Satire with nearly the same topic:

http://www.satirewire.com/news/0010/international.shtml

Former cabinet minister and the last governor of Hong Kong, Chris Patten in the guardian:
But Mr Patten - who describes himself as a lifelong "Americaphile" with "not an ounce of Americaphobia in my body" - fears a deeper, philosophical gulf could soon appear, with two wholly different views of the world taking shape on either side of the Atlantic.Samuel Huntington, Clash of Civilization:
The world is in some sense two, but the central distinction is between the West as the hitherto dominant civilization and all the others, which, however, have little if anything in common among them. The world, in short, is divided between a Western one and a non-Western many.My interpretation: Western one = USA / Non-Western many = the rest

A lot of posts in SP state, that people stay out of discussions, because they

a. don’t lead to anywhere anyway.

b. end always in “America-bashing”.

a is certainly true, no one expects that a right-wing will turn over night into a “tree-hugger” and vice-versa.

But statement b has a lot of impact I think. One thing is for certain, US-Americans are a steadily shrinking minority on the net. And imho, in the few next years americaphobia will grow all over the world, certainly in Europe. And the transatlantic tensions will not disappear so soon (will they ever ?). I guess there are already people who shed a tear, because the good old times of unifying russophobia are definitely gone.

So, I wonder, how do you think will this situation change the World Wide Web ? No change at all ? A little ? Fundamental ?

(Yes I know that I am americaphobic) My personal view is, that more and more Americans just will either stay away from the internet or only visit sites where their safe from political issues or only visit sites, which are restricted to Americans.

Bottom line, I think it will come to a “Ghetto”-development. Sites only for Americans and only for Europeans (and maybe Asians, I have no clue about Asia). Which of course could be a problem for SP.

It's an interesting point. I used to post on four bulletin boards (3 + this one) on a regular basis. Now, I only post on two. The other two have made it clear since September 11th that only Americans are welcome. For example, one of them used to have flags across the top of the page representing the citizenship of every single member. They took a whole bunch of them down after September 11th and instituted a policy that only states that have never harboured terrorists would be represented. After a week of this, they decided America was the only country that had never harboured terrorists and they took down the Union Jack, the Maple Leaf and the Tricolore among other flags - all three of my nationalities (well, I'm also an American by marriage, but where there is such an "us vs them" attitude I don't feel represented by the Stars and Stripes). When I protested this decision I was flamed by a dozen or so members who said I should be ashamed to be a citizen of those countries. So, I left 'em to it. Similar shenanigans ensued on another board, where instead of the original topic (recipes), all the threads were suddenly dominated with very offensive and ignorant anti-Arab comments that truly shocked me. They also attacked the mother of a US Marine for saying she wished he hadn't been sent to Iraq, telling her she was not only unpatriotic but a bad mother. I've been corresponding with those sweet American housewives for years and would never have believed it of them. I thought they were the "good guys".

It's not a big deal for me to find other boards to post on, the contributors here at SP for example are virtually always well-balanced and fair, but I do wonder about the Americans on the "foreigners keep out" boards and how the world must look to them when they make it clear they aren't listening to non-American voices. I don't know how it could fail to lead to a ghetto mentality. I'm sure people of other nationalities do it too, although since I usually post on American-dominated boards I haven't experienced it yet.

I haven't noticed such things as Sprite described yet on any of the American BBs I use to visit. On the other hand, I've seen many Americans and Brits leave non-American boards in the past few months, they are not thrown out or flamed (well US is getting flames not its citizens), they just gradually disappear.

I haven't noticed such things as Sprite described yet on any of the American BBs I use to visit. On the other hand, I've seen many Americans and Brits leave non-American boards in the past few months, they are not thrown out or flamed (well US is getting flames not its citizens), they just gradually disappear. I know a number of Americans, some who had been here a very, very long time who will no longer come to this board because, as I noted in another post, over 25% of all posts over the past year feature negative comments about the US. (I suspect an even higher % within the last couple of months). I am in a process of waffling back and forth over whether to continue here for these same reasons. You say it isn't a matter of the Americans getting "flamed" but I suspect that might be easier seen when you're on the side constantly criticizing. (That also ignores threads with the premise that American's are stupid, I can think of two right off the top of my head, or statements like 'Americans are fat or anorexic' or...)

[ April 16, 2003, 14:28: Message edited by: Laches ]

I've read the article and i just can't imagine that there is so much insanity and indifference in this world. What do they mean they don't care for what is going on outside USA. Should we don't care what happens in USA; This is a big insanity and i hope that there will remain a minority. We live in the same world for christ sakes what shall we do; Isolate each continent from the rest and pretend that the "others" don't exist. In this forum and i suppose in every forum (i use this one only) people only discuss exchanging points of view not insults.
I know that my interests differ from most of the people in here but that is the beauty of these forums.
Anyway i sincerelly hope that this is something it will not happen in SP because in here we are mainly for one thing we love playing D&D. In every other aspect of life we surely can discuss the differences and find a common ground.
I sincerelly hope i didn't get out of topic but this are the first thoughts that came in my head when i read the article. :(

I have to agree with Slappy's remark on another thread that the US are in an exposed position as the world's predominant power. That attracts criticism.

This criticism sometimes gets emotional and that's when "US bashing" starts. IMO there is nothing wrong in questioning US foreign policy (and there has been a lot of to question recently) and domestic issues in the US. Of course that suggests the feeling of beeing under pressure on the US side. And I can, to a point, understand those who run to the flag to defend it then.

There are indeed a few things that can only end up in confrontation, like discussing gun-control, as it in the end remains a deeply emotional thing that cannot be overcome with even the most rational of arguments :holy: That's when the difference in perception lines out the differences in culture and menthality.

:shake: IMO Tal had a brilliant idea when he isolated threads that might end up in US bashing here in the alley :shake: So they are no reason to avoid SP as a whole ;)

Laches, I'm new here, so I haven't noticed who left SP recently. I was more talking about my other BBs rather than this one I hardly know.
Most of the time I'm on the side criticizing the US, true. I'm also on the side being criticized by the US. There is always some guy who will go too far, just correct him when he starts making stupid statements. (Go ahead, correct me :D )

Mithrantir, don't worry, that article was a joke. Things aren't really so bad yet. :)

Many people meet the worst sorts of Americans overseas, and then they overlay that bad image onto all Americans. Thus, when an American states something on a board such as this, he is greeted with "you are a narrow minded bigot" and other such deep, well thought out arguments. Ragusa has the right of it when he says there's nothing wrong with questioning American foreign policy, but the questioner must also LISTEN to what the other people have to say, not just flame them based on their geographic location.

Some Americans don't help the situation when they make stupid statements.

My interpretation: Western one = USA / Non-Western many = the rest
Also, I question this interpretation. Not having any real context it is difficult to say but since when did the Western = US? Western is typically (always in my experience prior to this thread) a much, much, much broader term.

Also, I question this interpretation. Not having any real context it is difficult to say but since when did the Western = US? Western is typically (always in my experience prior to this thread) a much, much, much broader term.In my view, "western" used to have a broader meaning, but imho it is not longer so. The whole "america-euro-bashing" thing only can exist, because there is a huge disagreement.

When there is a huge disagreement, there is no longer "one" western world. Actually, the basics of the Western world we were used to, were, imo, laid by FDR and his creations, among them the UN.

There are a lot of things, on which Europeans and Americans disagree. " Two wholly different views of the world taking shape on either side of the Atlantic."

The "clash of civilizations" is just a good example. This book actually intended to be a theoretical basis for an explanation of a east culture versus west culture. But in Europe, a lot of people just don't agree with it. There's no problem because someone else has a different culture. Everyone has a different culture. I live in a country with 4 national languages, 2 major religions and lots of minorities from different countries. How can I think that a different culture in itself is a problem ?

Problems between Americans and Europeans, that's why I took that quote from Huntington, are not based on huge cultural differences. There's no difference when it's about computer games, movies, books, music or the olympics.Evidently, there is one concerning baseball and soccer.

The problem is, we see the world differently. Now, whereas many people I know read Huntington, because the want to understand what's going on in America, in America, as it seems to me, the conclusion of the book is widely accecpted as "fact". There is another culture, the islamic, out to get the "West". This is a fundamental different point of view.

Now, I don't mean you, Laches, but many Americans said things concerning muslims which are quite scary to me. Many Americans seem to presume, there's something threatening in the Quran or about Arabs. I don't.

This leads to the top-issue world-wide. The war, which is in the Middle-East. The whole war makes for a big part of Europeans no rational sense at all. Wheras for a big part of Americans, it does make no rational sense at all to react to the war like Europeans react.

It's true that Europeans and Americans share common values, beliefs and norms. But we have different views of the world. But when we apply our norms on the facts that are in front of us, we come to different conclusions, because the "facts" are different.

These differences on important issues, imho, "reshapes" the concept of the "western world" we used to have. European countries can't just send their troops into wars, which there people don't understand. Nor can they unconditionally support a foreign-policy of an allied state, which causes bewilderment by their people.

So the Western World is parted in to: The West (I'm sure Americans want to keep the name) and the rest. The rest is not one. The rest speaks different languages, is divided in small countries (like Germany) and has different political systems and problems.

Exaggerated applied on the WWW: The population of the World-Wide-Web is manly from the Western World in the older sense. But there's a divison. The central distinction is between the Americans as the hitherto dominant Web-Users and all the others, which, however, have little if anything in common among them, but their disagreement with Americans.


I have a feeling, that Ghettos just have to come.

[ April 17, 2003, 00:55: Message edited by: Yago ]