I think it must be tax time for most of us, and I'm sure I'm not the only one bubbling with invective over my tax forms. The poll is just for fun, although it would be nice to use the results as hard, statistical data proving that pain and suffering are caused by taxes. Maybe we could sue our governments, or something. :D

More seriously, I'm hoping to spark some discussion about taxes. We all complain about them, but very few of us do anything about them. Does that mean that, deep down, we feel they're fair? Or are we just to lazy to figure out what the modern equivalent of dumping tea in the harbour would be?

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 19 user(s) have voted.

Poll Results: What's more horrifying - death or taxes? (19 votes.)

What's more horrifying - death or taxes? (Choose 1)
* Death. I love to give my money to the government! - 16% (3)
* Death. I cheat on my taxes and laugh at you honest suckers. - 5% (1)
* Taxes. What a waste of time and money. - 32% (6)
* What's the difference? I'm being taxed to death! - 47% (9)

You know, Sprite, Death seems to me to be a peaceful concept -- I'm kind of like Hamlet in that way "'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished!"

I don't do anything about taxes, though, because I know they are a necessary part of Canadian life -- I have running water, heat, protected rights, etc. I may object to the high rate, or poor usage of the funds once they're collected, but as a concept, taxes are OK. I'd rather pay taxes and live here bthan be starving but not have to pay them, KWIM?

I have no problem at all with taxes as long as I get something for it. I see no difference between for example paying for my school with taxes or paying it in a tuiton. Same thing different names, it is like that with most things. Taxes are a good way to make sure that all citizens have a decent standard of living.

I have to admit that I tend to view people that really dislike taxes as incredible selfish even if I know it is a broad generalisation.

"To live is Christ, to die is gain" ...

that being said, I voted for taxes.

I'm looking forward to residing in my real country, where my treasure is already laid up and is not destroyed by rust, moths or democrats! :lol: :good:

The taxes I've paid are invested in the streets I walk and drive on, the schools I went to, the policeman that protects me, the hospital I maybe need to go someday, the public-transport system, the nuclear-power reactors, the water-system, the purification plant, the preservation of our countryside etc...

Taxes are just as annoying as every other bill I have to pay.

Taxes are more annoying than most bills, as annoying as some, but never less annoying. The basic premise behind taxes is that the government needs your money to operate. That's fine. The problem arises when we see what the government is operating. I've said it before, so it will not come as a suprise to anyone, that I am mostly a Libertarian. In that regard, I believe that the government should provide the following: police, courts, the army (and other appropriate national defense), basic infrastructure (roads, etc., because, even though this technically could and should be privately done, in today's day and age it just wouldn't work) and that's it!

It is my opinion that government should not be involved with such items as health care, schools, people's investments (i.e., social security) and the plethora of other social programs that exist. If anything, 9/11 showed that Americans can and will be charitable. Why should the government tell me where my charity is going?

In short, the size of the tax bill and the usurpation of my will that is involved with it ticks me off. Death, however, is not a reasonable alternative.

Definitely death for me given that a large part of my job is to either prepare tax return or prepare financial statements that will be used for tax returns. If it were not for taxes I would probably be out of a job so I guess you can say that I am actually somewhat fond of taxation. :lol:

Working over 300 hours of overtime in four months can be a bit of a pain but it certainly boosts the old bank balance.

Hm, only two more weeks of hell to go before tax season is over and I can relax! :D

What burns my butt about taxes is when they are misused -- I like good roads, a police force that keeps order and peace, good schools and hospitals, etc. A few years ago it was discovered that some so-called artist had gotten government money to put up a display. The display? A bunch of dead rabbits decomposing in his yard. That does absolutely no good to anyone, yet my taxes paid for it. THAT sort of stupidity just infuriates me. I even wrote a letter. IMHO, that money would have done much more good either a) in the hands of the taxpayers or b) put to public service use, like a new police or medical helicopter.

I like good roads, a police force that keeps order and peace, good schools and hospitals, etc. Depaara, I'm totally with you. Well, I don't personally think that the government should own schools or hospitals - I support a voucher system, like food stamps, for those who can't afford school or health care - but I'm not particularly heated about it. All of those things are good investments rather than an abuse of government power.

But sheesh, the way the government hemorrhages money, you'd think it grew on trees! Milton Friedman, I think it was, postulated that there are several ways to spend money:
1) You spend your own money on yourself - you drive a hard bargain but don't sacrifice quality.
2) You spend your own money on someone else - the bargain is more important than the quality.
3) You spend other people's money on yourself - you buy whatever your heart desires and don't look at the price tag.
4) You spend other people's money on other people - who cares about quality or price?

The problem with government spending is that it all falls under categories (3) and (4). So Canada, for example, spends billions of dollars to end up with a military that consists of three flying squirrels and a canoe, a failed healthcare system, and arts funding apparently distributed by drawing straws.

I just calculated that we paid nearly $60,000 in taxes this year, including income, small business, land transfer, and property tax. This doesn't include the 15% provincial and federal taxes on all purchases. When I think what I could have done with that money... and how much healthier the economy would be if I was spending it instead of flushing it down the Revenue Canada toilet... I want to scream! Or rant on SP, at the very least. :D

It's not the taxes I pay that bugs me. It's the politicians.

Back in 1776, all the way up to the the first few years of the 1900's, politicians were the guys (no ladies, yet! =) on the scene.

They didn't tell their aid "check the polls". They looked at it, and made the best decision they could. When class let out for recess, they headed back to their home state, and talked to as many people as they could. Just to keep up with current events in their state.

The people that were doing the popular vote, for better or for worse, were choosing a personality and mentality. A chimpanzee can check the polls. Back in the days, there wasn't time to check the polls. It took at least a week just to send out flyers for a dinner, much less get people to raise their hands aye. The politicians were responsible for their own judgement, for better or for worse, for re-election or for retirement.

It's changed.

And I don't like the new system. I'm not saying don't check the polls, I'm just saying that we need to start putting our politicians in for one single term. Figure, 5 or 6 years. No more; that's all you get.

Yeah, it sucks. Because you have a whole bunch of new kids in there all the time, and the learning curve is really, really steep. But it's come to that, and I blame myself and everyone else in history for letting it come to this.

If you make the office of Governor or President immune to the restriction, then you get a bunch of people whinning about fairness and whats the difference. So across the board, everyone gets their chance at the spotlight.

It's not the taxes, it's how it's spent. And don't ever forget, social security is still worth over $1 trillion per year. A terabyte is a fairly large amount; I truely have no idea just how much a trillion dollars is.

My father in law has an interesting perspective on paying taxes. He looks at his annual tax bill as a sign that he's doing well financially. As a retiree, if he didn't have INCOME, he wouldn't have to pay INCOME TAX!

Personally, I don't mind paying for the government to provide essential services, but I do agree with DMC that the scope of what's considered "essential" has to be pared way back.

The other problem I have with taxes is that they're such an exercise in hypocrisy. The Earned Income Tax Credit gives you a refund on tax money that you didn't pay in the first place. There are uncountable ways to "adjust" your income so that some moneys aren't ever taxed - but just try to collect an inheritance (upon which tax has already been paid by the grantor) without paying tax on it! So it's OK to tax some people twice but others not at all? Come on!

There has to be something wrong with a tax system that's to complex for the average high school graduate to understand.

He, He, about politicans wasting tax-money. There's been a big issue about a specific right-wing party in my country, that put billions in the drain.

They got slaughterd in the elections and one of their leading members moved to South-Africa :D

A few years ago it was discovered that some so-called artist had gotten government money to put up a display. The display? A bunch of dead rabbits decomposing in his yard. That does absolutely no good to anyone, yet my taxes paid for it Actually they were displayed in the woods out back of a university and the artistic "merit" was that the rabbits had messages written on slips of paper stuffed inside them that would be revealed when the rabbit's flesh rotted away. Personally I thought that this was horrible and that the "artist" should have been charged with indecency to the body of a dead animal but apparently there is no such charge under the Canadian legal code.

Fortunately, our idiotic government only contributed a relatively small amount towards this project, well at least compared to their million dollar purchase of that painting of a red strip on a white canvas. :rolleyes:

Personally, I agree with Sprite as to the reasons behind the governments spending and although there have been some improvements over the last decade in how well the government spend our money there is still an awful lot of waste in the system.

Of course our tax assessment system is just plain out to lunch as well. I have seen so many absurd court decisions with regards to taxation that almost nothing surprises me anymore.

For example the courts recently decided that if you sell your business for a profit you would have to pay tax on the gain but if you reduc the amount of the sale and collect part of the profit as compensation for agreeing not to compete against the new owner then that amount would not be taxable. Since then, guess how informed people are drawing up the docuemntation for the sale of their businesses? :rolleyes:

Drats!
Math! I wanted to say that:
To live is Christ, to die is gain.

So I'll just come with an other, heh?
Well, take this:

Death has been swallowed up in victory.
Where, oh death, is your victory?
Where, oh death, is your sting?

Sprite wrote:

Milton Friedman, I think it was, postulated that there are several ways to spend money:
1) You spend your own money on yourself - you drive a hard bargain but don't sacrifice quality.
2) You spend your own money on someone else - the bargain is more important than the quality.
3) You spend other people's money on yourself - you buy whatever your heart desires and don't look at the price tag.
4) You spend other people's money on other people - who cares about quality or price? Sprite, those 4 rules of Milton Friedman are correct, but you applied them wrong.

Paying taxes is rule 2:

2) You spend your own money on someone else - the bargain is more important than the quality.

That's why tax-laws are such a terrible mess like JSBB described them. There is no branch in the law, which rules are so confusing, self-contradicting, unequal and full of loopholes. The quality of those laws is the worst. When it's about taxes, everyone tries to make a hard bargain. That's why Microsoft wants to pay taxes in Bermuda.

Spending taxes is rule 3:

3) You spend other people's money on yourself - you buy whatever your heart desires and don't look at the price tag.

People want the best education for their own children, the best highways, so car-driving becomes a pleasure, they want that the sea's are clean so they can swim in them.Now, goverment works this way. It's evident when you're actually deciding over the budget yourself at the town-hall. :D

And rule 4 comes only into play, because the way the state works is inefficient. Now, goverments in centralistic countries like France, Germany, UK or the USA are 95 % Monarchy and 5 % Democracy. Their systems are very inefficient. :angel:

They could try democracy. :p

[ April 19, 2003, 21:03: Message edited by: Yago ]

I must confess I couldn't answer the poll at all since these are the only two things which we cannot avoid.

Deat as a natural course of life, taxes as a natural course of a democracy.

Neither horrifies me in any way therefore since they are unavoidable.

The only real argument there is to be had about taxation refers to how much and how to spend it. Well, I pay in direct taxation some 13-14k (£'s) per annum. Lots of money, sure, and as a single guy (not married at least) with no children etc, I certainly get very little back. Is that bad?

I have no problem with it personally. My taxes pay for a lot of things society needs. Sure there is wastage, but as long as the intentions are reasonable ie, education, health service (remember we have a free health system in the UK), defence - though I think the amount of money spent pre-emptively recently could perhaps have been better spent, roads and other infrastructure, libraries, etc, etc, etc, well where is the problem? As Joq said, it's really just another way of paying for the same things.

Some things have to be provided centrally, others you can debate. However, by as Sprite suggested, having for example a voucher scheme for health and education you will effectively ensure that what is provided to less well off people is second class. Some things do not come cheap, but it is in everyones best interest that everyone has access to a good education.

Thus, taxation holds no fear for me, death will happen. I try to enjoy the parts of life that I can before then with the money I have left after taxation. :)