I saw in the news the other day the pillaging of the Baghdad museum and i was furstrated because of the lack of respect the US army showed by not guarding the Museum. You see the oil wells where of great importance the culture of Iraq was nothing too serious.
The minister of culture in Greece was forced to ask from the minister of culture of England to have the coallition force to dispatch troops for the safeguarding of the museum.
Why did he addressed to England; Because US have not a ministry of culture. Can you tell me your thoughts about this;
A Greek tv satirical show some years before (during the attack in Kossovo) said that if your country's history fits into a stamp how can you respect the history of any other country? Guess to which country they were referring to. This is somehow harsh but i tend to believe it.
Collin Powell said after the worlds outcry that the relics lost shall be found and there is no need for cries. Ok and what about the destroyed statues and relics will US glue them back; :mad:

[ April 16, 2003, 09:37: Message edited by: Mithrantir ]

Who cares about a few million year old stones? All stones are old like that. There are things that are important and others that aren't. I mean, I'd bet a couple of americans have heared the word mesopotamia first with the war (this, of course is a wild guess, and born from prejudice).

So the the US forces reportedly will not undertake any efforts to count iraqi civilian deaths - as that could only give them a bad press.

I watched culture report on TV. They expect that some of these treasures are gone forever, manly those which can't be sold. Others are expected to turn up to horrendous prices.

The same thing happened in 1991 in Gulf-war 2. A lot of treasures "disappeared".

I mean those artefacts are worth millions.

And there is a rumour going around, that in the US, a certain pressure group has made proposals to put big wholes in the laws concerning the import of cultural artefacts.

BBC:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/

Archaeologists are worried that items looted in Iraq may already have left the country and, in some cases, found their way onto the international market.

Critics have asked why museums were left vulnerable despite repeated warnings about the dangers to priceless works before the conflict began.

Despite Mr Powell's assurances, there are fears that many objects may have been be lost forever.

After the 1991 Gulf War, 4,000 pieces disappeared when regional museums were looted.

Donny George, archaeologist at the museum, said: "It was the leading collection of a... continuous history of mankind.

"And it's gone, and it's lost. If marines had started before, none of this would have happened.

"It's too late, it's no use, it's no use."



[ April 16, 2003, 11:22: Message edited by: Yago ]

You know, IMO (and maybe most disagree with me), it is a total load of BS to blame the museum and library destruction on the US because the soldiers didn't protect it from the Iraqis. Who the hell would have thought that the Iraqi people would destroy their own artifacts? And even if it was anticipated, what would they have done? Opened fire on civilians for destroying stuff? I'm sure *that* would have gone over big with you. :rolleyes: Don't place your anger on the US soldiers, place it on those idiotic Iraqis who decided to destroy their own culture's heritage.

I could have understood stealing valuable treasures, and in that case there could have been a chance of recovering them, but to simply destroy and burn libraries and museums? That I don't understand.

BTA, the behaviour of the Iraqi people is easy enough to understand -- it's the mob mentality, and that happens everywhere. Look at riots in the States. Blacks will smash and loot stores owned by other blacks in the name of "responding to white prejudice." Aryan nations folks will destroy white property because they hate blacks. it makes no logical sense, but when you are going wild and having a riot in the streets, logic takes a walk.

The U.S. cannot do everything, or cater to every single agenda out there, be that agenda left or right, Christian or secular. To my mind, their goals must be a) the elimination of the Saddamite regime and b) keeping their own soldiers alive. Other goals may exist, but the U.S. is not going to risk soldiers to battle civilian stupidity. If they want to pillage their own culture, let them go for it!

I also have to back up BTA's comment -- what would the liberals have wanted the troops to do -- open fire on civilians? Or maybe use batons or bayonets to beat back the crowds? Back to my main thesis on American policy: They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I've seen some TV reporters in a museum in Baghdad, they followed a crying lady trough out the building until they found some looters still inside. The looters fled, they were thieves not soldiers, nor assassins. Imo if you put an angry-looking GI at the door (with 300k troops in Iraq there's got to be someone available), looters scared by reporters won't try to enter.

US invade Iraq, bomb cities, but who's to blame for the disorder, Iraqies ... that's too much.

The victim mentality I see these days just gets my goat. It's everybody's fault except for the people doing it. "It's understandable that the Iraqis would want to destroy their own stuff; those damned Americans should have protected them from themselves!" What a load of BS (again IMO).

What a load of BS (again IMO). Yours, mine, and I'm sure a lot of others', BTA!

While we're on the subject of Iraqi antiquities, why don't we discuss the millenia-old gate that Saddam destroyed to build that statue of himself, y'know, the one that was pulled down recently?

Did you know that Army commanders were supplied with a list of 147 separate sites of archaeological significance prior to the war starting? Of course the archaeologists had abotu 700 more, but they had to start somewhere. I'd like to see an assessment about how the listed sites fared and what measures were taken to protect them. Also, prior to any bombs falling I saw TV news reports of people taking treasures out of the museum for safekeeping and making other preparations. So where (and in what condition) are those removed items now?

You said it, Depaara - damned if we do, damned if we don't. :mad:

Oxymore, you must be joking? Who is performing the looting? Iraqis. Are they doing it to get food that the U.S. is denying them? Absolutely not -- they're not looting foodstores, they're looting museums. The concept of personal resposibility applies here -- if you are doing something, then you are responsible for what you are doing, not the guy down the street. It would be like me hitting my wife and then trying to say it's the fault of the policeman who lives next door for not stopping me.

What the liberals wanted the americans to do ? Respect the law, maybe ?


http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,245010,00.html


Nein, denn die Völkerrechtsordnung verbietet ganz eindeutig, dass man Plünderungen zulässt. Die Besatzungsmacht muss, wenn sie die tatsächliche Gewalt übernommen hat, alle notwendigen Vorkehrungen treffen, um die öffentliche Ordnung wiederherzustellen. Es ist ganz eindeutig, dass man diese Plünderungen hätte unterbinden müssen. Das gilt ganz besonders für die Krankenhäuser, die unter dem ausdrücklichen Schutz der vierten Genfer Konvention stehen.

Die Amerikaner müssten jetzt verschärft die Grenzen kontrollieren, um zu verhindern, dass geraubte Kunstgegenstände außer Landes geschmuggelt werden. Und sie müssten, so möglich, die Kunstgegenstände wiederbeschaffen, ja, sie womöglich sogar ankaufen, wenn sie irgendwo auf dem Kunstmarkt auftauchen.

(... wenn nicht ...) Dann wird der Irak früher oder später die USA zum Schadenersatz auffordern können, jedenfalls das finanziell wieder gut zu machen, was nur irgendwie möglich ist.

International law forbids to tolerate lootings. The occupying force must do everything necessary to restore law and order. It's clear that the lootings that took place had to be prevented. Especally lootings in hospitals, because they are under the explicit protection of the 4th geneva convention.

Americans must prevent, that stolen artiefacts are smuggled outside the country. And the americans are responsible to get the artefacts back. If necessary, the americans are compelled to buy the artefacts back from the black market.

(... if not ...) Iraq will be entitled to demand compensation for damages from the USA... I read somewhere else, that it's quite possible a case of professional theft, what happend in the museums. And those artefacts are "priceless". But Powell acknowledged negligence and responsibility of the americans.

Oh, I forgot, weaponinspector Rumsfeld has declared international law and the common law of england void. No, really, I wonder, what if i buy something from the USA ? Will the contract be valid ?
Yes, I am seriously worried about international law concerning commercial issues, like a plane ticket ? Are tickets for a plane anything worth anymore ?

Rumsfeld has declared international law and the common law of england void. Don't worry, Yago, that's not within the scope of his authority. Besides, American corporations- especially software firms and Hollywood - would never allow to happen something that would so grieviously jeopardize their fight against international pirating.

Deepara, if the policeman who lives next door sees you hitting your wife and does nothing then he has to be blamed. As Yago quoted: "The occupying force must do everything necessary to restore law and order"

PS - I never said Iraqies were innocent, but since the US invaded Iraq, it's their duty to maintain public order.

[ April 16, 2003, 18:51: Message edited by: Oxymore ]

Interesting stuff, Yago -- I've been educated. Of course the Americans should try to put law and order back together, I just want it realized that while they do so they need to take into account the risk factor. Aside from that, though, the real criminals are the ones actually doing the looting! Under some of the arguments presented here, these Iraqi looters are simple children, morons in fact, who simply don't know any better than to loot like crazy. I don't buy that for a second. They know what they are doing is wrong, and the blamce for their illegal and immoral activites should rest squarely on their shoulders. What I said about what level of force should be used stands as well. If even ONE looter was shot, for whatever reason, the liberals would be up in arms, saying things like "what is more important? Antiquities or HUMAN LIFE? Those evil Americans have no respect for Iraqi lives." I can hear Susan Sarandon now, talking about how artifacts are all the Americans care about, not the here and now well-being of the Iraqi people.

As for hospitals, that's another story altogether, but again, the blame needs to go on the people actually doing the damn looting! Given limited resources, what should the Americans and British guard? Hospitals or museums? Now, if they're doing a poor job of both, that's one thing, but I think that hospitals deserve more attention than museums.

Wow, another thread bashing America here at SP. I'm shocked. Did you know that an Iraqi child caught a nasty cold yesterday? French and German media are blaming the US Military for carrying "illegal viruses" into Iraq. International law clearly states that an occupying army should make sure to cover their noses when they sneeze, and some Marines were seen using napkins instead of UN sanctioned Kleenexes.

:shake:

This is getting crazy.

I could walk into the Art Institute of Chicago right now and destroy a few priceless pieces of art. Security is minimal and many works are right in the open.

I choose not to. Not because I love America. Personally, I hate the politics in Chicago, and the liberals have so screwed the economy that I'm paying over 30% of my income in useless taxes.

I think abortion is murder, but I choose to respect the law and not burn down Planned Parenthood centers.

Its called ethics, a moral compass, a personal relationship with God.

Over 70% of Iraqi's are Muslim. The Koran does not tolerate this sort of behavior. Where are the clerics protesting this? Instead, they're all busy trying to get control of the new government.

Did you notice the Anti-American protest yesterday? Signs that said "Bush=Sadam" (yeah, they misspelled his name) and more.

How did America Respond? We said, "Go ahead, exercise your freedom to assemble and your freedom of speech. That is what American, British and Australian men and woman have died for!"

Artifacts or Freedom. I think we delivered the more important of the two.

Wow, another thread bashing America here at SP Can't do anything against it. It's the way god made me. ;)

But as the saying goes, you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

And having hospitals looted and water supply damaged, isn't the best impression. It's not my fault that chief-weaponinspector Rumsfeld seems to be swamped with the "untidiness" of Iraq.

And the worst part of the Impression is that the buildings of the OIL-ministry were all very well secured.

Now, if an Iraqi mother learns, that her baby died because the hospitals were looted, whereas the documents concering Oil were save and sound. What would she think of Americans ?

And the successes now determine the time that US-Forces are able to stay in Iraq. Maybe, in six months the Iraqis get fed up with their altruistic invader, start a resistance movement and send Marines back in boxes. Who knows.

And the worst part of the Impression is that the buildings of the OIL-ministry were all very well secured.Looks like someone is believing the anti-American propaganda. :) The reports I've seen (and not just from American sources :) ) indicate that the OIL ministries in both Baghdad and Basra were looted just like all the other government buildings.

If that mother has a brain, she'll blame the looters for looting. As for the Americans looking after the oil wells, you could argue that this is simple narrow minded selfishness, or that it is them protecting the economic lifeblood of Iraq. Even if the American's are being selfish, they are not doing anything differently than any other conqueror would do, except for the fact that in the midst of their "selfishness" they are striving, not always successfully, but striving, to bring food, water, medical supplies and other necessities to the people they just conquered. And despite all the cynicism displayed, they will soon turn the governance of the Iraq over to the Iraqi people. Will they still have a great deal of control? Of course. Will whatever regime comes into place in Iraq be better than Saddam's for the people there? You bet it will. In the next few months, the number of people that will not be killed or tortured by the saddamite regime will far outnumber those who were killed during the invasion. I know doing math with lives seems heartless, and doesn't help the people who lost loved ones during the invasion, but facts are facts.

Oh, I forgot, weaponinspector Rumsfeld has declared international law and the common law of england void. No, really, I wonder, what if i buy something from the USA ? Will the contract be valid ?

Yes, I am seriously worried about international law concerning commercial issues, like a plane ticket ? Are tickets for a plane anything worth anymore ? Say what?

1) Support please.

2)It seems like your conclusions are completely unrelated to the topic, could you please lay out how you get from point A (Baghdad museum was looted) to point 65413546746421316549665 (the death of contract law)?

BTA wrote: Looks like someone is believing the anti-American propaganda. The reports I've seen (and not just from American sources ) indicate that the OIL ministries in both Baghdad and Basra were looted just like all the other government buildings. Ah, me ?

From Reuters:

LONDON (Reuters) - Human rights group Amnesty International accused U.S.-led forces on Tuesday of being better prepared for the defense of Iraq's oil wells than of its people and infrastructure.

"There seems to have been more preparation to protect the oil wells than to protect hospitals, water systems or civilians," Irene Khan, secretary-general of the British-based group, told a news conference in London.

Ghadban said there was no comparison with the situation after the Gulf War, when key oil production, storage and export facilities were destroyed and Iraq managed to get the system operating without help. This time, he said, the damage seemed to be far more limited so the process would be easier.
Ghadhban said the oil ministry in Baghdad, the headquarters for operations of the state-run oil sector, had been looted like other ministries, with computers and furniture stolen. Interesting. From 2 different articels at Reuters. Now, they don't contradict themselves. Both state:

A. There was a plan from the Military to protect the OIL-related infrastructure.

B. This plan obviously worked. The Oil-infrastructure is mostly intact. And the documents concerning OIL ARE safe and sound. K, I minor drawback, furniture and computers were looted.

My conclusion. Bottom line is still the same. The Weaponinspector-in-chief Rumsfeld has failed to deliver a working plan to protect the civil infrastructure. He was swamped with the untidiness of "freedom".

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. And I think the secure in TV-stations embedded generals were quite right with their stern judgement of Rumsfeld's achievements.

At Depaara: If that woman has a brain (I actually fancy myself from time to time to have a brain too :D ), she's free to think (Bush promised that) and draw her own conclusions. And I think her anger will turn to the invaders. Who failed misarebly to secure law and order. Acutally because they miscalculated the whole thing.

Which was my humble opinion from the beginning. Huge miscalculation. The wolfowitz plan to "reshape" the middle east is worth nothing and will get the americans in a terrible mess.

At Laches:

International Law demands that the US pays for the financial damage inflicted to the museum. But:

The USA has stated (not only concerning the war) that it feels not longer bound to international treates when they're not convient (like Tokyo). International law also covers trade relations between countries (for example WTO, Treaties concering air-travel). Or, like Rallymama stated, international treaties concerning intellectual property. So, who can say, which treaty they chose next to break ?

[ April 16, 2003, 22:53: Message edited by: Yago ]

Yago - You're changing your tune :) Your original accustaion was about the oil ministries, and now that that's been proven false (even by your own quotes above) you're switching to the oil infrastructure.

Also, "being better prepared" is perhaps true. Maybe because destruction of oil infrastructure by the regime was anticipated, while destruction of cultural treasures by the Iraqi people was not?

Finally, making comparisons between this war and the Gulf War with respect to oil infrastructure destruction is pointless since the goals were quite different. You should be pointing out the difference with approval that the US destroyed much less this time around.

BTA, you're a pain :D

Yago - You're changing your tune Your original accustaion was about the oil ministries, and now that that's been proven false (even by your own quotes above) you're switching to the oil infrastructure. Arright. I don't look it up in the dictionary, but my definiton of "infrastructure" is, every structure, physical or social, needed for the purpose. So, Oil-infrastructure does include for me (a layman :D ) raffineries, pipe-lines, transportation and the bureaucracy (the oil ministry, including it's employees and files).

BTA wrote:

Also, "being better prepared" is perhaps true. Maybe because destruction of oil infrastructure by the regime was anticipated, while destruction of cultural treasures by the Iraqi people was not?

gotcha :happy: :D . They should have anticipated it, because they were warned.

From above:

Critics have asked why museums were left vulnerable despite repeated warnings about the dangers to priceless works before the conflict began.
Connection to 1991,2 Gulf War. Big scale robbery happened there already.

Robbery, theft -> priceless works. Articles I read presume a organized theft like 1991.Because someone took the time, and destroyed the inventary of the museum. Seems like someone or a number or different someones prepared for the opportunity, the war would give. Like WWII. There still finding priceless works which have "disappeared" in WWII.
Priceless means priceless $$$$$$$$

[ April 16, 2003, 23:18: Message edited by: Yago ]

Didn't mean to imply you had no brain, Yago! But I think she'll be angry at the looters who looted the hospitals. Going back to the sort of example I used earlier, if someone steals my car, I am angry at the thief, not the cops. No society has a 0 crime rate, and to expect the U.S. to be able to create one in Iraq is completely unfair and illogical. But the setup they will make, as I said before, is going to be much better than Saddam's, and in the end, that's what counts.

[ April 17, 2003, 07:06: Message edited by: Depaara ]

At Deepara. I was joking ;) . But nice you cared. :)

And the woman-issue. I think only time will tell. Maybe she's angry at both ?

I want to say that the people looting in Iraq are not only Iraqies people from neighbouring countries have smelled the opportunity and took their chances. And all of them the last thing they would like to do is to meddle with the invasion force.
So if the USA had put 10 or 15 soldiers within the museum and told them to stay there and show themselves once in a while there would be no looting.
Secondly BTA please stop the america bashing thing. I don't accuse the citizens of the USA i accuse the people in the goverment of USA. that is a different thing. If it is necessary i will accuse my own goverment if something goes wrong or bad because of her mistakes. This is not Greece bashing it is the truth and even if it is painfull it is essential for me.
Secondly yesterday i heard that some "people" tried to loot the synagogue of Baghdad. The Iraqies of the vicinity defended the synagogue if this tells you anything about the people of Iraq. They said afterwards that the jews lived so long with them that they feeled it was the only thing to do. Do you still thing that every looter is Iraqi;
And scums live everywhere meaning that maybe even some americans may have used this opportunity to enrich their collection of ancient artifacts don't forget that (that includes Greek scums too) :(

So if the USA had put 10 or 15 soldiers within the museum and told them to stay there and show themselves once in a while there would be no looting.You have no idea what it would have taken to prevent the looting, because you weren't there. There have been several instances where crowds of civilians stood up to the coalition forces to prevent them for going somewhere they didn't want.

Secondly BTA please stop the america bashing thing. I don't accuse the citizens of the USA i accuse the people in the goverment of USA. that is a different thing.Oh really? And where did I say you accused the citizens of the USA? You accused the US Army of a lack of respect because they didn't guard a museum. Are they the people in the government? No.

Do you still thing that every looter is Iraq; And scums live everywhere meaning that maybe even some americans may have used this opportunity to enrich their collection of ancient artifacts don't forget that As I pointed out, theft I could understand, and I don't feel that is such a horrible thing because at least the artifacts still exist, and there's a chance for recovery. It is the mindless destruction of these things that I don't understand. What would a foreigner gain by the destruction? Why would someone from outside the country come into a war zone to destroy antiquities?

Here we go again. I stopped reading after the first five posts. I think the point is that SOMEONE should try to protect these cultural treasures. Perhaps coalition troops are the best choice. Who the f*** cares why these treasures are being looted or destroyed. The fact is they are.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2958009.stm

Three White House cultural advisers have resigned in protest at the failure of US forces to prevent the looting of Iraq's national museum - home to artefacts dating back 10,000 years.

"It didn't have to happen", Martin Sullivan - who chaired the President's Advisory Committee on Cultural Property for eight years - told Reuters news agency.

"In a pre-emptive war that's the kind of thing you should have planned for," he said.

Wow.

BTA, I'm impressed. Right down to the quotes, and rhetorical questions, that is exactly what I've been thinking all this time.

Good call!

Because oil is more important.

Iraq has culture???

When Europeans were living in caves, the people of Mesopotamia developed the first civilization. So, the answer to your question is yes, Iraq has a culture and a history of almost 5000 years.

Iraq has culture??? Iraq has YOUR culture. Mesopotamia is the cradle of western civilization. The development of the alphabet, with which you write now, started there. Ever heard of Babylon, the Hanging Gardens, Adam and Eve, Abraham or the famous law code of Hammurabi. It's still cited today:"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

You have no idea what it would have taken to prevent the looting, because you weren't there. Neither were you BTA and it would worth the effort. IMO the need for protection of the museum would not be so demanding because most of the people who got in there just wanted to loot and not to engage in a fight. In case of a fight there would be many civilians who would oppose the looters.
And where did I say you accused the citizens of the USA? You accused the US Army of a lack of respect because they didn't guard a museum. Are they the people in the government? No No they aren't but they represent the goverment by following orders issued by the goverment aren't they;
theft I could understand, and I don't feel that is such a horrible thing because at least the artifacts still exist, and there's a chance for recovery From whom; the US army can't keep the order how on earth will they find out who took them; And don't forget that there are many private collections that don't officially exist. Most chances are that these artifacts will end up there.
It is the mindless destruction of these things that I don't understand. What would a foreigner gain by the destruction? Why would someone from outside the country come into a war zone to destroy antiquities? They destroyed the statues and pieces that could not be removed without trucks in order to take pieces of them.
Iraq has culture??? Much greater than most nations in the world.
That includes your country. :rolleyes:

The last report I heard stated that the "looting" was much more like a highly planned heist. THAT would be very difficult to stop, even in a country that's stable at the moment.

No one, not even the Americans themselves, claimed to be able to step in and create Utopia in a day. Why isn't there a thread about Saddam's palaces, or the prisons that had children in them, or the relief work being done by the military trying to restore services? I'll answer that: these topics don't make the Americans look bad. I'm all for seeing the other side of things -- the coalition is not lily white, and neither are the Americans as a whole, but spare me the ridiculous attempts to make them look like Satan himself. The bottom line is, the people who took those things are criminals. Blaming their behaviour on the Americans is . . .yeah, I'm going to go overboard, just plain stupid. No one has ever successfully refuted my analogy about the wife beating (see above, April 16 post), all they did was ignore it and keep unreasonably bashing the Americans.

Why isn't there a thread about Saddam's palaces, or the prisons that had children in them, or the relief work being done by the military trying to restore services? I'll answer that: these topics don't make the Americans look bad Start one. :thumb:

But 2-3 tanks and a group of Marines would have been enough, I think. Confessing I don't have clue about troop movement. But they've been warned beforehand of an organised robbery (post above) and US-Officals have resigned in protest, indicating, there could have been something done.

I don't think Americans in general look bad, only Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush, Cheney and some in the Pentagon. Actually, Halle Berry looks nice. The Museum was just the tip of the iceberg, of a faulty plan called "reshaping the middle east".

They've more than likely been warned of hundreds, maybe thousands of possible scenarios, for which they can take precautions but cannot plausibly plan for and stop with 100% accuracy. Why on earth people are trying to pin the actions of group A (thieves, looters, whatever) on Group B (American troops, american military decision makers, etc) is beyond me.