Well, fellow SPers, we may be standing on the brink of the apocalypse, everything is in place. Such as the crisis in Iraq, well Baghdad is some few miles away from the site of Armageddon. The unleashing of Satan, can either be the retun of Saddam, or when Osama comes back. And the horseman have started to ride:
War: USA v. Iraq (duh)
Pestilince: SARS
Famine: North Korea
Death: All of the above
So do you agree with me or not?

Um. No. There have been all those things probably throughout the whole history of the world.

But all at once? And explain the site of Armageddon to me, if its not going to happen.

Maybe there is the possibility that the whole aspect of Armageddon is total bullsh*t. I mean it never happened before :rolleyes:

Sure there's always the chance that a meteorite will hit the earth and that I will call armageddon but not something that will be done by humans.

Well now? Humans can do anything.

All at once, many times over in far greater quantities than now.

WW1, Spanish Flu (1918 iirc), famine in Africa at least (Let's face it, there always is).

I don't know how many died in WW1, but it certainly ran into millions upon millions, Spanish Flu worldwide 30m+ ! That's a proper epidemic for you!

So no, no more valid now than it always has been, and probably always will be to some extent.

I believe in Armageddon, but I don't think that things right now are any more intense on the front of the 4 horsemen that were mentioned than it has ever been in the past. There's always a war going on somewhere, there's always an epidemic somewhere, and people somewhere are always starving. Those markers will have to increase by several orders of magnitude before I'll think the Apocalypse is upon us.

I agree with Blackthorne, those things existed since the start of the mankind's history and yes they existed together too,think about diseases, war and i bet that this Korea incident has a replica in history too.

Armageddon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0842332340/qid=1050609329/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-9132968-9090222?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) is book 11 of the LEFT BEHIND series, and hit the shelves just last week.

You're right, Armageddon is at hand! :lol:

Seriously, there have always been and always will be wars and rumors of wars. Personally, I don't think the end is at hand. While I look forward to Jesus' second coming, I know its going to get worse. There were more martyrs for the christian faith in the 20th century than all the other centuries combined ... and its going to get worse.

Is it at hand? From all indications, based on what Fundamentalist Christians say, it must be. Though war and pestilence is now out, famine--on a grand scale--is not yet. Nor death on such a big scale. But we might be on the brink. Again, that's a big if, since as the Bible says, no one knows the day nor the hour. So as Paul adviced, we must always be on the lookout for that hope.

I don't expect to see the end of the world in my lifetime. I'd rather expect to win in the lottery.

And the worst time in I can think of to be born in, is the time of the 30-years-war.

I saw this thread this morning but didn't have time to respond to it then.

My initial thoughts were, "Oh for ****s sake."

Viking stole my thunder. Even today, the war in Iraq is really small in scale relative to what is going on in Africa right now. Actually, it says something pretty profound that there is so much criticism of the humanitarian situation in Iraq created by the possible destruction of art or the dropping of "200,000" pound bombs on diners in Baghdad while Mugabe and company are up to their deeds. I'm not exactly sure what the profound statement is, but I'm sure it is profound, I'm just sure of it.

After having all day to think about this topic, and to absorb the subsequent responses, my new reasoned opinion is: "Oh, for ****s sake."

Fine but explain the fact that Baghdad is relativly close to the starting site of the final battle.

Coincidence. There have been many wars between christian countries and the Middle East. Until the last couple hundred years, its been nearly constant. There were probably cries of "Armageddon" than too, with more reason. Think of the Crusades. The attack by the english on Saladin? Unless I am mistaken, at this time the Black Plague was also occuring, and, like always, people were starving. Death was probably at its height during the Holocaust. Pestilence was either during the Black Plague or maybe right now, what with the huge amounts of diseases just recently discovered, such as HIV and Tuberculosis (I probably spelled that wrong) with their massive spread. I can't answer for the other two, one because famine is always going on on a grand scale in many places, and the other because I don't know who the 4th horseman is.

Fine but explain the fact that Baghdad is relativly close to the starting site of the final battle.I also would like to ask that question. Apparently, it has to be more than coincidence. It also helps to know that even with the examples given, it is only now that mankind have weapons that can practically send humanity, as well as all the rest of our planet, back to prehistoric times. These WMDs are far more lethal, far more powerful, have greater ranges, than Saddam's (still unfounded) WMDs. I ask myself this question, ever since I began my search for the Anti-Christ. I've discounted almost every person pointed out by the media: Bin Laden, Saddam, etc. They just don't have the capability, the charisma, or the power to be such. Except one man, and that nation he commands. And is it any coincidence that that nation in question now holds Iraq, the very same nation where just a few miles from its capital lies the capital of an empire that in Revelation would be the rise of the Anti-Christ? It doesn't mean per se that the man will be born there, but it might be that his growth into power will be enhanced there. And what other nation now have the qualities of that harlot of Babylon, the same site where Iraq is now? I leave those things for people to reflect, and judge.

Oh for ****s sake.

So now Bush is the Antichrist.

Oh for ****s sake.

That's really about as much comment as that argument deserves I think.

Armegeddon as the Bible tells it is simply the final battle of a seven year period. The world will see seven years of war, famine, pestilence, and death before Armegeddon happens. That is if the Bible is true, which, by the way, I believe it is. So far nothing on that kind of a scale has happened. Besides if this was Armegeddon, surely Mathetais would have told us by now. :D

Joining in with Laches. Oh for ****s sake. This is so stupid. I don't believe in the bloody last battle and the Anti-Christ crap.

People die all the time.

Didn't want to offend anyone. If I did, sorry.

*trots off*

George W. Bush IS the Anti-Christ:

http://www.geocities.com/trebor_92627/Bush.htm

;)

Love that site, great music too...


About the topic at hand, I think the world has seen a bit worse than this! But we should really do more about the SARS problem. They claim to have it under control but new cases are popping up all the time. It's such a joke that they should even hesitate for a split second about "forced quartentines"! No, lets just tell them to fill out a little form, recommend that they see a doctor and let them go on their merry way infecting god knows how many people!

Erm, no. Just no.

I hereby recomend the book 'The Rapture' to those that are spouting about the end of the world, and even to those that aren't (its a good book :) )

There is very little chance that someone is going to screw up bad enough to destroy the world, and I don't believe that any entity known as Jesus is going to rock up and take everyone to Heaven. There is no real reason for the world to end at this point in time, at the moment to war is small, not enough fo a bunch of quite possibly non existant horsemen to ride out on.
Diseases and famines are nothing new, they happen all the time

Sarevok, in Singapore, they are imposing a $50,000 dollar fine on those who breach quarentine.

I'm talking about in the United States. Oh, and I'm not saying that no one is doing anything about it, infact I'm sure many countries are protecting us more than we are ourselves! It's just that on our cable news (CNN, Fox News, MSNBC) here they'll show about 5 hours of the same redundant war coverage for every 10 minutes about SARS. It's being pushed too far aside considering how much devastation it could cause if unchecked...

...SARS problem. They claim to have it under control ... Where did you hear that? I've been trying to follow this story fairly closely and the last thing I've heard is that they've identified the virus and they're working on a reliable diagnostic test that can be administered rapidly. There's still no cure, only symptom-relief. That's a FAR cry from being "under control."

My concern regarding SARS is that the virus is in the same family as the virus that causes the common cold. How much has modern abuse of antibiotics contributed to this disease?

As far as SARS being a sign of Armageddon, has anyone heard of AIDS? That's a far more widespread and dire disease, IMO. Put me squarely in the Laches-Eze camp on this one.

AIDS might be deadlier, but is not as easily transmitted as SARS. SARS could be the pestilence mentioned, since it transmits easily, is deadly, and as yet has no cure.

As for what I said, the set of questions I ask is more of a guide, but then it should help people out in determining who the Harlot and Anti-Christ are: which nation closely matches the harlot? Which one has all its marks: domination in politics, military, culture, religion, morals? The second question actually is the crux of it all: one would notice that no other nation has dominated the world in all aspects in history, until now. Fulfillment? But I also understand that it would be hard for those who live or abide with that nation to accept such a notion. I would be glad if we are not yet in the Last Days. I don't think most people would want to know we're in such times, not even those who say they're "prepared". If we aren't, then be glad, since we can still do much, and maybe even possibly avert a harsh judgment. But if we are in such times, then it's best we are prepared. But how can one be prepared if one is not willing to listen, and instead try to say that such and such is not possible?

The bubonic plague, which struck in A.D. 540, is justifiably the worst recorded pandemic to ever afflict humanity. Any hopes of reestablishing the Roman Empire were dashed. Records regarding the dimensions of the devastation and the untold suffering and death were carefully kept by Justinian's chief archivist and secretary, the celebrated court historian, Procopius.

If one considers the dimensions of the devastation of the bubonic plague of the 6th Century in the midst of the Dark Ages --- the savage imperial wars waged against the barbarian hordes, the terrible famines, the ubiquity of death and destruction, and finally the unleashing of this cataclysmic epidemic --- it should not be difficult to imagine that the people at the time believed that they were being scorched and ravaged by the dreaded Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, as described in the biblical book of Revelation 6:8, "And I looked, and behold, a pale horse; and his name that sat on him was Death."
The plague was killing 10,000 people a day at one point. During this same time, the Byzantine empire was waging a massive war of expansion.

Lets compare that to, oh say, a three week war and a 'plague' in SARS that has killed 132.

Now, in comparison, do you see how ridiculous the claim that the '4 horsemen are riding' is? You want to see real tragedy on a grand scale? Rather than try to force a preconceived idea onto current world events just open up a history book. Or, just take a look at Africa -- but that wouldn't fit into the story would it?

Laches, right now there is larger threat of the activation of WMDs, at any time any country can cause more death, and don't forget even more rising tensions between France and the US, Syria and the US, Germany and the US, Russia and the US, and North Korea and the US. So if anything happens to break out, it would make the Bytzintine period look like a school yard fight.

Also, SARS is just starting. We do not know yet if it will reach the extent of at least a small epidemic, but it looks like it is spreading quite rapidly. Its danger is that its symptoms are so much like that of the common fever that detection of it is not easy--quite the perfect epidemic to spread. And as pointed out, with the proliferation of WMDs in many countries, diseases not seen anymore, or even diseases never before seen, can still be spread. There are still as yet 2 horsemen not out: death and famine. Death in a large scale, which might be brought about by the presence of any, or all, of the three other horsemen. So, are we near or not? If we ask Fundamentalist Protestants, they will say we are, though it might be hard for many of them to accept that the very thing they are looking for--the harlot and Anti-Christ--might be under their very noses. For has it not been said that these will come as like someone who speaks of peace, but actually means war? Kind of like how someone now preaches that peace can be achieved through war...

If Armaggeddon is close because there is conflict in the Middle East, then Armaggeddon has been close for about, oh, 2000 frigging years! As was mentioned earlier, all 4 "horsemen" or markers of the Apocalypse have been around at all times (and not just in the Middle East) for, well, ever. If we were to plot on a graph the intensity of those markers, even with the present conflict in Iraq, I don't think that the line on the graph would be any higher than usual, and given the fact that SARS is not anything close to something like Bubonic plague, the Red Death, or even polio, I'd guess that the line would be even smaller for this one year period than it has been several times in the past.

So, as my final response on this thread, be worried about what happens in the Middle East and with SARS, but don't worry about Armageddon quite yet.

And like I have to repeat, though seemingly the four horsemen were abroad in times past, also it has to be noted that the ingredients of having a real Armaggedon then were not all in place. For instance, in those times past, did man have any weapon that can destroy any given place with such swiftness and intensity as he has now? Yes, the Bubonic Plague was lethal, and it decimated 1/4 of Europe, but its spread, compared to the nuclear arsenals we have now, was relatively slow. So too, that diseases now can be transmitted wider and faster through air travel. So, you can see now that we actually have a much greater chance of ending humanity as we know it now than all of the past 2000 or so years combined! And with such swiftness, with such great weapons, that it would come true that "the living would envy the dead", as we read in Revelation. The past 2000, or actually the whole history of humanity, has not seen such destructive weapons as we see now. Consider as well that, ironically enough, some diseases like tuberculosis is harder to cure now because of the very same medicines we have made, the virus actually becoming immune, or at least more resistant, then before. It does not help any, to again add and repeat, that the most powerful, most influential nation that ever existed now occupies the very same land which, in Revelation, is the site of the harlot. It is quite critical in the next few weeks or months how events will transpire. If any more war in the Middle East is made--then I leave that up for people to conclude. Has anyone not noticed that, unlike in Afghanistan, it seems there is some slowness in forming at least an interim government in Iraq? What does this all mean then?

Well I think I get the part about the red dragon and all,I think it means that America (might not be it, but is the first country that comes to mind) granted power to Iraq(the red dragon) which "swept" the other Middle Eastern countries(the fallen angels) into anti-americanism. However, the Antichrist may be terrorist groups or dangerous world powers.

Well I think I get the part about the red dragon and all,I think it means that America (might not be it, but is the first country that comes to mind) granted power to Iraq(the red dragon) which "swept" the other Middle Eastern countries(the fallen angels) into anti-americanism. However, the Antichrist may be terrorist groups or dangerous world powers.Might be, though if one were to look at how world events are unfolding, this does not appear to be so. One clue, other than Revelation, would be to read on Nostradamus. Nostradamus' writings on the Third World War and the Anti-Christ closely matches Revelation in many respects. The salient points of both are such: the Anti-Christ will take power or occupy the territory of Babylon, or present-day Iraq. The Anti-Christ has at his command such influence and power that nations look up to him in awe. The Anti-Christ has at his command as well the heads of nations. As we see events unfold, only one man and one nation fits all these descriptions. And by what happened recently, unless something else happens which might alter things, only one nation--and incidentally the most powerful nation on earth now--occupies that same place where Babylon was. Like I said, it is interesting what will happen in the next weeks or months, since it will either bolster more this view of who and what nation is being said which shall go against the holy ones of God, or this hypothesis of that nation will be proved wrong, and we are again back to searching who the Anti-Christ is. But then again, if indeed he has slowly unveiled himself now, would many believe? My fear, as again affirmed by Revelation, is that not many will believe, but indeed people will scoff at such a notion, until it is too late for most.

AIDS might be deadlier, but is not as easily transmitted as SARS. SARS could be the pestilence mentioned, since it transmits easily, is deadly, and as yet has no cure. Deadly?? The change SARS will be letal is 4%, that is as much as a common flu...

Oh and Nostardamus, how much of his predictions proved true, I read some books about him and had trouble finding a prediction that proved true..

Nostradamus' writings on the Third World War and the Anti-Christ closely matches Revelation in many respects Maybe he just read the bible :rolleyes:

and we are again back to searching who the Anti-Christ is I give you one, Nietzsche

[ April 20, 2003, 16:35: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

This is also being discussed like it's a new idea; all of the 'signs' have been 'in place' so many times throughout history that the chicken littles of the world prepare for the beginning of the end quite regularly. Even back as early as the crusades (and before) the idea of armageddon has been bandied about, and so far we're all alive and kicking. It's one of those things that's perfect for people who are extremely open to suggestion, and it's a lot like horoscopes; you can make the examples fit any scenario if you try hard enough. and really, if you believe in armageddon and the end of the world and the second coming of christ and all that, then you know well enough that what you believe isn't going to effect what is or isn't going to happen. So really there's no point in speculating. Besides, I think there's several verses in the latter half of the new testament that talk about it being a folly to try to guess or postulate or surmise when the second coming is.

Well SARS itself is not disturbing, but the prospect of some other viruses, that we have not encountered yet is. So really, I think SARS is just a herald to times that will come.

This is also being discussed like it's a new idea; all of the 'signs' have been 'in place' so many times throughout history that the chicken littles of the world prepare for the beginning of the end quite regularly. Even back as early as the crusades (and before) the idea of armageddon has been bandied about, and so far we're all alive and kicking.The difference now and then is that then WMDs, such as nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, were non-existent. What, end of the world can be brought about by an army weilding swords and shields, and half of that army decimated by the climate and disease even before it can reach its destination? Compare that with the weapons we now have...I think you can go into the conclusion on that point alone.

Y'know, just to clarify a bit, maybe three horsemen'll be at work during the Apocalypse, whenever that may be. Jesus is often interpreted as the one on the white horse.

In the Left Behind series, it was defined as conquest, possibly the Anti-Christ. So views differ.

As for all the "last battle and Anti-Christ" lies and feces, well, it's hard to discern when it's "just" happening and when it's happening because it's the end of the world.

[ April 21, 2003, 14:51: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

My friends are all so cynical
They refuse to keep the faith
We all enjoy the madness
Cuz we know we're gonna fade away
We got stars directing our fate
And we're praying it's not too late
Cuz we know we're falling from grace
Millennium

We got stars directing our fate
And we're praying it's not too late
Cuz we know we're falling from grace
Millennium

And when we come we always come too late
I often think that we were born to hate
Get up and see the sarcasm in my eyes
And when we come we always come too late
I often think that we were born to hateA. I don't belive in the bible anyway

B. The world hasn't got to end to be real bad place. The four hoursemen alone riding is bad enough. Bottom line: Maybe in some parts of the World they now got real reason to be worried, it's going to be their turn and that the four Horsmen and espacially the Mongols come knocking on their door.

[ April 21, 2003, 15:45: Message edited by: Yago ]

Dragon's Jewel makes a very good point. Even Christ himself does not know the time of His return. God alone does, and it is not for us to try and determine.

Umm...C'Jakob, in Revelations, the horseman on the white horse is Pestilence. The other guy on the white horse leading the heavenly army is called King of Kings, so yeh it's Jesus.

Agreeing with Laches and Eze.

Sure, bring on the Armageddon. Bruce Wills went that way.

(Who, me, cynic?)

Tarsakh - if you are talking about the horseman in Revelations 6:2, I do not see how that relates to pestilence. Might the Anti-Christ (conquering materially, and having a crown to represent success), or Christ (conquering through, say, belief, faith, etc., and having a crown to represent being King of Kings).

I never said Pestilence had a crown did I? He has a scale. And Pstilence also rides upon a white horse.

Any who, I did some more research, and the apocalypse would happen like this:

The sun will darken and the moon turned to blood (Joel 2:31)

The sky "rolled" up and the stars fell (Isiah 34)

Earthquakes and floods (Isiah 24:18, 19)

The undoing of God's creations (Gen 1, Jer 4:23)

There are also other parts in Isa 34:4, Daniel 11:32, 33 and 2Peter 2.

There are also more passages in: Gen 3,4,and 19, Gen 1:2 (NRSV only), Dan 7:2, 2Esd 13:2.

However all this is put together in Revelations.

I never said that you were wrong about the White Horseman not having a crown. I just don't see anything that relates to pestilience. According to the Bible I have, the Black Horseman holds a balance (scales), and represents famine. I'm pretty sure you can also interpret as pestilence, as they are a bit of the same thing, though.

LMAO at Latches posts. Lighten up.

I do believe in the Armageddon but I don't believe that anyone in the current media (Bush included) falls into the category of Mr 666. Its entertaining reading though

[ April 27, 2003, 17:03: Message edited by: Astin X ]

Well, I think that either Saddam or Bush is the Antichrist.

Heh. I'd say Saddam's way too out of power (and never will be in it again) to be the "Beast". As for Bush, I think people are a bit too wary of him. I'd say it's the one we least suspect the least (that is, if you believe in it or not, heh).

Could very well be the Ned Flanders next door to you. ;)

I'd say it's the one we least suspect the least Yourself? ;)

Though it is true that no one shall know the day nor the hour, it does not mean we're not given clues when it will happen. Meaning, we're given time to prepare. The exact time is not known, but certainly as we see in the Bible, we are given signs of that coming time. As for the 4 Horsemen:

At the opening of four seals, four horses appear. Their colour is white, black, red, and sallow, or green (chloros, piebald), They signify conquest, slaughter, dearth and death. The vision is taken from Zach., vi, 1-8It's taken here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

And Revelations!

Iraq having anything to do with Armageddon? Please.

If you do believe in Armageddon, don't forget it is ISRAEL that is the scene of the conflict, and the protagonist as well.

The four horsemen ride sequentially, not together. But I won't get too involved in interpretation of Revelations, since nobody will like it much anyway.

To be specific, its Mount Carmel, which although is in Israel, is also pretty damn close to to Baghdad. And don't forget the ten kings that will rise and fall within one hour, so the new ruler of Iraq will rise and fall in a short time, while he proclaims his alligience with the Anti-christ.