Was Moses a miracle worker or Wizard

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 11 user(s) have voted.
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Poll Results: Moses: miracle worker or wizard? (11 votes.)

Moses: miracle worker or wizard? (Choose 1)
* Wizard - 36% (4)
* Tool of "God" - 64% (7)

Not sure I totally understand the question.

Are you asking:

- If he was a Miracle Worker, in the sense that his words and actions were truly the will of God, and he was the instrument through which God commanded the love and submission of man,

or

- If he was a Wizard, in the sense that all his words were no more than the mad ravings of a masterful hoaxer, eaten up by the gullable, desperate Hebrews; and his "Miracles" were elaborate stunts/fiction/coincidences or whatever,

or even still

- If he was a Wizard, he was so in the traditional storybook fantasy D&D LoTR sense? Using actual magic to create the miracles to sway the Hebrews to follow him and defy Egypt?

I'm not even sure I have an answer, I just don't quite understand the question.

Assuming Moses was responsible for those actions

As Morgoth said assuming he was the "perfomer" not any other.

Right, going on the assumption, at least for the sake of this particular arguement, that those events did actually take place and Moses did actually exist. I assume GreenLion is asking for our personal interpretation of the 10 Commandments, but I'll let him clarify for sure.

I didn't vote as I don't understand the question either, but I'll put in my 2 cents -- I believe Moses did actually perform the miracles attributed to him, and that he did so by the grace of God. He was neither a trickster nor a practicer of Dark arts.

I took a class on the Old Testament in college. The instructor was a Jewish anthropologist from Israel. It was very interesting. There are many arguments as a result of the translations as to who, what and even where regarding this story.

That said, the Bible as we know it today is a book of history commingled with proverbial lore. Its value as a historical tool is dubious. The remaining ancient scrolls that were copied in Hebrew are of historical interest, but still not 100 percent reliable.

The Dr. who taught this class had studied some of these ancient scrolls, and newer copies of other scrolls. As a Jew, he is literate in Hebrew, so he can interpret them himself. In his opinion, the basic story of Moses is true, but it is also filled with fictional symbolism, especially in translations to modern Latin based languages.

He did not deny that some miracles may have taken place, but the timing of them could also be represented as coincidental. According to said Dr., the parting of the "Red Sea" never happened. The path the Hebrews took was across another smaller body of water, one that in those times was many miles across, but very shallow. The winds at times could literally blow the sea back 10 miles, leaving the ground dry for days. However when the winds stopped blowing, a few inches to a couple of feet of water would come rushing back. If you were in the middle of this, you probably signed you own death warrant, because as the ground was moistened, it softened, and you would sink into it. If you didn't get out quickly, you would be stuck and die of exposure, or lack of water (it was a very salty body of water).

Was it a miracle that the water was blown back long enough for the Hebrews to make their escape across it, but not allow the Egyptians to follow? That is between you and God. :)

That said, I couldn’t vote, as I do not believe in the accuracy of either answer.

My answer's going to be pretty obvious ... MIRACLE WORKER.

Darkwolf ... I could take issue with almost all of your points. The Bible is accurate, and Moses did perform those miracles. But that's a whole other topic.

Most of the miracles happen in the book of Exodus. Here we see Moses standing on behalf of Yahweh (the Lord) taking on the magicians of Egypt. For example they were all able to turn their staffs into snakes. Moses' snake (better translated dragon) devoured the snakes of the magicians. The first few plagues were duplicated by the magicians also, but with less potency.

The supernatural reality was that the Lord was going to war against the gods of Egypt, proving that he was more powerful. Pharaoh was supposed to be Horus (iirc) incarnate. Pharaoh's first born son was also considered to be divine. When all the first born children were killed (appropriate topic for the Passover today) Pharaoh's son was also killed.

In other words, the Lord destroyed the divine heir to the throne of Egypt.

As it says in one passage, "In this way I declare war on all the gods of Egypt."

To sum, in the battle of magic verses miracle, miracle made a decisive victory!

Mathetais,

I generally cannot find fault with you, but the King James, and American Standard versions of the bible contain many translation errors. The King James Version was edited with an agenda for its intended audience, and the same could be said for the A.S. Prejudice (not in a negative connotation here) is impossible to avoid in the translation of such a large and diverse document, especially as it was written over a period of several thousand years.

Philosophically, I agree with the Bible. It is a guide to life. If read and properly interpreted (by the reader!), it will provide guidance to most of life’s difficult decisions. However, some of the stories have been changed in translation to suit the purposes of those who are publishing it. Further, if taken to extreme, it can provide a dogma for those whose agendas are not what the Bible truly endorses.

Blindly following anything is just as bad as having no faith in anything. They both lead to a life of despair and waste.

That said, I am not saying that though the power of God, Moses did not perform those miracles, I am just providing a professional's opinion. You and I are both free to agree or disagree. I do not believe that such discussions are sacrilege.

Nor do I. In fact, I'll go further ... the King James Version is a terrible translation based on a crappy manuscript (to use technical terms ;) )

We're getting closer to the originals through better translation and archeology. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed alot for us.

I'm just glad you used "proverbial lore" instead of "mythology".

Striving to be an educated fundamentalist ... :good:

O.K. first i won't even try to mess with Mathetais, obviously he possess great faith or someone has him completley brainwashed (no offence intended).

Second, Depaara you refer to the "dark arts", if such powers are available to man, would they not be granted by "God"? Why is it that Moses can use them but any other man or woman is deemed evil?

These are the Boards of Magic.

Third, Death Rabbit the ten commandments are a different subject alltogether, i'm trying to focus on Moses himself, the Bible shuns witchcraft in any form, and yet the first hero presented to us seems to be a mage.

Mat,

Not that you probably care a whole lot, but you just restored all of my faith in you! :) (not that you had lost a lot, just a tiny bit)

Thanks for the clarification on your stance. :cool:

Moses was not a magician, wizard or sorcerer. He rather was a 'Cleric of JHWH'. God gave him the power to do miracles, only because he trusted in Gods power.
Many people may have believed that Moses staff was magical. But when Moses hitted a rock in the desert to get water out of it, he was not allowed to enter the promised land, since God told him to SPEAK to the rock. It was not the staff, but Gods will and grace that water poured out of the rock.

On GreenLion's question about Dark Arts:
Not only Moses was granted to do miracles. Elia burned an altar, when 40 priest of Baal could not. With Gods help, Elisa 'summoned' gallons of oil for a poor widow and brought a child back from death. I believe there are still people granted with a special gift (exceptional healing by prayers). The most important thing that this is not Dark Arts, is the intention why people do it: to glorify the name of God.
There are others who do tricks, miracles and things with an other intention. Can't tell for sure that it is Dark Magic.

On Math's comment about the eaten snakes:
There is a man in my church who visited a meating once, where weird, extraordinairy things happened, and he didnt feel comfy. The man who was leading that meating asked the group if there was a christian in the room and if so, if he would leave, because he wasn't able to do his stuff. Seems that the will of God and His presence is still a big influence.

BTW: Im not very into this magic-stuff, and I dont plan to get involved with it either...

On the Dark Arts ... according to my belief system, all supernatural powers come from God or from Satan. So even "white magic" would be drawn from satanic orgins.

:yot: This might be a good, new thread.

wait if "white magik" comes from "Satan" then what supernatural powers come from "God"?

indoor plumbing?

is DarkWolf staring the "Church of Mathetias"?
i'm sure Mat himself would tell you to have faith in none other than God, the alpha and omega oh, wait that's Taluntain.

[ April 17, 2003, 00:24: Message edited by: Greenlion420 ]

Greenlion, when I refered to the 10 Commandments, I meant Moses and his story, as told by the Bible or Charleton Heston or whoever - not "Thou Shalt Not ______". So we're clear now. My bad for not explaining it better.

For my 2 cents, if I see him as anything, it's a cleric. Mages derive their power through study and harness magical energy, where as clerics derive their power directly from the god they serve. He received council as well as power from his god, and I can't see a true mage doing that. Hence, cleric.

Well said DeathRabbit, however the feats perfomed by Moses would hardly fall under the category of cleric spells.

Divine Magic, does it exist or is that another topic?

[ April 17, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: Greenlion420 ]

Actually the feats he performed are exactly what a cleric would do, we're not talking in the D&D sense here and he did performe the sort of miracles expected of priests today. I'm going into the realm of theory here but intense, modulated concentration can affect the environment. The reason prayer groups work is that the intense focus generated affects the world around them, the thing is that mages work in exactly the same way.

Ditto to Raistlin - I wasn't referring specifically to D&D clerics, just those who allow themselves to be a channel for the power of their god, and use that power to do God's will, rather than their own. I think a mage would serve himself, rather than a god. The miracles would then be demonstrations of his own power, not God's. Also, the power of the god would vary depending on the intention and temperment of that god - so to say Moses' miracles don't fall under the category of 'cleric' is open to subjective interpretation. Using D&D as a reference, Druids powers deal with nature and the elements, as they follow a difference ethos and serve different Gods than your standard cleric, but they both channel Godly powers nonetheless.

It's been said that a miracle is defined as "when God makes the impossible possible." Moses performed these miracles as demonstrations of God's power, not his own. I see Moses as a cleric because he and God needed each other to get their point across. God theoretically could have easily performed those miracles himself, yet had Moses attempt to convince both Egypt and the Hebrews of his position, only resorting to performing the miracles as proof of God's presence and power when his claims fell on deaf ears. God needed Moses to perform these miracles in a manner that would specifically demonstrate God's will, otherwise how would those who witness the miracle know it's purpose? These 'miracles' would then be open to any number of theories as to their origin and meaning - thereby effectively defusing their purpose. A flashing message following a miracle saying, "This Swarm of Locusts was Brought to You by...GOD!" isn't as powerful anyway. :)

Clerics of today evoke a similar power, in a way. Not by parting seas, but through the idea that they have god's ear and they impose God's consequences. If the Hebrews didn't believe, and the Egyptians didn't comply, they would suffer the wrath of God. Is that not true today with sinning and the threat of hell and damnation? Do god's will, or else. :flaming: It's not God who states this, but the cleric on God's behalf.


(Did that come out clear or did I start to ramble? :rolling: :spin: )

[ April 17, 2003, 02:41: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

hey, now this is starting a different topic so go start it.

this is about whether Moses was a wizard in his own right or only acting as a physical mouthpiece for "God".

The latter.

Thought I was explaining that very point, but I'll shut up now.

(Those pesky rants are easy to go off on.)

Greenlion, I'll try to explain where I was coming from -- sorry if I go off topic, but I am responding to a question posed in this thread.

"The Dark Arts", as I used the term, would mean that Moses obtained his powers from someone or something Dark (like the Devil, or a demon, or whatever). What Moses did, he did with God's power (God = not Dark) and because God called him to do so. The results were similar (Moses and the Pharoah's magicians) but the "power source", as it were, was different. I was trying to say that Moses was not a follower of an evil path (at least according to the Bible, and what I believe. Those who believe that God is evil, go to the thread about it and post there.)

Does that answer your question, Greenlion?

Oh thats weird, I thought Satan was the bringer of light ;)

wait if "white magik" comes from "Satan" then what supernatural powers come from "God"?

indoor plumbing? According to my interpretation of the Bible, people are either disciples of Christ or anti-christ.

I know "good" Wiccans who use their craft to benefit those around them. They, however, deny the diety and resurrection of Christ. So even if they are healing and driving out demons, they still get their power from Satan.

There are stories like this in the book of Acts.
Simon the Magi gave up his arcane magical powers, burned his books and coverted to Christianity. (Then he tried to bribe Peter and John for their divine empowerment, but that's another story ;) )

The sons of Sceva were driving out demons "In the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches..." until one of the demons turned on them and said, "Jesus I know and Paul I know, but who are you!?!" and gave them such a beating that they fled from the house naked. (Great stuff in the Bible!)

BTW Greenlion420 .... this is one of the best topics in the Alley lately!

[ April 17, 2003, 16:08: Message edited by: Mathetais ]

According to my interpretation of the Bible, people are either disciples of Christ or anti-christ. As in with us, or against us?

Yes, but Jesus said it before the defense department did ;)

From Matthew 12
Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[4] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
30" He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Wow, I could almost start to worship Satan just because all the nifty powers he would grant me. You guys make brilliant advertising!

What about all other holy men throughout *mythology*? Were they too working for God or Satan or are they just stories? If so what then makes Herkules into a mytholical figure out of faeritales and Moses into gods man on planet earth?

joacqin ... worshiping Satan may give some "nifty powers" but the retirment benefits are hellish! :good:

How do you know? ever been in hell??
Maybe it´s even more rewarding than heaven

All that with or against us stuff made me think of a pennywise video, which I´m not gonna quote here since I am in dire need of tact :shake:

Well, Joaquin, the simple answer to that is that one set of stories actually happened, and the other didn't! However, as has been stated so many times before, that boils down to faith and belief, which is, I guess what this whole thread was about -- do you believe Moses was:

a) A messenger or prophet of God
b) a charlatan
c) A mythical person
d) A real person who was evil but claimed to be a prophet of God.

All of these responses rely on a certain degree of faith, as since no one was there who is posting now, we cannot report from a firsthand perspective.

BTW Greenlion420... this is one one of the best topics in the alley latley! thank you Mathetais, and this topic was posted just for you, :) but i thought i'd get everyone's views as well.


also this topic was not actually inspired by the accounts of Moses as written in the Bible, but rather the "6th and 7th Books of Moses".

Mathetais.... have you heard of or read the aforementioned text?

Through Moses, God performed miracles. Through pharoah's sorcerers, Satan performed feats as well. That's how it is presented in the Bible, and that's how I feel. I also believe all one has to do is ask for wisdom and discernment from God when it comes to understanding the Bible despite translation to grasp the intended meaning. With a clear mind and good intentions, all you need to do is ask God and insight will be provided. And that can override any "discrepancy" or "fudging" in translation and at the same time allow you to believe without "following blindly".

Also, this was mentioned:

"How do you know? ever been in hell??
Maybe it´s even more rewarding than heaven."

For one, God promises it won't be pretty. I take His Word for it. Secondly, Satan has limited reign on this earth. In Hell Satan has full reign (except when Jesus steps in, as He did by dying on the cross, descending into Hell, and then ascending into Heaven). If you think life is bad and can be harsh, just get a load of Hell. Here on earth Satan is limited to what he can do to you because of God's overriding authority and protection (whether you believe in Him or not.) But once this grace period comes to an end and you still don't follow God, then you have only one other entity to follow, and that's Satan. And then you're in his hands. And knowing that he iniated and is in part responsible for the decay and destruction of mankind, means that eternity with him won't be pretty at all.

And do you follow God or Satan?

You prob answer God, but how do you know?
Satan hides from us through our ignorance, who can ever suspect God to be evil, aren´t we ignorant on that part?

also this topic was not actually inspired by the accounts of Moses as written in the Bible, but rather the "6th and 7th Books of Moses". Never heard of them. Got a link, I'd love to read up on them.

:good:

Mathetais... i don't know if they're posted anywhere online, but i'll look. I purchased the book from a company called "Hamilton Supply" and i'm not sure if they have a site or not, once again, i'll look.

in regards to the text, supposedly these two "books" were originally intended to be included in the Bible but were left on the editing room floor. by who or why i'm not sure.
However this text deals directly with wizardry and Demonology and even (though not very detailed) instruct the reader in the art of summoning demons.

Still interested? or is this another hornet's nest ;)

"in regards to the text, supposedly these two "books" were originally intended to be included in the Bible but were left on the editing room floor."

More proof that not just anything is allowed to make it's way into the Bible. I believe the Bible is accurate.

More proof that not just anything is allowed to make it's way into the Bible. I believe the Bible is accurate. Depends on the intentions and goals of the person or group that is deciding what's in and what's out.

And with the old Roman Church and the Jewish priests as editors, the bible gets more inacurrate than people claim...

It is absolutely certain that the Bible and generally every script that was written in the early cristian times (during or near the time Jesus lived) was submitted to censorship by the Churches (all of them). They all tried to present things in a way more suited to their beliefs. :eek:
But some incidents could not be changed i.e. the Old Testament has not so many recent changes due to the fact that is indeed the written history of the Jewish nation. The Churches didn't change something that would not affect their beliefs in any way since it is reffering to the time before Jesus was born :)

BTW, the gospels were written years after Jesus died. His followers believed the second coming was soon. When it became apparent that it wasn't they started putting it in writing. This is one reason that I don't take everything in the Bible literally.

Also would it matter to you that the gospel of John, for example, was written by at least five different people?

Sorry Charlie, but the Gospel of John was not written by at least five people. Talk about a statment based completely on faith!

I love how people sit back and lob verbal bombs at the Bible's authority without offering proof. I guess its an easy target, but none of the charges stick.

Lets go compare ancient manuscripts. There is more proof that Jesus rose from the dead than that Alexander the Great lived.

Actually, Moses was really just an avenue through which God worked. It wasn't like Moses walked around slinging spells. God worked through Moses to free the Israelites from captivity and give them the law.

Charlie - As for the writings of the Apostles, these were men directly guided by the Holy spirit to record the things they had seen. They did not write these things just because the end wasn't coming fast enough - they wrote them so that people would believe - John 20:31:

"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

Lets go compare ancient manuscripts. There is more proof that Jesus rose from the dead than that Alexander the Great lived. Let´s shoot in another ancient manuscript, claiming that even Jesus said he didn´t rise

The evangelion of Fillipus 21:

They who say, "the Lord first died and then stood up" are lost.
Because he rose up first and then died, if somebody doesn´t rise, he cannot die.
Only if God resides in him, he can die.

Another interesting part:

14
Some say:
Maria is made pregnant by the holy spirit, they are lost, they don´t know what they are saying.
Since when can a woman ever get impregnated by another woman?

Both said by Jesus

This book and others, each written by one of Jesus´s disciples, are all lost during the reign of early Roman Catholic church, to make the bible more accurate? But they were guided by the holy spirit??

Obsessed by power, even killing each other..
Holier-than-thou in their castles of marmer and gold, while Jesus drank from nothing more than a wooden cup.


Charlie - As for the writings of the Apostles, these were men directly guided by the Holy spirit to record the things they had seen. They did not write these things just because the end wasn't coming fast enough - they wrote them so that people would believe - John 20:31:
And what about Paul? He claimed men was far superior to the women in IIRC Corinthians, the womans should be always ask permission to their husband to speak and sit quietly in church.
Was he not guided by the Holy Ghost? And what about Jacobus, he praised Paul for his work, was he not guided..
Or did the Holy Ghost had a union break?

[ April 29, 2003, 08:52: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

Lets go compare ancient manuscripts. There is more proof that Jesus rose from the dead than that Alexander the Great lived. That's a little bit exaggerated.

[ April 25, 2003, 00:18: Message edited by: Yago ]

Mat,

I'll recheck my sources and get back to you. ;)

Quicksylver,

That doesn't disprove what I'm saying. They did want to share Jesus' teachings. It doesn't mean that they wrote down the gospels as each event occured. They do in fact contradict each other.

Well, I did expect to ruffle some feathers. :D

well if ancient manuscripts are coming into play, how about the Egyptian Book of the Dead?

anyone know the name Ptah? or what symbol he's represented by? or for that matter how that symbol came into being?

Hm, concerning sources of the Bible. Moses went up on a hill, had a meeting with god. And god gave him the laws of Babylon ??????

Maybe Moses was farsighted and walked up a Ziggurat :heh:

Maybe Tal should close the topic. (hint hint)

Really you all should "check out" the 6th & 7th books of Moses. i can't make sense of it, but it sure raises some questions.

Hmmm.. yeah well we discussed most of it now, so that the dangers of spamfests come closer and closer..

But I will check the books then,

There is no point in perpetuating this topic if you have nothing to say. If you want it to die and go away, the easiest way to do that is not to post. :rolleyes:

Pardon me for coming late to this discussion, but what exactly separates the "natural" and "supernatural"? Let me illustrate what I mean with a story:

An Indian sage (East Indian) was having a little difficulty with one of his pupils. One day, his student came to him with a troubled look. "Master, I don't know if I even have faith anymore. How do I know that the things you teach are true?"

The sage got slowly up. "Come with me into the garden, my child," he replied. Together they entered the garden, and the sage knelt upon the ground. He took a seed of corn and planted it in the ground. In a few moments, a green sprig pushed up, sprouted leaves, and began growing into a stalk. As the astonished student watched, the stalk folded out, spread its leaves, sprouted buds, and blossomed into a rose. He blurted, "Now I believe! This is truly a miracle!" The sage smiled and shook his head. "My son, open your eyes. The process may be slower, but this happens every spring. Life itself is the miracle."

But

1) I see nobody taking responsibilty for those "miracles",

2) I ask again, what exactly is life?

Mat,

Just so this is isn't hanging:

Gospel of John I (http://www.cresourcei.org/biblestudy/bbjohn1.html)

Gospel of John II (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08438a.htm#III)

Even if it wasn't written by one person, it doesn't change the message or the truth oh the Gospel of John.