourselves as the rulers of the Western World. A Mosque was said to be an insect (when it is infact a house of worship), The israelis were said to be muslims (they are Jewish) and they ALL said that he should pay for the destruction of the Twin Towers! He didn't have anything to DO With the Twin Towers!!
I dont want to be labled as a racist kangaroo rooting Ozzy outback yobo, but come on. It is there under our noses. The Untied States of Arrogance have been too quick and too heavy fisted to look at the problem as a whole. Which problem? Any, just pick one.
The Melbourne Comedy Gala which aired just last Thursday had a very funny man named Danny Bhoy, a scottish comedian, doing an act for the benefit of all. He said that George Dubya had to pretend to be a cowboy when he reached his office and no one was around. He was half right. He does like to be a cowboy, but not in private. He voiced it by destroying the majority of 2 Arab countries. Thanks Georgey baby, they are REALLY thanking you now for your liberation. Now, if you'll kindly give them back their friends and family, their homes and business', then they'll hapily get back to grovelling at the US' feet. You silly Tw*t.
Sometimes I think the whole world would be better if he HAD choked on that pretzel.
[ April 08, 2003, 09:20: Message edited by: Baezlebub ]
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 11:55am
you would probably get the same results when asking aussies the same questions. Just speak fast and surprise average people and success will be kinda guaranteed.
The amazing point abbout the US is their sense of mission. Democracy and the american way of life are the way to go! Everywhere in the world.
But now, when only promoting the best values of the western world, why is it that the US are so unpopular in the arab world? :hmm:
France, germany, japan and britain - china and russia even, are happy to sell their arms, cars and mashines to the people in the middle east and giving them their money back by buying their oil.
The US don't stop there.
They aren't satisfied until the arabs get Coca-Cola, McDonalds, Starbucks (someone has to tell those backward arabs how to make coffee), the Playboy and other blessings of the american way of life, something that's about en par with the constitution in Bush JR's ranking.
So IMO the US'es massive cultural influence - and economical influence - as popular culture always is economical - is what pisses the arabs off. Why? A few thoughts:
Most arab countries are ruled by people with western education - Saddam is about the lonely exception beeing a stinking shepard who managed to take control by cunning and ruthlessness (like, for example - change the "stinking shepard" to "weird nerd", Bill Gates :evil: ). Usually the US would be impressed by such a "from dishwasher to billionaire" career ....
In the arab countries small elites rule, but don't represent the people. So the current jordanian king barely speaks his own "native" language, arab. The decisionmakers in these autocratic countries are miles away from their people. Their western education isolates them from them, while they make decisions for the rest of the people who lack that background.
The arabs have a centuries old tradition of unity of church and state - that's totally contrary to the western model of democracy and separation of state and church. So the model of democracy, acceptance-wise, is questionable there anyway.
Democracy, however, in arab countries is only good so long as it doesn't result islamists in parliament. And democracy is only so long supported by the US. That's what effectively killed democracy in the pro-western arab, US supported, countries in the middle east :shake:
It's not about envy of the evil mullahs, fearing for western freedom as a threat to their control. The conservative majority in arab countries, underprivileged and not allowed to participate in democratic decisionmaking processes (because there are none), sees the incoming cultural "symbols", mainly from the US, as a sign of their supression, that's the most visible way the US influence on their gvt's shows for them. The ever spectacular US culture does not pass unnoticed, take McDonalds, Madonna or Michael Jackson :shake:
The arabs may hate the US - but not more than they hate their governments. The US influence wouldn't be there if someone had asked them - because the american way of life isn't quite conform with islam's view on life.
That's shows probably Islamism's worst trait: It's a trade obstacle* :evil:
*Germans suffered from that too: There's a classic german law case about "loss of basis of business" - after the islamic revolution in iran the new gvt suddenly prohibited export of beer to iran .... ;)
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 12:15pm
I hate USA because(in no special order):
1. They are ignorant
2. They think that much money is important
3. They never know when they should stop.
I don't have much time on this cpu so I must stop but I will be back.
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 1:36pm
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 3:39pm
The newspaper you mean? Not, not at all - that's all my effort :shake:
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 4:07pm
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 4:28pm
The thing that really nerves me about USA is the arrogance and the we know the "we know what's best for you" atitude the US goverment has toward the rest of the world. Also i really dislike the really big show off about the values of the american way of life (democracy etc) when they don't really enjoy these values in their lives. Anyway i don't have any problem with the people except when they fall in the above mistakes. But even then i am discussing my point of view. And some US citizen i've met were ok not cool (it was the different way they were brought up it's very different than mine) but we had some quality time talking and laughing etc. :cool:
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 5:30pm
It's not so much "We know what's good for you" but "You DO know what's good for you?!!!!" sometimes ...
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 5:38pm
I'm sorry, but I have to jump in here. Knock Americans all you want, but at least be fair and have valid arguements.
i have nothing against americans as persons, but as people, you are real d**kheads. I mean that in all sense of the word. Asterisks and all. It may seem unfair, but there have been many proven facts and polls that you are really arrogant/stupid. Here in Australia, we have a television show (Yes, TV! We dont live in the bloody stereotypical circumstance that most people seem to attach to Australians) called CNNNN. I Asking a few random people on the street for a TV show is a "proven fact/poll?" Please. You refer to the stereotype that all Americans seem to think you Aussies are all 'Crocodile Dundee,' railing us for putting you into an unfair grouping because of our portrayal of your country in our TV and movies. Yet at the same time, you give so much credibility to a lame TV street survey only because it validates YOUR stereotype that every single American is an arrogant aloof moron.
Jay Leno, a popular American late-night talk show host, has been doing a segment on his show for years called 'Jaywalking.' Exactly like the segment you described, he goes out on the street with a microphone and camera and asks everyday citizens simple historical/social trivia such as "When was the war of 1812 faught?" Of course, nobody gets the right answer and says something stupid on the show. What you don't realize is how long it takes to get enough people to say the wrong thing to fit into a 5-minute segment. A friend of mine used to be an assistant on that show and told me it sometimes takes several days to get one segment together, because they can only show the people who give stupid answers. Because Americans who aren't stupid aren't interesting, even to American audiences. Point being: you see what the producers of that show want you to see to get their point across. In both cases, it's that Americans are "d***heads." In my example it's meant more for humor. In your case, it's meant to perpetuate exactly the type of unfair stereotype you claim to detest.
They aren't satisfied until the arabs get Coca-Cola, McDonalds, Starbucks (someone has to tell those backward arabs how to make coffee), the Playboy and other blessings of the american way of life, something that's about en par with the constitution in Bush JR's ranking. Ragusa, I usually have great respect for what you have to say, but I think you're way off the mark here. Yes, American culture is everywhere - but that's because there's a demand for it. I detest those companies as much as the next guy (I used to work for Starbucks...trust me, I know their evil). But you make it sound as if we force it on these people. They make the choice to walk into a McDonalds or Starbucks and buy a friggin' Big Mac. Don't give me that crap about Americans forcing our culture down everyone's throat because:
A) If there were any other country who had a franchise as popular worldwide as McDonalds or Starbucks, don't think they would hesitate for a minute to set up shop on every streetcorner in America if they thought it would make a ton of money.
B) These franchises wouldn't exist in these places if there weren't people buying what they sell. Until the day I see the manager of a McDonalds pointing a gun at someone's head while they shove down a sausage McMuffin, don't even go there.
My point is, if you have some personal experience with Americans that left a bad taste in your mouth, that's fine. Hell, there are plenty of Americans I'd just as soon shoot as look at, and I AM one. But taking extreme points of view based solely by what you hear in the media makes you just as much of an idiot as we "d***heads," asterisks intended.
I find this thread so interesting because it gives me the opportunity to learn a different point of view. But please, take a minute to smell the crap before you shovel it. I could make plenty of assumptions about the Germans, too. Not just by public opinion lately, but history and my own personal experiences - but I don't. Why? I refuse to make judgements on a people based only on blanket stereotypes, government policies I disagree with and bad experiences with a small few of the dozen or so Germans I've known in my life so far.
My take home message is this: we are not George Bush. We are not Pepsi. We are not John Wayne or Jerry Springer or Bill Gates. Most of us are people just like all of you, trying to get through the day. We're still human beings, and many of us are a lot more scared and concerned than you give us credit for.
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 6:13pm
It's not about the evil of Starbucks* or McDonalds. You clearly miss my point there: Of course, no one forces the arabs to eat hamburgers and drink starbucks coffee. What I aimed on was beyond that: I used these names as metaphors for western influence, and open western influence there mostly is from the US.
You can't have missed that I stressed the influence of the leaders and the differences between their views and the views of their people.
My core message was that the US very much like to stress the importance of worldwide democracy, also, recently for iraq, in the arab countries. At the same time they suggest the local gvt's to suppress the opposition because it is islamic and could be elected in the next elections. That is really ironic.
And the US wonder that arabs dislike them, even consider them hypochrits? A look at the US way to deal with israel compared with iraq should work to convince the last arab on that point. That statement, of course, is on foreign policy.
While supporting the pro-arab countries in the joint war on terror ... err ... islamism ... the US also trade. The people who know and see that the americans help their gvt's to opress them, see the indicators of american influence. Like Starbucks, McDonalds and the like. They feel that they loose control and sovereignty on their soil.
*I chose that example mainly because there is indeed some irony in Starbucks bringing coffee back to the arabs ... :shake:
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 7:22pm
Okay Ragusa, I get you now. :thumb:
But still, I see the influence over their elections as less about keeping "islam" down, but rather keeping "fanatical islam" down. Our public sees fanatical, extreme governments and ideologies as a major threat to us. The average American could care less about "Islam," unless people are killing or dying "for the glory of Allah." Not to say we see Islam as insignificant, just nothing to worry about.
I can understand and appreciate those in the region for feeling the way they do. But I think our intentions there are a lot simpler than they seem. More about (at least percieved) security than economics (though economics is still a big part - an entire nation boycotting all things American is not good for profits, obviously). Our biggest mistake here (if our intentions are true) is not caring to explain ourselves properly. Our government doesn't care to explain itself to it's own citizens all that often - especially regarding foreign policy, which is why so many of us are confused about it - much less the common people of a far-away country. These people are then left to draw their own conclusions about why we're doing what we're doing, influenced by what they think our presence represents. I honestly don't blame them.
I see it like this - IMO - If you believe someone is wrong and accuse them of it, and they don't seem to care why you think that way or make any attempt to clear their name, it is natural to assume that your theory is correct based on your unchallenged view.
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 8:13pm
The arabs who want a more islamic country to live in, rebelling against the opressive gvt's have a problem and a solution. Politically they have no influence, the elections are bad jokes. Demonstrating against the gvt only gets them beaten up and put in jail to be forgotten or further maltreated. What's their choice? A number of people in the arab countries choose violence.
Islam promotes the unity of government or rule and religion. In the concept of islam there is no need for democracy as the leader (ideally) is wise and just - he has to when he follows the path of islam.
Faced with injust, corrupt regimes a lot of people find trust in god. So do the arabs. They do so when peaceful or in war. The fight for islam is a freedom fight - freedom from the opressive gvt to an islamic, just regime. In the arab eyes the way to islam often is seen as a political solution in response to opressive governments.
Even if that's a cirlce and can be instrumentalised by powerhungry politicians that's still a good and just cause.
Only to fight against evil "fanatic islam" as the US demonstrate atm is shortsighted. Look at Saudi-Arabia which is dominated by wahhabi islam. Compared to a more liberal, sufi islam the wahhabis are fanatics. Gives that a reason to kill them out - or to dominate them? Because they endanger what ... because Bin Laden is wahhabi? and Al-Quaida? because of US interests? Trade relations? World peace? Order?
In the middle east the US face a problem that cannot be solved by bombs. More, when they keep on ignoring the principles of democracy their allies violate they will only breed more radicals and pave the way for more war.
Maybe it's good and healthy for the arabs to decide for a path of their own - doing what is totally normal - self-determination. Isn't that one of the US constitution's ideals? Even when that would mean that another islamic government would pop up: How bad would that be?
Tue, 8th Apr '03, 8:39pm
I totally agree - if it were to become clear that were that to happen progress in the region would come from it, I would support it wholly. Honestly, I think the best thing to happen would be for Bush and Blair to do exactly what they today said they intend: Give the government back to the Iraqis. What they are trying to prevent by their post-war involvement is another Saddam-like power rising up and taking it's place. If the tribes in the region can just work together for once and make it work, then we'll leave and never bother with it again. Otherwise, someone will come into power by capitalizing on the squabbling of the local tribes and dominate as brutally and selfishly as he sees fit...another Saddam all over again.
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 2:24am
I think Bush and Blair will keep their word. We talked today in my staff room about the fact that after the US defeated Japan, Macarthur(sic) took over for a while, but eventually there was a constitution established and a democratic government created. Now Japan is prosperous and powerful. The same thing can happen in Iraq (I have no crystal ball, so I'm not going to say it will happen) but the possibility exists. It's easy to hate someone when you get only one side of a story (and that also applies to Saddam, yes I know) but when the Iraqis are exposed to other media sources besides the ones sanctioned by the present regime, they will likely change their tune.
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 2:34am
I have to wonder that if the U.S. were a small, tucked-up country in Eastern Europe, still maintaining its supposed ignorance, stupidity, and excess, people would still be kicking it.
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 3:06am
C'Jacob, you have the right of it. For a long time, the British Empire was the whipping boy of intellectuals and literati. Now that England doesn't take such a forceful role in world affairs, the criticism levelled against it has dropped off a great deal. It's always easy to criticize a success -- it makes people feel better about the fact that they don't have some of the things we have (I'm referring not only to the US, but to the West in general)
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 5:10am
after the US defeated Japan, Macarthur(sic) took over for a while, but eventually there was a constitution established and a democratic government createdTrue. But a new Japanese constitution was made with the approval of the US of course. One was that Japan cannot go to war only create a self defence force (SDF). Whether that was wrong or right, it shows that the "gift" of democracy is not without a price. Will the U.S. allow the Iraqi people to create a new system without any "suggestions?"
Also, the enemy Japan was given an enormous amount of aid to rebuild after WWII while the ally, the Philippines, was immediately given independence (how benevolent!) and left to fend for itself.
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 5:19am
Also, the enemy Japan was given an enormous amount of aid to rebuild after WWII while the ally, the Philippines, was immediately given independence (how benevolent!) and left to fend for itself. In a number of ways, I think this sums up the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' perception of a lot of Americans. Just a little thinking and you see what I mean.
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 5:39am
Charlie, of course there will be conditions -- it would be naive to think there wouldn't be. But the fact remains that now Japan is a powerhouse in Asia. Iraq could be a real powerhouse in the Middle East if they acted smart and got a decent government -- one that allows for some opposition, maybe! I mean, anyone in the States can go out and say "Bush is a(n) <expletive>". Try being an Iraqi and saying something similar about Saddam. We all know they, and their family, would be tortured or shot. Don't tell me that's what Middle Eastern people want. And unless someone helps them, they will never be able to change that -- the days of peasants being able to storm the Bastille are over with the advent of high tech weapons.
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 8:19am
I agree. I just want to make sure that no one is naive to think otherwise. Also, see my point below.
I'm not saying, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." I just didn't like your example. Filipino soldiers died side by side the American troops. MacArthur was very honorable in fulfilling his promise of liberating the Philippines. But I can't say the same for the U.S. government. I'm not saying that the U.S. should not have helped Japan, even if its the very same country that bombed Pearl Harbor. But the U.S. could have treated the Philippines better. How can you treat your enemy better than your friend?
BTW, Manila was the second most devastated city after Warsaw. (Chevalier, I'd love to get some info on the damage.)
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 5:06pm
A lot of Anti-American/Anti-US feelings in here.
America is my home, I was born here, and with luck, I will die here too.
All you people who say President Bush is an idiot, who mock his cabinet members, etc . . . I guess there is no easy way to say it. You piss me off. President Bush and his allies have the balls to at least stand up and say, we will not live in fear. Kudos to Prime Minister Tony Blair and the British people, and to the Govt of Australia and its people for taking a stand and doing what is right.
Oh, one more thing, tomorrow, I leave for Luke AFB, to do my part in defending this great nation. *Waves Bye*
Wed, 9th Apr '03, 5:13pm
You do understand everything that went into the rebuilding of Japan? For example, you realize that US military personnel were in the classrooms of Japan for a long time making sure that the children were being taught the approved course? That the military maintained control over Japan for quite some time?
If that happens today in Iraq, the outcry from around the world will be deafening. Already France, Russia, and Germany are meeting to demand that the US not have a strong role in Iraq post-war.
Indeed, the common cry seems to be for the US to turn over control to Iraqis ASAP. The demands sound a lot like people asking the US to treat Iraq like they did the Phillipines. Which you are criticizing the US for. And if the US treats Iraq like they did Japan they'll be criticized heavily for it. And if they don't they'll be criticized by you and others who believe like you. And if they don't.....
To see evidence of this, look at other threads on this very board. Look at some of the things being stated by Yago for example , or Shoshino, or...
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Thu, 10th Apr '03, 3:30am
I would submit to you that most of the complaints I see here are not American promblems but human nature.
For instance several of you have claimed Americans are arrogant or just plain stupid,or we feel superior to other countries.By saying these things doesnt that mean you think you are better or smarter than Americans.Being guilty of exactly what you accuse of us of being.
As for the politicions attitudes,isnt that the case in every country.After all it takes a huge ego to stand up and say I can lead these people,I know what is good for this country.
All countries try to do what they think is their own best interest.No country will just do what others say.They all beleive they know what is best for their people and place in the world.This applies to every nation in the world not just th US.
I am quite sure no other country except the US has arrogant or ignorant or just plain stupid citizens.MY point is a cross section of any country anywhere in the world will dig up all kinds of people.The US is just like everywhere else as far its populace is concerned.Most of the US is full of just regular people trying to get buy.
I gues this the price of living in one of the worlds most powerful nations.Everyone wants to kick you around.
Thu, 10th Apr '03, 6:18am
I think you misunderstood me. I haven't made my mind up whether the U.S. should turn over the government to the Iraqis ASAP or not. I just didn't think the Japan example was a good one. It boggles me why the U.S. was willing to help Japan and not the Philippines after WWII. That's all.
Anyway, I just had some new thoughts about why people might not like the U.S. I remember Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men and what he said about doing whatever it takes to ensure the preservation of the American way of life. Perhaps other people are not envious of Americans. Rather Americans enjoy a pretty high standard of living and other people feel its at their expense (via economic, political or whatever means). This, coupled with the impression that Americans are ignorant of what their goverment does to achieve their way of life, would lead to a large amount of resentment.
Thu, 10th Apr '03, 9:08am
@ Death Rabbit
I understand the fact that there would be a lot of editing etc. to get the 10 odd people that were aired, but i beleive that you misuderstood me. As persons, that is, the individual man woman or child that can be found on the vanilla streets of a vanilla city in the Us, the americans are fine. Hell, i like'em. But please do not attempt to cram down my throat the idea that every person, man woman and child does not have some stereotypical viewpoint of people in other countries. THAT was the point that i was attempting, if vaguely, to pass across. I have a stereotypical view of an american person, you might have noticed, but that does not mean that they do not have one of me, or you or Ragusa or even Tal if it comes down to that. NB. (i dont mean to make direct personal reference here, just using you as an example).
There seems to be a stereotypical view everywhere that I look that people from Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Iran, or Serbia, or Pakistan are all bloodthirsty raving lunatic islamic fundementalists that are toting AK-47s and looking for the nearest democratic/capitalist/foreigner to blast. I ask this, who posed this stereotype with there lovely power over the media? The US. And you blast me with my example of a few american d**kheads. I'm not saying that it was you that made these stereotypes, but the topic is Why I hate Americans and I'm gonna hammer that idea till its dead and done.
Ragusa brought up the point that there is a great amount of American culture that is being crammed down our throats. You replied that if any other country had these franchises then they would do the same. Maybe, but is there? America is ramming its "Do like us and we won't label you as turncoat traitors that are obviously out to get us..." viewpoint down the throat of everyone it can get a hold of. Don't agree? What about France? If you, as Americans, aren't ramming your thoughts down your own, and our own, peoples throats, then what of the 'Freedom Fries'? I don't want to hear of some sap in the US asking for a McLiberation Burger, a Large serving of Freedom Fries and an Anti-Islamic Coke 'tm'. Maybe any other franchise that had the power over people that McDonalds or Coca Cola does, then maybe they would attempt to exercise it. The fact of the matter is, they don't, and it isnt happening. To them. A Salute, to the Untied States of Arrogance. Mis-spelling intended.
Then there is always Japan. A beaten country, one that was decimated at the END of the second world war by a cheap shot with some WoMD. What happened to this country? It had the 'superior' views of the Americans rammed down their throats. What has happened now? They have abandoned THOUSANDS of years of culture for the pseudo culture of Ronald McDonald. Tell me that that is not indoctrination of the people.
I am, in all actuallity, a very angry person. I have an opinion on everything, and this can go on for an age. I was asked for an opinion, and i gave it. Please don't attempt to prove it wrong, its bad manners.
Thu, 10th Apr '03, 9:22am
Ragusa. You made some interesting points about Arabs not liking the US because US lifestyles are so against Islam. Perhaps. Maybe if you ask arabs why they don't like the US (and thus Western generally) you may find that culture and Islam has little to do with it.
Arabs and muslims (generally speaking) don't like the US for international policy reasons. The US pours billions of dollars into Israel and takes Arab oil. (Yes this is very simplified). The US criticises Arab government atrocities against "the people" and presents the issue of terrorism in Israel as an Arab only crime. The US appears as not only ignoring the Arab victims (I am not saying there are no Israeli victims) but actively support the Israeli military against the common Arab citizen.
If you look at many large modern Arab cities you can see almost countless examples of US and or Western Culture. Islam does not disallow these. The resentment is for US double standards on issues of foreign policy and Israel.
If Islam was such a sticking point against US and Western lifestyles and culture, then how can it be explained that there are literally millions of Arabs and Muslims in western lands that have no problem with being muslims and western at the same time?
Besides, not all Arabs are muslims, and not all muslims are arabs. Well over half of the Arabs in the US and also Australia are Christians. There are even other ethnic and religious groups.
There are such things as evil mullahs worried about losing power, but some politicians are quite evil too...
Thu, 10th Apr '03, 6:32pm
I wasn't attempting to prove your opinion wrong at all. I simply found the evidence you stated as your reasoning for said opinion to be unfair and unfounded. I wouldn't have said a thing if you hadn't referred to your example as "many proven facts and polls." If the reasoning had come from a legitimate academic study or some other credible source, I probably would have actually agreed with you. But it didn't. You were admittedly basing your opinion on a stereotype, and I was asking for facts. To wit, your arguement about the indoctrination of Americnan culture into Japan was, in sharp contrast, not only valid but respectable and historically verified.
All I was asking was that you back up your opinion with something other than "because I saw it on TV." That would be precisely, if I'm not mistaken, the point behind your "Americans think all arabs are AK-47 toting lunatics" comment about our all-controlling media. It's not as if Al Jaziera is exactly fair and objective either. Foreign media cators to various agendas just as much as the next.
As for the "Freedom Fries" thing, that was seen largely as a joke and the idea has fizzled. No major franchises adopted it, mainly small mom-n-pop restaurants in areas with high concentrations of flag-waiving "I love my country no matter what and don't care what anyone else thinks" citizens. It was never seen as anything more than a semi-serious attempt by regular Americans to show their distaste for France's history of apparant disloyalty toward the U.S., despite the many times historically we bailed them out of a jam they got themselves into. France is still feeling the brunt economically from the unofficial boycott of all things French by US citizens (not the government), and probably will for some time. But it's not the first time unpopular policies have had an effect on international trade.
Quote: "I am, in all actuallity, a very angry person."
Believe it or not, I respect your opinion a lot more than you think. I'm sure you'll keep it coming.
Thu, 17th Apr '03, 5:38pm
Why I dislike the US?
(I'm going to refer to the recent war on Iraq)
I hate the US government because they are hypocrytes. They say they make war on Iraq(and other Asiatic countries) to "restore peace" etc. while they do it for economical purposes.
Even if they were the "good crusaders" fighting the "bad guys" to establish there their so-called democracy, how does mr. Bush know what the Iraqis want? And what gives him the right to interfere in other countries' affairs. Of course the Iraqis have suffered in Sadam's hands but that's not an excuse. Let the people solve their own problems.
And they kicked out Sadam Hussein. Now what? They will set up Democracy even though this people have never got accustomed to this kind of regime. From the ancient times they were ruled by an absolute leader. They dont want democracy.
I dont have anything against the American people, though they need to wake up from their lethargy most of them have fallen in and do something about this problem.
I haven't read the whole topic so i might be a little off-topic.
Thu, 17th Apr '03, 5:50pm
Nope - you're perfectly on topic.
And welcome to SP. :wave:
Fri, 18th Apr '03, 6:01pm
Thank you for reassuring me.
And welcome to SP What's SP?
Fri, 18th Apr '03, 6:15pm
Sorcerer's Place. :rolling: :rolleyes:
Sat, 19th Apr '03, 8:25pm
Oh, thank you :)